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Post by Nnelg on Dec 1, 2013 5:34:42 GMT
I dislike this entire 'Romance' plotline, as I feel it's usurping the 'Mystery'/'Fantasy' that got me engaged with the comic in the first place. It hurts that Renard's speech in the last page or two sounds like the author preaching using his character as a mouthpiece. Fair enough, this is a pretty sudden intrusion into the plot. It was set in motion a half a dozen chapter ago and took until now to come to a head, though. That's the problem, though. If it only were one chapter, it wouldn't be so bad. Such a trend bodes ill for the direction the comic is headed in... |
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Post by Señor Goose on Dec 1, 2013 5:37:27 GMT
Fair enough, this is a pretty sudden intrusion into the plot. It was set in motion a half a dozen chapter ago and took until now to come to a head, though. That's the problem, though. If it only were one chapter, it wouldn't be so bad. Such a trend bodes ill for the direction the comic is headed in... Regardless, it's Tom's comic and where it goes is ultimately up to him. |
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Post by warrl on Dec 1, 2013 8:36:10 GMT
As far as I understand, Tom began portraying Kat's struggle with her sexuality as soon as she became aware of it herself - in Faraway Morning. Even though for much of the time we cannot see into Kat's head, and her motives are ambiguous, we can tell that she is uncomfortable and struggling with her identity and others' perceptions of her, even though she is not the main character or the focus for many of these chapters. Before Faraway Morning, her feelings for Paz or other not men were likely subconscious, or she was otherwise not focused on them. That's the point: before Faraday Morning there were not any hints about something that would have become an important part of the story. It just all starts after the awkard dialogue with Paz, and the way she becomes aware of it it's absurd (just because Paz thinks she is a lesbian). Even if those were subconscious we should must have been in some way able to guess that. Instead, being her an extrovert girl (so not so difficult to read like Annie) we had only hints of her being just (and a lot) interested in boys. Kat was not struggling with the issue, until she became aware of it. Tom showing us the struggle would not have made sense before that struggle actually started. (You want earlier hints that something is going on subconsciously? Would you have guessed that Kat would know where the animal-care facility is, that Paz worked there, and what hours Paz would be expected to be there? *All* of that? I wouldn't.) And it wasn't Paz thinking Kat was a lesbian. It was Paz putting the concept into Kat's mind at a conscious level. Kat wasn't uncomfortable around Paz for the next few weeks because of what Kat thought was in Paz's head; she was actually uncomfortable with what was in Kat's head. She didn't abruptly become enthusiastic about being Annie's roommate to prove to Paz that she's not into girls; it was to prove to herself that she wasn't into Paz. (That's my interpretation anyway.) Similarly, very few people other than Kat would know why Kat suddenly started wearing the headband. It was an attempt to convince people that Kat is a normal girly girl - but the only person that COULD be convinced AND would NEED to be convinced, is Kat. (It doesn't help that Kat has never been a normal girly girl.) We're talking about roughly-14-year-old kids here, too. Somewhere about that age (varying from person to person) is when kids first start to deal with massive quantities of rampaging sex hormones. They don't know what they are dealing with, they don't understand what they are feeling. They are confused, and being dragged around somewhat by body parts they were barely even aware they had a short time earlier in their lives. Yes, the changes sometimes happen rather abruptly. Even the readily-visible physical changes can happen surprisingly fast (two cup sizes in two days, in one instance I know of), let alone the mental emotional and psychological changes that can be concealed or even un-self-recognized for a time and then suddenly appear - seemingly out of nowhere with no warning - fully developed. |
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Post by philman on Dec 1, 2013 13:17:41 GMT
Look everyone: PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT.
Some people realise they are gay from a young age and are never into members of the other sex
Some people like people heterosexually for a little bit, then realise they are actually gay and were overcompensating when younger
Some people like people heterosexually for a little bit, then realise they also like people of the same sex, and so become bisexual
Some people have mixtures of all these, some people discover things about themselves earlier or later.
Kat is STILL ONLY 14! in western culture everyone is assumed straight until shown otherwise, likewise I assume most children assume they are straight when growing up, just because that is what they are surrounded by on TV, in games, etc. Only when they start growing up, and hitting puberty like Kat and Annie presumably only just have in the last year or so, do some of them realise they might like their own gender as well/instead.
Coming out as gay when you are only 14 is still very young age to do it...
The point that the relationship is eating into the fantasy/robots story. I can sort of understand that, I don't want this to become a teenage romance story either. But so far this is the only chapter fully dedicated to the pazkat romance. All other points in the azKat romance have been side-stories of only a few pages in the middle, or at the end of other chapters. So I assume it is going to stay similar to that in the future.
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Post by snipertom on Dec 1, 2013 14:11:23 GMT
Look everyone: PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. Some people realise they are gay from a young age and are never into members of the other sex Some people like people heterosexually for a little bit, then realise they are actually gay and were overcompensating when younger Some people like people heterosexually for a little bit, then realise they also like people of the same sex, and so become bisexual Some people have mixtures of all these, some people discover things about themselves earlier or later. Kat is STILL ONLY 14! in western culture everyone is assumed straight until shown otherwise, likewise I assume most children assume they are straight when growing up, just because that is what they are surrounded by on TV, in games, etc. Only when they start growing up, and hitting puberty like Kat and Annie presumably only just have in the last year or so, do some of them realise they might like their own gender as well/instead. Coming out as gay when you are only 14 is still very young age to do it... The point that the relationship is eating into the fantasy/robots story. I can sort of understand that, I don't want this to become a teenage romance story either. But so far this is the only chapter fully dedicated to the pazkat romance. All other points in the PazKat romance have been side-stories of only a few pages in the middle, or at the end of other chapters. So I assume it is going to stay similar to that in the future. Agreed- and it would have been completely bizarre to just kind of skip over the issue, IMO. And it's just 1 chapter out of 40+. Plus, Tom has indicated previously that this is relevant to the overarching story and I don't think he means in the "suddenly GKC turns into a romance anime" way. |
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Post by Nnelg on Dec 1, 2013 15:52:30 GMT
That's the problem, though. If it only were one chapter, it wouldn't be so bad. Such a trend bodes ill for the direction the comic is headed in... Regardless, it's Tom's comic and where it goes is ultimately up to him. Of course. But Tom has different tastes than I, I'm afraid... |
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Post by The Anarch on Dec 1, 2013 16:27:09 GMT
I am down with the romance angles, myself. Life continues to happen, even when you're having amazing fantasy adventures and building an entirely new species of robotic organisms.
