How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?

[Señor Goose]

Nov 28, 2013 22:37:36 GMT The Anarch said:

Nov 28, 2013 22:31:35 GMT Señor Goose said:

You're amazing.

Haha, nah, not really. S'just a quick crappy little doodle. I mean hell, I apparently made Annie look kinda fat there.

I just thought she looked hippy.

[The Anarch]

Nov 28, 2013 22:39:24 GMT Intelligence said:

Its still a nice drawing, especially without the words.

But I put the words there just for you!

Nov 28, 2013 22:40:01 GMT Señor Goose said:

I just thought she looked hippy.

. . . damn, now I wish I had time to draw Annie dressed like a hippie.

[Intelligence]

But I put the words there just for you!

[chaosvii]

Nov 28, 2013 22:08:04 GMT Señor Goose said:

Nov 28, 2013 22:03:06 GMT Intelligence said:

So talk about /b/ anyway!

Sometimes cool stuff happens

One man's cool stuff is another man's atrocity upon all that is good & wholesome.

[Covalent]

So Intelligence gets a drawing but I don't? D:

Man, I agree with whoever said the main comment comics are a cesspit. I wonder if that's why Tom disabled commenting on some of the earlier panels.

[GK Sierra]

Nov 28, 2013 22:12:04 GMT Señor Goose said:

Nov 28, 2013 22:10:33 GMT Intelligence said:

That's all? That's rather a bit of a let down.

A lot of people insist that /b/ used to be good until a few years ago.

But /b/ was never good.
View Attachment

It never was, and what's more it has gotten even tamer over the years.

Moot cracked down hard on the raid threads and by and by the script kiddies who made all the fun and drama happen siphoned away to places that better appreciated their talents. 7chan was pretty cool for a while as the older posters migrated there, but they got pressure from the feds too, and so the raid board was shut down.

Now the go-to spot is the AnonOps chatrooms, but I won't go there because I don't want to be associated with card skimmers and identity thieves because they attract law enforcement. Pretty soon there won't be any lulz left except on the darkweb and certain private forums.

Ah well. I suppose it had to happen eventually. The web couldn't be a wild west forever, there's too much money in it.

[imaginaryfriend]

In spite of Renard's supportive speech in today's comic Kat is still a kid (and Paz is too). I sorta doubt it since the Court seems pretty open but if someone shames either into denying feelings for the other I think they get a pass on age alone in my book.

[brightside]

Hello, you all. I'm an old fan of the comic, but I decided to post here for the first time here after reading all this thread (that will probably continue until the end of the life on earth). BTW sorry for my english.

Ok, I have to say it, I don't like that too. Not because of OMGHOMOSEXUALITYISBAD o things like that, but because for me was something incompatible with her character. Simply that. After Eglamore, the bird-boy etc. it just needs for her to have her sexuality questioned by Paz to engage in a relation with her after one chapter? How much time it was really, one month? Seriously, what the hell? A lot of people it's still insisting that it was hinted, but NOT, you just have your shipping goggles on.

Also Kat being homosexual it seems like a big old stereotype (oh,a girl that does not dress "girly" and likes technology, it must be a lesbian for sure!"). In fact, what about the +5 Headband of Straightness and Zimmy's words to her? I liked the idea of a romantic girl that can love men and being a "tomboy" in a webcomic, and now PUFF, goodbye to it. At this point I really hope it turns out to be a "phase" or something like that (and maybe the reason of all the drama is because Kat herself were unsure about her sexuality fo being so "different", THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING).

Speaking about lesbians I would have liked a lot more if Tom used that chapter to let us know Zimmy and Gamma better, instead of using them like some kind of "spirit animals" in Kat's quest for her real sexual preferences. (ok, I'm saying that also because I love those two characters and I want to know more about Zimmy's connection to the ether, but still...)

Just my two cents.


tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuddenlySexuality
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShippingGoggles

Nov 27, 2013 6:17:02 GMT Momo said:

Nov 27, 2013 6:04:56 GMT @thatguywiththename said:

Just as happened on Reddit, I've been accused of being homophobic.  Brilliant.  I just want realistic demographics.  Being pro-gay doesn't mean you have to make half of your main characters gay, because guess what?  I'm not pro-gay or pro-straight.  I just want realism.  Jesus Christ, you people.

I never once used the word homophobe, but ok bro.

Also, just a hint: if multiple people in multiple places have told you that what you're saying is homophobic, maybe you should stop and examine the things you are saying and the reasons behind them, rather than going on the defensive and playing the victim. There are a lot of things in this comic that could be called unrealistic (a lot more unrealistic than a lot of gay people in once place), and the fact that this is the only thing you object to out of all those things speaks volumes. 

Also, saying you're neutral on something like the issue of homosexuality (or race if we wanna hark back to that metaphor) is not a get out of jail free card. "I don't care" is as much a part of the problem as hate is. 

Reddit is not exactly a place when you can express your opinions without insults because yes, they are very fast on applying labels. If you lived in a town full of bigots that insulted you for your opinions (or if you just wrote on some boards of 4chan or tumblr) do you think you should stop just because everyone says the same thing? Majority is not always right.
And someone can be interested in a social issue without wanting to see it always and everywhere, especially if that could mean a loss of quality in a work of art and EVEN MORE if it's preaching (BTW I don't think Tom has become a preacher, but maybe he was influenced by what's happening in other webcomics).

Well, bye.

[Elysium]

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

 it just needs for her to have her sexuality questioned by Paz to engage in a relation with her after one chapter? How much time it was really, one month? Seriously, what the hell? A lot of people it's still insisting that it was hinted, but NOT, you just have your shipping goggles on.

You're just talking rubbish, that sub-plot lasted 8 chapters, with key chapters being 34, 35, 38 and 42 so yes it was addressed before its resolution, FACT

[nero]

I'm fine with Kat's relationship with Paz. I feel we could understand their relationship better if we had some pages showing Kat hanging out with Paz before their first kiss. What is it about Paz that Kat likes? We know that she started dating Paz because she was honest with her feelings and wasn't afraid of what anyone else would think. I wished we could have a page where Kat thoughts show that this and all the other good qualities, is why she loves Paz. That way we could understand why Kat wants to move the relationship along and have real dates.

[chaosvii]

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

Ok, I have to say it, I don't like that too. Not because of OMGHOMOSEXUALITYISBAD o things like that, but because for me was something incompatible with her character. Simply that. After Eglamore, the bird-boy etc. it just needs for her to have her sexuality questioned by Paz to engage in a relation with her after one chapter? How much time it was really, one month? Seriously, what the hell? [Shipping stuff redacted]

Also Kat being homosexual it seems like a big old stereotype (oh,a girl that does not dress "girly" and likes technology, it must be a lesbian for sure!"). In fact, what about the +5 Headband of Straightness and Zimmy's words to her? I liked the idea of a romantic girl that can love men and being a "tomboy" in a webcomic, and now PUFF, goodbye to it. At this point I really hope it turns out to be a "phase" or something like that (and maybe the reason of all the drama is because Kat herself were unsure about her sexuality fo being so "different", THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING).

So you are of the perceptive that Kat's characterization has been incompatible with bisexuality or even homosexuality? And that Kat's age is not proper context for her evolving understanding of her own sexuality, but rather that Tom is suddenly injecting an attraction to gals into Kat (or something similar)?
I just wanna be sure that you understand what you are saying and intend to say such things.

I too am fond of tomboys and have dated them. I am not particularly disappointed that any given fictional tomboy finds herself to not be as straight as she initially assumed. I have assumed that Kat was straight, but upon seeing that she was accepting of Paz's request to date, I figured that both Kat and I had discovered something new about Kat sexuality. This is because I am not of the perspective that Kat's characterization has been incompatible with bisexuality or even homosexuality.
I have known of, and have met, people that self-identify as homosexual or bisexual but prefer their own sex that have mentioned that they had hetero-crushes prior to finding that they were more attracted to their own sex more & more throughout their adolescence. This strongly deviates from my own experience in which I found nothing particularly interesting about guy butt, but I found gal butt to be rather intriguing. Sexuality is kinda wacky like that.

