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Post by the bandit on Apr 30, 2010 22:25:52 GMT
Then again, this fanbase would probably divide heatedly over whether that was ice cream or yogurt Background Character D was eating in panel 6. It seems to me that the only things we as a fanbase have ever -really- disagreed on were: He says, disagreeing with me. You cited all the instances where there were clear lines of two major factions. I'm thinking more along the lines of the daily disputes that happen in every [###] thread and then are never returned to because the continuation of the story resolves the question rather quickly (often as soon as the next page). I am also mixing in a bit of the fandom's fixation with making every obscure detail of Utmost Importance to the plot. It was a facetious statement.
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Post by todd on Apr 30, 2010 22:26:10 GMT
I think this situation has grown beyond the point that Annie can help Jack on her own. I seriously hope she goes to someone else for help. Considering how lenient the Court's been with Annie in the past, I think it would actually be in everyone's best interests if Annie got caught and came completely clean about this night's events. Pooling their information is obviously the only way anyone's going to know enough to help Jack. This echoes what I said in an earlier thread, but - I wonder what consequences Annie's getting caught and telling the Court about what happened at the power station would have for future chapters. Yes, the Court's been lenient with Annie, but this incident would indicate more than ever that her running about getting involved in everything is having disastrous consequences - first the bridge incident and now this. Furthermore, even Annie's friends are getting concerned (cf. the scene near the start of this chapter of Reynardine and Kat commenting on how these troubles wouldn't happen if Annie wouldn't keep on meddling with things). I think that someone in the faculty well-acquainted with Annie (Eglamore, Mrs. Donlan, or Jones, most likely) would have to sit down and have a long talk with her, making it clear that she has to stop doing these things, and pointing out how the results of her interference are endangering the Court rather than helping it. And Annie would have to start noticing that herself, going all the way back to sending Robot across the bridge (the results: Robot gets taken over by Ysengrin and a shadow-man in league with him, then skewered by Eglamore's sword, then melted down into paper clips, Annie herself gets knocked off the bridge, and on top of it all, Shadow2 decides to come back and live in Gunnerkrigg, making Annie's act pointless). So it might be difficult to do more "Annie sneaking around the school having adventures" stories after this. (Of course, a lot of the chapters were set around other things - school activities like the Spacemonauts simulation or the Recreational, flashback stories like Chapters Sixteen and Twenty-two, classroom stories like Annie having medium training - maybe Tom will focus on these for a while.) I also suspect that the Court will *have* to upgrade its security systems so that there won't be repeat incidents of other kids sneaking out of their dorms on nights that the power station's running and getting trapped in Zimmy's world, or hacking into the computers. (Maybe it's time for a school assembly to educate the children on just what's going on at the Court underneath its boarding school exterior, so that they won't feel the need to do their own investigations - though that would bring the story to a premature end.)
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four
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Post by four on Apr 30, 2010 22:36:45 GMT
I'll be your bridge... o'er troubled water... when you're... glaring... at... me like I'm some sort of monster.
Annie's about to lay into Jack. Hard to tell whether it'll be a rant, fists flying, or both.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 22:48:13 GMT
It seems to me that the only things we as a fanbase have ever -really- disagreed on were: He says, disagreeing with me. You cited all the instances where there were clear lines of two major factions. I'm thinking more along the lines of the daily disputes that happen in every [###] thread and then are never returned to because the continuation of the story resolves the question rather quickly (often as soon as the next page). I am also mixing in a bit of the fandom's fixation with making every obscure detail of Utmost Importance to the plot. It was a facetious statement. Oh, I know it was. I was using your phrase "divide heatedly" though, to enter into a conversation relating those times when we actually divided heatedly, as opposed to facetiously calling every thread's suppositions heated division. See? Your humorous remark actually led to constructive conversation! That's a good thing, right?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Apr 30, 2010 23:16:04 GMT
Then again, this fanbase would probably divide heatedly over whether that was ice cream or yogurt Background Character D was eating in panel 6. It seems to me that the only things we as a fanbase have ever -really- disagreed on were: A) Whether or not Reynardine truly intended to possess/kill Annie (still unresolved), B) Whether or not Jack's actions in Jupiter Moon Martians were menacing and Reynardine's defense of Annie was justified (I don't think anyone really questions this one anymore), C) Whether Jack's words to Annie in Residential were deliberately hurtful and unwarranted (I don't think anyone questions this anymore either), and finally D) Whether Jack's actions in the current chapter are Jack trying to help someone else, or just Jack trying to help Jack. You forgot the single most controversial issue that's ever come up: Homosexuality. The last thread discussing Annie/Kat and Zimmy/Gamma shipping had to be locked by Tom.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 23:35:55 GMT
It seems to me that the only things we as a fanbase have ever -really- disagreed on were: A) Whether or not Reynardine truly intended to possess/kill Annie (still unresolved), B) Whether or not Jack's actions in Jupiter Moon Martians were menacing and Reynardine's defense of Annie was justified (I don't think anyone really questions this one anymore), C) Whether Jack's words to Annie in Residential were deliberately hurtful and unwarranted (I don't think anyone questions this anymore either), and finally D) Whether Jack's actions in the current chapter are Jack trying to help someone else, or just Jack trying to help Jack. You forgot the single most controversial issue that's ever come up: Homosexuality. The last thread discussing Annie/Kat and Zimmy/Gamma shipping had to be locked by Tom. I must have forgotten it pretty hard, because I don't even remember that after you've mentioned it!