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Post by Lightice on Dec 1, 2013 17:21:03 GMT
]Of course. But Tom has different tastes than I, I'm afraid... The comic wasn't tailored for your specific tastes. Not everybody can like every storyarc or characterisation. Personally I find the balance perfectly acceptable; I would be upset if the entire comic turned into teen romance drama, but so far I've seen no kind of sign of that happening. This is a comic about teenagers, however, so completely ignoring the subject of romance would be rather dishonest, as well. I honestly don't mind the subject brought up every once in awhile as long as it doesn't consume other plotlines altogether. Though in terms of commentary, there's always a massive upsurge whenever the romantic subplots are being dealt with, especially the one that happens to be gay. It looks like it produces a lot more emotional response in the audience, both positive and negative, than any of the supernatural drama, ironically enough. From the comments' section and the forum you could almost assume that this is a teen romance drama comic. |
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chaosvii
Junior Member
I absolutely did not expect this!
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Post by chaosvii on Dec 1, 2013 19:02:40 GMT
I also think it's not a super huge deal for a young girl who admires men to decide she also likes girls. Kat is 14 and it's normal to discover new things about yourself when you are 14, even later. And it's not like realizing you like girls is a huge personality change or something, it's just discovering a facet of yourself that's been latent previously. There aren't always going to be a ton of hints about somebody's sexuality when they are still children. I don't think it's necessary that we should be able to guess that she's not straight before she can, especially since she's not the main character and the majority of the chapters focus on Annie, and are even from her perspective. (This comic is actually not mainly about Kat's sexuality, even though it may feel that way during this chapter.) Tom didn't want to let on that she wasn't straight until more recently, and I think he did what was right for the story. I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on. I don't think it's a huge deal too (nor something that should change someone's personality), but I don't think a discovery like that can be so fast (it never happened to her to find a girl interesting before?) and, more importantly, it can start in that way. If, instead, it can be something totally new (she just "start liking girls while not liking them before", but I don't know if that is even possible, at least if now she is a 3 or more on Kinsey Scale) still how this part of the plot starts is absurd, to the point that it makes everything strange. If she just started to notice girls it would have been ok, but that she starts questioning her sexuality after someone else did it (because someone else did it) it's, from my point of view, bad writing. Of course she could be generally interested in boys and maybe (if it's not just a "I was not sure" thing) Paz is an "exception" (Kat is a 1 or at max a 2, 1 being more suitable). Her being just interested in girls or more in girls than boys it would not have any sense now, that's what I'm saying. Alright, given the amount of unstated assumptions you have which I neither share with you nor can easily identify the word of the day is: Why
Why do you think that a discovery like Kat's is fast? Like, what makes it fast? I see it as gradual, with points of punctuated equilibrium. Why do you think that the discovery can't be as fast as you perceive it to be? What do you think is the typical speed of sexual discovery for a person? What do you think is the acceptable rage of speed for a young teen-aged girl such as Kat? What makes it fast? Why do you find Kat's previous crushes on manly men & manly birds to be an indicator of increased interest in guys over gals? How does the whole "never kissed a boy" fit in to this perception? How does "totally kissed a girl and went back for more, and put off important things to both kiss that girl & later fantasize about how totally worth it blowing all that work to uselessness was for that kiss" fit for your position? Homosexuality or bisexuality doesn't need to have hints, there are men or women who realize their homosexuality after being married with the opposite sex Why don't you let stuff just happens ? Yes in this kind of work it needs it (if she is not a 1). Nobody "discovers it" after a lot of years (if it's an adult), they just accept it. Happening? What do you mean? That someone can wake up one morning and out of the blue discover that he or she likes a lot of people of his/her own sex without having any idea before? Why do you think that nobody "discovers it"? Like how does the process work such that "the way that people come to eventually understand & accept their attraction to other people" can never be called "discovery" in the context of how you define Kat's "discovery of attraction to girls"? This part strikes me as poorly worded, which is understandable given how crazy English is. But the disconnect that I see between you two is that Elysium is definitely not saying "out of the blue" so much as "crept up on them without them ever noticing because they dismissed the attraction as something else" as a partial explanation tying two things together: Real-life stories of sexual discovery (I don't know what other word to use) in adulthood with fictional stories of a girl trying to invent cyborg parts in an attempt to reverse engineer the genius of this roboticist in order to be their messiah or something and oh yeah there's this one girl that she likes smooching. Kat has more important things to do than investigate her budding romance, but said budding romance is a powerful motivator to learn things about it sometimes. Regarding the Ch1-33 context of lacking hints. I interpret this as Kat not seeing any indications of liking girls. From her perspective I figure her thoughts might be consistent with "I mean I hang out with one all the time and there's no attraction there so why should I think that I'm attracted to any girls ever?" I liken it to Paz's experience, she never considered it, but once she did, she couldn't dismiss it anymore, and now that there's this girl that maybe causing feelings, she's willing to see if those feelings lead to something great. If I were approached with the question, in my stable age of adolescence-is-over-yay, I'd say "Girls only, I have trouble imagining what dude would compare." without having to reconsider, as no dudes have ever really done it for me. But Paz & Kat have some new feelings out of apparently nowhere so they would answer something like "Guys. Wait maybe not just guys? I mean, dudes are clearly great and they have been for a long time, but there's this one girl... and she's comparable... I don't think I can explain it yet." When it comes to discovering one's sexuality during one's adolescence, life is strange. Liking dudes when you're 12 is no guarantee that you'll like dudes when you're 14, even though it works that way for most people, and liking girls when you're 12 doesn't preclude liking dudes more than girls (but still liking girls) by the time your hormones stop being so crazy. I'm afraid I can only offer anecdotes as support for this claim as I have never looked up a study that examines the adolescence of those people that fall into alphabet soup of sexuality that isn't called straight. Here's a convenient