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Post by GK Sierra on Dec 4, 2013 6:12:40 GMT
Also I know for a fact Tom isn't gay. Unless he's really great at faking it to his girlfriend, which I doubt. Well, sure, we can speculate about whom he is and isn't attracted to, and we can assume that his attraction to his partner is likely sincere, but we can't know Tom's sexuality for a fact unless he's told us. And um. It's not like that's really our business anyway. ^^ It's none of our business, you're right. But gay men usually do not have girlfriends unless they are in deep cover mode. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Dec 4, 2013 6:19:17 GMT
SO HOW 'BOUT THAT KAT? TWO THUMBS UP AM I RIGHT?
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Post by GK Sierra on Dec 4, 2013 6:25:41 GMT
SO HOW 'BOUT THAT KAT? TWO THUMBS UP AM I RIGHT? Two thumbs WAY up. Couldn't have happened to a cuter lesbian. |
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Post by snipertom on Dec 4, 2013 10:43:03 GMT
Yeah honestly I'd got to the point in this thread that heck I'm not afraid to say how I really feel anymore
Q: How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?
A: Friggin' awesome.
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Post by freeformline on Dec 4, 2013 10:55:15 GMT
Anyone taking bets on how much longer this thread will go? It seems like it might be slowing down some (I hope).
To answer the question, I'm pretty neutral about Kat's sexuality, just like I would if I knew her as a real person. I am, however, strongly in support of her sexuality being whatever Tom pleases, because he has done a good job making it believable. The only things I oppose here are narrow-minded mean people and flame wars. Please don't start a flame war about the value of flame wars.
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Post by jasmijn on Dec 4, 2013 22:21:15 GMT
Wew, this thread is long. I wanted to sum up my feelings, but freeformline did so perfectly 11 hours ago.
Oh, and I think it is a good idea to over-represent otherwise under-represented minorities, both for the benefit of the minority (because representation has obvious psychological and practical advantages), and for the benefit of the majority (because a big part of becoming a mature, well-rounded adult is realizing that not everyone is like you (or fits inside neat little boxes) and that's okay). You need over-representation instead of proportionate representation because 1) most of our media is likely to forget about minorities anyway, because people are lazy or something 2) proportionate representation might actually mean that there is no (visible) representation, because not all stories can be told in a certain space.
Anyway, I'll shut up now, because I'm getting tired and rambly.
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Post by zimmyzims on Dec 4, 2013 22:45:28 GMT
]Of course. But Tom has different tastes than I, I'm afraid... The comic wasn't tailored for your specific tastes. Not everybody can like every storyarc or characterisation. Personally I find the balance perfectly acceptable; I would be upset if the entire comic turned into teen romance drama, but so far I've seen no kind of sign of that happening. This is a comic about teenagers, however, so completely ignoring the subject of romance would be rather dishonest, as well. I honestly don't mind the subject brought up every once in awhile as long as it doesn't consume other plotlines altogether. Though in terms of commentary, there's always a massive upsurge whenever the romantic subplots are being dealt with, especially the one that happens to be gay. It looks like it produces a lot more emotional response in the audience, both positive and negative, than any of the supernatural drama, ironically enough. From the comments' section and the forum you could almost assume that this is a teen romance drama comic. In any event, there has already been romance here and there throughout the comic. It's not as if it only came to GKC when Kat got a girlfriend. Kat herself has been in middle of all kind of romantic scenery before. That she has a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend doesn't suddenly turn the comic into "romance anime". That's just people uncomfortable with gays lying to themselves. |
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Post by brightside on Dec 5, 2013 6:16:02 GMT
Everyone knows what time is it? It's WALL OF TEXT TIME AGAIN! (Sorry for the delay, I'm really really busy in those days) Well if it's an important thing like that yes, I think we should have hints (even very little, but clear). Clear hints? The people going through that situation themselves don't necessarily get clear hints, and when they do figure things out often try to hide it. Which means other people are even less likely to get clear hints. Ok, let's start again, probably I was not so clear. Maybe it's just my idea of "writing" but well, better to try explaining it: In a mistery story, you have to give hints. Clear, very subtle or nearly invisible hints, but hints that after you read the "end" should make you say "gosh golly how could I have not understood it, it's OBVIOUS now!" For that reason, writing a mistery (even a little one) should be done thinking (from the beginning) how about to make that guessing difficult but not impossible. For example, not putting important opposite hints that could block you. That's because it's easy to create surprise by doing something totally unexpected, but if you do it by creating opposite hints it's bad writing. You can't create half of the plot saying one thing, the other half saying the opposite and then say "hey, the first one is not important!". No, just no. Even using something that it's very unlikely to happen in real life and almost everyone doesn't think it could even happen at all it's not a good choice. Kat's discovery of her sexuality is not a Sherlock Holmes book but it's still a mistery, so it should/it should had abide/abided by this guidelines. It doesn't matter if no one inside the story realizes something, we are not watching the world from their eyes. In this webcomic we watch the court and the forest from a third-person point of view, that makes us see things about the characters even if they are alone, or they are just thinking about something. For example, we saw a lot of hints about Kat liking Paz (even if not "could it be only that" hints) after chapter 34, so the sub-plot was written with a "let's people guess it" intention. Now, why then before chap. 34 it should have been different instead? If we have that degree of closeness with a character, that can not change for convenience, and only for some characteristics (we can have hints about Kat liking boys, but not about her liking girls even if it is in the same degree of closeness?). Kat is not a "very enigmatic character" so we see her extrovert character (involontary pun) and passions always clearly. With, for just some reason, the exemption of this one. Again: if you are creating a sub-plot in a mistery-like writing style you can not make everything end with something that it could have been impossible