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Post by rosencrantz on Mar 13, 2013 15:13:08 GMT
I haven't read the entire topic yet, and maybe it's so obvious that it doesn't need pointing out, but Ysengrin is clearly portrayed as lobotomized.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 15, 2013 8:10:18 GMT
For one, the Throne (eye-wheel). I wasn't aware of the phototransmitters or whatever until reading this, and now it seems obvious; Gunnerkrigg Court is "Man's endeavor to become god", after all. And high-ranking angels=god generally, right? ... I'm not sure which religion you're thinking of. It certainly isn't the one which that imagery was lifted from. (Or if it is, you're completely missing the point.) Also, they're photoresistors. Their resistance goes down when you shine a light on them. Useful for light sensors and such. Actually, that does explain they they're taking the place of eyes... I'm betting the letter isn't from a robot, since that doesn't seem like a big enough deal for an end-of-book cliffhanger. It's probably from Paz or Alistair, and the heart has something to do with her future relationship problems. It is if the robot is Robot... It can't be from Alistair, since Tom explicitly said he's gone permanently. And from Paz wouldn't make any sense at all.
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Post by Eversist on Mar 15, 2013 8:52:19 GMT
I haven't read the entire topic yet, and maybe it's so obvious that it doesn't need pointing out, but Ysengrin is clearly portrayed as lobotomized. Huh, nice! I noticed the ear, but not the brain reference.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 17, 2013 20:14:18 GMT
Did Tom really say that about Alistair? Bummer, there goes all my theories.
But I disagree about Paz making no sense. Actually, unless Tom's introducing a totally new never-before-seen character, she's the only person I can think of now who would make any sense at all. There is no other character who is even remotely involved in Kat's personal character development, except Robot and you'd think he would have just spoken to her when they were in the same room earlier that day.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 18, 2013 4:12:31 GMT
Did Tom really say that about Alistair? Bummer, there goes all my theories. Yeah, it kind of irks him that a lot of people seem to miss the "And she never saw him again." at the end of Chapter 13. But I disagree about Paz making no sense. Actually, unless Tom's introducing a totally new never-before-seen character, she's the only person I can think of now who would make any sense at all. There is no other character who is even remotely involved in Kat's personal character development, except Robot and you'd think he would have just spoken to her when they were in the same room earlier that day. Paz: "I ~ I'm not... Like that..."Really, you think a totally new character would be less likely than Paz after that? A character whose most recent interaction with Kat was to preemptively head off the possibility of romance? Robot: "She becomes more beautiful by the day!"Love makes you act in strange ways. Sending a love letter to someone because you can't build up the courage to tell them in real life is absolutely one of them.
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Post by rinabean on Mar 18, 2013 10:06:47 GMT
The first thing I thought of when I saw Kat's heart is the robot heart she fixed. Notches missing in the outline - that's how they killed that robot, a notch through a line in the program, wasn't it? And she had to go round the wrekin pretty much to fix it - what she did was not elegant compared to the original. So instead of filling in the notches in the outline, a whole new line is drawn across the heart.
I'm not sure what the meaning is though. I don't think Kat will die and someone will inscribe things on her heart to bring her back to life rofl.
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lukaswhite
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The World Continues to Spin
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Post by lukaswhite on Mar 18, 2013 10:54:08 GMT
I'm not sure which religion you're thinking of. It certainly isn't the one which that imagery was lifted from. (Or if it is, you're completely missing the point. The imagery is a reference to this, as explained in a previous post on this thread. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammarion_engravingI had noticed that one of these or these was in the corner of the treatise, hence my statement on the comparison. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophanimen.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThronesThese describe a class of angel that appears in the Old Testament. I had not read the thread extensively beforehand, and now I have been made aware of the implications of symbolism. Thanks. However, the point (made erroneously) still stands, as the engraving's symbolism of a "quest for knowledge" fits the Court perfectly.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 18, 2013 12:59:16 GMT
Oh, if it's from Paz I doubt it's a straightforward love letter. Just because Kat saw a heart on the outside doesn't mean it's a confession of love, and even if it is there's no guarentee that a sender wouldn't have another purpose, possibly signing it as someone else as anonymous.
