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Post by warrl on Nov 9, 2012 21:30:23 GMT
If we assume Coyote is telling the truth, then I think it's also safe to assume that Jones was retroactively given form by human imagination. Oh, we can be much more perverse than that. Coyote exists because humans imagined him into existence. Humans exist because Jones imagined us into existence.
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Post by Mitth'raw'nuruodo on Nov 9, 2012 21:33:05 GMT
Somehow I get the feeling that Jones will stop being stoic once she finds out what she is. Because we will find out at one point. Right guys? ...Guys? Possibly. If the narrative continues in a direction where it is important to find out about Jones's past. She well be killed, or destroyed (or whatever it is that immortals do). Point being, most of our concerns about Jones have been answered. Now we can turn back to whatever in the world Coyote is doing.
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Post by williamansley on Nov 9, 2012 21:58:56 GMT
Leaving aside all questions about what Jones is, I am interested in how we are supposed to interpret what we have been shown in the last 20 pages. Are these the memories that are passing through Jones' mind as she prepares a cup of tea for Annie and describes her history in a few words? Are they a visual representation of the story Jones is telling Annie, from Jones' point of view? Or are we seeing what Annie is visualizing, based on what Jones is telling her, as someone has already suggested in this thread? I currently am assuming that the scenes we have been shown are what actually happened (in the context of the story), or at least what Jones remembers to have happened, as opposed to what Annie imagines happened, based on what Jones told her. If it is supposed to be what Annie is imagining, then things start to get very messy and unreliable. But, if each page of this chapter that shows a flashback is supposed to correspond directly to some statement Jones has just made to Annie, then the first few pages seem problematic. Are we supposed to assume that Jones said something like this, "Yesterday, I handed my report about who should be the next medium to the headmaster. A week ago I sat on a couch and read a book with James Eglamore's head on my lap. I was stroking his hair. Years ago I stood on a cliff with James and we watched the Rogat Orjaks in flight. He was covered in bandages and smiled at me. Several years ago I consoled him when he was in distress because of being rejected by your mother in favor of your father. Many years ago, when he was a boy, I introduced James to Donald Donlan for the first time. Decades ago I took James from his family and brought him to Gunnerkrigg Court for the first time," and so on? While it may not be out of character for Jones to start out in this rather enigmatic way, it surely is out of character for Annie, especially an angry, worked-up Annie to listen to this story without continually interrupting, either to tell Jones to get on with it or to demand more details, such as: - "Who did you recommend as the medium?"
- "You did what with Mr. Eglamore?"
- "Why did my mother break up with him?"
Therefore, I am not sure what we are to suppose Jones told Annie, except that it included the fact that Jones was there at the formation of the earth.
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qiam
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Post by qiam on Nov 9, 2012 22:42:51 GMT
Do you guys think Jones feels genuine emotions?
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Post by nero on Nov 9, 2012 23:02:25 GMT
Jones does care for all the people she has met, or at the very least respect them. I hope she can help Annie. Perhaps Jones was created in the GC universe to be a mystery to everyone even herself. Someone wanted the earth to hold a secret no one can ever find out.
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Post by sebastian on Nov 9, 2012 23:38:52 GMT
She was born of rock, that much we know. Are you absolutely, positively sure of that? I wouldn't. And she could've existed before, just not aware enough, or the memory of that didn't survive. I guess we are are none the smarter. Also, the mystery of "Why is Jones so detached" suddenly turns into: "Why is she bothering with people at all". Maybe she is bored. I mean, she passed some milions years stuck into solid rock, probably conscious all that time, that more than enough alone time even for the more misanthropic of the individuals. I'm more interested in the implications of Jones's form. That there was something humanoid on Earth eons before life itself was formed... what does could mean? Maybe she is a kind of ... observer!? A kind of "wandering eye", to coin a phrase, something put there by someone or something that knew humans would appear so that she could go around checking them out or maybe not just watching but also subtly pushing them in certain directions?