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Post by todd on Apr 30, 2010 23:36:32 GMT
You forgot the single most controversial issue that's ever come up: Homosexuality. The last thread discussing Annie/Kat and Zimmy/Gamma shipping had to be locked by Tom. Of course, Reynardine started it (at least, the Annie/Kat speculations). (That moment in Chapter Seven definitely established that he was male.)
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Post by Tobu Ishi on May 1, 2010 0:13:08 GMT
*tilts head* What we have here is a failure to communicate.
No, really. Jack's running on two parts insomnia, one part willful anorexia, and three parts hoo-dah crazy, and thinks he's one brave man racing against time and the system doing whatever it takes to get this fecking spider to step off his noggin. Random automaton? Evil body-snatching foxman? Meh. Jack's got this covered, Antimony will see that.
Antimony, who is more informed in some ways despite Jack's access to the database, thinks he's a complete violent nutter.
And we, the readers, know more about what Antimony knows than what Jack knows, and are inclined to side with her. Probably rightfully, though one must in all fairness allow for normal service not being entirely resumed in our man Jack's case. But time will tell.
In the meantime, I know it's been said in this thread already, but my first reaction to this page's final panels was a wi-ide grin and a "Ha!"
Spring-heeled Jack is going to jump.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 1, 2010 0:13:38 GMT
I must have forgotten it pretty hard, because I don't even remember that after you've mentioned it! I don't feel like looking it up, but I believe the thread I was thinking of was titled "I don't think Sappho lives here". Of course, Reynardine started it (at least, the Annie/Kat speculations). (That moment in Chapter Seven definitely established that he was male.) The very identity of the two main characters started it. You write a story about two attractive school girls who are best friends, it's inevitable that some fans will go looking for subtext with a fine-toothed comb.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 1, 2010 0:18:02 GMT
This echoes what I said in an earlier thread, but - I wonder what consequences Annie's getting caught and telling the Court about what happened at the power station would have for future chapters. Yes, the Court's been lenient with Annie, but this incident would indicate more than ever that her running about getting involved in everything is having disastrous consequences - first the bridge incident and now this. Furthermore, even Annie's friends are getting concerned (cf. the scene near the start of this chapter of Reynardine and Kat commenting on how these troubles wouldn't happen if Annie wouldn't keep on meddling with things). I think that someone in the faculty well-acquainted with Annie (Eglamore, Mrs. Donlan, or Jones, most likely) would have to sit down and have a long talk with her, making it clear that she has to stop doing these things, and pointing out how the results of her interference are endangering the Court rather than helping it. And Annie would have to start noticing that herself, going all the way back to sending Robot across the bridge (the results: Robot gets taken over by Ysengrin and a shadow-man in league with him, then skewered by Eglamore's sword, then melted down into paper clips, Annie herself gets knocked off the bridge, and on top of it all, Shadow2 decides to come back and live in Gunnerkrigg, making Annie's act pointless). There's no indication that anyone in the faculty knows the extent of Annie's meddling. Eglamore thought the bridge incident happened because Rey tricked her into going out there, and Annie told him that she'd never met Robot before. Annie telling the Court about tonight doesn't require that she tell about those other, unrelated incidents. Annie's track record from the Court's perspective: - Had an accidental run-in with a body-snatching demon and befriended it. Snuck out to meet him again and almost accidentally set him free, but ended up instead becoming his new jailer of sorts--a situation that actually has some advantages over Eglamore's setup. - Snuck into the decontamination room. Left when Bob told her to; no harm done. - Was tricked into leaving school property, and crossing the Annan bridge, and then fell off. This indirectly led to a near-incident with Ysengrin, but also led to the re-establishment of diplomatic contact between the Court and the Woods. - Masterminded a plan to take over the Sutton's house, in retaliation for a prank of similar severity that Eglamore and the Suttons pulled. So as far as the Court knows, the net results of Annie's meddling have been positive, or neutral at worst. And in the hypothetical scenario where Annie does spill the beans about this power plant incident, she might be able to make a case (depending on how these next few pages go) that her presence did help. Jack probably would have broken into the power plant anyway, without Annie's presence. Spring-heeled Jack is going to jump. "Looks like I'm gonna have to..."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2010 0:46:16 GMT
Ever since the ending of Power Station, I've had the feeling that Jack was somehow going to end up becoming the Court's next Dragon Slayer.