quote from earlier in this thread from an individual that self-identifies as a lady that likes ladies: So really all I can say for sure is that "making sense" and "strange" are things that completely dependent on experience (which I also think is a big theme of this comic), and I err on the side of an perspective that says "life contains more complexities" when simpler explanations don't fit well enough. Ok, but Kat being interested in girls and only in girls or girls more than boys is different to Paz being an/the "exception", and Kat having a "single target sexuality" (that I said, it would be possible). And "liking dudes before and than stop" it would be ok if it were just "crushes" (with no physical attraction), but otherwise for what I know it would be impossible. So in that case I think I agree with you, but not with Momo, at least not about the impossibility of Kat being straight. In fact: Kat being straight after all wouldn't make any sense. She has experienced physical and emotional attraction to at least one girl and therefore falls somewhere greater than 0 on the Kinsey scale. And I don't think you can count "crushes" (ie: Alistair) in the same category as actual physical relationships. For example: I had some furious crushes on guys in my preteens, but a little bit later when I tried kissing them I figured out pretty quickly that it did nothing for me. 1- They only kissed. 2- She was clearly attracted to boys and not just in a "platonic" way. To me, both possibilities are open. I know that everything is relative to experience, but I think here is more of a "how Kat was wrote until that arc" thing. 1- Yet this is more than that one hug she gave Alistar and the "nothing else" that has happened with other manly men & manly birds 2- She hasn't acted on those crushes past crush level (in the comic as of yet). So for all we know Kat could kiss a few dudes and be like "That's it? But I totally dig dudes more than this!" and be somewhere around 4 or 5 on the Kinsey scale. Or after an engagement in some bedroom antics with a randy gentleman Kat could think to herself "Man Paz does it better, but this was pretty great too" and be on the 3. I interpret that kiss with Paz to be counter-evidence for a 0 & X, but not much else. I don't see enough counter-evidence to probably eliminate a 6, but it wouldn't take much more than Kat actually doing something for me to argue against 6. I also feel it prudent to point out that you haven't really countered Momo's claims of "crushes & blushing during one's adolescence amounting to very little in terms of a person's sexuality" and how this applies to Kat. I don't know why you would think that what has happened in the story indicates anything more than crushes, what you linked is saying that she likes the dude aesthetic for some reason which while it obviously could be attraction beyond crush level, it doesn't say one way or the other. |
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Post by warrl on Dec 1, 2013 19:15:33 GMT
I don't want this to become a teenage romance story either. And it's important to recognize that, while probably most of us would agree to the above, it would be rather unrealistic for the amount of romance in the story to NOT increase at this stage in the kids' lives. And there should be more short-term romances (of course, they don't have to all, or even mostly, be on-screen). At this age, long-term romances are unusual. Janet and Willy, *and* John and Margo - both couples have been together for close to two years now. On the other hand, consider the group in question... we are aware of a fire-elemental hybrid, an animal-telepath, a technowizard, and a telekineticist (or maybe two) in *this* class and house. And this is not the house that the school puts the "strange" students (such as Gamma, Zimmy, and Shadow) in. As a character in another story once said, "Love at first second-sight, I can believe.". |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 1, 2013 19:38:14 GMT
And there should be more short-term romances (of course, they don't have to all, or even mostly, be on-screen). At this age, long-term romances are unusual. Janet and Willy, *and* John and Margo - both couples have been together for close to two years now. No, seriously no It would need a larger cast, unless you plan to make the relationships move within the actual group...which would bring nothing to the table except unwelcome drama. Besides Tom wants to go somewhere with each relationship, so just having short-term couple just for the hell of it would not only take screen time, but waste that screen time away. |
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Post by warrl on Dec 1, 2013 20:39:08 GMT
And there should be more short-term romances (of course, they don't have to all, or even mostly, be on-screen). At this age, long-term romances are unusual. Janet and Willy, *and* John and Margo - both couples have been together for close to two years now. No, seriously no It would need a larger cast, unless you plan to make the relationships move within the actual group... A significant share of it naturally would be within the group (the group being their class and house). They are in more contact with each other than with the other houses. Subtleties. Crowd scenes. People standing in hallways or sidewalks, or entering doorways, as the current-focus-character passes by. Never the focus, but occasionally present in the background. You'd actually have to track individual characters (or read the Cool things I only noticed on reread thread) to realize that the girl kissing this boy in the background this week was holding hands with that boy in the background last week, and that boy had had his arm around another girl's waist the week before. If Tom wants to do this, it wouldn't be hard. |
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Post by darklingthrush on Dec 1, 2013 22:37:44 GMT
Holy hell this thread is still going, and furthermore, has quadrupled in size since I last visited.
What have I done?
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Post by brightside on Dec 1, 2013 22:56:06 GMT
Zimmy and Gamma are not so strange when compared to fairies, mithological beings, people able to teleport or "create order where there was none" etc., even if they are heterosexual. The overwhelming majority of relationships being heterosexual is obvious, but it's just a realistic thing. Also she fell in love with a bird-boy (and was attracted by somone like muut) so why should she feel different about homo/bisexuality? Kat is used to a lot of strange things being portrayed as normal but she is not used to homosexuality being presented as normal. Otherwise she would not have angsted about it (with the headband) for the several chapters leading up to Paz asking her out. Zimmy and Gamma are strange even by court standards, and Zimmy has always been extremely rude to Kat. My impression is that Kat does not have a lot of access to portrayals of homosexuality as positive or normal. Yes but we have to consider it was still a "crisis" and she was not sure about what her relationship with Paz was, so her not talking about it it could also be explained as "I think it's better if I understand what's going on before talking to anyone". About Zimmy and Gamma I just think: in a place where everything is normal just sexuality is so strange? Why? Also the headband could have been simply her reacting as being misunderstood by Paz (and thinking it was because she was not a "typical girly girl"). In fact: Oh, poor Kat... Is this something everyone's been teasing her about lately?