Your hopes are cool and all, and I am fine with scathing criticism of any artist, but I'd like to make sure that you understand that you are calling Tom's work to be so derivative as to employ cliches like tomboyish/butch lesbians into Kat's characterization to the extent that you would like/would accept a cliche to happen in order to make it go away. Which I find to be poor criticism, even if said flippantly.
To illustrate my point: I would be cool with a hypothetical story from Tom that: Starred a young individual that thought they were straight, was confronted with the thought they were not straight, only to later think they were straight again, then figured out that they were not straight but decided that thinking of themselves as prefers sexy ladies, but won't turn down sexy dudes, sexy bird-dudes or sexy manly robots.
But your criticism implies that such a story should end right before that last part and would be better for it.

[brightside]

Nov 30, 2013 1:02:27 GMT Elysium said:

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

 it just needs for her to have her sexuality questioned by Paz to engage in a relation with her after one chapter? How much time it was really, one month? Seriously, what the hell? A lot of people it's still insisting that it was hinted, but NOT, you just have your shipping goggles on.

You're just talking rubbish, that sub-plot lasted 8 chapters, with key chapters being 34, 35, 38 and 42 so yes it was addressed before its resolution, FACT

Ok, I was wrong. It was 8 Chapters (even if you have to tell me where is Kat in 36,39 and 40. Also she just appears in the first two pages of 37). How about real time?

Nov 30, 2013 1:37:01 GMT chaosvii said:

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

Ok, I have to say it, I don't like that too. Not because of OMGHOMOSEXUALITYISBAD o things like that, but because for me was something incompatible with her character. Simply that. After Eglamore, the bird-boy etc. it just needs for her to have her sexuality questioned by Paz to engage in a relation with her after one chapter? How much time it was really, one month? Seriously, what the hell? [Shipping stuff redacted]

Also Kat being homosexual it seems like a big old stereotype (oh,a girl that does not dress "girly" and likes technology, it must be a lesbian for sure!"). In fact, what about the +5 Headband of Straightness and Zimmy's words to her? I liked the idea of a romantic girl that can love men and being a "tomboy" in a webcomic, and now PUFF, goodbye to it. At this point I really hope it turns out to be a "phase" or something like that (and maybe the reason of all the drama is because Kat herself were unsure about her sexuality fo being so "different", THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING).

So you are of the perceptive that Kat's characterization has been incompatible with bisexuality or even homosexuality? And that Kat's age is not proper context for her evolving understanding of her own sexuality, but rather that Tom is suddenly injecting an attraction to gals into Kat (or something similar)?
I just wanna be sure that you understand what you are saying and intend to say such things.

I too am fond of tomboys and have dated them. I am not particularly disappointed that any given fictional tomboy finds herself to not be as straight as she initially assumed. I have assumed that Kat was straight, but upon seeing that she was accepting of Paz's request to date, I figured that both Kat and I had discovered something new about Kat sexuality. This is because I am not of the perspective that Kat's characterization has been incompatible with bisexuality or even homosexuality.
I have known of, and have met, people that self-identify as homosexual or bisexual but prefer their own sex that have mentioned that they had hetero-crushes prior to finding that they were more attracted to their own sex more & more throughout their adolescence. This strongly deviates from my own experience in which I found nothing particularly interesting about guy butt, but I found gal butt to be rather intriguing. Sexuality is kinda wacky like that.

Your hopes are cool and all, and I am fine with scathing criticism of any artist, but I'd like to make sure that you understand that you are calling Tom's work to be so derivative as to employ cliches like tomboyish/butch lesbians into Kat's characterization to the extent that you would like/would accept a cliche to happen in order to make it go away. Which I find to be poor criticism, even if said flippantly.
To illustrate my point: I would be cool with a hypothetical story from Tom that: Starred a young individual that thought they were straight, was confronted with the thought they were not straight, only to later think they were straight again, then figured out that they were not straight but decided that thinking of themselves as prefers sexy ladies, but won't turn down sexy dudes, sexy bird-dudes or sexy manly robots.
But your criticism implies that such a story should end right before that last part and would be better for it.

Bisexuality would be more compatible, I just think it would be strange if we should just ignore everything before the party. Also it would not be connected (or less) to a stereotype that in comics and webcomics as well is still VERY used today. Also the problem is how she starts to think about it: because Paz thinks she is a lesbian/bisexual. If everything started in another way (or if it was another character) it would have been different. I mean, she was crazy for muut, Eglamore and bird-boy and she never thought about a woman in that way? Never happened? That's the point, it's just too strange for me. For Eglamore and Alistair it could have been more of a romantic crush, but muut? So:
homosexuality=what?
bisexuality=plausible even if it's very strange that somone like her could not have ANY hints before.
If there was an explanation of the "no hints before" yes, I would have no problems with your story (even if I think that the "it was a phase/I was not sure about my sexuality" it's more of a thing that happens in real life that a cliche used in media).

[warrl]

Nov 30, 2013 1:31:37 GMT nero said:

I'm fine with Kat's relationship with Paz. I feel we could understand their relationship better if we had some pages showing Kat hanging out with Paz before their first kiss.

Like this and this?.

Or this and this?

Or maybe this and this?

And what all of those imply had been going on off-screen?

Or did you have something else in mind?

What is it about Paz that Kat likes? We know that she started dating Paz because she was honest with her feelings and wasn't afraid of what anyone else would think. I wished we could have a page where Kat thoughts show that

Tom typically hasn't used many thought-balloons.

this and all the other good qualities, is why she loves Paz. That way we could understand why Kat wants to move the relationship along and have real dates.

In other words, you want to turn Paz into a major character in the comic.

That may happen, now... because of the relationship with Kat. There was no reason for it to happen before. Remember, this is primarily Annie's story.

edit 2017: third link was not supposed to be a duplicate of the second

[chaosvii]

Nov 30, 2013 2:50:29 GMT brightside said:

Nov 30, 2013 1:37:01 GMT chaosvii said:

So you are of the perceptive that Kat's characterization has been incompatible with bisexuality or even homosexuality? And that Kat's age is not proper context for her evolving understanding of her own sexuality, but rather that Tom is suddenly injecting an attraction to gals into Kat (or something similar)?
I just wanna be sure that you understand what you are saying and intend to say such things.

I too am fond of tomboys and have dated them. I am not particularly disappointed that any given fictional tomboy finds herself to not be as straight as she initially assumed. I have assumed that Kat was straight, but upon seeing that she was accepting of Paz's request to date, I figured that both Kat and I had discovered something new about Kat sexuality. This is because I am not of the perspective that Kat's characterization has been incompatible with bisexuality or even homosexuality.
I have known of, and have met, people that self-identify as homosexual or bisexual but prefer their own sex that have mentioned that they had hetero-crushes prior to finding that they were more attracted to their own sex more & more throughout their adolescence. This strongly deviates from my own experience in which I found nothing particularly interesting about guy butt, but I found gal butt to be rather intriguing. Sexuality is kinda wacky like that.

Your hopes are cool and all, and I am fine with scathing criticism of any artist, but I'd like to make sure that you understand that you are calling Tom's work to be so derivative as to employ cliches like tomboyish/butch lesbians into Kat's characterization to the extent that you would like/would accept a cliche to happen in order to make it go away. Which I find to be poor criticism, even if said flippantly.
To illustrate my point: I would be cool with a hypothetical story from Tom that: Starred a young individual that thought they were straight, was confronted with the thought they were not straight, only to later think they were straight again, then figured out that they were not straight but decided that thinking of themselves as prefers sexy ladies, but won't turn down sexy dudes, sexy bird-dudes or sexy manly robots.
But your criticism implies that such a story should end right before that last part and would be better for it.

Bisexuality would be more compatible, I just think it would be strange if we should just ignore everything before the party. Also it would not be connected (or less) to a stereotype that in comics and webcomics as well is still VERY used today. Also the problem is how she starts to think about it: because Paz thinks she is a lesbian/bisexual. If everything started in another way (or if it was another character) it would have been different. I mean, she was crazy for muut, Eglamore and bird-boy and she never thought about a woman in that way? Never happened? That's the point, it's just too strange for me. For Eglamore and Alistair it could have been more of a romantic crush, but muut? So:
homosexuality=what?
bisexuality=plausible even if it's very strange that somone like her could not have ANY hints before.
If there was an explanation of the "no hints before" yes, I would have no problems with your story (even if I think that the "it was a phase/I was not sure about my sexuality" it's more of a thing that happens in real life that a cliche used in media).