to deduct or even simply guess. Little girls are attracted to the idea of romance. When they aren't in a "boys have cooties" stage they normally envision their romance involving a boy (or just as likely a man, who is rather too old for them) because hetero is the most commonly seen sort of romance both in real life and in fiction. (Side note: being sexually abused in childhood could seriously mess this up in ways I won't attempt to guess and have no information to analyze.) The converse is similarly true of little boys, by the way. Then when they are mugged by hormones it's a MUCH different situation. Instead of being attracted to an idea of romance, they are attracted to a person (or several people). Maybe hetero, maybe not. The choice of person is based on their own desires, not on what society portrays as normal. However, people don't readily consider possibilities that they haven't been made aware are possibilities. A girl who hasn't been much aware of the existence of romantic/sexual attraction between women, would have a tough time recognizing that attraction within herself. An outside prod, such as Paz's statement in Faraway Morning, might get her started on it. But then she has to examine her feelings, decide for herself if that's what's going on, convince herself that it's okay for her to feel that way, and so on. THEN she gets into the same puzzle that plagues a lot of kids that age: finding out how the person they're attracted to feels about them. (Fortunately for Kat, Paz took the initiative on that. Twice.) Why does one person go through this before another? Different timing of the awakening hormones. Different cultural exposures. Differences in how accustomed they are to introspection and therefore how fast they get through that stage. Lots of reasons. Yes, but as I said the pre-34 chapters made us see Kat as interested to boys, and not just in a romantic way. So let's say she was "mugged by hormones" even then. My dubt is about "boys-are-hot hormones" awakening a lot before "girls-are-hot hormones" and then disappearing. Yes but we have to consider it was still a "crisis" and she was not sure about what her relationship with Paz was, so her not talking about it it could also be explained as "I think it's better if I understand what's going on before talking to anyone". About Zimmy and Gamma I just think: in a place where everything is normal just sexuality is so strange? Why? Also the headband could have been simply her reacting as being misunderstood by Paz (and thinking it was because she was not a "typical girly girl"). In fact: Oh, poor Kat... Is this something everyone's been teasing her about lately?
Not really, but she's been thinking about why Paz would say something like that.^This is Tom's answer. chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=katAlso, we are talking about the "after34" part of the comic, the point is not here. Even if the hints were created to say "Kat likes girls" it would not change the situation (but if not, I called it first!). I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you talking about the bold part? I was saying: Hints after chapter 34 could be interpreted in another way (she was just self-conscious abot her appearence), and if we will discover that Kat in reality is hetero or a 1 on Kinsey Scale everything would still make sense and if everything turns out like this and my interpretation is right, I said it first then everyone (it was a joke). If instead Kat is a 3 or more and those hints are "Kat likes girls in general and no, Paz is not even just the exeption or one of the few exemptions" hints, that would be in contrast with the pre-34 part of the comic and so a writing gaffe for everything I wrote above. Oh right, because she was definitely being totally serious both of those times. What did you expected her to say if she for sure liked boys? Why she should have done any kind of comment like that with someone like Annie that doen't care at all if she was not interested at all? I mean, if Annie never did any comment, why Kat did it then? She didn't need to prove anything! The point is "something forces you to confront it" and accept it is different to "something makes you think at something totally new", how it seems it happened in the comic. Your friend never had even a slight interest in boys? I mean, something that could make him say something like "I thought it was just curiosity/admiration/friendship, but if I think about it now everything becomes clear?" That line you're describing can be blurrier than you think. It's easy to have an "interest" in a friend but dismiss it as platonic, which is what I'm assuming Kat had done on a subconscious level until Paz forced her to confront it in Faraway Morning. I admit I can't speak to that level of knowledge as to my friend's epiphany. It wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy, it was just meant to show an example of someone who was unaware of something fairly crucial pertaining to their sexuality until it was pointed out to them. Ok, but your analogy could have been a argument to my position or an argument to yours, that's why I asked. Also, Kat being so surprised it's a sign of something totally unespected. Something so big, even if in a subconscious level, I think it would have created a different effect. I don't read her "advances" as having romantic overtones (she was just trying to console her), that's why she was so surprised by what Paz said! Also, why Paz realized it and Kat not? Paz seemed to. I figured since they've been hanging out together to take care of City Face, Paz might have noticed something in Kat's body language or tone of voice or behavior that indicated to her that Kat had some feelings, even if Kat at that point assumed they were just platonic. Or maybe Paz just interpreted in a wrong way a compliment that was done to console someone that was (kind of) rejected by a guy. Well with her being portrayed as "the opposite/complement" of Annie she is clearly a co-protagonist, also being this an important part of the plot now yes, I think Tom should have shown it. I don't agree that she is "clearly a co-protagonist". This is the first chapter that has really focused on her in a while. Most of the chapters focus on Annie, and seem to be from her point of view. Occasionally not, but mostly. She is an important character, but she is not the main character, and she is not on equal footing with Annie as far as the narrative goes. What about all the "angel of the robots" part of the plot? Or the fact that, inside the court, almost all the time that something great happens they are together? Even in the covers they are "the two parts of the same medal"! www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1165For the stories, again how were they before the "discovery" exactly? I'm guessing you mean the queer narratives I referenced, but your question seems kind of vague. Yes, it was about your narratives. Well, you just responded. Again, I said I don't think Kat was "only that". That was just an added value (and again, it doesn't matters inside the plot, exactly like having a queer character). Also almost every queer character is good, obviously (not necessarly well made or not stereotyped, of course, but that also it applies to the straight ones), today, and straight people being everywhere is just an effect of straight people being around 95% of population. But this still is not the point. What is the point? About the point. I have to make a little resume, it seems. The name of this thread is: How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?My answer (in short): I don't like it because: 1- It would be an incoherence with a big part of the plot and 2-Personally I liked her ALSO for being a stereotype-breaking character. In the same post I wrote:
"And someone can be interested in a social issue without wanting to see it always and everywhere, especially if that could mean a loss of quality in a work of art and EVEN MORE if it's preaching (BTW I don't think Tom has become a preacher, but maybe he was influenced by what's happening in other webcomics)."But if that was not sufficiently clear in another post I repeated again that " Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not)." Just to make everyone know that for me it was just a personal thing and an added quality that could maybe be important only for me in the world, but for me it was a cool thing (and that thread was exactly about "what do you feel"). I never said that that stereotype-breaking quality was the only one of Kat (also because it's irrelevant inside the plot, or it's irrelevant now at least) but it seems that someone (Elysium in particular, but maybe you too) just projected and assumed that without any reason. I responded making it clear but then you wrote this: All right? I just don't think it's that important. I know a lot of real life queer people who challenge gender stereotypes and they are neat and I like seeing them represented. There's a lot more to these people than the stereotypes you're talking about, and I think Tom is portraying that with Kat.Straight women who do things that are considered to be in the male domain are portrayed in the media fairly often. Straight people of all sorts are flipping everywhere. There may be more queer characters in comics now than there have in the past, but that doesn't mean there's a lot of good queer representation in the media as a whole, especially in more mainstream works. The point was: why are you still assuming that for me Kat is just a stereotype? Or do you think that "Queer people that challenge gender stereotypes" are just all walking stereotypes for me? No, they are people like everyone else. "Queer people that challenge gender stereotypes" in fiction are stereotypes, because majority of queer people was (and still is, even if less) depicted like that. And characters that are "Queer people that challenge gender stereotypes" can be stereotyped charactes from that point of view, but of course they could have still their qualities and their differences. The "not the point" part was the one about the number of good queer characters in fiction. Ok, I think I have to ask you now (of course if it's just your business don't answer, and I'm sorry): You discovered being more interested in girls as an adult without having any doubt before? You never had any hints that would have become clearer after that? Any hints at all? You just stopped liking dudes after liking them before? I don't feel terribly comfortable going into it here, but long story short that's how it went. So you just stopped liking boys even if you were sexually attracted by them before as an adult? Well ok, sorry about the nobody then, I just never knew about a story like yours, and I thought it was impossible. But I think you have to admit it's something that happens very very rarely (even for queer people), so from a storywriting point of view it would still seem kind of lazy. On the suddenness about how you feel around same sex, I will share what I've lived : no hints at all. Oh, unless we're talking about that guy or that girl that threw me an insult at the elementary school : "sale gouine" (= dirty dike). I was like, 10 or 11 ? And when I came home, I asked "What does it mean ?" to my mom. She explained that in the world, some people may fall in love with persons of the same sex. At that moment, I remember I felt uncomfortable with the idea. 't was almost gross to me. (But as the hetero kisses was, so...) Then, later, around 15, I tried to ask myself that, if I wasn't able to find a man who loves me, maybe that meant that I was a lesbian (yeah, things was messed up in my head at that time). Or destined to be a nun (I was catholic at that time, too). But it was a real pain for me to consider that option. Why ? What had I done to deserve such thing ?... (I was a bit homophobic. A lot of prejudices, none were true, education what have you done !) When I was 16, hormones took the control. I felt attracted mostly at men, probably because I didn't want to be attracted at women. But, at the mall, someday, a couple of women crossed my way and one of them looked at my t-shirt (that said something like "women take the control", didn't choose it, it was a gift, but I liked it !  ) and, with a strange ambiguous glance, and a large smile, told me something as : "oh, how cute, that's for me ?..." Maybe she was only referring to the feminist message. Maybe it was sarcasm. But I remember very well how red and hot my face went. And the fantasies that came across my mind for a few days after. Since that, I tried to reconsider what I really was. Hetero ? Lesbian ?... All of that seemed wrong. Couldn't be lesbian, I felt in love with guys and wanted to make sex with one someday. Hetero ? Nah, I was way too embarrassed around girls, and tend to look at their breasts too much, and... That was a real issue. Then, I discovered bisexuality. And that label did fit exactly on what I felt about. After that, I did look back on my life and considered some anecdotes that, once I did came out to myself, was hints. Like when, in elementary school, I couldn't stand to be put aside by a female "friend" who was rejecting me and playing with me ("if you want us to be friend, you should have straighten hair", "you should wear a dress", "why are you wearing a dress, you bitchy snob", "your hair should be more curly"...) when we were at school, but when I came to her home, she was nice and we played ambiguous role games (not the classic doctor and patient, but something like that). I think that it was my first crush on a lady, but back then, the very idea of being not-hetero wasn't a thing in my head. So... Like some other people said, it can be tough to realize that you're not hetero, especially when you live in a world that consider being non-hetero as a bad thing, or at least, abnormal. Once something or someone has put the idea in you, no matter how, that you COULD be gay or bi, or anything else than hetero, then, it's like you thought your window was black but instead, it was only dirty and once you clean it, you can see a whole new world outside. Sorry for my english, I'm tired and, well, sorry if what I've said just here is of no interest to anyone or to the point. :/ Oh well, thank you for your story. But why do you wrote that there were no hints at all and then that some anecdotes were hints once you accepted your bisexuality? I don't understand it, sorry. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Dec 5, 2013 6:35:07 GMT