Not really, but she's been thinking about why Paz would say something like that.^This is Tom's answer. chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=katAlso, we are talking about the "after34" part of the comic, the point is not here. Even if the hints were created to say "Kat likes girls" it would not change the situation (but if not, I called it first!). She was attracted to Aly before she realized he was a flipping bird. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with Muut, but blushing because there's suddenly a naked flipping muscular man chest a foot in front of your little girl face is different from being sexually attracted to someone. Kat's bird thing is often presented humorously. I don't think she was taking it all that seriously herself. Well, it's not only about that page, for example: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=337www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=872But she was not concerned about talking to Renard, for example. She was concerned about it though. She has been "keeping this secret for a while now". She's been going through this crisis for several months and hasn't told a soul, she's not even really opened up to Paz about it - until now. She kissed Paz, and it was great, a confirmation that her feelings were real and not something she was imagining. Furthermore, Annie saw her, so it's pretty much out whether she likes it or not. That's the point: before Faraday Morning there were not any hints about something that would have become an important part of the story. It just all starts after the awkard dialogue with Paz, and the way she becomes aware of it it's absurd (just because Paz thinks she is a lesbian). Even if those were subconscious we should must have been in some way able to guess that. Instead, being her an extrovert girl (so not so difficult to read like Annie) we had only hints of her being just (and a lot) interested in boys. You would probably think the story of my realizing I liked girls is absurd too. It's easy to assume you are straight when you are young, especially if everything around you reinforces it as normal. It is, in fact, super common to be in denial about the reality about your feelings towards someone if they contradict with your own idea of your sexuality. You can be almost entirely unaware of things until something forces you to confront it. It's not always this grand gradual realization. There's got to be something that flips a switch. Sometimes it's just a bigger or smaller switch that's flipped. I had a friend who thought he was straight until he was sixteen. He had crushes on girls, which he was relatively vocal about. He even had a girlfriend. She broke it off after a few months because he wasn't interested in touching her, but he never realized anything was wrong between them until she broke up with him. Other people in this thread have mentioned similar experiences. The point is "something forces you to confront it" and accept it is different to "something makes you think at something totally new", how it seems it happened in the comic. Your friend never had even a slight interest in boys? I mean, something that could make him say something like "I thought it was just curiosity/admiration/friendship, but if I think about it now everything becomes clear?" This thread was created by a gay guy that found that kind of strange, for example. Kat did not realize how her advances towards Paz had romantic overtones until Paz called her on it, because it hadn't occurred to her that her feelings for Paz could be anything other than the sort of relationship she'd had with girls in the past. I don't think that's absurd or unrealistic. I don't read her "advances" as having romantic overtones (she was just trying to console her), that's why she was so surprised by what Paz said! Also, why Paz realized it and Kat not? I don't think it's a huge deal too (nor something that should change someone's personality), but I don't think a discovery like that can be so fast (it never happened to her to find a girl interesting before?) and, more importantly, it can start in that way. If, instead, it can be something totally new (she just "start liking girls while not liking them before", but I don't know if that is even possible, at least if now she is a 3 or more on Kinsey Scale) still how this part of the plot starts is absurd, to the point that it makes everything strange. If she just started to notice girls it would have been ok, but that she starts questioning her sexuality after someone else did it (because someone else did it) it's, from my point of view, bad writing. Of course she could be generally interested in boys and maybe (if it's not just a "I was not sure" thing) Paz is an "exception" (Kat is a 1 or at max a 2, 1 being more suitable). Her being just interested in girls or more in girls than boys it would not have any sense now, that's what I'm saying. I don't know if there's much more I can say without repeating myself. I'm sure that there was a logical progression in Kat's head, but we were not shown it as it happened because she is not the main character. Tom will reveal things as he sees fit. He decided it was not important to foreshadow Kat's sexuality more than he did. When I go back and read through the comic, which I've done a lot in the past few weeks, I find that Kat's story can be consistent with sexuality narratives I've heard in the past, from real people, so I'm satisfied with it. Let me just reiterate that she is young. Things are still very new and confusing for her. Well with her being portrayed as "the opposite/complement" of Annie she is clearly a co-protagonist, also being this an important part of the plot now yes, I think Tom should have shown it. For the stories, again how were they before the "discovery" exactly? Well, queer characters are pretty common in comics now (webcomics of course, but also see Marvel comics and their young superheroes for an example), but that is not the point. The problem is that fusing two streotype-breaking types of characters does not makes a better one but the opposite, at least in this occasion. The lesbian-tomboy stereotype (I'm talking in general now, not about Kat) creates 2 prejudices: 1- People who are different from the "gender standards" can not be straight. 2- If (1) is right, hence queer people are someway "different" compared to heterosexual people in something that is not just sexuality. Both wrong, of course. Now, as I said, Kat being queer would not necessarily make the stereotype stronger for being a tomboy (because there are also lesbian/bi tomboys, of course), even if this page (What, Zimmy?) and the same idea of a +5 Headband of Straightness it doesn't help, but Kat being straight was breaking it. All right? I just don't think it's that important. I know a lot of real life queer people who challenge gender stereotypes and they are neat and I like seeing them represented. There's a lot more to these people than the stereotypes you're talking about, and I think Tom is portraying that with Kat. Straight women who do things that are considered to be in the male domain are portrayed in the media fairly often. Straight people of all sorts are flipping everywhere. There may be more queer characters in comics now than there have in the past, but that doesn't mean there's a lot of good queer representation in the media as a whole, especially in more mainstream works. Again, I said I don't think Kat was "only that". That was just an added value (and again, it doesn't matters inside the plot, exactly like having a queer character). Also almost every queer character is good, obviously (not necessarly well made or not stereotyped, of course, but that also it applies to the straight ones), today, and straight people being everywhere is just an effect of straight people being around 95% of population. But this still is not the point. Also... Yes in this kind of work it needs it (if she is not a 1). Nobody "discovers it" after a lot of years (if it's an adult), they just accept it. Happening? What do you mean? That someone can wake up one morning and out of the blue discover that he or she likes a lot of people of his/her own sex without having any idea before? Apparently I'm nobody then? I'm not sure if there's much else I can say to you. Ok, I think I have to ask you now (of course if it's just your business don't answer, and I'm sorry): You discovered being more interested in girls as an adult without having any doubt before? You never had any hints that would have become clearer after that? Any hints at all? You just stopped liking dudes after liking them before? I don't think it's a huge deal too (nor something that should change someone's personality), but I don't think a discovery like that can be so fast (it never happened to her to find a girl interesting before?) and, more importantly, it can start in that way. If, instead, it can be something totally new (she just "start liking girls while not liking them before", but I don't know if that is even possible, at least if now she is a 3 or more on Kinsey Scale) still how this part of the plot starts is absurd, to the point that it makes everything strange. If she just started to notice girls it would have been ok, but that she starts questioning her sexuality after someone else did it (because someone else did it) it's, from my point of view, bad writing. Of course she could be generally interested in boys and maybe (if it's not just a "I was not sure" thing) Paz is an "exception" (Kat is a 1 or at max a 2, 1 being more suitable). Her being just interested in girls or more in girls than boys it would not have any sense now, that's what I'm saying. Alright, given the amount of unstated assumptions you have which I neither share with you nor can easily identify the word of the day is: Why