Besides, remember the little forshadowing of Paz at the beginning of the chapter? Tom tends to wrap up loose ends, which is partially why I expect that to be related to the letter.
Yes, but Robot hasn't really been as obsessed with Kat lately. Ever since the incident with Coyote's tooth he's switched to spending his time with Shadow, in fact I don't remember him doing a single stalkerish thing towards Kat since that chapter (correct me if I'm wrong).
And when would he have written up this love letter and sent it? Immediately after Kat left the warehouse? He couldn't have known about the room change before, so that would be his only opportunity. It seems odd that he would have time to write several pages of letter in the time skip and deliver it, or that he would choose to do that after being kidnapped and getting to speak with Kat in person.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 18, 2013 18:39:41 GMT
Besides, remember the little forshadowing of Paz at the beginning of the chapter? Tom tends to wrap up loose ends, which is partially why I expect that to be related to the letter. Which baffles me terribly, since what you call "forshadowing" was itself Tom wrapping a loose end. (Bringing some closure to subtle subplot of Kat's struggle against percieved societal pressure and how she appears to others.) That you mangaged use "Tom tends to wrap up loose ends" as part of an argument that Tom not merely introduced new ends, but untied ends which weren't loose to begin is just plain astounding. Yes, but Robot hasn't really been as obsessed with Kat lately. As far as we've seen. Tom doesn't have the time to show everything, after all. Take, for instance, the Tic-Tocs: they haven't been even mentioned for 16 chapters, or seen for 11 more, but that doesn't mean that they're gone. Tom's just waiting for the right moment to reintroduce them, just as this was the right moment to revisit that particular subplot. Especially seing as Kat just played "knight in shining armor" to Robot's "damsel in distress", and vindicated him in the eyes of his peers, whom had gone so far as to disassemble him. (Which in robotic terms, is essentially Capitol Punishment.) It seems odd that he would have time to write several pages of letter in the time skip and deliver it, or that he would choose to do that after being kidnapped and getting to speak with Kat in person. That isn't all that much, actually. Assuming that the font used is as old-fashioned as the paper, then it's got a maximum of 100-200 characters a line on it. Assuming a fair amount of whitespace (like would be used in, say, a poem) that's roughly a dozen words a line, leaning towards more; let's round to twenty to be sure. If every other line is blank, then from what we could see there's probably no more than 50-60 lines of text. 60 lines * 20 words/line = 1200 words. That ain't long. Even the slowest typer could handle it in an hour, easily enough. And there's certainly room for more than one hour during the time skip. (There could be 12 or more if the start of the chapter was in the morning.) Heck, one could even make a good argument that Kat coming to Robot's rescue was taken by him to be the sign that it was "the right time" to deliver a letter he had already written, but was too anxious to send. All in all, it makes no sense why Tom would discard thirty chapters worth of character development in favor of something which flies directly in the face of already-established concepts.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 18, 2013 19:24:33 GMT
Darling, you seem a little worked up about this. Take a deep breath. No need to get insulting. Difference of opinion then. The impression that I got when Paz just appeared in the background was that she was an omen from the future; you see her as one from the past. You could argue that Kat's gotten over her insecurity, but I would make the case that even then, it's still a loose end because she never made up with / clarified things with Paz, one of her friends; I know Tom can't show everything, but since he did spend a number of chapters regularly and consistently building up Robot's obsession with Kat, I just find it odd that he would suddenly stop showing that. It's been a good 5 chapters after all. Not to mention that in this specific chapter, it would come out of nowhere. Changes contained only highlights of Robot and Shadow's relationship, with just about nothing involving Kat and Robot. They don't even interact. Plus, look at how Robot behaves when his rescuers arrive. : www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1140The impression I've gotten is that his semi-romantic obsession with her has ended (although the semi-worshipful one doesn't seem to have). It doesn't seem like he's discarding anything, in light of Robot's recent character development. And the issue with Paz is about 6 chapters old, so it's pretty well established.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 19, 2013 1:00:07 GMT