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Post by smjjames on Nov 9, 2012 23:39:19 GMT
Do you guys think Jones feels genuine emotions? Maybe, if the downturn of her lips here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=1107 is genuine and not a compression artifact or something. But yeah she looks plenty annoyed/sad or something there.
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Post by Per on Nov 9, 2012 23:42:59 GMT
What are genuine emotions anyway?
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Post by smjjames on Nov 9, 2012 23:54:43 GMT
What are genuine emotions anyway? Exactly.
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 10, 2012 0:29:35 GMT
Leaving aside all questions about what Jones is, I am interested in how we are supposed to interpret what we have been shown in the last 20 pages. Are these the memories that are passing through Jones' mind as she prepares a cup of tea for Annie and describes her history in a few words? Are they a visual representation of the story Jones is telling Annie, from Jones' point of view? Or are we seeing what Annie is visualizing, based on what Jones is telling her, as someone has already suggested in this thread? I currently am assuming that the scenes we have been shown are what actually happened (in the context of the story), or at least what Jones remembers to have happened, as opposed to what Annie imagines happened, based on what Jones told her. If it is supposed to be what Annie is imagining, then things start to get very messy and unreliable. But, if each page of this chapter that shows a flashback is supposed to correspond directly to some statement Jones has just made to Annie, then the first few pages seem problematic. Are we supposed to assume that Jones said something like this, "Yesterday, I handed my report about who should be the next medium to the headmaster. A week ago I sat on a couch and read a book with James Eglamore's head on my lap. I was stroking his hair. Years ago I stood on a cliff with James and we watched the Rogat Orjaks in flight. He was covered in bandages and smiled at me. Several years ago I consoled him when he was in distress because of being rejected by your mother in favor of your father. Many years ago, when he was a boy, I introduced James to Donald Donlan for the first time. Decades ago I took James from his family and brought him to Gunnerkrigg Court for the first time," and so on? While it may not be out of character for Jones to start out in this rather enigmatic way, it surely is out of character for Annie, especially an angry, worked-up Annie to listen to this story without continually interrupting, either to tell Jones to get on with it or to demand more details, such as: - "Who did you recommend as the medium?"
- "You did what with Mr. Eglamore?"
- "Why did my mother break up with him?"
Therefore, I am not sure what we are to suppose Jones told Annie, except that it included the fact that Jones was there at the formation of the earth. Can I offer you some cookies? This was a great post. I think however that we are supposed to understand that she told all that and ended it up with "I was there in the formation of the earth" or something to that effect. Considering that Annie is drinking tea, Jones didn't just bluntly throw up a series of memories on her, but started with something like, "okay, now it may be the time for this... would you want to sit down for some tea while I tell the story?" So, then we do not have an angry Annie, but one finally getting an answer to the mystery that has bugged her? I don't think supposed to think that she just described those scenes, but rather that they are momentary images of her story. Maybe she started by telling about her role in the court, then about her relation to JimmyJims, something Annie was already aware of, then about Jimmy and Donny, then to go on with that, "yeah I've been there before the court, in fact..." So, I take it that rather Annie heard more than what we saw. But I have little doubts about the first page. Did she actually tell Annie, "yesterday I gave my recommendation for the new medium, but not telling who - haha!" Okay, there is a more plausible route to this: that she told her that the choice, which she by the way just has made, is part of her job but it is kind of hush hush, not supposed to tell anybody especially not to Annie. And then alternatives: she did not tell about that all; or she told Annie that yesterday, she went to recommend Annie for the new medium.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 10, 2012 1:09:50 GMT
Leaving aside all questions about what Jones is, I am interested in how we are supposed to interpret what we have been shown in the last 20 pages... While it may not be out of character for Jones to start out in this rather enigmatic way, it surely is out of character for Annie, especially an angry, worked-up Annie to listen to this story without continually interrupting, either to tell Jones to get on with it or to demand more details... Therefore, I am not sure what we are to suppose Jones told Annie, except that it included the fact that Jones was there at the formation of the earth. This is a common problem with the long-form comics. You just can't fit normal dialog into the panels because it takes up too much space in word bubbles. Communication between characters can be stunted and mindbendingly-obvious follow-up questions just don't get asked. The plot of a comic sometimes goes in different directions then it otherwise would because of that limitation and some people do not like comics for that reason. Some artists who shall remain nameless have tried to fix that with extensive use of inset text blocks but that leads to more text than story on some pages (where plot demands) and a cluttered appearance overall. Once in a while where there is recap or inner dialog going on I've seen entire pages of text punctuated by lonely doodles in the middle-ish... But I digress. The only thing to do when reading comics is retroactively reinterpret past panels/pages when new pages come out, or ask the author to clarify via Formspring if it is not plot-related.