Why do you think that a discovery like Kat's is fast? Like, what makes it fast? I see it as gradual, with points of punctuated equilibrium. Why do you think that the discovery can't be as fast as you perceive it to be? What do you think is the typical speed of sexual discovery for a person? What do you think is the acceptable rage of speed for a young teen-aged girl such as Kat? What makes it fast? Why do you find Kat's previous crushes on manly men & manly birds to be an indicator of increased interest in guys over gals? How does the whole "never kissed a boy" fit in to this perception? How does "totally kissed a girl and went back for more, and put off important things to both kiss that girl & later fantasize about how totally worth it blowing all that work to uselessness was for that kiss" fit for your position? ": She never had any interest for girls before even if her sexuality had started developing, so it's fast compared to her interest in boys. "What do you think is the typical speed of sexual discovery for a person?": Years, from the first sign of interest to someone to the "I know what I like" point. (not "accepting it", that could even take an istant). Why interest in dudes and interest in ladies should start with a lot of difference in time (and the second one after someone else questioned her sexuality?)? Why do you find Kat's previous crushes on manly men & manly birds to be an indicator of increased interest in guys over gals? Simply because those were over guys and not girls, and as you can see on the pages I linked above, not only romantic and platonic. How does "totally kissed a girl and went back for more, and put off important things to both kiss that girl & later fantasize about how totally worth it blowing all that work to uselessness was for that kiss" fit for your position? Not incompatible both with her being interested in boys but also in some girls/only Paz and with the phase/crush possibility (if her liking boys until now can be described as "just crushes" and irrelevant by you, so could it be a kiss in my opinion). Attraction to girls was only about Paz, when interest in boys was a general thing, so tecnically the "crush" is more probable in Paz's case. Yes in this kind of work it needs it (if she is not a 1). Nobody "discovers it" after a lot of years (if it's an adult), they just accept it. Happening? What do you mean? That someone can wake up one morning and out of the blue discover that he or she likes a lot of people of his/her own sex without having any idea before? Why do you think that nobody "discovers it"? Like how does the process work such that "the way that people come to eventually understand & accept their attraction to other people" can never be called "discovery" in the context of how you define Kat's "discovery of attraction to girls"? This part strikes me as poorly worded, which is understandable given how crazy English is. But the disconnect that I see between you two is that Elysium is definitely not saying "out of the blue" so much as "crept up on them without them ever noticing because they dismissed the attraction as something else" as a partial explanation tying two things together: Real-life stories of sexual discovery (I don't know what other word to use) in adulthood with fictional stories of a girl trying to invent cyborg parts in an attempt to reverse engineer the genius of this roboticist in order to be their messiah or something and oh yeah there's this one girl that she likes smooching. Kat has more important things to do than investigate her budding romance, but said budding romance is a powerful motivator to learn things about it sometimes. Ok, I made a mess here (yes, my English is still awful, I know sorry). I don't think that someone discovers it as "I was straight before, I'm gay now", but you can just discover something that, in reality, was always a part of you (and you just never accepted it). If you are an adult even more (not even "still developing" excuse here). I was referring to this when replying to Elysium, because I understood from his sentence that he thought the first one was possible (" Homosexuality or bisexuality doesn't need to have hints."). He started talking about "adults", it wasn't me. Of course the romance thing is not the most important one in Kat's life or part in the plot, but this thread is about that and so we are just talking about that. Kat dismissing it as something else could have been ok if it just worked for her (she convincing herself that she doen't likes girls, but we can still see that she is lying). Ok, but Kat being interested in girls and only in girls or girls more than boys is different to Paz being an/the "exception", and Kat having a "single target sexuality" (that I said, it would be possible). And "liking dudes before and than stop" it would be ok if it were just "crushes" (with no physical attraction), but otherwise for what I know it would be impossible. So in that case I think I agree with you, but not with Momo, at least not about the impossibility of Kat being straight. In fact: 1- They only kissed. 2- She was clearly attracted to boys and not just in a "platonic" way. To me, both possibilities are open. I know that everything is relative to experience, but I think here is more of a "how Kat was wrote until that arc" thing. 1- Yet this is more than that one hug she gave Alistar and the "nothing else" that has happened with other manly men & manly birds 2- She hasn't acted on those crushes past crush level (in the comic as of yet). So for all we know Kat could kiss a few dudes and be like "That's it? But I totally dig dudes more than this!" and be somewhere around 4 or 5 on the Kinsey scale. Or after an engagement in some bedroom antics with a randy gentleman Kat could think to herself "Man Paz does it better, but this was pretty great too" and be on the 3. I interpret that kiss with Paz to be counter-evidence for a 0 & X, but not much else. I don't see enough counter-evidence to probably eliminate a 6, but it wouldn't take much more than Kat actually doing something for me to argue against 6. I also feel it prudent to point out that you haven't really countered Momo's claims of "crushes & blushing during one's adolescence amounting to very little in terms of a person's sexuality" and how this applies to Kat. I don't know why you would think that what has happened in the story indicates anything more than crushes, what you linked is saying that she likes the dude aesthetic for some reason which while it obviously could be attraction beyond crush level, it doesn't say one way or the other. And what other reason do you think it could have been behind that? She was interested in boys ( in general) but then discovers that this interest was only from a totally non-sexual point of view? Ok that reality is unrealistic and all, but like in real life that would seem strange, in fiction it would seem strange and forced. About her being a 3, a 4 or a 5 on the Scale, than why she never felt anything for any girl before Paz? |
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Post by Gotolei on Dec 1, 2013 23:08:40 GMT
Holy hell this thread is still going, and furthermore, has quadrupled in size since I last visited. What have I done? I don't even know  but the posts don't stop from getting bigger.. Guess you found a sore spot for some people though, some seem to be registering just to argue in this one thread  |