Darling, you seem a little worked up about this. Take a deep breath. No need to get insulting. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm not angry or upset, either; it's just hard to show that over the internet. it's still a loose end because she never made up with / clarified things with Paz, one of her friends; I suppose that's true... But the way to tie that up would be to have the two talk it out. A love letter from Paz would not only not tie anything up, but also untie the "issue" of any possible romance between the two; which was pretty effectively squashed flat, if it was ever even a possibility to begin with. I know Tom can't show everything, but since he did spend a number of chapters regularly and consistently building up Robot's obsession with Kat, I just find it odd that he would suddenly stop showing that. It's been a good 5 chapters after all. If you look back at how long other subplots have lain dormant, you'll notice that's actually a reasonable length to wait. For instance, the shortest gap between different parts of the Jeanne plot is 5 chapters. It doesn't seem like he's discarding anything, in light of Robot's recent character development. And the issue with Paz is about 6 chapters old, so it's pretty well established. And the issue with Paz started with establishing that Paz is not "like that". Something a love letter would fly straight in the face of.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Mar 19, 2013 2:44:11 GMT
And the issue with Paz started with establishing that Paz is not "like that". Something a love letter would fly straight in the face of. Things aren't quite so simple in a discussion of shipping on the internet. Here's how it works: If a character has a significant interaction with someone of the same sex, that proves that they're gay. If they state outright that they're not gay, that proves that they're in denial. And if they marry someone of the opposite sex and have three kids, that proves that they're bi.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 19, 2013 9:36:34 GMT
Alright, here's probably the issue between our interpretations. I really don't think that the letter is a love letter from Paz. If it turns out it's from Robot, for example, then yeah it's probably/totally a love letter. But if the letter is in some way related to Paz/the Paz issue, I highly doubt it is. The only reason we're calling it a love letter is because of the funny little heart on the front, and because Kat got all worked up upon seeing it. But we really know nothing about the contents. (And for further support, I put little heart stickers and things on my business mailings, so yeah.) ;D I keep thinking about the page linked below, which reminds me of our current situation in terms of the mysterious message / end-of-chapter cliffhanger elements. Hearing from Annie's father was an enormously important plot element, while Tom doesn't seem to place that same level of significance on his romantic subplots. That's why I feel like this cliffhanger, which is the end of a whole book, might not be so simple as a love letter. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1000Well yes, but Jeanne's actually been absent from the scene. Meanwhile Robot is usually around, has been seen around mostly hanging out with Shadow. How old are our characters now? Are they in high school yet? Regardless, I don't think any of them are really old enough for us to be trying to diagnose their sexual orientation.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 19, 2013 13:38:57 GMT
The only reason we're calling it a love letter is because of the funny little heart on the front, and because Kat got all worked up upon seeing it. Well, here is where meta reasoning comes into play. If it happened in real life, then yeah we certainly shouldn't jump to any conclusions about the contents. But I don't see why Tom would have Kat get so hyped up about it if it isn't a love letter -on a cliffhanger no less! That just isn't Tom's style at all. Hearing from Annie's father was an enormously important plot element, while Tom doesn't seem to place that same level of significance on his romantic subplots. Well, remember how old the girls are supposed to be. The're what, fourteen now? This is the age at which romance would actually start to become important, isn't it? How old are our characters now? Are they in high school yet? Regardless, I don't think any of them are really old enough for us to be trying to diagnose their sexual orientation. He's being satirical about how people seem to think on the internet. And I'm sorry to say that I can't refute it...
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Post by dracazula on Mar 19, 2013 13:51:57 GMT
It's a pretty silly scene, with Kat making faces and hearts in the background. I don't think we're supposed to take it as absolute fact. And I can think of a lot more cliffhanger-worthy things than a love letter.