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wags
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Post by wags on Nov 10, 2012 1:10:28 GMT
This perception issue is important. We don't know Jones was shaped like Jones when she was floating in lava, sitting on the bottom of the sea, or even when she walked off the glacier.
She'd remember it that way because that's how she see's herself, or how Annie pictures here, but the key images I see when looking at this is Jones didn't open her eyes till something looked at her. We don't see here move until she(the stone) had been moved by a glacier.
These two things are great examples of Coyote's theory that things are made by life's perceptions. A Precambrian life thinks it see's another eye in the rock, and so the rock begins to see. A Iceage sapience see's a rock perhaps shaped like a woman on the moving (retreating) stone, feels it watching him, he knows it walks, and so like anyone else it(she) walks off the mountain for better climes
I started this still wondering why Jones has no etheric color, but if she was born in someone's image of the woman of the cold mountain, then it makes sense in anthropological/coincidental magic terms: cold=hungry=empty. The stone atop the cold beautiful mountain, that people can already somehow perceive is watching becomes the beautiful empty woman who walks off it after they've imprinted her into the stone.
My thoughts are partly influenced by similar concepts in "The emperor's soul" and "Crown of shadows."
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Post by smjjames on Nov 10, 2012 2:29:28 GMT
Precambrian life thinks it see's another eye in the rock, That's Silurian, not Precambrian!
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zale
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Post by zale on Nov 10, 2012 3:18:08 GMT
Jones is basically indestructible and utterly autonomous from the world. Jones is not even slightly human. A human couldn't physically survive her existence, obviously.. but something with human psychology couldn't either. Think of this: Jones sat at the bottom of an ocean for more time than the whole of human history. Why didn't she make an attempt to free herself? Even so constrained, she could have wiggled her way out in a manner of a few hundred thousand years- A small fraction of the time she spent there. Why not? Because she doesn't feel the need to. Humans are driven by the needs of the body and the needs of the mind. Jones isn't. Jones doesn't need air. Doesn't need food. Doesn't need water. Doesn't need a constant temperature. Doesn't need to move. Doesn't need to talk. Doesn't need to be entertained. Jones really doesn't need anything to continue her existence. That's why she doesn't consider herself alive. She contrasts what she is with what humans are.. Humans are alive. She doesn't feel that she is. This theory adds an interesting layer to this. Jones isn't human, but she looks it. Before Humanity existed, Jones had no reason to do anything. No drive, no needs, no desires. Humans came along and looked at her- And saw one of their own. A stronger, tougher, unaging human. She looks like one of us, moves like one of us, therefore must be a Human, right? But she's not. Humans gave her purposes. Things to be, things to do. Humanity may not have created her, but they did make her into Jones.
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Post by seaofalchemy on Nov 10, 2012 4:13:26 GMT
Somehow I get the feeling that Jones will stop being stoic once she finds out what she is. Because we will find out at one point. Right guys? ...Guys? Ooh, I really like this. I sure hope she does find out. Not now, but eventually. Tom said Jones was his own creation (we've heard this many times in the forum and I'm sorry if it's gotten annoying for repeating it, hehe) and I was hoping we'd really find out what she is. Like, if Tom has a made-up word for her. I just don't buy "I do not know what I am. Mystery solved" and just leaving it at that. I don't want to assume that that's all the answers we're going to get regarding her true being. I would just feel kinda ripped off. But I'm glad we know more about her than we ever did before. So I could live with not completely knowing what she is. If anything, it'd still be fun for us to try to figure out her true being. Coming up with new theories, weighing all the possibilities, etc. I don't know if I'd like to see her showing emotion, though. That would just be a little creepy. Interesting, but creepy, hahaha. Is she even able to move her facial muscles to form a smile? Besides moving her lips to talk, closing her eyelids, moving her eyeballs, the occasional slightly furrowed eyebrows, and "kissing" Eglamore, she's never shown and facial muscle movement... has she?