Alright cool.
So what do you think of what Paz said about her own sexuality to Kat? Here, here, and here then? In Paz's case, she claims to have had to wrestle over the fact that these feelings of attraction to not-dudes are new to her too!
I mean she was crushing on a dude named Matt, who was attracted to this moon-lady instead of her, and it was all super embarrassing how that turned out, and Paz said that was not... like that... resulting in the smoothest of smooth exchanges ever well before Paz ever had Bobby print out that romantic letter of admiration and what-have-you to Kat.

For me, it feels consistent with what other gay & bi individuals have told me, it feels consistent with the Kinsey Scale. And I feel like Tom handled the hints in Chapter 35, where Kat wasn't cool with the idea of her new maybe-feelings of liking the not-dudes nor implications of them, as well as in Chapter 38 with the way Gamma Zeta hounded her about the way that Kat changed her behavior so that everybody understands that Kat is totally a lady-gal that looks like a lady because she likes girl-things (such as, but not limited to manly-dudes) and most certainly did not hit on Paz that one time. On their own, any one of the hints that Kat likes not-dudes didn't look like hints to me, but together they felt much less ambiguous to me.

It's easy to breeze through those details in one swoop and not read too much into them if you read more into the evidence that Kat likes dudes, as I did for most of the comic. It's not counter-evidence, sure, but it feels like counter-evidence due when you're not actually thinking about all the evidence taken as a whole. Hell, it wasn't until Gamma Zeta said "cos you can't always run from what scares ya." that my paradigm shifted from the idea Kat likes dudes and she totally wants you to not think otherwise because that is embarrassing! to the idea Maybe Kat likes girls & dudes but feels scared and/or embarrassed about liking girls because she's used to liking dudes! 
And then I read everything again and I was like: Oh wow maybe that's what's going on, and if it is then that might be a thing that she ends up no longer afraid of! It's as if she's figuring these things out slowly just like I am as a reader!

[nero]

Nov 30, 2013 2:54:22 GMT warrl said:

Or did you have something else in mind?

I was hoping to see Kat thinking of Paz in a more romantic manner(what makes Paz stand out to her) after
this and before this chapter. Here Kat said "Yeah... okay".
At what point was Kat really sure she wanted to keep dating Paz? I feel there had to be something before this page where she shows she wants a romantic relationship.

In other words, you want to turn Paz into a major character in the comic.
That may happen, now... because of the relationship with Kat. There was no reason for it to happen before. Remember, this is primarily Annie's story.

If Paz becomes another best friend to Annie it could happen.

I think the transition I wanted could have been put in this chapter and of course I'll wait until its finished. And if that transition isn't there I'm fine with how Tom presented this.

[lit]

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

Hello, you all. I'm an old fan of the comic, but I decided to post here for the first time here after reading all this thread (that will probably continue until the end of the life on earth). BTW sorry for my english.

Ok, I have to say it, I don't like that too. Not because of OMGHOMOSEXUALITYISBAD o things like that, but because for me was something incompatible with her character. Simply that. After Eglamore, the bird-boy etc. it just needs for her to have her sexuality questioned by Paz to engage in a relation with her after one chapter? How much time it was really, one month? Seriously, what the hell? A lot of people it's still insisting that it was hinted, but NOT, you just have your shipping goggles on.

Bisexuality exists. It does! She may have also been having feelings for girls this whole time and did not mention them because she was insecure. Or because she was young and influenced by heavily straight-biased media and did not realize that things she was feeling for girls were viable crushes.

You cannot read her mind (except for when Tom uses thought bubbles). There is this concept of a closet in the lgbt world. When you are in the closet, you pretend to be straight. Sometimes people cannot tell the difference, because they are wearing their straight goggles.

Also Kat being homosexual it seems like a big old stereotype (oh,a girl that does not dress "girly" and likes technology, it must be a lesbian for sure!"). In fact, what about the +5 Headband of Straightness and Zimmy's words to her? I liked the idea of a romantic girl that can love men and being a "tomboy" in a webcomic, and now PUFF, goodbye to it. At this point I really hope it turns out to be a "phase" or something like that (and maybe the reason of all the drama is because Kat herself were unsure about her sexuality fo being so "different", THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING).

Bisexuality exists. She might still love men. I don't agree that it's important for her to though.

I disagree with your assessment that there is a problem with Kat's portrayal as a "tomboy lesbian". What you're trying to express is that you are disappointed that by making Kat gay, Tom is implying that straight women cannot be good at computers, or have a more tomboyish presentation. I do not think that Tom is implying that. More importantly, I believe that by making Kat queer, Tom is still challenging more stereotypes than he would have by making her straight.

Kat is a nuanced character, not just a flat stereotype. A lot of queer women (though not all) prefer to dress in a more neutral or masculine way for various reasons. Tom has portrayed four women in the comic as queer (Kat, Paz, Zimmy, and Gamma). They all express femininity in different ways. Zimmy does seem somewhat neutral in her choice of dress, but Paz and Gamma seem to wear more feminine clothing, and their talents center around healing and nurturing, which are often associated with women. To have one out of these four women actually dress like a tomboy and be into technology is not the same as stereotyping.

In the comic, are a lot of really badass women, queer and straight, who are all very different from one another in many ways and who are all portrayed really well. I don't think there has to be a token straight tomboy for it to be a good comic. You view the Kat's sexuality epiphany as the comic losing the straight tomboy girl and I see it as the comic gaining an awesome queer tech genius woman. The fact that she is no longer obviously interested in men does not make her any less of a woman, or any less valuable.

EDIT:

Nov 30, 2013 4:24:45 GMT nero said:

Nov 30, 2013 2:54:22 GMT warrl said:

Or did you have something else in mind?

I was hoping to see Kat thinking of Paz in a more romantic manner(what makes Paz stand out to her) after
this and before this chapter. Here Kat said "Yeah... okay".
At what point was Kat really sure she wanted to keep dating Paz? I feel there had to be something before this page where she shows she wants a romantic relationship.

There wasn't a whole lot of time in between Kat saying "yes" and this chapter for that to happen! Quicksilver was very focused on Renard, and Crash Course was very focused on Annie; the fact that every time Kat appeared in the peripheries of these chapters she was with Paz seems notable to me.

I suppose Tom could have delayed Thread and added another chapter in between, but I'm not sure that would have made the most sense for the story.

[brightside]

Nov 30, 2013 3:59:44 GMT chaosvii said:

Nov 30, 2013 2:50:29 GMT brightside said:

Bisexuality would be more compatible, I just think it would be strange if we should just ignore everything before the party. Also it would not be connected (or less) to a stereotype that in comics and webcomics as well is still VERY used today. Also the problem is how she starts to think about it: because Paz thinks she is a lesbian/bisexual. If everything started in another way (or if it was another character) it would have been different. I mean, she was crazy for muut, Eglamore and bird-boy and she never thought about a woman in that way? Never happened? That's the point, it's just too strange for me. For Eglamore and Alistair it could have been more of a romantic crush, but muut? So:
homosexuality=what?
bisexuality=plausible even if it's very strange that somone like her could not have ANY hints before.
If there was an explanation of the "no hints before" yes, I would have no problems with your story (even if I think that the "it was a phase/I was not sure about my sexuality" it's more of a thing that happens in real life that a cliche used in media).

Alright cool.
So what do you think of what Paz said about her own sexuality to Kat? Here, here, and here then? In Paz's case, she claims to have had to wrestle over the fact that these feelings of attraction to not-dudes are new to her too!
I mean she was crushing on a dude named Matt, who was attracted to this moon-lady instead of her, and it was all super embarrassing how that turned out, and Paz said that was not... like that... resulting in the smoothest of smooth exchanges ever well before Paz ever had Bobby print out that romantic letter of admiration and what-have-you to Kat.

For me, it feels consistent with what other gay & bi individuals have told me, it feels consistent with the Kinsey Scale. And I feel like Tom handled the hints in Chapter 35, where Kat wasn't cool with the idea of her new maybe-feelings of liking the not-dudes nor implications of them, as well as in Chapter 38 with the way Gamma hounded her about the way that Kat changed her behavior so that everybody understands that Kat is totally a lady-gal that looks like a lady because she likes girl-things (such as, but not limited to manly-dudes) and most certainly did not hit on Paz that one time. On their own, any one of the hints that Kat likes not-dudes didn't look like hints to me, but together they felt much less ambiguous to me.