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Post by brightside on Dec 1, 2013 23:09:35 GMT
That's the point: before Faraday Morning there were not any hints about something that would have become an important part of the story. It just all starts after the awkard dialogue with Paz, and the way she becomes aware of it it's absurd (just because Paz thinks she is a lesbian). Even if those were subconscious we should must have been in some way able to guess that. Instead, being her an extrovert girl (so not so difficult to read like Annie) we had only hints of her being just (and a lot) interested in boys. Kat was not struggling with the issue, until she became aware of it. Tom showing us the struggle would not have made sense before that struggle actually started. (You want earlier hints that something is going on subconsciously? Would you have guessed that Kat would know where the animal-care facility is, that Paz worked there, and what hours Paz would be expected to be there? *All* of that? I wouldn't.) And it wasn't Paz thinking Kat was a lesbian. It was Paz putting the concept into Kat's mind at a conscious level. Kat wasn't uncomfortable around Paz for the next few weeks because of what Kat thought was in Paz's head; she was actually uncomfortable with what was in Kat's head. She didn't abruptly become enthusiastic about being Annie's roommate to prove to Paz that she's not into girls; it was to prove to herself that she wasn't into Paz. (That's my interpretation anyway.) Similarly, very few people other than Kat would know why Kat suddenly started wearing the headband. It was an attempt to convince people that Kat is a normal girly girl - but the only person that COULD be convinced AND would NEED to be convinced, is Kat. (It doesn't help that Kat has never been a normal girly girl.) We're talking about roughly-14-year-old kids here, too. Somewhere about that age (varying from person to person) is when kids first start to deal with massive quantities of rampaging sex hormones. They don't know what they are dealing with, they don't understand what they are feeling. They are confused, and being dragged around somewhat by body parts they were barely even aware they had a short time earlier in their lives. Yes, the changes sometimes happen rather abruptly. Even the readily-visible physical changes can happen surprisingly fast (two cup sizes in two days, in one instance I know of), let alone the mental emotional and psychological changes that can be concealed or even un-self-recognized for a time and then suddenly appear - seemingly out of nowhere with no warning - fully developed. Well if it's an important thing like that yes, I think we should have hints (even very little, but clear). About why she became enthusiastic about being Annie's roommate, well, it could be both (it'not so clear to me). About the hormones I think it would have been ok if she just started being attracted to girls without being attracted to guys before, but if the "I start noticing other people in a sexual way" phase it happened a lot of time before (like it seems to me), well, the situation is different. |
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Post by freeformline on Dec 2, 2013 1:24:23 GMT
Holy hell this thread is still going, and furthermore, has quadrupled in size since I last visited. What have I done? I don't even know but the posts don't stop from getting bigger.. Guess you found a sore spot for some people though, some seem to be registering just to argue in this one thread No kidding. You asked people's opinions on a topic closely related to one of the largest political and religious debates currently embroiling the world. I'd be surprised if it were any milder! |
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Post by warrl on Dec 2, 2013 1:49:28 GMT
Well if it's an important thing like that yes, I think we should have hints (even very little, but clear). Clear hints? The people going through that situation themselves don't necessarily get clear hints, and when they do figure things out often try to hide it. Which means other people are even less likely to get clear hints. Little girls are attracted to the idea of romance. When they aren't in a "boys have cooties" stage they normally envision their romance involving a boy (or just as likely a man, who is rather too old for them) because hetero is the most commonly seen sort of romance both in real life and in fiction. (Side note: being sexually abused in childhood could seriously mess this up in ways I won't attempt to guess and have no information to analyze.) The converse is similarly true of little boys, by the way. Then when they are mugged by hormones it's a MUCH different situation. Instead of being attracted to an idea of romance, they are attracted to a person (or several people). Maybe hetero, maybe not. The choice of person is based on their own desires, not on what society portrays as normal. However, people don't readily consider possibilities that they haven't been made aware are possibilities. A girl who hasn't been much aware of the existence of romantic/sexual attraction between women, would have a tough time recognizing that attraction within herself. An outside prod, such as Paz's statement in Faraway Morning, might get her started on it. But then she has to examine her feelings, decide for herself if that's what's going on, convince herself that it's okay for her to feel that way, and so on. THEN she gets into the same puzzle that plagues a lot of kids that age: finding out how the person they're attracted to feels about them. (Fortunately for Kat, Paz took the initiative on that. Twice.) Why does one person go through this before another? Different timing of the awakening hormones. Different cultural exposures. Differences in how accustomed they are to introspection and therefore how fast they get through that stage. Lots of reasons. |
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lit
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Post by lit on Dec 2, 2013 5:37:14 GMT
Yes but we have to consider it was still a "crisis" and she was not sure about what her relationship with Paz was, so her not talking about it it could also be explained as "I think it's better if I understand what's going on before talking to anyone". About Zimmy and Gamma I just think: in a place where everything is normal just sexuality is so strange? Why? Also the headband could have been simply her reacting as being misunderstood by Paz (and thinking it was because she was not a "typical girly girl"). In fact: Oh, poor Kat... Is this something everyone's been teasing her about lately?
Not really, but she's been thinking about why Paz would say something like that.^This is Tom's answer. chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=katAlso, we are talking about the "after34" part of the comic, the point is not here. Even if the hints were created to say "Kat likes girls" it would not change the situation (but if not, I called it first!). I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Oh right, because she was definitely being totally serious both of those times. The point is "something forces you to confront it" and accept it is different to "something makes you think at something totally new", how it seems it happened in the comic. Your friend never had even a slight interest in boys? I mean, something that could make him say something like "I thought it was just curiosity/admiration/friendship, but if I think about it now everything becomes clear?" That line you're describing can be blurrier than you think. It's easy to have an "interest" in a friend but dismiss it as platonic, which is what I'm assuming Kat had done on a subconscious level until Paz forced her to confront it in Faraway Morning. I admit I can't speak to that level of knowledge as to my friend's epiphany. It wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy, it was just meant to show an example of someone who was unaware of something fairly crucial pertaining to their sexuality until it was pointed out to them. I don't read her "advances" as having romantic overtones (she was just trying to console her), that's why she was so surprised by what Paz said! Also, why Paz realized it and Kat not? Paz seemed to. I figured since they've been hanging out together to take care of City Face, Paz might have noticed something in Kat's body language or tone of voice or behavior that indicated to her that Kat had some feelings, even if Kat at that point assumed they were just platonic. Well with her being portrayed as "the opposite/complement" of Annie she is clearly a co-protagonist, also being