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Post by Eversist on Nov 10, 2012 4:26:59 GMT
But why does she take other people's names? And why did Coyote say she steals them? He must know what she is. The names thing seems to be just a mixture of convienence and sentimentality. And Renard seems to think Coyote doesn't. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=593Yeah, that's a good point. But he said that she illustrates his theory perfectly. How could he say that without knowing what she is? Jones is not even slightly human. She can be alive without being human, no?
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Post by warrl on Nov 10, 2012 6:35:00 GMT
But I have little doubts about the first page. Did she actually tell Annie, "yesterday I gave my recommendation for the new medium, but not telling who - haha!" Okay, there is a more plausible route to this: that she told her that the choice, which she by the way just has made, is part of her job but it is kind of hush hush, not supposed to tell anybody especially not to Annie. And then alternatives: she did not tell about that all; or she told Annie that yesterday, she went to recommend Annie for the new medium. "Yesterday I recommended that you be formally appointed the new medium, and the headmaster agreed; which means, among other things, that you need to know about me..."
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Post by whitehawk on Nov 10, 2012 7:57:51 GMT
I'm more interested in the implications of Jones's form. That there was something humanoid on Earth eons before life itself was formed... what does could mean? Maybe she is a kind of ... observer!? A kind of "wandering eye", to coin a phrase, something put there by someone or something that knew humans would appear so that she could go around checking them out or maybe not just watching but also subtly pushing them in certain directions? This is the sort of thing that fascinates Mr Heidegger from the previous page. What is consciousness? Is consciousness such a great thing? Does it make life better? Is perceiving life as better, worse or indifferent possible if you are not conscious?
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Post by noone3 on Nov 10, 2012 18:33:11 GMT
I would just feel kinda ripped off. Yup. "Hear me Tom? I want my money back... er wait..." And as for me personally I'm quite happy with whatever Tom came up with so far, so I'd be equally happy trusting his judgment about the story further on. And After all is said and done it's his story, and anyone unhappy with it can really do nothing about it (unless he's planning something bad after watching "Misery" too many times). Oh, and I actually came up with a new theory of what really happened: The whole "memories from the history of mankind" were just a clever way of obscuring the real panels, placed underneath, on which Annie and Jones had a long, revealing talk about everything we don't really have to know.
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Khârn
New Member
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Posts: 12
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Post by Khârn on Nov 10, 2012 18:37:36 GMT
Maybe Kat or Paz will be made the Medium! IT FITS WITH THE REST OF THIS CHAPTER'S ANTICS. Also, it would CONFUSE AND FRUSTRATE THE MAIN CHARACTER allowing her to advance the plot through DRAMA AND TEARS.
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Post by seaofalchemy on Nov 10, 2012 18:38:46 GMT
I would just feel kinda ripped off. Yup. "Hear me Tom? I want my money back... er wait..." And as for me personally I'm quite happy with whatever Tom came up with so far, so I'd be equally happy trusting his judgment about the story further on. And After all is said and done it's his story, and anyone unhappy with it can really do nothing about it (unless he's planning something bad after watching "Misery" too many times). Which is why I said: But I'm glad we know more about her than we ever did before. So I could live with not completely knowing what she is. If anything, it'd still be fun for us to try to figure out her true being. Coming up with new theories, weighing all the possibilities, etc.