It's easy to breeze through those details in one swoop and not read too much into them if you read more into the evidence that Kat likes dudes, as I did for most of the comic. It's not counter-evidence, sure, but it feels like counter-evidence due when you're not actually thinking about all the evidence taken as a whole. Hell, it wasn't until Gamma said "cos you can't always run from what scares ya." that my paradigm shifted from the idea Kat likes dudes and she totally wants you to not think otherwise because that is embarrassing! to the idea Maybe Kat likes girls & dudes but feels scared and/or embarrassed about liking girls because she's used to liking dudes! 
And then I read everything again and I was like: Oh wow maybe that's what's going on, and if it is then that might be a thing that she ends up no longer afraid of! It's as if she's figuring these things out slowly just like I am as a reader!

Paz's situation seems a little different to me, at least from this page. While Kat is in fact suprised by the idea of being considered a lesbian she takes a compliment as something like "She is hitting on me" and goes into defensive mode, more or less like Kat here (after that dialogue). So it seems (at least, to me) that maybe she was self-conscious about her sexuality since before (about Matt, it could have been both her being interested by both boys and girls or her being in denial and trying to "act like a straight girl").
About the hints: yes, after Chapter 34 they give you the possibility to think that maybe Kat likes girls too, the problem is that there are not any hints of interest until then (at least, I never saw anything in that direction but a lot in the opposite one) and that Kat starts thinking about it after being identified as a bi/lesbian lady. After that she tries to hide it (with the "girly girl" thing). More or less that's how I read Kat during the comic:

Chapters 1-34: Straight

34: Dialogue and misunderstanding with Paz, Kat starts thinking about herself

35-38: Kat tries to hide what happened with Paz and for doing so she acts more "girly" and becomes paranoid about things like comments and touching Annie

38-Zimmy reveals how Kat is scared and is trying to hide her true self . This can be read it in multiple ways: as "she is trying to make people stop thinking she is not a girl/she is not straight (by the way, stupid association) because of her appearance" or "she is trying to hide the truth to herself". In the end, Gamma (or Zimmy? It seems Zimmy to me!) tells her to fight her fears.

41- Letter, by the way now Kat is more relaxed.

42- Paz declares, Kat says "Okay"

44- They are going out together.

45- Kat has doubts about her relationship with Paz and tries to impress her and discover what exactly they are (friends or more?), but discovers that Paz had the same thoughts (probably) and they kiss (also Annie and creepy robots).

After chap.34 I think is all clear and well connected. So it was before chap.34.
Now, what I was talking about before was the passage between pre-34 and post-34, because I think is kind of strange that, if Kat is interested in girls, she never (and we never) had any hints at all. Everything said the exact opposite. So I think that her being a lesbian would be kind of absurd, and bisexuality, while more compatible, it would be still a little strange.
But yes, if we put Kat in Kinsey Scale as a 1 or 2 probably everything would have sense anyway (she is generally interested in dudes, but with Paz is different and she loves her), so I'm talking about 3 or more for being difficult to explain.

Nov 30, 2013 4:43:27 GMT lit said:

Bisexuality exists. It does! She may have also been having feelings for girls this whole time and did not mention them because she was insecure. Or because she was young and influenced by heavily straight-biased media and did not realize that things she was feeling for girls were viable crushes.

You cannot read her mind (except for when Tom uses thought bubbles). There is this concept of a closet in the lgbt world. When you are in the closet, you pretend to be straight. Sometimes people cannot tell the difference, because they are wearing their straight goggles.

I don't think that biased media could affect her, living her in a place that, like Reyne said, is more tollerant compared to the "outside". Her not mentioning it could be ok for making the other characters think she is straight, but we needed to have at least the possibility to guess that she was bi! (or not have completely opposite hints!) After all, even when Tom doesn't use thought bubbles we can see inside the mind of some characters (ex. Annie's hidden personality) or understand things from the situations. As readers we need to be able to do that. If you build a personality you cannot change it at will without a big reason, because it destroys the unity of the entire plot. Now if Annie becomes a super extrovert without reason do you think it would be ok?

Nov 30, 2013 4:43:27 GMT lit said:

Bisexuality exists. She might still love men. I don't agree that it's important for her to though.

I disagree with your assessment that there is a problem with Kat's portrayal as a "tomboy lesbian". What you're trying to express is that you are disappointed that by making Kat gay, Tom is implying that straight women cannot be good at computers, or have a more tomboyish presentation. I do not think that Tom is implying that. More importantly, I believe that by making Kat queer, Tom is still challenging more stereotypes than he would have by making her straight.

Kat is a nuanced character, not just a flat stereotype. A lot of queer women (though not all) prefer to dress in a more neutral or masculine way for various reasons. Tom has portrayed four women in the comic as queer (Kat, Paz, Zimmy, and Gamma). They all express femininity in different ways. Zimmy does seem somewhat neutral in her choice of dress, but Paz and Gamma seem to wear more feminine clothing, and their talents center around healing and nurturing, which are often associated with women. To have one out of these four women actually dress like a tomboy and be into technology is not the same as stereotyping.

In the comic, are a lot of really badass women, queer and straight, who are all very different from one another in many ways and who are all portrayed really well. I don't think there has to be a token straight tomboy for it to be a good comic. You view the Kat's sexuality epiphany as the comic losing the straight tomboy girl and I see it as the comic gaining an awesome queer tech genius woman. The fact that she is no longer obviously interested in men does not make her any less of a woman, or any less valuable.

As I said, it's important for the coherence of the character.
I don't think that a lesbian tomboy is a problem in herself, but in media and art it's just like an effemminate gay man: an overused stereotype. I don't think that Tom is doing that intentionally (I hope!), but still it makes me sad that one of the less stereotyped characters it's no more so "not stereotyped".
I don't think Tom is challenging more stereotypes, the opposite. Why, what stereotypes would be challenged by Kat being a lesbian?
Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not).

[Elysium]

Nov 30, 2013 2:50:29 GMT brightside said:

Ok, I was wrong. It was 8 Chapters (even if you have to tell me where is Kat in 36,39 and 40. Also she just appears in the first two pages of 37). How about real time?

It doesn't has to be always about Kat, there are many plots waiting, if not resolution, at least a bit of development

homosexuality=what?
bisexuality=plausible even if it's very strange that somone like her could not have ANY hints before.

Homosexuality or bisexuality doesn't need to have hints, there are men or women who realize their homosexuality after being married with the opposite sex
Why don't you let stuff just happens ?

[lit]

Nov 30, 2013 6:44:33 GMT brightside said:

I don't think that biased media could affect her, living her in a place that, like Reyne said, is more tollerant compared to the "outside".

Renard did say that, but Kat has shown on many occasions to be very aware of and invested in popular culture. She plays video games and watches movies that actually exist (Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Audio, Princess Mononoke, those bands she was talking to Aly about) so it stands to reason she has also been exposed to plenty of media that normalizes and romanticizes straight relationships, and portrays queer people as strange or undesirable. Also, the overwhelming majority of relationships that we know she has encountered are heterosexual. Zimmy and Gamma aren't, but they're also very strange. Shadow and Robot aren't, but they are very new and also not human. On the other side, there's heterosexual pairings all over the place. Even if the Court is slightly more tolerant of strange things than other places, heterosexual relationships are still what Kat must see as typical.

She is also very concerned about being perceived of as weird, or she wouldn't have brought it up with Renard in the first place.

Her not mentioning it could be ok for making the other characters think she is straight, but we needed to have at least the possibility to guess that she was bi! (or not have completely opposite hints!) After all, even when Tom doesn't use thought bubbles we can see inside the mind of some characters (ex. Annie's hidden personality) or understand things from the situations. As readers we need to be able to do that. If you build a personality you cannot change it at will without a big reason, because it destroys the unity of the entire plot. Now if Annie becomes a super extrovert without reason do you think it would be ok?

As far as I understand, Tom began portraying Kat's struggle with her sexuality as soon as she became aware of it herself - in Faraway Morning. Even though for much of the time we cannot see into Kat's head, and her motives are ambiguous, we can tell that she is uncomfortable and struggling with her identity and others' perceptions of her, even though she is not the main character or the focus for many of these chapters. Before Faraway Morning, her feelings for Paz or other not men were likely subconscious, or she was otherwise not focused on them.

