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TicToc
Aug 3, 2007 23:17:17 GMT
Post by Count Casimir on Aug 3, 2007 23:17:17 GMT
The TicTocs seem to be sovereign of any control by the school. Perhaps they are the original inhabitants of the Court; a TicToc Kingdom of sorts. When they died, they extended the school by branching out!
And if they're sovereign, Ysengrin made a mistake coming to the humans.
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TicToc
Aug 8, 2007 6:25:45 GMT
Post by spritznar on Aug 8, 2007 6:25:45 GMT
i don't necessarily think the tictocs are independent. i think they may be autonomous but i'd say someone built them for some specific task or purpose. i definitely agree that Ysengrin came to the wrong people if he wanted to complain about the birds, unless there's something the headmaster's not telling his employees.
as i've just now joined this thread i have a lot of back-comments. i'll try to restrain myself to avoid being too annoying -.-;
one thing i don't think was addressed earlier though was why did the tictocs drop annie IN the river? i mean, even if they couldn't fly her back to the other side (either because they weren't strong enough or wanted to avoid the sword lady or something) why couldn't they have set her down on shore?
ok, another thing, how was the tictoc injured while saving annie? i mean, that looks like something hit it or something but they were in the middle of empty air when they grabbed annie and didn't get near anything in any of the panels i remember. i'm wondering if perhaps the tictoc annie found was injured/killed before she got there and she just assumed it happened during the fall (leading all of us to assume with her). i mean, if you thought it was a real bird at first it wouldn't occur to you that it could have been there for a while because it would have decayed, but if it's a robot it could have been there like that for any amount of time and remain relatively unchanged. of course for that theory to work then annie's dissection would have had to trigger the growth and rooting....
ye gods, someone make me stop talking. sorry most of that isn't really important, it just piqued my curiosity
one last though, seriously this is the last one; does anyone think it possible that the tictocs might be robots built by robots (like the autons in alien resurrection)?
edit: sorry about my nearly unintelligible sentences. i'll try to be more grammatically concise in the future.
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TicToc
Aug 8, 2007 13:37:26 GMT
Post by Yin on Aug 8, 2007 13:37:26 GMT
About them dropping Annie in the river, I think maybe, since they probably weren't strong enough to get her to the other side of the cliff they would have had to drop her. So she was dropped in the river as opposed to either of the banks because, well, no splat. You know?
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TicToc
Aug 8, 2007 21:37:08 GMT
Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 8, 2007 21:37:08 GMT
Perhaps the TicTocs were programmed not to land on, or fly too close to the the Forest side to avoid provoking the Gillitie residents. The TicTocs knew they absolutely couldn't set Annie down on or near the Court side because of the Sword Girl, so the only option left to them was to drop Annie as close to the Forest side as they were allowed to fly.
As for the dead TicToc, i subscribe to the theory that it died because its motor or power source was overloaded while breaking Annie's fall.
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TicToc
Aug 8, 2007 21:45:13 GMT
Post by spritznar on Aug 8, 2007 21:45:13 GMT
i did consider the engine overload theory but still wondered about the broken wing. that could have happened in the crash landing though.
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hajo
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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TicToc
Mar 14, 2008 18:36:11 GMT
Post by hajo on Mar 14, 2008 18:36:11 GMT
So far we've seen three different kinds of robots in the Court, We have seen: - Type "S" - Pages 9, 206 ("Standard" ?)
- TicToc - Page 128
- BoxBot - Page 205 (Floor cleaner?)
- DoorBot -Page 207
- AdminBot - Page 212
- GuardBot - Page 219
- HorseBot - Page 323
- BarberBot - Page 326
I think, the TicTocs come from an organization outside GC, e.g. government, or GC's insurance-company.
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TicToc
Mar 26, 2008 21:26:26 GMT
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 26, 2008 21:26:26 GMT
I think, the TicTocs come from an organization outside GC, e.g. government, or GC's insurance-company. That would seem to be the case, or at least outside the formal command structure, assuming everyone in that reception scene in Fangs of Summertime was telling the truth. Interesting that the TicTocs remain passive observers unless Antimony's in danger and they're usually watching her. There may be several people in the Court who'd like to keep a thousand inconspicuous eyes on the various things that transpire inside its walls. Besides Kat I can only think of one character in GC who's skilled enough in Court technology to build these things, prone to going off and acting on his own no matter what the authorities wanted or what anyone else thought, and who would want to watch over and protect Antimony. Still, there may be characters that haven't been introduced yet with similar interests, as little Antimony's gathered quite a powerful clique around her and is important in her own right even if she never becomes Court medium... Leaving aside all her other talented friends, with just Ren. bound to her orders she's still quite dangerous... but the TicTocs have been watching over her from before she had any friends at GC, right? So unless Kat's built them in secret or there's another player who figures prominently in Antimony's backstory waiting in the wings (heh) I think we're down to only one suspect for maker of the Thousand Eyes.
