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Post by exdevlin on Mar 11, 2013 14:28:55 GMT
Annie visibly wearing the blinker stone around her neck (and not her mother's necklace) Wait, Annie had a necklace from her mother? Do you have a page reference?
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Post by atteSmythe on Mar 11, 2013 14:48:36 GMT
Ominous!
Despite the bright sky, this treatise gives me the most uneasy feeling of any yet. Wonderful!
I absolutely love Microsat and the graph in the space between it and the next lower sphere. Also the photoresistors... light as a metaphor for soul, making the wheel turn? Yet, with an electrical symbol to represent it, that makes me think about the robots and Zimmy's view of Kat and the other/not ether that they may tap into.
Neat stuff. Thanks for another great book, Tom!
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Post by Toloc on Mar 11, 2013 15:19:11 GMT
Also the photoresistors... light as a metaphor for soul, making the wheel turn? Yet, with an electrical symbol to represent it, that makes me think about the robots and Zimmy's view of Kat and the other/not ether that they may tap into. They're angels from one of the trippier verses of the christian bible. The photoresistors would be eyes. So, yeah they would be like robot angels which leads to Kat. I think I prefer ZimmyVision-KatAngel to this one
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Post by Lightice on Mar 11, 2013 15:26:20 GMT
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Post by basser on Mar 11, 2013 15:56:50 GMT
Coyote looks a bit menacing here, probably because we now see he is messing with Y's memories, this page makes me think a lot is about to go down. Menacing? He's herping the derp bigtime. Though granted that's sort of creepy in its own way, the whole "he's a total ridiculous clown and yet he's still horrifying" thing. Also to all the people going on about Kat's arm and Annie's hair colour and all sorts of other little artistic details - speaking as a professional digital artist practically none of that stuff seems to mean anything. Kat's arm looks odd because he pulled the line of her sleeve off frame instead of arcing it up. It's an easy mistake to make and the difference is just a few pixels, pretty clearly not intentional. Annie's hair looks brown in some parts because green plus pink makes brown. She's not wearing eye shadow, that's just the shading of her eyelid. And etc. I mean why aren't you pointing out that the inner wheel on the angel thing isn't quite round or that Coyote's teeth are enormous on the far side of his mouth? Because they're just drawing fudges, not symbolism. Sheesh. Now of course I could be entirely wrong... but I don't really think I am. It's just too easily explained by digital art technique to be intentional. Anyway! The little people on the court side seem to be looking at the stars. If they're meant to be Zimmy and Gamma that could be foreshadowing perhaps? And I find it quite interesting that Tony the eyeball satellite is hanging out opposite the photoresistor angel wheel. Etheric surveillance satellite to oppose the technological surveillance of the thousand-eyes angel-created birds? Assuming Kat is the one who eventually makes the Tic-tocs, of course.
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Post by exdevlin on Mar 11, 2013 16:35:40 GMT
I totally forgot about that. It's been a while since it showed up, though I did notice that she wore a necklace often after coming back from the forest (but without the pendant showing).
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Post by atteSmythe on Mar 11, 2013 17:09:02 GMT
Tony the Eyeball Satellite Nickname: acquired.
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Post by Eversist on Mar 11, 2013 17:17:07 GMT
Sorry if anyone else has mentioned this, but I notice Annie is not wearing her makeup. Does she ever have makeup on in the treatises? Edit: - Is Annie not wearing Makeup? (or has she changed the color of her eye shadow?)
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tpman
Full Member
Posts: 161
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Post by tpman on Mar 11, 2013 18:27:19 GMT
People keep posting my observations before I can. That's stealing and they should stop it. Let's see what I got left: 1. The couple on the Court's circuit board pattern aren't illuminated like the other pathways. Maybe that means they're not really part of the Court or planning on leaving? That only works if they're suppose to be specific people though and would probably eliminate the Donlans from consideration. 2. Twigs in Annie's hair. A reference to Annie's relationship with the Woods or some cool new tree powers? Probably the former, but you never know. 3. What's with the two suns (not including the little one by Wandering Eye)? Or is one the moon? Is it just a inflammation reference?
Remember- it is our duty to over-analyze great works of literature, preferably becoming English teachers so we can badger our students with our views.
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Post by exdevlin on Mar 11, 2013 18:29:07 GMT
Remember- it is our duty to over-analyze great works of literature, preferably becoming English teachers so we can badger our students with our views. But of course.
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Post by exuberancium on Mar 11, 2013 18:49:16 GMT
The wheel within a wheel is an Ophanim, WELL THEN What? I don't get i- ohhhhhhhh. Thousand eyes. Maybe we'll learn more - or at least see more of - the Tic Tocs in this treatise?