I also think it's not a super huge deal for a young girl who admires men to decide she also likes girls. Kat is 14 and it's normal to discover new things about yourself when you are 14, even later. And it's not like realizing you like girls is a huge personality change or something, it's just discovering a facet of yourself that's been latent previously. There aren't always going to be a ton of hints about somebody's sexuality when they are still children.

I don't think it's necessary that we should be able to guess that she's not straight before she can, especially since she's not the main character and the majority of the chapters focus on Annie, and are even from her perspective. (This comic is actually not mainly about Kat's sexuality, even though it may feel that way during this chapter.) Tom didn't want to let on that she wasn't straight until more recently, and I think he did what was right for the story. I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on.

I don't think that a lesbian tomboy is a problem in herself, but in media and art it's just like an effemminate gay man: an overused stereotype. I don't think that Tom is doing that intentionally (I hope!), but still it makes me sad that one of the less stereotyped characters it's no more so "not stereotyped".
I don't think Tom is challenging more stereotypes, the opposite. Why, what stereotypes would be challenged by Kat being a lesbian?
Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not).

- Characters who challenge gender stereotypes are challenging stereotypes in and of themselves.

- Characters who are queer are challenging the sexuality norm.

So,

- Characters who are queer and challenging gender stereotypes are doing both at once.

The reason that the effeminate gay man and the butch lesbian stereotypes exist is that queer people often tend to also challenge gender role stereotypes in real life, and straight people sort of latch onto this concept with little understanding of it, which is why it's used a lot in gay characters who are portrayed insultingly poorly.

Kat, on the other hand, is a well thought out, sympathetic, important character, with a lot of depth besides her sexuality. Actual queer people find her relatable. Straight people find her relatable too. She did not become just a stereotype when she started liking people besides men.

The sexuality thing is important to her right now, but it's not at the center of her character. There are a lot of things about her that are more important to the story. That is not sloppy or lazy writing.

There are other queer characters in the work who defy these stereotypes you find so distasteful (virtually every other queer character) so it's not like Tom has to rely on them. I don't really understand why your stereotype thing is such an issue. Should there be no androgynous presenting queer women in media, even if they are done respectfully and realistically?

Queer characters are not common in fiction, and yet there are already lots of works that focus on straight men and women doing various things, including challenging gender roles. Here is wikipedia's list of tomboys in fiction. It is by no means exhaustive, and I'm not familiar with the majority of the characters listed, but I'd wager a minority of them have actually been established as queer.

This was a long thing. I'm sorry.

[SilverbackRon]

Holy...   15 pages of this.  It has to be some kind of record going on here.

Personally I am very happy with the development of Kat.  It seems very realistic and did I say Squeeeeee? 

There have just been too many posts in this thread for me to even hope to comment on the discussion, so I will limit myself to saying Thank You to snipergirl, Momo and others for sharing their personal experiences with us.  It is very much appreciated and many of your comments have been quite moving to me.

I will quote one recent post:

Nov 30, 2013 1:37:01 GMT chaosvii said:

I too am fond of tomboys and have dated them. I am not particularly disappointed that any given fictional tomboy finds herself to not be as straight as she initially assumed. I have assumed that Kat was straight, but upon seeing that she was accepting of Paz's request to date, I figured that both Kat and I had discovered something new about Kat sexuality.

As a hetero guy myself, I think this very much sums up my observations of Kat's journey of adolescent self-discovery.  Everyone starts out as a kid (you, me, Kat, everyone) and we grow up slowly and discover things about ourselves and others as we develop physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually; it is called personal growth.  I think Tom is handling this pretty well.  Better than I could, creatively speaking.  That is why he is the author and I am the reader/fanboy.

EDIT TO ADD -  For those looking for other examples of Kat/Paz just chillin together, there is this recent page too.  Just hanging out watching anime together. 

[Elysium]

I wonder if people complaing that "Kat is now a stereotypically tomboy lesbian" were only liking her before for her not being a stereotype...because it sure looks that her genius, technical abitlity, kindness, joyfulness....basically all that makes her a good fun character besides her sexual orientation just vanished. Jesus it's just ONE aspect of her character, how does she go from "a fun genius teenager" to "a butch lesbian stereotype" just by being into the ladies ? Her only purpose is just to defy a "stereotype", and if she don't she's wasted potential ? That's as lame as it is shallow.

[quinkgirl]

Nov 30, 2013 8:55:09 GMT SilverbackRon said:

Holy...   15 pages of this.  It has to be some kind of record going on here.

Of nonstop discussion without straying from the topic? ...That is pretty surprising.

I should probably have more to say about this.

[warrl]

Nov 30, 2013 14:25:59 GMT Elysium said:

I wonder if people complaing that "Kat is now a stereotypically tomboy lesbian" were only liking her before for her not being a stereotype...

The thing is, the stereotypical tomboy lesbian is the stereotypical tomboy and also a lesbian. So if she WERE the stereotypical tomboy lesbian (I don't think she is - she's much more geekgirl than tomboy, but she doesn't have the stereotypical geekgirl's social awkwardness), then she would have previously been a stereotype. And the remaining objection would only be to WHICH stereotype.

The surprising thing is how much Paz and Kat are alike. Paz is a bit more girly, but Kat can rock that when she wants to, and both wear lab coats a lot. They both are into highly technical fields where even when you're collaborating closely with someone you aren't necessarily physically near them. They both have a supernatural-seeming ability in their respective fields. They both are assisted in their work by robots whom they treat as people, and recognized as exceptional in their fields by non-human intelligences. Now all we need is for something in Kat's work to inspire Paz toward a solution to some problem, and we'll have a complete symmetry.

[chaosvii]

Nov 30, 2013 6:44:33 GMT brightside said:

About the hints: yes, after Chapter 34 they give you the possibility to think that maybe Kat likes girls too, the problem is that there are not any hints of interest until then (at least, I never saw anything in that direction but a lot in the opposite one) and that Kat starts thinking about it after being identified as a bi/lesbian lady. After that she tries to hide it (with the "girly girl" thing). More or less that's how I read Kat during the comic:

Chapters 1-34: Straight

34: Dialogue and misunderstanding with Paz, Kat starts thinking about herself

35-38: Kat tries to hide what happened with Paz and for doing so she acts more "girly" and becomes paranoid about things like comments and touching Annie

38-Zimmy reveals how Kat is scared and is trying to hide her true self . This can be read it in multiple ways: as "she is trying to make people stop thinking she is not a girl/she is not straight (by the way, stupid association) because of her appearance" or "she is trying to hide the truth to herself". In the end, Gamma (or Zimmy? It seems Zimmy to me!) tells her to fight her fears.

41- Letter, by the way now Kat is more relaxed.

42- Paz declares, Kat says "Okay"

44- They are going out together.

45- Kat has doubts about her relationship with Paz and tries to impress her and discover what exactly they are (friends or more?), but discovers that Paz had the same thoughts (probably) and they kiss (also Annie and creepy robots).

After chap.34 I think is all clear and well connected. So it was before chap.34.
Now, what I was talking about before was the passage between pre-34 and post-34, because I think is kind of strange that, if Kat is interested in girls, she never (and we never) had any hints at all. Everything said the exact opposite. So I think that her being a lesbian would be kind of absurd, and bisexuality, while more compatible, it would be still a little strange.
But yes, if we put Kat in Kinsey Scale as a 1 or 2 probably everything would have sense anyway (she is generally interested in dudes, but with Paz is different and she loves her), so I'm talking about 3 or more for being difficult to explain.

Regarding the Ch1-33 context of lacking hints. I interpret this as Kat not seeing any indications of liking girls. From her perspective I figure her thoughts might be consistent with "I mean I hang out with one all the time and there's no attraction there so why should I think that I'm attracted to any girls ever?"
I liken it to Paz's experience, she never considered it, but once she did, she couldn't dismiss it anymore, and now that there's this girl that maybe causing feelings, she's willing to see if those feelings lead to something great.