this an important part of the plot now yes, I think Tom should have shown it. I don't agree that she is "clearly a co-protagonist". This is the first chapter that has really focused on her in a while. Most of the chapters focus on Annie, and seem to be from her point of view. Occasionally not, but mostly. She is an important character, but she is not the main character, and she is not on equal footing with Annie as far as the narrative goes. For the stories, again how were they before the "discovery" exactly? I'm guessing you mean the queer narratives I referenced, but your question seems kind of vague. Again, I said I don't think Kat was "only that". That was just an added value (and again, it doesn't matters inside the plot, exactly like having a queer character). Also almost every queer character is good, obviously (not necessarly well made or not stereotyped, of course, but that also it applies to the straight ones), today, and straight people being everywhere is just an effect of straight people being around 95% of population. But this still is not the point. What is the point? Also... Apparently I'm nobody then? I'm not sure if there's much else I can say to you. Ok, I think I have to ask you now (of course if it's just your business don't answer, and I'm sorry): You discovered being more interested in girls as an adult without having any doubt before? You never had any hints that would have become clearer after that? Any hints at all? You just stopped liking dudes after liking them before? I don't feel terribly comfortable going into it here, but long story short that's how it went. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Dec 2, 2013 5:44:16 GMT
Well if it's an important thing like that yes, I think we should have hints (even very little, but clear). About why she became enthusiastic about being Annie's roommate, well, it could be both (it'not so clear to me). About the hormones I think it would have been ok if she just started being attracted to girls without being attracted to guys before, but if the "I start noticing other people in a sexual way" phase it happened a lot of time before (like it seems to me), well, the situation is different. I don't think attraction to girls has to be shown. Look at this page. Kat's a little confused, but Paz is cool, and she thinks Kat's great. Unless Kat was firmly hetero (and knew it), it would be extremely hard to say no to so much positive interest. Plus, Paz doesn't ask for a large commitment, but for some dates so they can see what happens. Hells yeah. I think Kat is in the midst of discovering she likes girls (or at least Paz) because sometimes you have to try something to know how you feel about it. Holy hell this thread is still going, and furthermore, has quadrupled in size since I last visited. What have I done?  |
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Post by GK Sierra on Dec 2, 2013 5:52:46 GMT
Holy hell this thread is still going, and furthermore, has quadrupled in size since I last visited. What have I done? Made a useful thread for a discussion that needed to be had. Congrats. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Dec 2, 2013 6:41:03 GMT
Well if it's an important thing like that yes, I think we should have hints (even very little, but clear). About why she became enthusiastic about being Annie's roommate, well, it could be both (it'not so clear to me). About the hormones I think it would have been ok if she just started being attracted to girls without being attracted to guys before, but if the "I start noticing other people in a sexual way" phase it happened a lot of time before (like it seems to me), well, the situation is different. I don't think attraction to girls has to be shown. Look at this page. Kat's a little confused, but Paz is cool, and she thinks Kat's great. Unless Kat was firmly hetero (and knew it), it would be extremely hard to say no to so much positive interest. Plus, Paz doesn't ask for a large commitment, but for some dates so they can see what happens. Hells yeah. I think Kat is in the midst of discovering she likes girls (or at least Paz) because sometimes you have to try something to know how you feel about it. ^ This. I don't really understand what more needs to be said. The page you quoted and the page that follows ( 1201 and 1202) really explain it all. Kat was uncertain, but realized she really liked Paz as a friend, maybe more, and was willing to take a chance to find out what that meant. And it turned out well. |
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Post by Gulby on Dec 2, 2013 7:35:20 GMT
On the suddenness about how you feel around same sex, I will share what I've lived : no hints at all. Oh, unless we're talking about that guy or that girl that threw me an insult at the elementary school : "sale gouine" (= dirty dike). I was like, 10 or 11 ? And when I came home, I asked "What does it mean ?" to my mom. She explained that in the world, some people may fall in love with persons of the same sex. At that moment, I remember I felt uncomfortable with the idea. 't was almost gross to me. (But as the hetero kisses was, so...) Then, later, around 15, I tried to ask myself that, if I wasn't able to find a man who loves me, maybe that meant that I was a lesbian (yeah, things was messed up in my head at that time). Or destined to be a nun (I was catholic at that time, too). But it was a real pain for me to consider that option. Why ? What had I done to deserve such thing ?... (I was a bit homophobic. A lot of prejudices, none were true, education what have you done !) When I was 16, hormones took the control. I felt attracted mostly at men, probably because I didn't want to be attracted at women. But, at the mall, someday, a couple of women crossed my way and one of them looked at my t-shirt (that said something like "women take the control", didn't choose it, it was a gift, but I liked it !  ) and, with a strange ambiguous glance, and a large smile, told me something as : "oh, how cute, that's for me ?..." Maybe she was only referring to the feminist message. Maybe it was sarcasm. But I remember very well how red and hot my face went. And the fantasies that came across my mind for a few days after. Since that, I tried to reconsider what I really was. Hetero ? Lesbian ?... All of that seemed wrong. Couldn't be lesbian, I felt in love with guys and wanted to make sex with one someday. Hetero ? Nah, I was way too embarrassed around girls, and tend to look at their breasts too much, and... That was a real issue. Then, I discovered bisexuality. And that label did fit exactly on what I felt about. After that, I did look back on my life and considered some anecdotes that, once I did came out to myself, was hints. Like when, in elementary school, I couldn't stand to be put aside by a female "friend" who was rejecting me and playing with me ("if you want us to be friend, you should have straighten hair", "you should wear a dress", "why are you wearing a dress, you bitchy snob", "your hair should be more curly"...) when we were at school, but when I came to her home, she was nice and we played ambiguous role games (not the classic doctor and patient, but something like that). I think that it was my first crush on a lady, but back then, the very idea of being not-hetero wasn't a thing in my head. So... Like some other people said, it can be tough to realize that you're not hetero, especially when you live in a world that consider being non-hetero as a bad thing, or at least, abnormal. Once something or someone has put the idea in you, no matter how, that you COULD be gay or bi, or anything else than hetero, then, it's like you thought your window was black but instead, it was only dirty and once you clean it, you can see a whole new world outside. Sorry for my english, I'm tired and, well, sorry if what I've said just here is of no interest to anyone or to the point. :/ |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Dec 2, 2013 7:42:49 GMT
