blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Apr 30, 2010 13:31:16 GMT
Well I mean there will be those that argue that everything Jack is doing is altruistic .... And to those people, I'll give a modified version of what I said back then. These things that you suggest... they are possible. I personally do not think they are likely. I could be wrong, though. But I'm willing to wager $5 USD that I'm not. Ahahahahaha Of course now defeating the Dread Demon Reynardine isn't altruistic because it also helps Jack. Whatever! Jack is great. Boo to 'modified program to cause pain'. More like modified program to work on this wall and who cares how the flower wolf feels about it. Anyway, I am as much for plan: smash machine as I was for plan: smash spider, which is completely. Of course I recall previously I was told that she couldn't just smash the spider because WHO KNOWS the effects but now that it's beloved Reynardine in trouble I guess it's important to act quickly. Should she use her control of fire, BladeFang of God, or her plain ol' psychokinesis to take control of this situation? Haha, at her current rate of power growth she'll probably absorb all of Coyote's power (then use it to push two boats at once). I vote BFG.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Apr 30, 2010 13:45:41 GMT
If doing an unasked-for favor to Annie was an important motivation for Jack, then why did he wait until now to do it? Why not spring the trap when he first set up the devices?
Waiting until now is much more consistent with the hypothesis that Jack is throwing Rey under the bus and trying to sell it as a good deed.
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Apr 30, 2010 13:50:28 GMT
Because he "almost forgot". Haha jokes. Yeah his mission in life isn't to do Annie favors. I think he sees this as mutually beneficial.
Jack just doesn't understand women. The real way to Annie's heart is to try to kill her and then to blow her off when confronted about it.
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Post by cheddarius on Apr 30, 2010 13:57:36 GMT
KICK HIM IN THE BALLS ANNIE DO EET
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Post by Mezzaphor on Apr 30, 2010 14:12:44 GMT
Because he "almost forgot". Haha jokes. Yeah his mission in life isn't to do Annie favors. I think he sees this as mutually beneficial. Well, then, it's not altruistic. Altruism, by definition, is doing something good for another person without any benefit for yourself.
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on Apr 30, 2010 14:16:13 GMT
Because he "almost forgot". Haha jokes. Yeah his mission in life isn't to do Annie favors. I think he sees this as mutually beneficial. Well, then, it's not altruistic. Altruism, by definition, is doing something good for another person without any benefit for yourself. Of course now defeating the Dread Demon Reynardine isn't altruistic because it also helps Jack. Whatever! Jack is great.
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Post by the bandit on Apr 30, 2010 14:18:54 GMT
See? All a part of the plan. Guess this is one of the disadvantages with getting all your news from the "Permanent Record". Best comment ever. If doing an unasked-for favor to Annie was an important motivation for Jack, then why did he wait until now to do it? Just because you know it's a favor, doesn't mean you know the recipient will appreciate it. Is Jack doing Annie that much of a favor? Even if he gets her back across the lake, somehow, the Court knows about Annie's hold over Reynardine; they'll be asking her a lot of questions.... Unless Jack's plan is for himself and Annie to escape from the Court entirely afterwards. All a part of the plan.
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Post by the bandit on Apr 30, 2010 14:21:32 GMT
Oh, I forgot to say: Jack is awesome. I worship him, he walks on water.
Hey, wait, that's an idea...
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Post by starburst98 on Apr 30, 2010 15:05:42 GMT
why is everyone assuming that annie's and renardine's info as well as the program were unguarded? he could have HACKED into the database as found stuff out illegally. chester house security probably just has some etheric guarding method so a computer terminal couldn't get through.
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Post by legion on Apr 30, 2010 15:09:53 GMT
Geez people, 3rd page of comment reached in what, 7 hours?
Anyway, good page. Jack has a spider in the head *bah doom tsh*.
Also, the program is modified, and it causes pain, but *who said it was modified to cause pain*?
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Post by hal9000 on Apr 30, 2010 15:14:09 GMT
why is everyone assuming that annie's and renardine's info as well as the program were unguarded? he could have HACKED into the database as found stuff out illegally. chester house security probably just has some etheric guarding method so a computer terminal couldn't get through. I'm pretty sure we all assumed that Jack had to break in just to get what he did; the reason we're all taking an interest in it is because apparently the security was tighter for Chester than for all of this other stuff (eg, it was on it's own secure network). It seems odd to have more security for the Chester data files than for all the other things Jack managed to gain access to.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 15:31:23 GMT
Guess this is one of the disadvantages with getting all your news from the "Permanent Record". Best comment ever. I don't get it! I feel dumb. Fill me in, will ya?
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simplekin
New Member
Get your hands off me.