If I were approached with the question, in my stable age of adolescence-is-over-yay, I'd say "Girls only, I have trouble imagining what dude would compare." without having to reconsider, as no dudes have ever really done it for me. But Paz & Kat have some new feelings out of apparently nowhere so they would answer something like "Guys. Wait maybe not just guys? I mean, dudes are clearly great and they have been for a long time, but there's this one girl... and she's comparable... I don't think I can explain it yet."

When it comes to discovering one's sexuality during one's adolescence, life is strange. Liking dudes when you're 12 is no guarantee that you'll like dudes when you're 14, even though it works that way for most people, and liking girls when you're 12 doesn't preclude liking dudes more than girls (but still liking girls) by the time your hormones stop being so crazy.
I'm afraid I can only offer anecdotes as support for this claim as I have never looked up a study that examines the adolescence of those people that fall into alphabet soup of sexuality that isn't called straight. Here's a convenient quote from earlier in this thread from an individual that self-identifies as a lady that likes ladies:

Nov 25, 2013 10:25:38 GMT Momo said:

Kat being straight after all wouldn't make any sense. She has experienced physical and emotional attraction to at least one girl and therefore falls somewhere greater than 0 on the Kinsey scale. And I don't think you can count "crushes" (ie: Alistair) in the same category as actual physical relationships. For example: I had some furious crushes on guys in my preteens, but a little bit later when I tried kissing them I figured out pretty quickly that it did nothing for me.

On the flipside, my GF of 5 years and counting pretty much exclusively dated men before we met so there's always the cases of single target sexuality.

There's about a million ways to go with Kat's sexuality, but I very much doubt it's ever going to be a main focus of the comic (I honestly really prefer it that way). And based on what's happened so far I trust Tom to write and handle what is there well.

So really all I can say for sure is that "making sense" and "strange" are things that completely dependent on experience (which I also think is a big theme of this comic), and I err on the side of an perspective that says "life contains more complexities" when simpler explanations don't fit well enough.

[Nnelg]

So then, I think I've reached a better understanding of the situation.

SPOILER: Click to show

As far as my limited understanding goes, the idealized concept of romantic love does not specify a difference in gender. Therefore, the question becomes whether this occurs in reality.

Once again due to my lack of knowledge, I cannot make any sort of blanket statement out of my own authority. I can only make assessments on individual basis as to the nature of specific relationships.

(This corresponds to the resolutions of previous dilemmas I've tackled. Broad generalizations are rarely capable of accounting for circumstance, and seldom is a thing inherently wrong.)


The concept still unsettles me a bit. I think that's because I don't understand it, though; even if I can consciously accept it as a premise. (It's similar to standard romance in that regard, only magnified extensively.)

With that in mind, I can revise my answer to the opening question:


I dislike this entire 'Romance' plotline, as I feel it's usurping the 'Mystery'/'Fantasy' that got me engaged with the comic in the first place. It hurts that Renard's speech in the last page or two sounds like the author preaching using his character as a mouthpiece.

As for Kat's recent developments in sexuality, I think the reason why I dislike it may boil down to the fact that it's a change to a character whom I liked the way they were. Perhaps I'll come to accept it with time, as I've already started to do somewhat.

[brightside]

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

Nov 30, 2013 6:44:33 GMT brightside said:

I don't think that biased media could affect her, living her in a place that, like Reyne said, is more tollerant compared to the "outside".

Renard did say that, but Kat has shown on many occasions to be very aware of and invested in popular culture. She plays video games and watches movies that actually exist (Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Audio, Princess Mononoke, those bands she was talking to Aly about) so it stands to reason she has also been exposed to plenty of media that normalizes and romanticizes straight relationships, and portrays queer people as strange or undesirable. Also, the overwhelming majority of relationships that we know she has encountered are heterosexual. Zimmy and Gamma aren't, but they're also very strange. Shadow and Robot aren't, but they are very new and also not human. On the other side, there's heterosexual pairings all over the place. Even if the Court is slightly more tolerant of strange things than other places, heterosexual relationships are still what Kat must see as typical.

Yeah but she also lives in a place where "strange" is normality. Zimmy and Gamma are not so strange when compared to fairies, mithological beings, people able to teleport or "create order where there was none" etc., even if they are heterosexual. The overwhelming majority of relationships being heterosexual is obvious, but it's just a realistic thing. Also she fell in love with a bird-boy (and was attracted by somone like muut) so why should she feel different about homo/bisexuality?

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

She is also very concerned about being perceived of as weird, or she wouldn't have brought it up with Renard in the first place.

But she was not concerned about talking to Renard, for example. Maybe her fear of "being perceived of as weird" could depend from Annie running away (and being born "outside").

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

Her not mentioning it could be ok for making the other characters think she is straight, but we needed to have at least the possibility to guess that she was bi! (or not have completely opposite hints!) After all, even when Tom doesn't use thought bubbles we can see inside the mind of some characters (ex. Annie's hidden personality) or understand things from the situations. As readers we need to be able to do that. If you build a personality you cannot change it at will without a big reason, because it destroys the unity of the entire plot. Now if Annie becomes a super extrovert without reason do you think it would be ok?

As far as I understand, Tom began portraying Kat's struggle with her sexuality as soon as she became aware of it herself - in Faraway Morning. Even though for much of the time we cannot see into Kat's head, and her motives are ambiguous, we can tell that she is uncomfortable and struggling with her identity and others' perceptions of her, even though she is not the main character or the focus for many of these chapters. Before Faraway Morning, her feelings for Paz or other not men were likely subconscious, or she was otherwise not focused on them.

That's the point: before Faraday Morning there were not any hints about something that would have become an important part of the story. It just all starts after the awkard dialogue with Paz, and the way she becomes aware of it it's absurd (just because Paz thinks she is a lesbian). Even if those were subconscious we should must have been in some way able to guess that. Instead, being her an extrovert girl (so not so difficult to read like Annie) we had only hints of her being just (and a lot) interested in boys.

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

I also think it's not a super huge deal for a young girl who admires men to decide she also likes girls. Kat is 14 and it's normal to discover new things about yourself when you are 14, even later. And it's not like realizing you like girls is a huge personality change or something, it's just discovering a facet of yourself that's been latent previously. There aren't always going to be a ton of hints about somebody's sexuality when they are still children.

I don't think it's necessary that we should be able to guess that she's not straight before she can, especially since she's not the main character and the majority of the chapters focus on Annie, and are even from her perspective. (This comic is actually not mainly about Kat's sexuality, even though it may feel that way during this chapter.) Tom didn't want to let on that she wasn't straight until more recently, and I think he did what was right for the story. I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on.

I don't think it's a huge deal too (nor something that should change someone's personality), but I don't think a discovery like that can be so fast (it never happened to her to find a girl interesting before?) and, more importantly, it can start in that way. If, instead, it can be something totally new (she just "start liking girls while not liking them before", but I don't know if that is even possible, at least if now she is a 3 or more on Kinsey Scale) still how this part of the plot starts is absurd, to the point that it makes everything strange. If she just started to notice girls it would have been ok, but that she starts questioning her sexuality after someone else did it (because someone else did it) it's, from my point of view, bad writing. Of course she could be generally interested in boys and maybe (if it's not just a "I was not sure" thing) Paz is an "exception" (Kat is a 1 or at max a 2, 1 being more suitable). Her being just interested in girls or more in girls than boys it would not have any sense now, that's what I'm saying.

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

I don't think that a lesbian tomboy is a problem in herself, but in media and art it's just like an effemminate gay man: an overused stereotype. I don't think that Tom is doing that intentionally (I hope!), but still it makes me sad that one of the less stereotyped characters it's no more so "not stereotyped".
I don't think Tom is challenging more stereotypes, the opposite. Why, what stereotypes would be challenged by Kat being a lesbian?
Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not).

- Characters who challenge gender stereotypes are challenging stereotypes in and of themselves.

- Characters who are queer are challenging the sexuality norm.

So,

- Characters who are queer and challenging gender stereotypes are doing both at once.

The reason that the effeminate gay man and the butch lesbian stereotypes exist is that queer people often tend to also challenge gender role stereotypes in real life, and straight people sort of latch onto this concept with little understanding of it, which is why it's used a lot in gay characters who are portrayed insultingly poorly.

Kat, on the other hand, is a well thought out, sympathetic, important character, with a lot of depth besides her sexuality. Actual queer people find her relatable. Straight people find her relatable too. She did not become just a stereotype when she started liking people besides men.