Wow, I know I just shouldn't engage at all, but I have to say this: I don't feel terribly comfortable going into it here, but long story short that's how it went. So you just stopped liking boys even if you were sexually attracted by them before as an adult? Well ok, sorry about the nobody then, I just never knew about a story like yours, and I thought it was impossible. But I think you have to admit it's something that happens very very rarely (even for queer people), so from a storywriting point of view it would still seem kind of lazy. When a member says they don't feel comfortable talking about something, Drop It. You cross a line if you push on a personal issue after someone says no. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Dec 5, 2013 7:10:45 GMT
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Post by GK Sierra on Dec 5, 2013 7:36:08 GMT
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Post by zimmyzims on Dec 5, 2013 8:47:16 GMT
Sorry dude, but Kat is just 14 or 15-year-old and there have been enough hints of her potential homosexual tendencies that 3 people around her have openly commented it to her for over a year now. Enough of these hints that other people reading this comic have been posing questions on her sexuality to Tom for years now, sometimes gay-people telling how they can well identify with how Kat feels - and this was way before she started dating Paz. That she has not quite realized what these tendencies in her are should not surprise anybody, because, as Tom said, "she's just a kid" (back at the time of Divine, I think): she is just now turning to her adolescence and it is bloody outrageous to demand from a preteen girl to give or understand clear signals of her later sexual tendencies. Just how much do you imagine she has considered her own sexuality when she's 12 or 13-year-old? This is about the time she starts to ponder it, and yet there has already been cues that all make sense in that light. This turn of events really didn't surprise many here, most saw that potential as she was always a tomboy. Just because you can't read the cues doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means you failed in what other people succeeded. So, my dear Watson, don't blame it on the writer if you can't solve a mystery. |
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Post by spritznar on Dec 5, 2013 9:26:44 GMT
In a mistery story, you have to give hints. [...] You can't create half of the plot saying one thing, the other half saying the opposite and then say "hey, the first one is not important!". in mysteries you can have a red herring though, where you misdirect the reader. but tom isn't doing that, because the first evidence of kat liking boys does not contradict the conclusion of 'kat likes girls'. they're not opposite. they're not even necessarily related. [...]A girl who hasn't been much aware of the existence of romantic/sexual attraction between women, would have a tough time recognizing that attraction within herself.[...] [...]My dubt is about "boys-are-hot hormones" awakening a lot before "girls-are-hot hormones" and then disappearing. the hormones may awaken at the same time but if you don't recognize them for what they are you probably won't act on them (or not in obvious ways). and again, no one said the "boys-are-hot" hormones disappeared. regarding your argument that kat/paz wasn't hinted at properly: perhaps you didn't pick up on some of the hints other readers saw because they were too subtle to notice if the reader didn't know what to look for? ((and i took so long forming this post zimmyzims pretty much said what i was trying to say)) in conclusion, |
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Post by Gulby on Dec 5, 2013 11:28:16 GMT
Oh well, thank you for your story. But why do you wrote that there were no hints at all and then that some anecdotes were hints once you accepted your bisexuality? I don't understand it, sorry. Well, because the hints appeared only a few years later, retrospectively, by looking back on my life. As a young girl, living in an hetero-centrist world, how in the world could have I seen signs of anything else than "I love boys" ?... It was to say that if you grow up in a family that don't talk a lot about that, that is not concerned by those "issues", in a world that condemn the homosexuals to be seen as deviants or else, and that totally neglect the lesbians and a lot more the bisexuals, then, how could you have hints at all about what you really are ?... It takes time, sometimes (often) it takes a lot of troubles and pain, and for most of the people I know, they weren't aware of their orientation until they were 17 or more. So, to relate to the topic, that's not surprising at all for me that Kat (just 15 years old for what we know !) just begin to conceive that she might be into girls as well as into boys. Even if in the past, there were no hints at all. Maybe we should see soon some flashbacks which will show us that they were indeed some hints, retrospectively. That wouldn't mean that Tom is a bad writer. So, for me, really, I don't see your point.  Edit : To develop a little bit more, if someone should write my biography someday (ahahah xD), he or she would have to start with "Gulby was a little girl that fell very easily in love with a lot of boys in her school. In elementary school, one year, she was in love with 5 guys at the same time, all were unreciprocated love. She was often alone, rejected by most of her comrades. Once, she was walking in the playground when another kid yelled at her, meanly, "dirty dike !"" And a little bit further in the story : "In high-school, she started to question her sexuality. Maybe she wasn't heterosexual. But why ? What had she done to deserve such a fate ?" And later : "Once she accepted what she was and started to live with it, she looked back on her life and realized that, maybe, this one girl that she so wanted to be friend with was her first feminine love. And maybe, when she tried the french kiss "just for fun", with that girl in elementary school, right behind the cherry tree, that wasn't insignificant. And maybe, when she was close to some female friends, the blush on her face wasn't about the social promiscuity but about hormones awakeness." Is it clearer ? And in what way should it be different from what experienced Kat in this story ? Anyone remember well the blush on Kat's face when Reynardine made his "joke" about Antimony and Kat kissing. :3 |
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dard
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Post by dard on Dec 5, 2013 18:49:12 GMT
Really, I wanted to read these comics and not look at all this as something different but two people having a crush on each other. After all, this is nothing more. Of course there are two aspects that prevented me from doing that: All the comments in the forums and the comic itself, that highlighted the nature of this new relationship.