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Post by simplekin on Apr 30, 2010 15:33:40 GMT
...problem is, though, that without another body to "arc" to, Reynardine would die. Jack? Just an idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2010 15:53:00 GMT
Hey, cool, I was almost completely right. Casey. I never said Jack was some kind of superhero for doing this or... even anything close to that, really. I said Jack's making what he believes to be the most rational decisions at all times, and that is indeed exactly what is happening. There's no altruism here. Rationalists game every situation for the greatest possible advantage, and that's what Jack is doing. They also tend to come off as unhinged to whoever's on the other side of the playing field. I don't get it! I feel dumb. Fill me in, will ya? It means that Jack is jumping to conclusions based on the Court's perspective alone. Which isn't even close to the whole story. Thus he's heading for a bad end™ So...In any case, go go get 'em, Jack! You're a major threat running at the ragged edge of self-justification (and health), and that's what makes you so damn entertaining! About the Court's computer system security:Chester are likely some of The Court's WMDs "of a sort" that Tom referred to on Formspring. Info on them is naturally locked down. Foley are Gillitie immigrants, so it only makes sense that info on them would be highly classified as well. Anja's etheric computer is regarded as superfluous/useless by the Court, so I'm willing to bet the only real "security" in regard to it is the requirement of a soft link (THE EYE SYMBOL) to access its systems. Since next to nobody knows about the system, let alone the symbol, it's pretty secure. Too bad Jack just cracked it!
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 16:08:05 GMT
Casey. I never said Jack was some kind of superhero for doing this or... even anything close to that, really. I said Jack's making what he believes to be the most rational decisions at all times, and that is indeed exactly what is happening. Eh, relax there man, yours wasn't the only post on the subject in the previous thread.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Apr 30, 2010 16:09:05 GMT
Well, then, it's not altruistic. Altruism, by definition, is doing something good for another person without any benefit for yourself. I don't like that definition - I prefer the other one that says just "unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others". The definition you offered would indicate that even the tiniest benefit (e.g. feeling happy about what you did) prevents an act from being altruistic, instead of focusing on one's motivation. This is just a nitpick, mind you. It's very obvious that Jack isn't being altruistic with either definition.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 16:15:04 GMT
I agree, I'm sticking with the stance that Jack isn't doing anything with the actual intent of helping someone else, or righting any wrongs, or heroically disposing of any merderous demons... the entire scene we're seeing here is Jack covering Jack's own ass to get away, and anything he says to the contrary is just a smokescreen to further cover his own ass.
This is what I'm convinced that the evidence shows, and others may see it differently, but to me I think his outright stated intent to use Reynardine to help him escape and "deal with" Zimmy while unimpeded is only subject to one logical interpretation.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 16:18:37 GMT
Oh I forgot to add that until Mezzaphor mentioned it earlier in the thread, I hadn't even realized that Jack is essentially setting it up to look like -Reynardine- was the one who set off the Power Station, and Jack is trying to make it look like he (Jack) "caught Reynardine in the act" and they're going to come storming in blaming Rey for everything while Jack gets away completely innocent in the officials' eyes.
I mean that's more than throwing Rey under the bus. That's also paying off the bus driver.
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Post by November on Apr 30, 2010 16:31:42 GMT
I told you he wasn't evil.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 30, 2010 16:41:34 GMT
Also: after this he's not going to fast-talk Annie into moving a finger anymore. He may even think he's doing Antimony a favor in the long run since Reynard's dangerous. Cookies! Fistful of Annie beat down in three... two... one... My bet is still on a firework. I wonder what would happen if Annie just smashes one or more of those little wall doohickeys. Could be this, or just "you have two seconds to remove it. One.", but it seems, she have to do something about Renard right now. So i expect her to do it the fastest way possible. Even without "No, you are the one who forgot something: <FWOOSH>". I wouldn't put past her a fun one-liner after this, but by then she will be occupied with preventing Rey from explaining to Jack just how it feels, in little details. Okay, in comics it's hard to say - maybe it have preparation time. But here's no positive evidence so far. Seriously, "I'll carry you"? Jack was always a smooth dude, what the hell is he going on about now?) Methinks, the poor boy is losin' it. The hard way. Guess this is one of the disadvantages with getting all your news from the "Permanent Record". Not trusting the Court, but trusting their internal memos. What could possibly go wrong with this? Which I don’t really get, seeing as he’s seen them on friendly terms, rather than the simple “I’m stuck with the demon who tried to kill me” attitude. <shrug> Currently he's zetajacked, hungry and sleep-deprived. I mean, it's not like it was the first time he missed details that don't fit into his glorious plan. I was thinking more along the lines of "Have you ever heard anything of passwords, firewalls and encryptions?". That program clearly is no toy, that should be openly available to just anyone. Leaving the ways of controlling a body-snatcher just like that... what could possibly go wrong? It's perhaps the second craziest screw-up of this sort ever (you can't beat the Dracorage Mythal). I think that Annie should find out first exactly what Jack did to Reynardine before she tries to free him; smashing the nearest device might make things worse. That seems to be her approach to Jack's spider, but here's a visible need to do something quickly, so...
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Apr 30, 2010 16:54:46 GMT
As fun as it is to talk about Annie actually doing something, my guess is Jack is about to demonstrate what he means by "carry". Once on the other side of the lake they will probably have a short argument.
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Post by lurker on Apr 30, 2010 17:32:23 GMT
Annie is no pushover. I anticipate Jack kissing the floor on Monday.
Although that may have its own problems, seeing that Jack is acting this way probably because of the etheric spider. Or rather, what the spider and the web represent: a sinister etheric corruption that can only end horribly. Who knows what Jack will do if physically confronted.