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TicToc
Mar 26, 2008 22:17:31 GMT
Post by Mezzaphor on Mar 26, 2008 22:17:31 GMT
I doubt the TicTocs are "usually watching Annie", considering that the Court staff immediately recognized them. And the fact that Gamma has a name for them suggests that she knows more about them than any other character yet. I suspect the impression that the birds are shadowing Annie simply comes from the fact that the story is told from her perspective, so we aren't going to see all the times that other people run into the birds when Annie isn't around. As for the theory that Anthony built the birds: there has been no mention of any technical aptitude on his part. He's a surgeon. Not enough to disprove the theory, but I consider it unlikely. My wild speculation is that the TicTocs work for the Men in Black from Zimmy's flashback.
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TicToc
Mar 27, 2008 0:32:16 GMT
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 27, 2008 0:32:16 GMT
We recently found out that Anthony C. falls harshly on the "science" side of the whole magic/science split (#369). If Antimony's dad's abilities are solely surgical then I'd expect a bit more alarm from the other subjects of the Court when they learn that he's gone rogue and invisible to do whatever he thinks must be done now that the Wood's restless again.
Then again a vivisection spree might explain why GC appears so empty sometimes. That might also explain the fact that nobody wants to talk about him to Antimony.
You're right, it's quite possible that we've been given the false impression that the TicTocs are watching Antimony specifically because the story is shown from her point of view. If they are doing recon it'd make sense that they'd be hanging around in various places that an antisocial young lady might want to go. Still, they did gang up and save Antimony even at the cost of one of their own, and they have apparently been cagey enough that none of the other Court members have been able to capture one for study, so I don't think I'm making an impossible leap of logic with my theory.
Ah, by the way I'm not suggesting that Zim/Gam's name for the Tocs is the official one that their builder uses, I'm just guessing that it's her shorthand for them because of their function.
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TicToc
Jun 18, 2008 9:31:31 GMT
Post by lorem ipsum on Jun 18, 2008 9:31:31 GMT
Apologies for reviving this thread -- but I've just had the oddest thought, and I hope someone will have a better time with it than I am.
Okay, the preface:
The TicTocs, vaguely organic looking things with scientific internals, wires and stuff.
Robot, right now, is in a body with similar eyes. And although it's got a key on its back, it's obviously got electronics (or I assume as much, as Robot is a chip at the moment, and would need to be docked to something). Robot's body is also a fairly accurate representation of genetic modifications going on in the real world -- ears on mice.
Jones (who may or may not be a robot), has said in the past that she's never seen such self-modification as Ysengrin's done to himself. To which the dean replied that coming from her, that was a concern.
And all of those little (probably unrelated bits), and some comments in this thread lead me to the idea of androids. More specifically, biological organisms augmented with robotic (or, maybe, treelimb) technology.
A bit of a melding of the court and the forest, if you will, Androids. Nature and Science living together in one body. Probably not really accepted by either (Which would explain why, if she is an android, Jones isn't a perfect fit for a medium. She may understand both worlds, but she might not be able to successfully mediate if both sides are naturally bigoted against her.)
Is it really, really wild to think that maybe there's the Court (science and technology), the Forest (nature and magic), and some third power (that, for better or for worse, combines the two into biological machinery).
The TicTocs are the colors of Jones' hair and skin, and even her sharp hair matches their beaks.
Um.
Yeah.
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TicToc
Jun 18, 2008 11:33:12 GMT
Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 18, 2008 11:33:12 GMT
Regarding magic, neither side has a monopoly on it. The Court employs magicians (Kat's parents) and teaches many students who have extra-normal talents. I think the real difference between the Court and the Wood on the issue of magic is that the Court tries to explain it, while the Wood follows Ethereal Tenet and considers "It just does, okay?" an adequate explanation.