I must say that I would have preferred if the whole conversation with Rey would not have happened. But I won't complain. It was probably necessary and kind of cute. For a long time I have wondered if and how much Rey actively considered Kat a friend by herself and not just because of her association with Annie. Now I don't doubt him anymore. To me, this is an important reason why I like this chapter very much.
To me, this Pazkat relationship didn't come out of nowhere, but neither was it forseeable. In fact, I rather enjoyed those hints that were given along the way and Kat's denial reactions. But those were harmless. Well, unless you count the headband in that Zimmy episode. It seemed a bit forced or at least desperate on Kat's part.
Anyway, now that this rather cute relationship is here and there is a lot of talk about it (unfortunately some of it unpleasant) I can't help but giving some thoughts about the homosexuality aspect of it, even though I feel it somehow diminishes the relationship itself.
First, Kat is not homosexual. She is clearly bisexual. Now Paz might very well be. Paz' somewhat clumsy advances on the boy on the girl's night out felt very forced and a bit desperate, pretty much exactly like I would expect from a girl in denial. Anyway, why do I think the bi aspect is worth mentioning? Well, because likeable bisexual characters that are not defined through their sexual activity are very rare. Much, much rarer than homosexual characters.
In my three decades as a comic reader I can now only think of two others. In TV series I can't think of a single example.
What I also consider interesting is that she fills the butch role in the relationship. I know, this butch-femme distinction may be a cliché, but I am told by a friend who was together with a couple of lesbians that there is indeed some validity to it. In fact, I can usually notice a certain role difference in the homosexuals I know personally (none of them female), even if only slightly. Now when I look at all those lesbians in comics, butch types are very underrepresented. The reason is simple: Most of the times when lesbians are introduced, they are supposed to carry a certain sex appeal to a male teenaged readership and more butch types don't. I mean, for example when Batwoman was first announced, being a lipstick lesbian was basically her job description! I was really glad when I noticed that writer and artist then decided not to write her that way.
Still, non cliched butch types are very rare and I am very happy for every exception to the rule.
Finally, after reading some pretty depressing comments on the Gunnerkrigg comment board, there is one point among those who criticize this whole development that I hesitate to dismiss, even if I certainly don't share the criticism as a whole. It was when someone complained that it seems to be en vogue in comics to have one lesbian on the cast. You know, I wondered the same. Especially because lesbians outnumber male homosexuals by far, even though in reality the ratio is usually reversed. In general, this is most likely really either because of the intended sex appeal to fanboys or simply because it is more socially accepted.
In my case it is especially evident: Of the five webcomics I read regularily, only two do not feature a lesbian character (one, if you exclude the bisexual example mentioned above) and in two this relationship was only introduced after I started reading the comic. So I really wondered if either lesbians have really become so widespread in comics or if I am just drawn to writing styles that are more likely to eventually introduce some lesbians.
I guess it is a bit of both, but mostly the latter. Why? Because almost all lesbian relationships I have encountered in webcomics in particular and comics in general were very well written. So much that they often count among my most favourite relationships in general. And the Pazkat relationship it really no exception.
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Post by warrl on Dec 5, 2013 20:44:40 GMT
The name of this thread is: How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?My answer (in short): I don't like it because: 1- It would be an incoherence with a big part of the plot It appears that several people disagree with you on this - both regarding whether it's incoherent at all, and whether the thing it's allegedly incoherent with is a big part of the plot. (And possibly other reasons that don't occur to me at the moment.) I'm one of those people, on both counts. I see lots of subtle hints leading up to this, with nothing contradicting it. And I don't think Kat being lesbian or bisexual is important to the plot except possibly as a vehicle to bring some other character(s) (most likely Paz) more into the forefront of the story. So she's additionally breaking a few more stereotypes, and this is suddenly a problem? She certainly doesn't match any stereotype of lesbians or bisexuals that I'm aware of. |
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Post by 2013dr on Dec 5, 2013 21:13:05 GMT
Not everyone agrees here on their beliefs, but I for one am disappointed Tom chose this path. There is too much gay material inundating everything as it is, and although I have perused this comic for years and had considered donating, I'm dropping this comic instead. Good luck and all that. I won't be watching for the troll responses.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Dec 5, 2013 21:55:32 GMT
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Post by brightside on Dec 5, 2013 22:03:14 GMT
Sorry dude, but Kat is just 14 or 15-year-old and there have been enough hints of her potential homosexual tendencies that 3 people around her have openly commented it to her for over a year now. Enough of these hints that other people reading this comic have been posing questions on her sexuality to Tom for years now, sometimes gay-people telling how they can well identify with how Kat feels - and this was way before she started dating Paz. That she has not quite realized what these tendencies in her are should not surprise anybody, because, as Tom said, "she's just a kid" (back at the time of Divine, I think): she is just now turning to her adolescence and it is bloody outrageous to demand from a preteen girl to give or understand clear signals of her later sexual tendencies. Just how much do you imagine she has considered her own sexuality when she's 12 or 13-year-old? This is about the time she starts to ponder it, and yet there has already been cues that all make sense in that light. This turn of events really didn't surprise many here, most saw that potential as she was always a tomboy. Just because you can't read the cues doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means you failed in what other people succeeded. So, my dear Watson, don't blame it on the writer if you can't solve a mystery. Are you serious? Almost all the discussions here and in the buttzone were about "Kat is gay? What?!" and you say "this didn't suprise many here?". Also "most saw that potential as she was always a tomboy". Again, stereotypes. Also people interpretating everything as love interest are everywhere in every work of fiction. The worst ones are called shippers. "Just because you can't read the cues doesn't mean they don't exist": oh well tell me about those clues you've found then! Wow, I know I just shouldn't engage at all, but I have to say this: So you just stopped liking boys even if you were sexually attracted by them before as an adult? Well ok, sorry about the nobody then, I just never knew about a story like yours, and I thought it was impossible. But I think you have to admit it's something that happens very very rarely (even for queer people), so from a storywriting point of view it would still seem kind of lazy. When a member says they don't feel comfortable talking about something, Drop It. You cross a line if you push on a personal issue after someone says no. I was not pushing on anything. I just said "oh, it's really like that? Well, sorry then, I was wrong!". The only thing I was still insisting on is "but it's a very rare thing!". The end. It's a "in general" thing, she doesn't have to talk about herself at all. In a mistery story, you have to give hints. [...] You can't create half of the plot saying one thing, the other half saying the opposite and then say "hey, the first one is not important!". in mysteries you can have a red herring though, where you misdirect the reader. but tom isn't doing that, because the first evidence of kat liking boys does not contradict the conclusion of 'kat likes girls'. they're not opposite. they're not even necessarily related. [...]My dubt is about "boys-are-hot hormones" awakening a lot before "girls-are-hot hormones" and then disappearing. the hormones may awaken at the same time but if you don't recognize them for what they are you probably won't act on them (or not in obvious ways). and again, no one said the "boys-are-hot" hormones disappeared. regarding your argument that kat/paz wasn't hinted at properly: perhaps you didn't pick up on some of the hints other readers saw because they were too subtle to notice if the reader didn't know what to look for? ((and i took so long forming this post zimmyzims pretty much said what i was trying to say)) in conclusion, As I wrote before: "So:
homosexuality=what?