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 11, 2013 18:51:09 GMT
It's just too easily explained by digital art technique to be intentional. Except that Tom spends a LOT of time with the details for the Treatises. If he had made a significant mistake, he would have noticed and corrected it. Look at Kat's upper-right arm. Now look at the forearm attached to the hand that's on Antimony's. Then try to hold that pose yourself. The wheel within a wheel is an Ophanim, WELL THEN Remember these guys? I don't think it represents Kat, but Kat's creation. There's been a lot of hints that seem to point to Kat, but which could actually be pointing that way instead... Notice where the bone hand touches Annie's hair, it's turned brown? I still think these represent her father, and he is trying to remove her fire spirit. I'm reasonably sure it's just a tinted light from the forest; it's the same further up her hair on that side where no bones are involved, and there's similar lighting on her face. Nevertheless, I think they may still represent that. EDIT: Actually, maybe that's just another student's hand. ...maybe a new character? I hope it belongs to whomever sent Kat that love letter. (It doesn't have to be a robot, after all.) Why does Kat have a heart with a strike-through? Did she not appreciate the love letter and swear off romance for ever? Probably not, but I could imagine that she might be a tad disdainful of her would-be suitor.
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tpman
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Post by tpman on Mar 11, 2013 19:00:45 GMT
Oh yah! About that hand that might or might not be Kat's. The hand is on top of Annie's hand which is on Kat's shoulder. This could symbolize that Annie has a firmer grip on Kat than the owner of the hand or that the mystery hand person has some influence over Antmony through Annie's connection with Kat.
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Post by faythofdragons on Mar 11, 2013 19:04:38 GMT
Look at Kat's upper-right arm. Now look at the forearm attached to the hand that's on Antimony's. Then try to hold that pose yourself. Kat's right hand is on Annie's hand. Her left hand is holding the feather. It's not an awkward position at all. I can't really draw on the computer, but this is what I think is going on below the frame.
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sotha
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Post by sotha on Mar 11, 2013 19:20:26 GMT
I think Coyote looks a little like Renard when he fox-called. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=688Perhaps the owner of the hand is ambiguous (in that the perspective straddles the line between obviously being Kat's and obviously being someone else's) in order to represent both Kat and that someone else simultaneously. I'm just kidding, of course. I still think it is not Kat's. Her torso is twisted too much in the opposite direction of how it would be were that to be remotely comfortable.
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Post by GK Sierra on Mar 11, 2013 19:40:40 GMT
Does anyone else see that eye above Annie as the Microstat 5? Same amount of panels and everything. Interestingly enough - Jones' "wandering eye" symbol looks very similar to the microsat. Actually, I was thinking that it looked a lot like Anthony's eye. He is somehow connected to the satellite (bones going up into space along which Zimmy sent the "message from yer lil' girl mate!") but it hasn't been fully explained yet. Come to think of it, didn't Antimony get sick only a little while after sending the rocket up to the satellite?
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Post by dracazula on Mar 11, 2013 20:00:55 GMT
The incredible density of symbolism on this page magnetically drew me out of the lurkers' corner to make an account. If I remember right it was the chapter immediately after - too bad we don't know just what was sent up. Based on the skin tone and the sleeve, plus the fact that someone other than Kat would have to be lying down below the frame of the panel to get their hand there and not be seen, I think Kat is still the most plausible answer. I'm dying to know what's up with that feather in the corner, since I can't think of anything that happened this book which really involved birds. Could it possibly be confirmation of the theory that Kat's bird-boyfriend is returning?
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Post by Lightice on Mar 11, 2013 20:02:00 GMT
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 11, 2013 20:05:25 GMT
Something that nobody else has noticed yet: There appears to be two snake-like shapes inside the "eye" everyone thinks is Microsat 5. I have no idea what it means, but if you look closely it's quite distinct. Kat's right hand is on Annie's hand. Her left hand is holding the feather. It's not an awkward position at all. I can't really draw on the computer, but this is what I think is going on below the frame. That doesn't work, though. Even assuming the perspective on the forearm is off, Kat's upper arm is clearly at her side. It isn't a matter of being awkward. It's a matter of being geometrically and physically possible. If Kat had her right hand on her left arm, especially with her hand twisted so that the palm faces downwards like that, then her shoulder wouldn't be in a position that's even remotely like where it is depicted in the Treatise.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 11, 2013 20:09:24 GMT
The problem is that this is art, so if Escher can draw the physically impossible so can Tom.