The sexuality thing is important to her right now, but it's not at the center of her character. There are a lot of things about her that are more important to the story. That is not sloppy or lazy writing.

There are other queer characters in the work who defy these stereotypes you find so distasteful (virtually every other queer character) so it's not like Tom has to rely on them. I don't really understand why your stereotype thing is such an issue. Should there be no androgynous presenting queer women in media, even if they are done respectfully and realistically?

Queer characters are not common in fiction, and yet there are already lots of works that focus on straight men and women doing various things, including challenging gender roles. Here is wikipedia's list of tomboys in fiction. It is by no means exhaustive, and I'm not familiar with the majority of the characters listed, but I'd wager a minority of them have actually been established as queer.

Well, queer characters are pretty common in comics now (webcomics of course, but also see Marvel comics and their young superheroes for an example), but that is not the point.
The problem is that fusing two streotype-breaking types of characters does not makes a better one but the opposite, at least in this occasion. The lesbian-tomboy stereotype (I'm talking in general now, not about Kat) creates 2 prejudices:

1- People who are different from the "gender standards" can not be straight.
2- If (1) is right, hence queer people are someway "different" compared to heterosexual people in something that is not just sexuality.

Both wrong, of course. Now, as I said, Kat being queer would not necessarily make the stereotype stronger for being a tomboy (because there are also lesbian/bi tomboys, of course), even if this page (What, Zimmy?) and the same idea of a +5 Headband of Straightness it doesn't help, but Kat being straight was breaking it.
Of course,her having some stereotyped caractheristics does not means that she is only the "tomboy-lesbian". Like you said, the sexuality thing is it's not at the center of her character. It's a thing that matters outside of the story, and it could matter only for me (as I said "Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not"). Also:

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

Nov 27, 2013 6:17:02 GMT Momo said:

I never once used the word homophobe, but ok bro.

Also, just a hint: if multiple people in multiple places have told you that what you're saying is homophobic, maybe you should stop and examine the things you are saying and the reasons behind them, rather than going on the defensive and playing the victim. There are a lot of things in this comic that could be called unrealistic (a lot more unrealistic than a lot of gay people in once place), and the fact that this is the only thing you object to out of all those things speaks volumes. 

Also, saying you're neutral on something like the issue of homosexuality (or race if we wanna hark back to that metaphor) is not a get out of jail free card. "I don't care" is as much a part of the problem as hate is. 

Reddit is not exactly a place when you can express your opinions without insults because yes, they are very fast on applying labels. If you lived in a town full of bigots that insulted you for your opinions (or if you just wrote on some boards of 4chan or tumblr) do you think you should stop just because everyone says the same thing? Majority is not always right.
And someone can be interested in a social issue without wanting to see it always and everywhere, especially if that could mean a loss of quality in a work of art and EVEN MORE if it's preaching (BTW I don't think Tom has become a preacher, but maybe he was influenced by what's happening in other webcomics).

Well, bye.

Of course it works like that for me too (Tom doesn't need to create a story to modify society, but a good story).

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

This was a long thing. I'm sorry.

No problem, as you can see it took me a lot more time!
(I was sleeping and working)

Nov 30, 2013 7:52:42 GMT Elysium said:

Nov 30, 2013 2:50:29 GMT brightside said:

homosexuality=what?
bisexuality=plausible even if it's very strange that somone like her could not have ANY hints before.

Homosexuality or bisexuality doesn't need to have hints, there are men or women who realize their homosexuality after being married with the opposite sex
Why don't you let stuff just happens ?

Yes in this kind of work it needs it (if she is not a 1). Nobody "discovers it" after a lot of years (if it's an adult), they just accept it. Happening? What do you mean? That someone can wake up one morning and out of the blue discover that he or she likes a lot of people of his/her own sex without having any idea before?

Nov 30, 2013 14:25:59 GMT Elysium said:

I wonder if people complaing that "Kat is now a stereotypically tomboy lesbian" were only liking her before for her not being a stereotype...because it sure looks that her genius, technical abitlity, kindness, joyfulness....basically all that makes her a good fun character besides her sexual orientation just vanished. Jesus it's just ONE aspect of her character, how does she go from "a fun genius teenager" to "a butch lesbian stereotype" just by being into the ladies ? Her only purpose is just to defy a "stereotype", and if she don't she's wasted potential ? That's as lame as it is shallow.

Like I wrote up there, I never said that. Kat was and still is my favorite character (on par with coyote), her breaking a stereotype was just an added value to her personality and genius (and was an added value outside the plot, because in the story her having more or less stereotyped characteristics is meaningless). Her sexuality does not have any influence on her being a good character, it just seems incoherent with how she was before chapter 34.

Nov 30, 2013 21:47:25 GMT chaosvii said:

Regarding the Ch1-33 context of lacking hints. I interpret this as Kat not seeing any indications of liking girls. From her perspective I figure her thoughts might be consistent with "I mean I hang out with one all the time and there's no attraction there so why should I think that I'm attracted to any girls ever?"
I liken it to Paz's experience, she never considered it, but once she did, she couldn't dismiss it anymore, and now that there's this girl that maybe causing feelings, she's willing to see if those feelings lead to something great.

If I were approached with the question, in my stable age of adolescence-is-over-yay, I'd say "Girls only, I have trouble imagining what dude would compare." without having to reconsider, as no dudes have ever really done it for me. But Paz & Kat have some new feelings out of apparently nowhere so they would answer something like "Guys. Wait maybe not just guys? I mean, dudes are clearly great and they have been for a long time, but there's this one girl... and she's comparable... I don't think I can explain it yet."

When it comes to discovering one's sexuality during one's adolescence, life is strange. Liking dudes when you're 12 is no guarantee that you'll like dudes when you're 14, even though it works that way for most people, and liking girls when you're 12 doesn't preclude liking dudes more than girls (but still liking girls) by the time your hormones stop being so crazy.
I'm afraid I can only offer anecdotes as support for this claim as I have never looked up a study that examines the adolescence of those people that fall into alphabet soup of sexuality that isn't called straight. Here's a convenient quote from earlier in this thread from an individual that self-identifies as a lady that likes ladies:

Nov 25, 2013 10:25:38 GMT Momo said:

Kat being straight after all wouldn't make any sense. She has experienced physical and emotional attraction to at least one girl and therefore falls somewhere greater than 0 on the Kinsey scale. And I don't think you can count "crushes" (ie: Alistair) in the same category as actual physical relationships. For example: I had some furious crushes on guys in my preteens, but a little bit later when I tried kissing them I figured out pretty quickly that it did nothing for me.

On the flipside, my GF of 5 years and counting pretty much exclusively dated men before we met so there's always the cases of single target sexuality.

There's about a million ways to go with Kat's sexuality, but I very much doubt it's ever going to be a main focus of the comic (I honestly really prefer it that way). And based on what's happened so far I trust Tom to write and handle what is there well.

So really all I can say for sure is that "making sense" and "strange" are things that completely dependent on experience (which I also think is a big theme of this comic), and I err on the side of an perspective that says "life contains more complexities" when simpler explanations don't fit well enough.

Ok, but Kat being interested in girls and only in girls or girls more than boys is different to Paz being an/the "exception", and Kat having a "single target sexuality" (that I said, it would be possible). And "liking dudes before and than stop" it would be ok if it were just "crushes" (with no physical attraction), but otherwise for what I know it would be impossible. So in that case I think I agree with you, but not with Momo, at least not about the impossibility of Kat being straight. In fact:

Nov 25, 2013 10:25:38 GMT Momo said:

Kat being straight after all wouldn't make any sense. She has experienced physical and emotional attraction to at least one girl and therefore falls somewhere greater than 0 on the Kinsey scale. And I don't think you can count "crushes" (ie: Alistair) in the same category as actual physical relationships. For example: I had some furious crushes on guys in my preteens, but a little bit later when I tried kissing them I figured out pretty quickly that it did nothing for me.

1- They only kissed.
2- She was clearly attracted to boys and not just in a "platonic" way.
To me, both possibilities are open.

I know that everything is relative to experience, but I think here is more of a "how Kat was wrote until that arc" thing.