It's always been a hunch/pet hypothesis of mine, but now... SINGLE BOUND!
Of course that's only if he really can mega-jump like Eglamore. And there are about a billion other factors weighing upon it as well.
Note: This doesn't mean that I actually like the idea. It's just a feeling.
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Post by todd on May 1, 2010 0:48:13 GMT
And at least nobody blame Annie for Jack being infected by Zimmy; he'd been sneaking out for nights on his own long before the events of Chapter Nineteen, and the same thing would have happened even if he'd been the only person from Queslett on the roof that night and Annie and Kat had stayed in their dorms.
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Post by centzontotochtin on May 1, 2010 0:52:12 GMT
Ever since the ending of Power Station, I've had the feeling that Jack was somehow going to end up becoming the Court's next Dragon Slayer. It's always been a hunch/pet hypothesis of mine, but now... SINGLE BOUND!Of course that's only if he really can mega-jump like Eglamore. And there are about a billion other factors weighing upon it as well. You know, it would be funny if Jack the crazy person believed that he could jump long distances like Eglamore, but in reality couldn't. "Annie, I'll carry you across the lake!" *SPLOOSH* followed by *WHATEVER SOUND BEING FISHED OUT OF WATER BY COURT MiB WOULD SOUND LIKE*
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Post by Casey on May 1, 2010 0:52:46 GMT
Tobu Ishi raised an interesting point that I hadn't really considered in such terms before:
Are the actions that Jack is taking of his own "tainted" will, in an attempt to get rid of the spider? Or are the actions actually those of the spider itself, carried out through Jack, for its own unknown purpose?
It could really go either way pretty easily, and we don't really have any way to know which it is yet. In either case, I don't think Jack the human being is fully responsible for what he is doing: either his mind is being polluted by the spider, or his mind is being controlled by the spider. But which of those two is happening, could make a world of difference in what he (or it) is actually trying to accomplish by getting to Zimmy.
If it's polluted!Jack, he might be trying to get to her to make her help him get rid of it. If it's possessed!Jack, he (it) might be trying to get to Zimmy to do something -to- her.
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mariposa
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Hi, I'm Elise!
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Post by mariposa on May 1, 2010 4:36:47 GMT
Wow. I think Jack just set a record for the most number of annie's buttons pushed in the shortest amount of time.(augh. unintended pun!)
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Post by todd on May 1, 2010 10:31:31 GMT
I've mentioned earlier that I don't think that Zimmy would willingly help Jack, from what we've seen of her. But I also wonder if she even *could* help him. The most that she can do about her condition is to either have Gamma with her (until Gamma gets worn out) or be temporarily restored by the rain. If she can't undo her own condition, I doubt that she can undo Jack's.
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Post by TBeholder on May 1, 2010 11:28:41 GMT
I think that someone in the faculty well-acquainted with Annie (Eglamore, Mrs. Donlan, or Jones, most likely) would have to sit down and have a long talk with her, making it clear that she has to stop doing these things, and pointing out how the results of her interference are endangering the Court rather than helping it. And Annie would have to start noticing that herself, going all the way back to sending Robot across the bridge (the results: Robot gets taken over by Ysengrin and a shadow-man Great idea! Especially considering how in their school years Donlans bypassed security, Eglamore... well, we never saw him doing the same, but we know he was in the same company and bashed one silly head, and Jones shows mild interest in ongoing investigation and implied it's a good practice for Annie. They all are going to be horrified than she does something outside of soft-walls environment. ;D (Maybe it's time for a school assembly to educate the children on just what's going on at the Court underneath its boarding school exterior, so that they won't feel the need to do their own investigations - though that would bring the story to a premature end.) Yes, it's about time to tell everyone the dark of the Court's little ysteries no one bothered to notice. And especially the "human sacrifice" part, of which they don't know anything themselves. Then the students can drop their private project and get busy with something more conducive to development of a would be Mad Scientist - like a schoolbook with exercises of "what the sum of three green and one purple stars' temperatures" sort and writing postmodernist crosswords. Sure thing. Why not. ;D No wait, that would be really dangerous. Are the actions that Jack is taking of his own "tainted" will, in an attempt to get rid of the spider? Or are the actions actually those of the spider itself, carried out through Jack, for its own unknown purpose? Either way, he's messed up so much that it makes little difference. Which he just demonstrated with this swan song of obliviousness (call it [de-]crowning moment of mental inadequacy, if you want).