At any rate, I can't see things turning out well for Jack, regardless of how this mess unfolds. The Court MiB's are after him, Rey will be extremely mad at him, now Annie's mad at him too, and if he continues acting this way when he does find Zimmy (which, judging by his worsening condition, he will), she's probably gonna give him a good whoppin' or two. No matter what, Jack's cruisin' for a bruisin'.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 18:12:43 GMT
I think Annie should go into ghost-mode, grab that punk little spider and start squeezing, and declare a Mexican stand-off. Let Rey go or I crush you!
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Post by Snes on Apr 30, 2010 18:55:27 GMT
Part of me is hating Jack for being a jerk, but part of me is loving Jack for being a psychotic jerk... I feel so conflicted He is rather Evilly Affable, isn't he? If he really is evil. I don't know if he is, but he is causing pain for his own selfish intentions. But he doesn't appear to be entirely selfish, or even aware that he's hurting others. When he smashed the guard bot, it was because he didn't consider it to be anything more than a security system to bypass. He didn't think of it as killing someone (also no real consensus that it was). While he's disabling Rey to make his escape, he expects Annie to be grateful. He thinks that she finds Rey to be a burden or a hindrance. So he at least thinks he's doing some good outside of his own benefits. Really, when you can make a character than so sharply divides the fanbase, I see it as evidence of a very deep character. Kudos, Tom.
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Post by hal9000 on Apr 30, 2010 19:11:41 GMT
I think Annie should go into ghost-mode, grab that punk little spider and start squeezing, and declare a Mexican stand-off. Let Rey go or I crush you! She should probably have just done that a few chapters ago, when she first saw the thing. You know though, that spider seems to be projecting some kind of ether-disrupting field around itself and Jack, so she might not be able to get at it even if she wanted to.
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Post by the bandit on Apr 30, 2010 19:18:34 GMT
Really, when you can make a character than so sharply divides the fanbase, I see it as evidence of a very deep character. Kudos, Tom. Then again, this fanbase would probably divide heatedly over whether that was ice cream or yogurt Background Character D was eating in panel 6.
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Post by thesteve on Apr 30, 2010 19:41:13 GMT
I think Jack is stuck. Somehow his body and soul got switched in Birminghell. The spider is just building a web on unmoving Astral body. Thats why he's crazy - he needs to get back together, and only Zimmy can do it. That's how he sees Annie in Astral mode and how he can go for days without food - that's his astral body stuck in the real world. That's my theory anyway The Steve
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 20:15:21 GMT
Really, when you can make a character than so sharply divides the fanbase, I see it as evidence of a very deep character. Kudos, Tom. Then again, this fanbase would probably divide heatedly over whether that was ice cream or yogurt Background Character D was eating in panel 6. It seems to me that the only things we as a fanbase have ever -really- disagreed on were: A) Whether or not Reynardine truly intended to possess/kill Annie (still unresolved), B) Whether or not Jack's actions in Jupiter Moon Martians were menacing and Reynardine's defense of Annie was justified (I don't think anyone really questions this one anymore), C) Whether Jack's words to Annie in Residential were deliberately hurtful and unwarranted (I don't think anyone questions this anymore either), and finally D) Whether Jack's actions in the current chapter are Jack trying to help someone else, or just Jack trying to help Jack. The difference I see in the resolution of A versus the resolution of all the others, is that in A, everything we've seen of the character since the incident refutes the negative conclusion, and in all other cases, everything we've seen of the character since the incidents -support- the negative conclusion. In other words everything that Rey's done since supposedly trying to possess Annie paints him as a character who wouldn't do such a thing, whereas everything that Jack's done since cornering Annie, threatening her, insulting her and belittling her, luring her to the power station, and setting up Reynardine to be trapped, tortured, and ultimately blamed for Jack's actions, all just so he can "get to" Zimmy, paint him as a character who not only would do such a thing, but who consistently continues to do such things with no cessation. There, there's your uber-debate, to encompass all other debates in one!
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2010 20:18:04 GMT
I should add that in all places where I said "Jack", one could substitute "Jack's etheric stowaway", as I'm perfectly willing to accept that all of these things are the doings of the spider's influence, and Jack himself is suffering what someone referred to recently as "diminished capacity".
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Post by sebastian on Apr 30, 2010 21:29:43 GMT
Mostly I'm getting that from panel 5, in which he directly states that he believes he is doing her a favor. This was an outcome predicted in the last thread, I think. Based on what I’ve seen on this page, everything he’s doing is what he thinks is a good thing to do. In his mind, this is all his way of helping Annie and he thinks that Annie will thank him for it... Which I don’t really get, seeing as he’s seen them on friendly terms, rather than the simple “I’m stuck with the demon who tried to kill me” attitude. Maybe he think that the relatioship between Annie and Reynardine is similiar to the one between him and the etheric spider in his head. Also, I am probably wrong but I don't think that Jack is in full control of his actions, I think Mr. Spider is sharing the wheel so to speak, at least from the moment they entered the station, that would explain how he could see Annie's etheric form.
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