[zimmyhoo]

Woo I only read one page of this, and I'm out of here. I really don't want to see this side of the fandom, sooooo Ima back to my theory posts.
I'll just go... and ^{wait for comments}

[lit]

Dec 1, 2013 1:53:34 GMT brightside said:

Zimmy and Gamma are not so strange when compared to fairies, mithological beings, people able to teleport or "create order where there was none" etc., even if they are heterosexual. The overwhelming majority of relationships being heterosexual is obvious, but it's just a realistic thing. Also she fell in love with a bird-boy (and was attracted by somone like muut) so why should she feel different about homo/bisexuality?

Kat is used to a lot of strange things being portrayed as normal but she is not used to homosexuality being presented as normal. Otherwise she would not have angsted about it (with the headband) for the several chapters leading up to Paz asking her out. Zimmy and Gamma are strange even by court standards, and Zimmy has always been extremely rude to Kat. My impression is that Kat does not have a lot of access to portrayals of homosexuality as positive or normal.

She was attracted to Aly before she realized he was a flipping bird. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with Muut, but blushing because there's suddenly a naked flipping muscular man chest a foot in front of your little girl face is different from being sexually attracted to someone. Kat's bird thing is often presented humorously. I don't think she was taking it all that seriously herself.

Dec 1, 2013 1:53:34 GMT brightside said:

Nov 30, 2013 8:34:19 GMT lit said:

She is also very concerned about being perceived of as weird, or she wouldn't have brought it up with Renard in the first place.

But she was not concerned about talking to Renard, for example.

She was concerned about it though. She has been "keeping this secret for a while now". She's been going through this crisis for several months and hasn't told a soul, she's not even really opened up to Paz about it - until now.

She kissed Paz, and it was great, a confirmation that her feelings were real and not something she was imagining. Furthermore, Annie saw her, so it's pretty much out whether she likes it or not.

Dec 1, 2013 1:53:34 GMT brightside said:

That's the point: before Faraday Morning there were not any hints about something that would have become an important part of the story. It just all starts after the awkard dialogue with Paz, and the way she becomes aware of it it's absurd (just because Paz thinks she is a lesbian). Even if those were subconscious we should must have been in some way able to guess that. Instead, being her an extrovert girl (so not so difficult to read like Annie) we had only hints of her being just (and a lot) interested in boys.

You would probably think the story of my realizing I liked girls is absurd too. It's easy to assume you are straight when you are young, especially if everything around you reinforces it as normal.

It is, in fact, super common to be in denial about the reality about your feelings towards someone if they contradict with your own idea of your sexuality. You can be almost entirely unaware of things until something forces you to confront it. It's not always this grand gradual realization. There's got to be something that flips a switch. Sometimes it's just a bigger or smaller switch that's flipped.

I had a friend who thought he was straight until he was sixteen. He had crushes on girls, which he was relatively vocal about. He even had a girlfriend. She broke it off after a few months because he wasn't interested in touching her, but he never realized anything was wrong between them until she broke up with him. Other people in this thread have mentioned similar experiences.

Kat did not realize how her advances towards Paz had romantic overtones until Paz called her on it, because it hadn't occurred to her that her feelings for Paz could be anything other than the sort of relationship she'd had with girls in the past. I don't think that's absurd or unrealistic.

Dec 1, 2013 1:53:34 GMT brightside said:

I don't think it's a huge deal too (nor something that should change someone's personality), but I don't think a discovery like that can be so fast (it never happened to her to find a girl interesting before?) and, more importantly, it can start in that way. If, instead, it can be something totally new (she just "start liking girls while not liking them before", but I don't know if that is even possible, at least if now she is a 3 or more on Kinsey Scale) still how this part of the plot starts is absurd, to the point that it makes everything strange. If she just started to notice girls it would have been ok, but that she starts questioning her sexuality after someone else did it (because someone else did it) it's, from my point of view, bad writing. Of course she could be generally interested in boys and maybe (if it's not just a "I was not sure" thing) Paz is an "exception" (Kat is a 1 or at max a 2, 1 being more suitable). Her being just interested in girls or more in girls than boys it would not have any sense now, that's what I'm saying.

I don't know if there's much more I can say without repeating myself.

I'm sure that there was a logical progression in Kat's head, but we were not shown it as it happened because she is not the main character. Tom will reveal things as he sees fit. He decided it was not important to foreshadow Kat's sexuality more than he did. When I go back and read through the comic, which I've done a lot in the past few weeks, I find that Kat's story can be consistent with sexuality narratives I've heard in the past, from real people, so I'm satisfied with it.

Let me just reiterate that she is young. Things are still very new and confusing for her.

Dec 1, 2013 1:53:34 GMT brightside said:

Well, queer characters are pretty common in comics now (webcomics of course, but also see Marvel comics and their young superheroes for an example), but that is not the point.
The problem is that fusing two streotype-breaking types of characters does not makes a better one but the opposite, at least in this occasion. The lesbian-tomboy stereotype (I'm talking in general now, not about Kat) creates 2 prejudices:

1- People who are different from the "gender standards" can not be straight.
2- If (1) is right, hence queer people are someway "different" compared to heterosexual people in something that is not just sexuality.

Both wrong, of course. Now, as I said, Kat being queer would not necessarily make the stereotype stronger for being a tomboy (because there are also lesbian/bi tomboys, of course), even if this page (What, Zimmy?) and the same idea of a +5 Headband of Straightness it doesn't help, but Kat being straight was breaking it.

All right? I just don't think it's that important. I know a lot of real life queer people who challenge gender stereotypes and they are neat and I like seeing them represented. There's a lot more to these people than the stereotypes you're talking about, and I think Tom is portraying that with Kat.

Straight women who do things that are considered to be in the male domain are portrayed in the media fairly often. Straight people of all sorts are flipping everywhere. There may be more queer characters in comics now than there have in the past, but that doesn't mean there's a lot of good queer representation in the media as a whole, especially in more mainstream works.

Also...

Dec 1, 2013 1:53:34 GMT brightside said:

Nov 30, 2013 7:52:42 GMT Elysium said:

Homosexuality or bisexuality doesn't need to have hints, there are men or women who realize their homosexuality after being married with the opposite sex
Why don't you let stuff just happens ?

Yes in this kind of work it needs it (if she is not a 1). Nobody "discovers it" after a lot of years (if it's an adult), they just accept it. Happening? What do you mean? That someone can wake up one morning and out of the blue discover that he or she likes a lot of people of his/her own sex without having any idea before?

Apparently I'm nobody then? I'm not sure if there's much else I can say to you.

[Señor Goose]

Dec 1, 2013 0:11:59 GMT Nnelg said:

I dislike this entire 'Romance' plotline, as I feel it's usurping the 'Mystery'/'Fantasy' that got me engaged with the comic in the first place. It hurts that Renard's speech in the last page or two sounds like the author preaching using his character as a mouthpiece.

Fair enough, this is a pretty sudden intrusion into the plot. It was set in motion a half a dozen chapter ago and took until now to come to a head, though.

Dec 1, 2013 0:11:59 GMT Nnelg said:

As for Kat's recent developments in sexuality, I think the reason why I dislike it may boil down to the fact that it's a change to a character whom I liked the way they were. Perhaps I'll come to accept it with time, as I've already started to do somewhat.

...So close. While it is admittedly a pretty sudden 'change', it really doesn't change anything. Before it was Kat, now it's Kat +gay. However, orientation is just another trait that falls into the list of things that is Kat.

[spritznar]

Dec 1, 2013 0:11:59 GMT Nnelg said:

i dislike this entire 'Romance' plotline, as I feel it's usurping the 'Mystery'/'Fantasy' that got me engaged with the comic in the first place. It hurts that Renard's speech in the last page or two sounds like the author preaching using his character as a mouthpiece.

As for Kat's recent developments in sexuality, I think the reason why I dislike it may boil down to the fact that it's a change to a character whom I liked the way they were. Perhaps I'll come to accept it with time, as I've already started to do somewhat.

Yeah, I can agree Reynard's speech seems a little excessive, but I think that's mostly cause it's gone on for a week I think when read in book context it will feel a lot less intrusive to the general storyline.

Character changes are always annoying when they don't line up with the head canon we've built for our favorites. (Last year one of my favorite tv characters got a surprise secret past and the suggestion that her name of the last 3 seasons was actually a pseudonym. She's always been a mystery so it didn't actually contradict anything... but it didn't go over very well in the fandom)