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Post by mirkwoodelf on May 1, 2010 16:21:52 GMT
I'm confused. "The Court's been waiting for Renard to screw up." How is he screwing up? Being caught in a magical web is hardly trying to take someone else's body, right? Ohhhh...or is it because they'd think he'd snuck in on his own? But then why would the trap even be there? Help, expert people!
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 1, 2010 16:35:40 GMT
I'm confused. "The Court's been waiting for Renard to screw up." How is he screwing up? Being caught in a magical web is hardly trying to take someone else's body, right? Ohhhh...or is it because they'd think he'd snuck in on his own? But then why would the trap even be there? Help, expert people! Considering that Jack's not operating at full capacity mentally, it's likely he never considered the latter issue. For that matter, he's ignoring the fact that, as soon as the Court tries to question Rey about why he snuck into the facility, Rey's going to finger Jack. Maybe Jack isn't so much intending to make the Court think that Rey acted alone, but just wanting Rey to distract the coming guards long enough so he can make his escape from the island.
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Post by Casey on May 1, 2010 17:09:54 GMT
I think his intention was to make it look like Rey was the one who turned on the power station and Jack trapped him in the process, thereby A) making himself look like a hero, B) getting Reynardine out of the way so he can menace Annie without him protecting her, and C) giving the Court officials something more important to fuss with, so that he can go menace Zimmy unimpeded.
His needs are beyond just getting away from the island unimpeded. If that were the case he would have never come to the island to begin with. The whole going to the island was just to set up Reynardine to get the officials off his trail for the foreseeable future: long enough to find Zimmy, and get from her whatever he needs from her.
It's a pretty smart plan. Dastardly and Machiavellian, but smart all the same.
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four
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Post by four on May 1, 2010 17:55:46 GMT
I had an idea... Watch Jack's eyebrows. Is anything jumping out at you?
For most of the chapter, they've been level. When his funny eyebrow returns, he's being outright silly, making observations, or is wearing an expression that might be construed as doubtful.
I think the eyebrows might be some sort of visual cue as to who's got the steering wheel: Jack... or the spider.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 1, 2010 20:56:40 GMT
His needs are beyond just getting away from the island unimpeded. If that were the case he would have never come to the island to begin with. He needed to come to the island to turn on the power station, because he thought doing so would make it easier for him to find Zimmy.
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Post by Casey on May 1, 2010 21:18:43 GMT
His needs are beyond just getting away from the island unimpeded. If that were the case he would have never come to the island to begin with. He needed to come to the island to turn on the power station, because he thought doing so would make it easier for him to find Zimmy. Well... that's what he -said-. He also said he wanted to go there to find answers, which wasn't true. He also said the devices on the wall were to tell if anyone was coming, which also wasn't true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2010 22:01:01 GMT
Hey guys, I think I've got the trap Reynardine's caught in figured out.
Jack has reverse-engineered Anja's binding and extraction programs and installed a modified recombination of them on his devices, with one wrinkle:
They operate completely independent of Anja's system.
When Reynardine enters the target area, Jack activates the array and Reynardine is paralyzed, his own Etheric Energy siphoned to serve as the battery for the trap holding him in place.
Caught in this feedback loop, Reynardine is in quite a bit of pain. Jack then takes the opportunity to mention having "changed (the program) a little..."
Jack then prevents Annie from touching Reynardine because if she did so, she'd be caught in the loop too.
So... If this is anywhere close to being right, Jack has to be taken much more seriously than if he were just feeding commands to Anya's computer.
Jack's knowledge is his to keep, after all, whereas Anja's system can be turned off...
Any thoughts?