bisexuality=plausible even if it's very strange that somone like her could not have ANY hints before." I'm not telling her being bisexual it would be impossible, when I wrote about "boys-are-hot" hormones disappearing it was a reply to some users that were thinking her being totally just interested in girls and not in boys at all was possible (chaosvii, Momo and maybe warrl, for example). I'm talking with a lot of different people, sometimes in a single post that can become confusing. If she is bisexual (and interested a lot in girls in general too, so a 3 or more on Kinsey Scale) I just think that Tom could have done it a lot better, maybe putting some hints before chapter 34 (but if there are some, again everyone just tell me where). Oh well, thank you for your story. But why do you wrote that there were no hints at all and then that some anecdotes were hints once you accepted your bisexuality? I don't understand it, sorry. Well, because the hints appeared only a few years later, retrospectively, by looking back on my life. As a young girl, living in an hetero-centrist world, how in the world could have I seen signs of anything else than "I love boys" ?... It was to say that if you grow up in a family that don't talk a lot about that, that is not concerned by those "issues", in a world that condemn the homosexuals to be seen as deviants or else, and that totally neglect the lesbians and a lot more the bisexuals, then, how could you have hints at all about what you really are ?... It takes time, sometimes (often) it takes a lot of troubles and pain, and for most of the people I know, they weren't aware of their orientation until they were 17 or more. So, to relate to the topic, that's not surprising at all for me that Kat (just 15 years old for what we know !) just begin to conceive that she might be into girls as well as into boys. Even if in the past, there were no hints at all. Maybe we should see soon some flashbacks which will show us that they were indeed some hints, retrospectively. That wouldn't mean that Tom is a bad writer. So, for me, really, I don't see your point. Edit : To develop a little bit more, if someone should write my biography someday (ahahah xD), he or she would have to start with "Gulby was a little girl that fell very easily in love with a lot of boys in her school. In elementary school, one year, she was in love with 5 guys at the same time, all were unreciprocated love. She was often alone, rejected by most of her comrades. Once, she was walking in the playground when another kid yelled at her, meanly, "dirty dike !"" And a little bit further in the story : "In high-school, she started to question her sexuality. Maybe she wasn't heterosexual. But why ? What had she done to deserve such a fate ?" And later : "Once she accepted what she was and started to live with it, she looked back on her life and realized that, maybe, this one girl that she so wanted to be friend with was her first feminine love. And maybe, when she tried the french kiss "just for fun", with that girl in elementary school, right behind the cherry tree, that wasn't insignificant. And maybe, when she was close to some female friends, the blush on her face wasn't about the social promiscuity but about hormones awakeness." Is it clearer ? And in what way should it be different from what experienced Kat in this story ? Anyone remember well the blush on Kat's face when Reynardine made his "joke" about Antimony and Kat kissing. :3 It's clearer, thank you! Here at least: one hint. Maybe that one could be interpreted like this! About the writing issue: yes, maybe some flashbacks could be useful to find the other ones. What I was saying was: it was not surprising for her to not have any hints, it's surprising for us! In your ipothetical biography, for example, it would have been strange (to me) if the writer never mentioned the kiss under the tree and your blushing when you were with your friends, but went directly to you thinking about yourself when that lady made a comment about your T-shirt! (of course, if you always blushed it would have been different, but that's another case). Kat had her hormones going on for a while but we never saw that hormones having a particular effect in front of girls. But maybe, again, it's just my personal idea of writing and Tom (and you too, maybe) have another one. To me, this Pazkat relationship didn't come out of nowhere, but neither was it forseeable. In fact, I rather enjoyed those hints that were given along the way and Kat's denial reactions. But those were harmless. Well, unless you count the headband in that Zimmy episode. It seemed a bit forced or at least desperate on Kat's part. Anyway, now that this rather cute relationship is here and there is a lot of talk about it (unfortunately some of it unpleasant) I can't help but giving some thoughts about the homosexuality aspect of it, even though I feel it somehow diminishes the relationship itself. First, Kat is not homosexual. She is clearly bisexual. Now Paz might very well be. Paz' somewhat clumsy advances on the boy on the girl's night out felt very forced and a bit desperate, pretty much exactly like I would expect from a girl in denial. Anyway, why do I think the bi aspect is worth mentioning? Well, because likeable bisexual characters that are not defined through their sexual activity are very rare. Much, much rarer than homosexual characters. In my three decades as a comic reader I can now only think of two others. In TV series I can't think of a single example. What I also consider interesting is that she fills the butch role in the relationship. I know, this butch-femme distinction may be a cliché, but I am told by a friend who was together with a couple of lesbians that there is indeed some validity to it. In fact, I can usually notice a certain role difference in the homosexuals I know personally (none of them female), even if only slightly. Now when I look at all those lesbians in comics, butch types are very underrepresented. The reason is simple: Most of the times when lesbians are introduced, they are supposed to carry a certain sex appeal to a male teenaged readership and more butch types don't. I mean, for example when Batwoman was first announced, being a lipstick lesbian was basically her job description! I was really glad when I noticed that writer and artist then decided not to write her that way. Still, non cliched