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Post by sofiaoh on Nov 10, 2012 19:38:21 GMT
So... does Jones not have a soul? Having a soul and being alive seem like they could be very different things. She might well have a soul and not be alive. I very much doubt that Jones doesn't feel anything. She is alive if you simply discount metabolism and biological processes. Actually, the word for soul in ancient times (psuche, or "psyche" in Greek and "anima" in Latin) was DEFINED as that thing which gives life. If Jones is not alive, she has no soul (in this ancient sense), and thus she is a PURE NON-ETHERIC BEING! Holy wow. Maybe that IS it.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 10, 2012 22:21:56 GMT
The whole "memories from the history of mankind" were just a clever way of obscuring the real panels, placed underneath, on which Annie and Jones had a long, revealing talk about everything we don't really have to know. This is likely true. It's a common story-telling technique so we don't have to be inundated with redundant dialogue. I mean redundant in that the last chapter was rather text-heavy. This was a nice change-of-pace chapter that will likely go very well in book form. EDIT: "text-heavy" isn't quite the word I'm looking for. If Jones is not alive, she has no soul (in this ancient sense), and thus she is a PURE NON-ETHERIC BEING! Holy wow. Maybe that IS it. She has no presence in the ether. I would thusly agree.
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 10, 2012 22:28:28 GMT
Maybe Kat or Paz will be made the Medium! Come to think of it, Paz would make a great ambassador to the forest, seeing as how she can talk to animals.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 10, 2012 22:32:12 GMT
Maybe Kat or Paz will be made the Medium! Come to think of it, Paz would make a great ambassador to the forest, seeing as how she can talk to animals. Nah, she's busy directing City Face.
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Post by todd on Nov 10, 2012 23:48:35 GMT
Maybe Kat or Paz will be made the Medium! IT FITS WITH THE REST OF THIS CHAPTER'S ANTICS. Also, it would CONFUSE AND FRUSTRATE THE MAIN CHARACTER allowing her to advance the plot through DRAMA AND TEARS.Wouldn't that be cheating? Neither of them have taken medium classes (unless they've been taking secret ones that the audience hasn't been told about).
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Post by OrzBrain on Nov 11, 2012 2:32:17 GMT
We're all looking at her as though she thinks like a human. She looks it, after all. But she isn't. I can't imagine any human being able to survive 4 billion years of complete solitude without going completely off their gourd. Compared to that, all of human history is a rounding error. Why does she put up with humans? Why does she help them, cherish them? Why does she take their names? Based on everything we've seen from her up to this point, I'd guess: because she finds us interesting. I can see in her no other motivation. But she was here long before us, and she must realize that we too will pass, as she watched so many other species do before us. She must realize that even the sun will pass, and before it does, it will swallow the earth. Swimming in a plasma sea might interest her for a time, but how much more interesting would it be to head for other stars? Maybe she's ultimately angling for interstellar space travel, and sees the court as the most likely to produce that ability. Hah. Ask her about the stars in the sky indeed. I like this. I really like this. The idea that at some point in the last few hundred years Jones conceived a desire to go to the stars, and that since then she has been manipulating events to that end. I suppose that would mean that we skipped the flashback scenes where she started World War 1 and World War 2 in an effort to speed up the rate of technological advance. ;D...heh heh hehe. Just joking. I think.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 11, 2012 3:47:35 GMT
I suppose that would mean that we skipped the flashback scenes where she started World War 1 and World War 2 in an effort to speed up the rate of technological advance. ;D...heh heh hehe. Just joking. I think. Keep going... Jones as a villain? YES.
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 11, 2012 8:59:35 GMT
Jones is not even slightly human. She can be alive without being human, no? I think the point was to opposite direction: she cannot be human if she is "unliving", indestroyable stone from the time of formation of the Earth or beyond. That kind of just is not the slightest bit human.
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 11, 2012 9:01:17 GMT
Maybe Kat or Paz will be made the Medium! Come to think of it, Paz would make a great ambassador to the forest, seeing as how she can talk to animals. True. Also Gamma. But she is busy dealing with Zimmy, so maybe it would just lead to a catastrophe.
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