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TicToc
Jul 1, 2008 0:28:43 GMT
Post by Tierra Y Libertad on Jul 1, 2008 0:28:43 GMT
Regarding magic, neither side has a monopoly on it. The Court employs magicians (Kat's parents) and teaches many students who have extra-normal talents. I think the real difference between the Court and the Wood on the issue of magic is that the Court tries to explain it, while the Wood follows Ethereal Tenet and considers "It just does, okay?" an adequate explanation. Yes, in Tamora Pierce's Circle of Magic books this was phrased as academic magic vs. ambient magic. Academic magic was ruled by specific signs and equations, while ambient magic was just there, inborn with a specific magician. Remember that even in our own world, being a surgeon or other form of doctor is not the only work they do. They shuffle paperwork, they do research, they publish research, and other things that do not always directly involve patient contact, but are related to their job. Anthony may also just do the gadget-making stuff as a hobby, not something he is really paid for.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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TicToc
Jul 16, 2008 18:48:22 GMT
Post by Sadie on Jul 16, 2008 18:48:22 GMT
Randomly jumping in on this topic, since I haven't seen this suggested:
The Tic Tocs are extensions of the court itself, which is "alive" in much the same way the forest is. They act as an alarm system when something that might harm the court comes too close, but do so independently of anyone's direction. What they observe may be relayed to some other storage/display device intended for surveillance, but no human/non-human organics that live in the court have anything to do with it.
When a Tic Toc becomes injured, it "seeds" itself in much the same way plant seeds do. This seed can grow into a new addition to the court, provided there is enough material to be found in the surrounding environment. This is part of how the court has been able to grow so large and why so many parts seem to operate independently of it's organic inhabitants. It wasn't built; it just grew that way.
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Boxbot
New Member
Le robot terrible.
Posts: 14
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TicToc
Sept 5, 2008 0:02:34 GMT
Post by Boxbot on Sept 5, 2008 0:02:34 GMT
These are all very good arguments, but I find myself thinking of combinations of several of them:
1) Tic-Tocs are definitely technological, which is the Court's speciality, however no one in the Court has knowledge of where they come from or their purpose (If we believe what we're told so far).
2) According to Red, Ysengrin didn't seem surprised at the Tic-Toc, indeed she describes him as going "Right to it." and burying it, which seems to have lead to it's "seeding," which shows some familiarity with them. However, Ysengrin also jumped to Anthony Carver planting it, and seemed genuinely upset when this was disproved.
Now, here's the theory I've arrived at: 1) Someone Court-Trained created the Tic-Tocs, which watch over the Court. 2) Ysengrin dislikes the court, and shows knowledge of these birds. 3) The reason for these birds watching the Court is that the person who made them is a Spy. 4) Ysengrin works with this Spy (as General) planning an attack against the Court. (His language, especially "infect the forest" and general antagonist attitude point towards this as his goal.) 5) This Spy sent the Tic-Tocs to save Antimony, which shows some interest in her well-being.
Now, personally, I don't see Anthony as being this "Spy." While a specific study of Science works towards this (Learning the enemy's weaknesses and strengths) and being emotionally distant (Not wanting to get attached to the enemy) it doesn't explain his relationship with Surma (Unless she sided with him, in which case why send her to the Court? Why leave her friends there? Being a Medium might have shifted her towards the Forest, but this seems a large shift away).
Now, while Anthony could be in a third faction, mixing etherical tenets and science (doesn't question the magic, but use it to support science) why would Ysengrim know about the bird (both it's location and what to do with it)? Unless, of course, Ysengrin is part of the third faction, attempting to use it for his own goals.
No, I think Anthony isn't related to the Tic-Tocs, which I see as connected to an attempt by Ysengrin to force a conflict between the Forest and the Court (the eventual goal being to reclaim the Court for the Forest).
Then again, Coyote does say she can't trust the people of the Court, but why? If there were some plan whose aim was to end the Forest and old etheric tenets and bring Science to firm control, I could see not only Anthony as the Spy, but Surma's defection, and why she sent her daughter there (long, intricate plan theories go here).
Really, there are so many possibilites at the moment it's a bit of a mess trying to figure out exactly where to go with it. I need more information. Perhaps this recent "experiment" will clear things up. Or not.