butch types are very rare and I am very happy for every exception to the rule. I don't know about that. I often saw in TV lesbian people very stereotyped (now it's changing, but still they are). If she was a single one, she was the butch type. If it was a couple, butch+girly. In comics it's different, yes, but there are not a lot of straight tomboys too ( on wikipedia only Peppermint Patty and Valerie Smith outside manga, and even in manga come on Akane Tendo?). Maybe it's more of a "no tomboys-here" thing (for the same reason). Edit: The name of this thread is: How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?My answer (in short): I don't like it because: 1- It would be an incoherence with a big part of the plot It appears that several people disagree with you on this - both regarding whether it's incoherent at all, and whether the thing it's allegedly incoherent with is a big part of the plot. (And possibly other reasons that don't occur to me at the moment.) I'm one of those people, on both counts. I see lots of subtle hints leading up to this, with nothing contradicting it.And I don't think Kat being lesbian or bisexual is important to the plot except possibly as a vehicle to bring some other character(s) (most likely Paz) more into the forefront of the story. So she's additionally breaking a few more stereotypes, and this is suddenly a problem? She certainly doesn't match any stereotype of lesbians or bisexuals that I'm aware of. Hints: outside the reaction (the expression more than the blushing) to Reynard question, what hints are you talking about? Contradiction to her being only interested in girls: all the time she expressed interest in boys. Kat being lesbian or bisexual is not necessarily important to the plot, but it's still part of the plot. About the stereotypes: now she is not breaking a few more, she is not breaking stereotypes at all (for everything I said above here and before). I know, but responding to everyone it's complicated. And also half of my posts are me quoting myself because I've been misundertood. |
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lit
Full Member
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Post by lit on Dec 6, 2013 3:41:09 GMT
In a mistery story, you have to give hints. Clear, very subtle or nearly invisible hints, but hints that after you read the "end" should make you say "gosh golly how could I have not understood it, it's OBVIOUS now!"[...] Again: if you are creating a sub-plot in a mistery-like writing style you can not make everything end with something that it could have been impossible to deduct or even simply guess. Hints can be nice, but they're not always necessary. This is not a mystery story, and perhaps Tom did not want to overplay the "mystery" of Kat's sexuality. I think that might have overemphasized it, and in a way that's not all that original. There's more than one way to effectively tell a story. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you talking about the bold part? I was saying: Hints after chapter 34 could be interpreted in another way (she was just self-conscious abot her appearence), and if we will discover that Kat in reality is hetero or a 1 on Kinsey Scale everything would still make sense and if everything turns out like this and my interpretation is right, I said it first then everyone (it was a joke). If instead Kat is a 3 or more and those hints are "Kat likes girls in general and no, Paz is not even just the exeption or one of the few exemptions" hints, that would be in contrast with the pre-34 part of the comic and so a writing gaffe for everything I wrote above. Okay. Well I don't agree, so whatever. Oh right, because she was definitely being totally serious both of those times. What did you expected her to say if she for sure liked boys? Why she should have done any kind of comment like that with someone like Annie that doen't care at all if she was not interested at all? I mean, if Annie never did any comment, why Kat did it then? She didn't need to prove anything! Maybe because she was insecure, or thought it would be a funny or cute thing to say. Ok, but your analogy could have been a argument to my position or an argument to yours, that's why I asked. Also, Kat being so surprised it's a sign of something totally unespected. Something so big, even if in a subconscious level, I think it would have created a different effect. Maybe not though. What about all the "angel of the robots" part of the plot? Or the fact that, inside the court, almost all the time that something great happens they are together? Even in the covers they are "the two parts of the same medal"! www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1165 and like I said, the majority of the chapters are focused on Annie. Way more of the story is focused on Annie than Kat. I mean, you can bring all of that stuff up but it does not really trump the fact that Annie is the main character, sorry. why are you still assuming that for me Kat is just a stereotype? Or do you think that "Queer people that challenge gender stereotypes" are just all walking stereotypes for me? No, they are people like everyone else. "Queer people that challenge gender stereotypes" in fiction are stereotypes, because majority of queer people was (and still is, even if less) depicted like that. And characters that are "Queer people that challenge gender stereotypes" can be stereotyped charactes from that point of view, but of course they could have still their qualities and their differences. Okay, my point is that it's not stereotypical writing if it's done well and truthfully, and the problem you have with it strikes me as a bit meaningless. I don't feel terribly comfortable going into it here, but long story short that's how it went. So you just stopped liking boys even if you were sexually attracted by them before as an adult? Well ok, sorry about the nobody then, I just never knew about a story like yours, and I thought it was impossible. That's not what I said, but I don't want to go into the details. But I think you have to admit it's something that happens very very rarely (even for queer people), so from a storywriting point of view it would still seem kind of lazy. I don't. Sexuality can be extremely complicated for some. It's not all black and white for everyone. There isn't a ton of representation of the intricacies of it, so people have a hard time figuring it out by themselves. A lot of my queer friends have had a hard time sorting out their identities, and a lot of what helped for us was having one another around to talk to about it and learn from. More portrayals of sexuality confusion in stories might have been helpful to me as a youngster, so I don't see it as lazy storytelling. I'm not really all that weird. There are other people on this very forum who have said their concepts of their own sexualities have changed as they got older. |