On the suddenness about how you feel around same sex, I will share what I've lived : no hints at all. Oh, unless we're talking about that guy or that girl that threw me an insult at the elementary school : "sale gouine" (= dirty dike). I was like, 10 or 11 ? And when I came home, I asked "What does it mean ?" to my mom. She explained that in the world, some people may fall in love with persons of the same sex. At that moment, I remember I felt uncomfortable with the idea. 't was almost gross to me. (But as the hetero kisses was, so...) Then, later, around 15, I tried to ask myself that, if I wasn't able to find a man who loves me, maybe that meant that I was a lesbian (yeah, things was messed up in my head at that time). Or destined to be a nun (I was catholic at that time, too). But it was a real pain for me to consider that option. Why ? What had I done to deserve such thing ?... (I was a bit homophobic. A lot of prejudices, none were true, education what have you done !) When I was 16, hormones take the control. I felt attracted mostly at men, probably because I didn't want to be attracted at women. But, at the mall, someday, a couple of women crossed my way and one of them looked at my t-shirt (that said something like "women take the control", didn't choose it, it was a gift, but I liked it ! ) and, with a strange ambiguous glance, and a large smile, told me something as : "oh, how cute, that's for me ?..." Maybe she was only referring to the feminist message. Maybe it was sarcasm. But I remember very well how red and hot my face went. And the fantasies that came across my mind for a few days after. Since that, I tried to reconsider what I really was. Hetero ? Lesbian ?... All of that seemed wrong. Couldn't be lesbian, I felt in love with guys and wanted to make sex with one someday. Hetero ? Nah, I was way too embarrassed around girls, and tend to look at their breasts too much, and... That was a real issue. Then, I discovered bisexuality. And that label did fit exactly on what I felt about. After that, I did look back on my life and considered some anecdotes that, once I did came out to myself, was hints. Like when, in elementary school, I couldn't stand to be put aside by a female "friend" who was rejecting me and playing with me ("if you want us to be friend, you should have straighten hair", "you should wear a dress", "why are you wearing a dress, you bitchy snob", "your hair should me more curly"...) when we were at school, but when I came to her home, she was nice and we played ambiguous role games (not the classic doctor and patient, but something like that). I think that it was my first crush on a lady, but back then, the very idea of being not-hetero wasn't a thing in my head. So... Like some other people said, it can be tough to realize that you're not hetero, especially when you live in a world that consider being non-hetero as a bad thing, or at least, abnormal. Once something or someone has put the idea in you, no matter how, that you COULD be gay or bi, or anything else than hetero, then, it's like you thought your window was black but instead, it was only dirty and once you clean it, you can see a whole new world outside. Sorry for my english, I'm tired and, well, sorry if what I've said just here is of no interest to anyone or to the point. :/ That was beautiful my friend, and very well said. Thank you for sharing. |
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Post by philman on Dec 2, 2013 9:05:28 GMT
Sorry for my english, I'm tired and, well, sorry if what I've said just here is of no interest to anyone or to the point. :/ No need to be sorry. I think a lot of people make assumptions over how 'being gay' comes about. Based either on their experience (forgetting that everyone is different) or based on movies (which are not the best way to understand any relationships, hetero OR homo...) |
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chaosvii
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I absolutely did not expect this!
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Post by chaosvii on Dec 2, 2013 23:09:50 GMT
There has been talk of over-representation (I will withhold my opinions that you can't really over-represent the under-represented-- oh wait, never mind, I just released it!) and agenda pushing, but think about this: what if Mr. Siddell is gay? Or bisexual? Or perhaps has a close loved one that is? Or it simply is a topic that is close to his heart? Maybe good representation is important to him for bigger reasons than we know. People are assuming that he is doing this for Cool Points, or to be political... but how do we know? We don't! lace they love! I agree. The only things that I can say with certainty about why Tom is incorporating these story elements the way that he is so far are: That Tom has a story to tell, and this is what helps him tell it. If it weren't then the story would be hindered and he'd display an inability to tell us what he didn't know.That Tom sees his characters in a conflict worth sharing, in that this conflict says something important about who they were and who they become. The events ought be more important than that one time Annie did something boring, nothing came of it, and nobody read about it. Do we as readers learn something new? Do the characters eventually change and grow in any direction in a way clearly related to the events in question? If so then plot! |
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Post by fronzel on Dec 3, 2013 7:41:58 GMT
There has been talk of over-representation (I will withhold my opinions that you can't really over-represent the under-represented-- Of course it's possible. In this case, homosexuality isn't a particularly common trait and for a lot of characters to exhibit it without there being some reason for it (some reason the cast is composed of gay characters, say), then it beggars belief. It would be like too many characters sharing a hobby by coincidence rather than being in a hobbyist club together. At four apparent lesbians, I wouldn't say Gunnerkrigg Court has this problem, but such a thing is possible. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Dec 3, 2013 18:28:40 GMT
I hope it's not too offensive that I made an account just to toss in my two cents... but it is nice that this turn of events has brought me out of my "silent observer" shell ("lurk" just sounds so menacing!) I also should apologize for bringing up pages-old arguments, but it was quite a task reading through all 16 pages and lining up my thoughts! With that being said... There has been talk of over-representation (I will withhold my opinions that you can't really over-represent the under-represented-- oh wait, never mind, I just released it!) and agenda pushing, but think about this: what if Mr. Siddell is gay? Or bisexual? Or perhaps has a close loved one that is? Or it simply is a topic that is close to his heart? Maybe good representation is important to him for bigger reasons than we know. People are assuming that he is doing this for Cool Points, or to be political... but how do we know? We don't! I felt like I had many things to say, but the words aren't coming out now that I know they'll be released into the internet wilds. I guess I will end this by saying kudos to the forumgoers on the homosexual or bisexual side of the spectrum that are handling this ugliness so well. I'm a sensitive type that would be hurt beyond repair by some of the opinions flung around about something this personal, so it's nice to see people not being scared away from a place they love! We're a tough lot. (In the sense that we're all made out of pink gelatin, so insults pass right through us.) Also I know for a fact Tom isn't gay. Unless he's really great at faking it to his girlfriend, which I doubt. |
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lit
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Post by lit on Dec 4, 2013 3:54:09 GMT
Also I know for a fact Tom isn't gay. Unless he's really great at faking it to his girlfriend, which I doubt. Well, sure, we can speculate about whom he is and isn't attracted to, and we can assume that his attraction to his partner is likely sincere, but we can't know Tom's sexuality for a fact unless he's told us. And um. It's not like that's really our business anyway. ^^ |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Dec 4, 2013 4:06:35 GMT
Also I know for a fact Tom isn't gay. Unless he's really great at faking it to his girlfriend, which I doubt. Well, sure, we can speculate about whom he is and isn't attracted to, and we can assume that his attraction to his partner is likely sincere, but we can't know Tom's sexuality for a fact unless he's told us. And um. It's not like that's really our business anyway. ^^ Yeah, as turbulent as this thread has been, I don't mind at all discussing "How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?" as the title of the thread says. Kat is a fictional character. Tom is a real person with his own very real private life and I doubt he would appreciate it. |
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but the posts don't stop from getting bigger..
) and, with a strange ambiguous glance, and a large smile, told me something as : "oh, how cute, that's for me ?..."