Call me a late bloomer but I was so not interested in boys at 14.
The Internet is the Internet. I for one have always been pleasantly pleased by how little of the typical Internet stupidity shows up on these forums.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 19, 2013 15:38:38 GMT
I can think of a lot more cliffhanger-worthy things than a love letter. True, but Tom gave us something which looks like a love letter. Given that it looks like a love letter, and a major character called it a love letter, it's unfair to assume that most wouldn't automatically take it as such. Therefore, if it turns out to not be a love letter at all, a lot of people are going to feel cheated -something I assume Tom's trying to avoid. Call me a late bloomer but I was so not interested in boys at 14. Fair enough, but the point I was trying to make is that this is the age period where romance makes a transition from less to more importance. The romance subplots between the other students has already been ramping up for a while now; I'd say the Robot+Kat plot is behind the curve, if anything. The Internet is the Internet. I for one have always been pleasantly pleased by how little of the typical Internet stupidity shows up on these forums. Well, I'm ashamed to say that was the angle I kinda assumed you were coming from, here... (I know better now.)
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Post by GK Sierra on Mar 19, 2013 20:48:16 GMT
Well, remember how old the girls are supposed to be. The're what, fourteen now? This is the age at which romance would actually start to become important, isn't it? Romance will appear at that age, yes, or a primitive manifestation of it, but it doesn't really become important until your twenties. I don't think anyone looking back at public-school era relationships will remember them as particularly meaningful, unless of course you met your future spouse there or something. It's all just testing the waters at this stage of life. How old are our characters now? Are they in high school yet? Regardless, I don't think any of them are really old enough for us to be trying to diagnose their sexual orientation. If we subscribe to the theory that sexual orientation is biologically innate, then yes, they are old enough to make that determination.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Mar 19, 2013 21:19:46 GMT
Well, remember how old the girls are supposed to be. The're what, fourteen now? This is the age at which romance would actually start to become important, isn't it? Romance will appear at that age, yes, or a primitive manifestation of it, but it doesn't really become important until your twenties. I don't think anyone looking back at public-school era relationships will remember them as particularly meaningful, unless of course you met your future spouse there or something. It's all just testing the waters at this stage of life. It's hindsight that lets us say romance at that age isn't all that important. At the time, it feels pretty world-shattering.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 19, 2013 22:38:20 GMT
I'm looking back now and I can see how you mistook me for some kind of rabid Paz/Kat shipper (which is bloody hilarious to be honest) ;D.
I do have my ships, but that is definitely not one, and Tom keeps shooting down the others. It's like playing Battleship, but where none of your moves make a difference.
Even if it is innate, I don't think I would assume something decided at that age was set in stone. I'm sure plenty of homosexuals still considered themselves straight at 14, and probably there have been a few kids who misdiagnosed themselves as gay or bi.
That is true. It seems like all of Annie's and Kat's peers have romantic interests now, while neither of them have anyone they've displayed intense reciprocated interest in. So maybe it is time for Tom to up the ante.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 20, 2013 0:36:18 GMT
It's like playing Battleship, but where none of your moves make a difference. "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."...Wow. From global thermonuclear flame wars to counter-trolling, is there anything on the Internet which that quote isn't good for?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 0:40:16 GMT
Romance will appear at that age, yes, or a primitive manifestation of it, but it doesn't really become important until your twenties. I don't think anyone looking back at public-school era relationships will remember them as particularly meaningful, unless of course you met your future spouse there or something. It's all just testing the waters at this stage of life. Whoah, now. That's a pretty broad generalization there. It is, unfortunately, relatively true for a vast majority of the age group, but there are some pretty damn meaningful and impacting relationships to be had there, robot cults and crazy tree-wolf-guys aside.