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TicToc
Sept 6, 2008 0:36:11 GMT
Post by fuzzyone on Sept 6, 2008 0:36:11 GMT
There's another theory that I haven't seen. There's a split between the court and the forest side of things. Personally, I see the reaction of the buried Tictoc as being something akin to the Lamp Post in C. S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia. To refresh those who may not remember the story, or may not know it, it goes like thus: In 'The Magician's Nephew, we see the creation of Narnia. The world is AWASH with lifegiving energies and magic. When The White Witch Stabs a piece of a Lamp Post she'd been using as a weapon into the ground, It actually took root and Grew. Similarly, Some gold and silver coins fell from the 'Magician's' pocket, and similarly turned into gold and silver trees. Connection to Gunnerkrigg: The forest side, where we found Annie, Is the side of deep, Old Magic, Old Life. The reaction of the tictoc, once buried, may have been due to the lifegiving magics of the Forest causing the components of the Tictoc to Grow and Change. Similarly, Gunnerkrigg Court is HUGE. It is a Sprawling city that goes for miles in virtually all directions. I believe the emergence of the court happened similarly to how the Tictoc started to Sprout and Grow. Because where would humans living in the middle of an enchanted wood get building materials and equipment for an Undertaking as MASSIVE as Gunnerkrigg Court? The Divide at the Annan Waters may have merely been The last ditch effort of the Forest to HALT the expansion of the court as it deprived it of a direction to expand. The Bridge is artificial, And special steps may have been made to keep the Court's influence from continuing to push from the point of contact. Students don't get to the school Via Gillitie Wood. They arrive from other places, other directions. I think, perhaps, the lifegiving energy of What used to be the wood was either eventually used by the court and ran out as most of the court is cold stone and steel, instead of living things like we see on the Wood side of things, Or it simply ran out of 'Magic' ground to grow on. If we look at the growth in the wood: Seen here, From my theory, and what is already known about the birds, I deduce several things. First, We see at the center of the growth two antennae, one for Broadcasting (the tower-like one to the left) and one for receiving (The Satellite Dish) transmissions. It's not hard to see tht the birds are meant to be some form of Unobtrusive observation, a surveillance system. To do that, they would need to be able to transmit what they see, and receive instructions and directions (The order to save Annie). We see lights on some of the machinery, implying it's receiving power from somewhere. My theory is the Batteries for the Tictoc took root, and are powering the device, but, due to the influence of the Wood's magic, have become much larger and more powerful. The Cables burrowing into the surrounding area are harder to place, save with the expanse of wires growing and seeking to network outward, and perhaps even seeking a way to pull in more power. Now, I'm not Tom, so I wouldn't take this as gospel, but it's where my mind is leading with all this. Also, remember: No one was particularly surprised/questioned that a Robotic bird, when left alone on the Forest side of the Annan Waters grew and developed into something that could Damage the cliff face. Just my thoughts on the whole thing.
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TicToc
Sept 6, 2008 0:46:12 GMT
Post by todd on Sept 6, 2008 0:46:12 GMT
I'm a long-time fan of the Chronicles of Narnia, but I hadn't thought of the similarities of the Tic-Toc's fate with the lamp-post's origins before now. Thanks for bringing that up, fuzzyone.
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TicToc
Sept 7, 2008 20:29:41 GMT
Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 7, 2008 20:29:41 GMT
Because where would humans living in the middle of an enchanted wood get building materials and equipment for an Undertaking as MASSIVE as Gunnerkrigg Court? The Divide at the Annan Waters may have merely been The last ditch effort of the Forest to HALT the expansion of the court as it deprived it of a direction to expand. The court appears to have been around for hundreds of years and at some point they gained access to robot labor; also as a royal court they would have access to money and resources from the rest of the kingdom. GC makes me imagine how built-up Europe would look like if there weren't wars to knock things down. That aside your main point makes much sense! It explains why new students have to die on the Forest side to enter GC, why the ghost on the Court side didn't reincarnate (or whatever) as a student, and it also explains why the Tic-Tocs guided Antimony down on the Forest side instead of the Court side like she asked them to. That way if she died she'd return to GC in some form! (edit) I didn't make the connection at first but one of the strange things about GC is that there is no graffiti anywhere. I've been to some older campuses here in the USA and graffiti abounds everywhere and in the most unlikely places, I would assume that boarding schools in the UK have a similar amount or more. Before I thought that perhaps robots were taking care of any damage around the Court. Now I wonder if the buildings are healing themselves. (/edit) PS: Boxbot- You're forgetting that Ysengrin had that disabled bird to examine before it grew into a whatzit; he could know it to be Court technology without inside info. He may have buried it to create damage to the Forest as a pretext to start trouble. Also be very careful with Coyote's words. The trickster said that "she" can't trust the people there; that might be a commentary on Antimony intended to promote mistrust.