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Post by todd on May 2, 2010 0:00:52 GMT
Considering that Jack's not operating at full capacity mentally, it's likely he never considered the latter issue. For that matter, he's ignoring the fact that, as soon as the Court tries to question Rey about why he snuck into the facility, Rey's going to finger Jack. Maybe Jack isn't so much intending to make the Court think that Rey acted alone, but just wanting Rey to distract the coming guards long enough so he can make his escape from the island. Perhaps Jack figured that Reynardine wouldn't be able to talk (or do much of anything else) as long as he's in the binding trap. Though eventually the Court would have to let him out so that they could question him. He wants to take Annie with him, even though he knows that she'd be dangerous company since the Court can track her - so as long as she's with him, her presence can lead the Court to him. On the other hand, if he leaves her behind, she could tell the Court what he did. Let's hope that, after pondering that, he doesn't come up with a third possibility - or that if he does, he still has enough humanity left in him to reject it.
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Post by tyler on May 2, 2010 1:08:37 GMT
The trap could induce shock, which could alter short-term memory. Rey could have a blank spot. That's just from the shock and pain. Who knows what the total parameters of the spell are,
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Post by cheddarius on May 2, 2010 2:18:35 GMT
Well... that's what he -said-. He also said he wanted to go there to find answers, which wasn't true. He also said the devices on the wall were to tell if anyone was coming, which also wasn't true. Ah, but there is other evidence for this. It was very strongly hinted at in the story - he asked Annie about Zimmy earlier, keeps talking about "her" (possibly a lie, but seems not to be), etc.
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Post by Casey on May 2, 2010 5:22:56 GMT
Well... that's what he -said-. He also said he wanted to go there to find answers, which wasn't true. He also said the devices on the wall were to tell if anyone was coming, which also wasn't true. Ah, but there is other evidence for this. It was very strongly hinted at in the story - he asked Annie about Zimmy earlier, keeps talking about "her" (possibly a lie, but seems not to be), etc. I don't question the point that Jack is working to get to Zimmy, cheddarius. I clearly said that Jack is throwing Rey to the dogs (NPI) in order to free himself from the Court's eyes so that he can go find Zimmy unhindered. The distinction being made here is whether turning on the Power Station itself was intended to attract Zimmy in and of itself, or whether turning on the Power Station was part of the plan to trap Rey and set him up so that he could then go find Zimmy. Frankly, by the way, I don't see how turning on the Power Station would attract Zimmy, and Jack knows this. He knows that they ran the "experiment" often enough that he was able to get the timing down to the second, and yet he never saw Zimmy there before, and it was clear from what Zimmy said when she arrived that she hadn't been there before. Jack knows that turning on the Power Station isn't going to attract or affect Zimmy, therefore turning on the Power Station could only be part of his plan to trap Rey, and what he told Annie about using the Power Station to attract Zimmy must have been Yet Another Lie, the same way he'd been lying the whole time.
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Post by atteSmythe on May 2, 2010 5:34:20 GMT
Frankly, by the way, I don't see how turning on the Power Station would attract Zimmy, and Jack knows this. He knows that they ran the "experiment" often enough that he was able to get the timing down to the second, and yet he never saw Zimmy there before, and it was clear from what Zimmy said when she arrived that she hadn't been there before. It was clear that she hadn't been there before, but it was also clear that she'd only just figured out that the power station was the source of her discomfort: "that...fing out there. It's screwin' with my head. Finally found it."Now she knows what it is...but she also knows she can't stop it, and the rain won't help, so I don't know how likely it is to draw her out. However, Jack's apparently out of options. Even if it's a long shot, it's the best shot he thinks he has. I think he's being genuine on this point.
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Post by Casey on May 2, 2010 5:38:40 GMT
Frankly, by the way, I don't see how turning on the Power Station would attract Zimmy, and Jack knows this. He knows that they ran the "experiment" often enough that he was able to get the timing down to the second, and yet he never saw Zimmy there before, and it was clear from what Zimmy said when she arrived that she hadn't been there before. It was clear that she hadn't been there before, but it was also clear that she'd only just figured out that the power station was the source of her discomfort: "that...fing out there. It's screwin' with my head. Finally found it."Now she knows what it is...but she also knows she can't stop it, and the rain won't help, so I don't know how likely it is to draw her out. However, Jack's apparently out of options. Even if it's a long shot, it's the best shot he thinks he has. I think he's being genuine on this point. Oh, you're saying that it's the thing that's been causing her lapses into Zimmyworld all along? Well that's an interesting thought... but she'd been going to Zimmyworld for much longer than she's been at GC, as seen in Dobranoc Gamma. Tom even said once that she'd "been this way" her whole life, if I recall correctly. So therefore my interpretation was that the power station was messing with her head because she was in the area (they wander around at their own discretion) and she was seeking it out just to figure out what was going on, but afterwards it would be a place that she would stay far away from since obviously the events of "Power Station" hadn't happened to her before, i.e. the effect of the rain was a surprise to her (It ain't workin'!")
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