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Post by GK Sierra on Mar 20, 2013 7:02:50 GMT
Romance will appear at that age, yes, or a primitive manifestation of it, but it doesn't really become important until your twenties. I don't think anyone looking back at public-school era relationships will remember them as particularly meaningful, unless of course you met your future spouse there or something. It's all just testing the waters at this stage of life. Whoah, now. That's a pretty broad generalization there. It is, unfortunately, relatively true for a vast majority of the age group, but there are some pretty damn meaningful and impacting relationships to be had there, robot cults and crazy tree-wolf-guys aside. I didn't mean they were meaningless, but I do mean that they are short lived, and upon reanalysis later in life are not as important as they seemed at the time. Then again, I am speaking from my own subjective personal experience. No two people are alike.
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Post by warrl on Mar 23, 2013 0:41:57 GMT
Assuming that the font used is as old-fashioned as the paper, then it's got a maximum of 100-200 characters a line on it. Assuming a fair amount of whitespace (like would be used in, say, a poem) that's roughly a dozen words a line, leaning towards more; let's round to twenty to be sure. If every other line is blank, then from what we could see there's probably no more than 50-60 lines of text. We had 66 lines of 132 characters. However, because results were somewhat erratic if we did all 66 lines and then did a page break, we stopped at 65 lines. And we were trying to put columnar data on the page, not write something that would be easy to read in the manner one reads an essay, story, or letter from a friend. Presentation is important in a (presumed) love letter. You don't want a line length much over 6.5" (possibly less), and you also want to leave the top and bottom inch or so of the page blank. At standard font size for that vintage of printer (in the US at least) that gives you a 52-character line and 50 lines per page. With 6 characters per word (including spaces between words) that's an 8-word line - for the full lines. The last line of a paragraph usually won't be full; if you indent then neither will the first line; any blank lines will of course be blank. I predict that this forum will see a resounding chorus of either "Why didn't we think of that?" or "Wow, that came out of left field!" (and quite possibly both) when the answer is revealed. And the issue with Paz started with establishing that Paz is not "like that". Something a love letter would fly straight in the face of. No, it did not start with establishing any such thing - in fact it is still not established. Paz claiming to be ' not "like that"' doesn't prove anything. There are at least three plausible explanations for that letter being from Paz - remember that the only things we KNOW about it are that it is on computer paper, has a computer-printed heart on it, and was sent to Kat in Annie's room. (Kat deemed it a love-letter without seeing the contents.) a) Trying to smooth over harsh feelings and resume an ordinary friendship b) Apologizing for having (intentionally or unintentionally) started rumors that Kat is a lesbian c) Admitting that Paz *is* lesbian or bisexual, and *is* interested in Kat. (That said, I somehow doubt that the letter is from Paz. Too easy.) Call me a late bloomer but I was so not interested in boys at 14. Okay, you're a late bloomer. Janet and Willy have been an item since about when Annie first arrived at the school, if not before. John and Margo are into each other. Kat had her week with Alistair. Annie was enthusiastic about the thought that Jack was interested in Kat, but it turns out he was and is actually interested in Zimmy who seems to have eyes (or something roughly equivalent) only for Gamma. Paz was interested in Matt who was obsessing on a visitor named Chang'e. Annie is interested enough to discuss going through some of the motions with Jack even though both knew there was no romance between them. Clearly these kids are old enough for at least some of them to have romantic/hormonal interests. (And be really unskilled at distinguishing between the romantic and the hormonal.)