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TicToc
Sept 7, 2008 23:41:14 GMT
Post by fuzzyone on Sept 7, 2008 23:41:14 GMT
I'll concede that from all appearances, Gunnerkrigg Court has indeed been there for a while. But one would imagine such a place would have more people. It's the world's largest Ghost Town, Complete with Ghosts.
I also wouldn't exactly say that Everything that dies in the wood becomes a student. The Suicide Fairies had to Die to pass a test. Another question that just occurred to me, possibly deserving its own thread, is 'If there's such a rift between Court and Wood... Why do the Suicide Fairies want in, other than they were just told that was where they were supposed to go. But the overriding question is WHY?' I believe Jeanne is still a Ghost because of major unresolved issues regarding her death, The exact circumstances of which only Tom knows. Another interesting query: How exactly did Shadow 2 get INTO Gunnerkrigg Court before Annie found him the first time?
Back to the topic at Hand, the TicTocs. I've looked through the archives 3-4 times now, since finding the comic early into the S1 arc. The tictocs are mostly shown observing. And they always make the same sounds, except for one occasion. The 'Tic- Toc' sound, in my mind sounds like a camer's shutter. The Snap-click of a film camera's mechanism. The only other sound they make is the siren when possessed robot moves against Annie. Some possibilities about that, according to my thinking:
First, they made no siren when Annie sent Robot with Shadow 2 to the wood: Passing is NOT prohibited, but it is dangerous. They also made no noise when robot returned, with another Shadowman. The Tictocs are not there to enforce any rules. They have only acted twice. First was Annie's rescue. Second was to dodge the stick Zimmy threw at it. This brings to mind Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics.
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
I think that the Tictocs were probably programmed with similar instructions. First law observed: They had to act to save Annie. As we haven't seen anyone give them an order, We know nothing of the second law in their programming. Third law came into play in avoiding the stick. Since they were purposefully given feathers and features to make them look like actual birds, One may say they were also given programming to make them behave as birds, for further camouflage, and for self preservation. Which may explain why they haven't been caught and dismantled for study yet. I'm sure Eglamore is fast enough to jerk one of those birds out of the sky in one leap. I'd be curious to find out if any effort hsa been made to capture one for study since it has been confirmed that the birds are robotic, and not officially part of the court, though, doubtless their technology was used in their creation.
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TicToc
Sept 9, 2008 12:07:20 GMT
Post by Vanessa on Sept 9, 2008 12:07:20 GMT
A little girl walked past me at work today, in a massive old hotel, saying "tic...toc...tic...toc..." which freaked me out a bit!
I'm not sure about this - have the Tictocs been there all the time in living memory for the charaters currently there or did they arrive at some point in the last few decades or years?
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TicToc
Sept 13, 2008 11:20:23 GMT
Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 13, 2008 11:20:23 GMT
I'm not sure about this - have the Tictocs been there all the time in living memory for the charaters currently there or did they arrive at some point in the last few decades or years? We don't really know. Mrs. Donlan says something about the court having been interested in capturing one "for a long time" in comic #279. They show up in comic #13 so we know they've been around at least since about the same time Antimony started school. That would mean they'd been around for some months at that point, perhaps longer. I suppose that they'd been left alone that long by the Court lends weight to the theory that the Tocs are just sophisticated machines; if they were magic I figure they'd be seen as more of an threat or an interesting subject of study than a mere curiosity.
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TicToc
Sept 19, 2008 0:03:37 GMT
Post by xolejh on Sept 19, 2008 0:03:37 GMT
The tictocs seem to me to be a third party, that is relatively neutral and peaceful. I can't possibly guess their purpose, but most likely it will add in another character(although, it could have been that the scientist with the robot theater thing built them after that lady may have fell down from there and died.)
They are most likely not a surveliance system, cause there's just too many of them. Their robots, if they see something that they are programmed to change they change it.
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