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Karretch
New Member
Big alien robot
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Post by Karretch on Mar 11, 2013 20:22:13 GMT
While people have focused on the heart being crossed out on Kat's shirt, what I've noticed is that those 'notches' in the pink border I'm convinced are another line BEHIND the heart similar to the pink one in front. What this means? My two wild guesses are Kat's heart caught up in a trap of some sort and can't decide OR while the outside, the pink, is blocked from creating a love connection there's an unknown, empty/white, love connection there.
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crank
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Post by crank on Mar 11, 2013 20:31:17 GMT
Hmmm... I think the hand is Kat's. It matches her skin tone, and I don't think it's a weird pose at all... I mean, it would be completely random to have some 3rd person's hand there. It could be, but for the moment I'm going to assume it's Kat.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 11, 2013 20:42:47 GMT
The problem is that this is art, so if Escher can draw the physically impossible so can Tom. I'm assuming that Tom is trying to portray things in a physically realistic way. This is the same debate that people had with Annie's hand in months ago.I have no idea what you're talking about in that one. Everything looks pretty clear there, and physically possible. There's really nothing to even remotely suggest any other possibility; the skin-tone, colour of the sleeve and the position all make it perfectly clear that the hand belongs to Kat. Skin tones aren't very unique, and neither is the sleeve of a uniform. And it's the positioning that suggests it isn't Kat's hand: the position of her shoulder is physically incompatible with the position of the hand. Anything suggesting otherwise is at best a minor artistic flub on Tom's part You find the idea that Tom made a mistake on the Treatise (where he knows we're going to pick apart every little detail) to be more likely than the idea that he's foreshadowing something that hasn't happened yet, which he has done in every Treatise before?
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quoodle
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Just a man on a planet
Posts: 168
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Post by quoodle on Mar 11, 2013 20:48:36 GMT
Kat's right hand is on Annie's hand. Her left hand is holding the feather. It's not an awkward position at all. I can't really draw on the computer, but this is what I think is going on below the frame. I like your drawing I think it explains Kat's right arm and the hand well. (That along with skin color, this lays this issue to rest in my mind). As for the feather and the left arm - I don't see any significance of her holding the feather in her let hand or her just letting her hand hang down and the feather is right beside her.
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Post by dracazula on Mar 11, 2013 20:49:03 GMT
But that doesn't mean he gets things perfect every time. And a number of us don't find the position that unrealistic.
It's clear that Annie's and Kat's skin tones have different shading in this picture, and that the hand matches Kat's.
Why would he foreshadow something in a way that's so confusing? Again, where is the owner of that hand if it's not Kat? They'd have to be lying somewhere under the frame - it's not a very intuitive position.
Anyway, this is just like the situation with Annie's hand back in Divine. We can solve this one the same way if someone just sends the question to Tom.
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Post by Lightice on Mar 11, 2013 20:55:57 GMT
And it's the positioning that suggests it isn't Kat's hand: the position of her shoulder is physically incompatible with the position of the hand. Sorry, but that's not the case. Look at faythofdragons's excellent silhouette above. I said "at best". But I've seen similar so-called "errors" in actual photographs and famous works of art. Look at Leonardo da Vinci's The Last Supper and its supposedly disembodied hand for a similar illusion, for example. You are being cheated by your perception, that's all there is to it. I can bet you fifty quid on it, too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 20:57:05 GMT
As for the feather and the left arm - I don't see any significance of her holding the feather in her let hand or her just letting her hand hang down and the feather is right beside her. I think that if this is the case, it could make for a nice visual metaphor. Kat being all twisted up and pulled by the whims of her heart, her best friend, and those zany court robots.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 11, 2013 21:02:29 GMT
But that doesn't mean he gets things perfect every time. And a number of us don't find the position that unrealistic. Agreed. I find it more likely that Tom, while a good artist, is far from perfect, then that being someone else's hand. Kat's upper arm just needs to angle across her chest and bam, there's the pose. And yes, I can copy that pose just fine.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 11, 2013 21:04:41 GMT
Sorry, but that's not the case. Look at faythofdragons's excellent silhouette above. And? I saw it, and it doesn't change the fact that Kat's bones would have to stretch and bend, and her joints twist in unnatural angles, in order for that to be her hand.
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Post by Nnelg on Mar 11, 2013 21:06:57 GMT
Agreed. I find it more likely that Tom, while a good artist, is far from perfect, then that being someone else's hand. Kat's upper arm just needs to angle across her chest and bam, there's the pose. And yes, I can copy that pose just fine. Oh really? Now try it with your palm facing the ground, your upper arm/shoulder pointed downwards, and wrist mostly straight.
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