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Post by spritznar on Dec 6, 2013 4:24:11 GMT
I often saw in TV lesbian people very stereotyped (now it's changing, but still they are). If she was a single one, she was the butch type. If it was a couple, butch+girly. In comics it's different, yes, but there are not a lot of straight tomboys too ( on wikipedia only Peppermint Patty and Valerie Smith outside manga, and even in manga come on Akane Tendo?). Maybe it's more of a "no tomboys-here" thing (for the same reason). moving on; stereotypes are everywhere and not all of them are bad. a character can't not fall into some category or another. tom's writing is thoughtful and original enough that i'm willing to trust he knows how to handle a potential stereotype or cliche gracefully. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Dec 6, 2013 5:13:25 GMT
Not everyone agrees here on their beliefs, but I for one am disappointed Tom chose this path. There is too much gay material inundating everything as it is, and although I have perused this comic for years and had considered donating, I'm dropping this comic instead. Good luck and all that. I won't be watching for the troll responses. Good luck in modern society. |
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winsbury
New Member
^ He's probably a goon
Posts: 22
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Post by winsbury on Dec 6, 2013 6:10:50 GMT
I love how homophobic people are complaining about a fictional character's sexual orientation and are calling it SJW propaganda*
*I don't see Renard saying "DIE CIS KINKSHAMING SKINNY STRAIGHT MALES!!!"
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Post by thshrkpnchr on Dec 6, 2013 6:39:24 GMT
Not everyone agrees here on their beliefs, but I for one am disappointed Tom chose this path. There is too much gay material inundating everything as it is, and although I have perused this comic for years and had considered donating, I'm dropping this comic instead. Good luck and all that. I won't be watching for the troll responses. 1. Follow a great comic for years 2. See "gay material", make a forum account just to spew the hate, then quit 3.  ?? 4. PROFIT!?? Seriously though, quitting GC just because of 2 bisexual girls seems pretty stupid to me. |
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Post by Gulby on Dec 6, 2013 7:29:50 GMT
I have to say something, and I'm really sorry for the useless and off-topic post, but... Brightside, anytime I see your pseudonym, I can't help myself to have one music automatically started in my head :
Everytime. >.< I hope you're satisfied, AH !
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Post by Señor Goose on Dec 6, 2013 7:42:11 GMT
Oh damn, I remember watching that.
At the time, I didn't really understand the movie, so I didn't like it, but that scene made it up to me.
I should watch it again.
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Post by Gotolei on Dec 6, 2013 8:00:49 GMT
Also off-topic, but it's forum threads full of huge posts like these that make me glad I have one of those hyper-fast scroll wheels  I guess [home] and [end] work just as well..not as much fun though |
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Post by GK Sierra on Dec 6, 2013 8:39:31 GMT
Also off-topic, but it's forum threads full of huge posts like these that make me glad I have one of those hyper-fast scroll wheels I guess [home] and [end] work just as well..not as much fun thoughI swear, I leave this place for one update, and when I come back I've got 25 notifications to catch up on and even more new posts to read. If this comic gets any bigger it's going to swallow what's left of my social life. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Dec 6, 2013 9:51:10 GMT
Almost all the discussions here and in the buttzone were about "Kat is gay? What?!" I don't frequent the buttzone, but here, the "Kat is Gay? What?!" -discussion is instigated by a very marginal minority that has all the time been in complete denial that there could be homosexuality in a top quality comic. It counts just about 5 or 6 people of whom most only registered in order to tell their shock about this. These are people, who argued that because Paz said that she's "not like that", there was a word of Tom that she is not gay. Please. They're a bit like you, who are basically saying that because Kat didn't have explicit girl crushes as a pre-teen child, her turning out having a homosexual relation at age of 14 or 15 is absolutely unbelievable - all despite the more-than-friendship vibe in her relation to Annie, that has been sensed by other comic characters for ages now. Even without that, it would not be so strange. For comparison, if that counts as unbelievable, then I expect you guys to come here start shock threads screaming "what, Annie can't be straight because she hasn't had boyfriend as a kid", if Annie one day develops a heterosexual relationship in this comic. If you would actually read the posts of other users you would realize that a large majority did not share the shock that these few people experienced with this turn of events, and the people responding these "it's so unbelievable that Kat and Paz are gay!!" posts have had no problem in reading this in line with the general thread of the comic. That Annie and Kat would develop a love relationship in time has been a possibility wished for or feared by the forumers for the longest time. |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 6, 2013 11:49:47 GMT
Hints after chapter 34 could be interpreted in another way They could be...but whoever interpreted it in another way interpreted it wrong (I'm not cocky, I didn't even see any hints before rereading) |
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) and, with a strange ambiguous glance, and a large smile, told me something as : "oh, how cute, that's for me ?..."
??