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 23, 2013 1:26:02 GMT
No, it did not start with establishing any such thing - in fact it is still not established. Paz claiming to be ' not "like that"' doesn't prove anything. Wow, I didn't expect to this to be applicable so soon... This reminds me of a recurring argument from another webcomic I read, concerning whether or not a certain character qualified as "Evil" or not. To put it in context, the comic portrays him as a bloodthirsty psychopath and unrepentant murderer. (In the end, the author himself had to explicitly spell it out.) Frankly, this seems just as ridiculous to me.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 23, 2013 1:48:08 GMT
In a certain sense, almost every homosexual individual probably grew up assuming they were straight, just because that's what most everyone around you is. So I wouldn't try to argue that the characters' preferences are set in stone. And we don't have Word of Tom on the matter yet. Until we do, people are free to interpret as they please.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 23, 2013 4:18:24 GMT
So I wouldn't try to argue that the characters' preferences are set in stone. And we don't have Word of Tom on the matter yet. I'm not arguing that they're set in stone, I'm arguing that they are set. Tom has spoken on the matter, through the medium of the comic. Currently, the word is that Paz is not gay. Granted, this may change in the future. But until it does, I see absolutely no reason to discredit the evidence we have. It's just as much a "fact" as anything else said by any other character in the comic. We have no reason to assume that this will change than we do to assume that Zimmy will "get better" anytime soon. Therefore, this possibility is not in any way shape or form "evidence" for anything, and using it as such is just plain invalid. It is possible that the letter is from Paz. But it's also possible that it's from Annie, or Future Kat, or Rey, or Surma, or Zimmy, or the Headmaster, or Jeanne... And with a deficit of any reason why this would be probable, especially given the large number of peculiar details that wouldn't make much sense if the letter were from Paz, I am inevitably drawn to the conclusion that it is not from her. Right now, I can only think of three logical probabilities: - Robot (would be the continuation of a long-running subplot here, would explain the paper and angular heart)
- Random robot (we know the robots adore Kat, would explain the paper and angular heart, could be the first of many letters)
- Random Student (this could be the introduction of a new stalker-like character)
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Post by dracazula on Mar 23, 2013 10:46:43 GMT
I think someone already pointed out why it would be probable for Paz to want to apologize to or make up with Kat, and I don't see any reason that wouldn't make much sense.
As for a new character or a random robot, it doesn't make much sense to me that Tom would base an end-of-book cliffhanger around something so inconsequential. And I still hold to my previous opinion that Robot seems more interested in Shadow than Kat these days.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 23, 2013 15:38:59 GMT
I think someone already pointed out why it would be probable for Paz to want to apologize to or make up with Kat, and I don't see any reason that wouldn't make much sense. And I responded that it is very improbable that this is a make-up letter from Paz. If it was, why would Tom draw it with an angular stylized heart, or use what is unmistakably computer paper, or most of all make a big deal of Kat calling it a love letter? These details are why it wouldn't make sense. As for a new character or a random robot, it doesn't make much sense to me that Tom would base an end-of-book cliffhanger around something so inconsequential. I agree that it is unlikely that Tom is basing it off something inconsequential. However, I do not agree that introducing a new recurring character would be considered a "minor detail". Nor would starting a plot where Kat gets thousands upon thousands of love letters from the Court robots. ;D And I still hold to my previous opinion that Robot seems more interested in Shadow than Kat these days. Possibly, but Robot certainly hasn't forgotten about Kat entirely. A love letter from him wouldn't conflict with anything we've seen, and advancing/returning to/starting up that subplot again certainly would be consequential enough to merit the end-of-book cliffhanger position.
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Post by download on Mar 24, 2013 11:29:18 GMT
It just occurred to me, every previous treatise, except the 1st, signified the ending of a school year, however this time nothing like that has been mentioned. To me that says that Tom is cramming more into the story time wise which to me means it's leading up to something big
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Post by dracazula on Mar 24, 2013 12:34:58 GMT
Possibly because he just felt like it? Or because Paz decided to type the letter up? I send hearts to my friends, especially when making apologies, and Gunnerkrigg is known for this sort of goofiness. He didn't make a big deal of Kat calling it a love letter, he actually made it more of a silly comic relief moment. It's hard to take that as a definite sign of things to come. From what we've seen so far she probably already gets love letters from Court robots. She's always shrugged off their fawning, I doubt she would care now. As for a new character, we shall see.... You were the one who was lecturing me earlier for thinking Tom would bring back what you considered a tied end, and I thought was a loose one. Robot's crush on Kat has seemed pretty tied to me for a while. And if that did happen, where would it lead? The only thing I can think of is conflict between Kat and Shadow, which is sort of weird even by GC standards.
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