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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 9, 2012 13:49:20 GMT
[quote author=elco board=general thread=1715 post=74231 Ah, but she was certainly BORN TO ROCK [/quote] LAUGHING ON LINE -- you are awesome! Between the party hat and the Blingee GIF, I think this has now been totally confirmed!
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Post by hnau on Nov 9, 2012 13:50:07 GMT
Is Mort alive? Or Jeanne? Are robots alive? The definition of "alive" might be that a being is material as well as ethereal. Mort and Jeanne are purely ethereal, so they are not "alive". Robots and Jones are purely material, so they are not "alive", either. We're all biological machines. We just have a well-developed head's up display that we call consciousness to help direct our complex bodies. Sometimes this HUD ponders the universe and invents weird abstract concepts like irony. Well, the world continues to spin, pup.
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Post by sofiaoh on Nov 9, 2012 13:57:12 GMT
Is Mort alive? Or Jeanne? Are robots alive? The definition of "alive" might be that a being is material as well as ethereal. Mort and Jeanne are purely ethereal, so they are not "alive". Robots and Jones are purely material, so they are not "alive", either. THIS!! Maybe Tom is trolling us with some obscure Aristotelian metaphysics!! Either that or it's some kind of Being and Time thing where Being is prior to Beings and Jones is the Being of the Earth and not actually a Dasien and I'm going to stop now because I'm not Heidegger... so I'll leave you WITH AN OBSCURE QUOTE! The existential and ontological constitution of the totality of Dasein is grounded in temporality. Accordingly, a primordial mode of temporalizing of ecstatic temporality itself must make the ecstatic project of being in general possible. How is this mode of temporalizing of temporality to be interpreted? Is there a way leading from primordial time to the meaning of being? Does time itself reveal itself as the horizon of being? (Point being, probably even Heidegger would be confused).
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 9, 2012 14:03:58 GMT
;D From last thread: Man honestly, for me it would be enough if this (what we've seen) is Jones's origin story. She emerged as-is from the magma of our forming planet. Done. Most mythical supernatural beings don't have any more of a specific origin than this. And... yup! She emerged as-is from the magma of our forming planet. She doesn't remember before that any more than we remember before our birth. She doesn't know "what she is" any more than we would if we never met another being like us. Jones is A. NEW. THING. of Tom's invention, not "an alien" or "a time traveling golem" or "gaia". We can learn more ABOUT her, but we can never learn "what she is" if you'll only be satisfied with a word that connects her to some pre-existing mythology. There's an awful lot of myths. A mythic-type character with absolutely no parallels to real life mythology is a very tall order. Also, even if that is the case then connections to myths are only out as an origin. Though the comic was silent through the proto-Hellenic period I fully expect Jones to be the inspiration or seed of truth behind the myth of Pygmalion in the Gunnerverse, and probably also an "icon" of Hathor. All that is needed for that is for Jones to be interacting with humans as she's done in other ages (including the present). And even if we never learn anything more about Jones than we have so far in this chapter we can still generate theories about how and why she came to be by learning about how the Gunnerverse works. I've come up with two possibilities on that already. ;D
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Khârn
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
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Post by Khârn on Nov 9, 2012 14:24:44 GMT
Dudes stop calling Tom a troll; defying the expectation of the readers has nothing to do with trolling (viz: saying random, nonsensical and/or offensive shit for the sole purpose of making someone angry). I will apply to him the NAME MANFRED VON SLIEPHEIM IF I SO CHOOSE. And what is trolling but an attempt to provoke a reaction? IF NOTHING ELSE EVERYONE CALLING TOM a troll seemed to get you ALL RILED UP. I am also SO GLAD THAT ALL POSSIBLE QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN RESOLVED. Obviously we should never QUESTION THE GOD OF TRICKERY that is Coyote and BLINDLY BELIEVE IN WHAT HE SAYS simply because he said it? Why, because some immortal being said HE DOESN'T LIE and he said that HE WAS MADE UP. Funny. I guess I shall now claim that I am the son of the BLOOD GOD KHORNE AND THE COLLECTIVE EMOTIONS OF CHILDBIRTH. Now all I need for everyone to believe me is to get Jones to say I DON'T LIE.TL;DR: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE. Unless it comes in ALL CAPS AND BOLD.
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quoodle
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Just a man on a planet
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Post by quoodle on Nov 9, 2012 15:04:26 GMT
Wow, some good observations here.
Notice Jones said "I consider myself to not be alive" - That's a neutral third-party observation. Since she has no other thing to compare her existence (!) to, she doesn't know "what" she is (there is no category for a single unique thing). Nothing to compare it to and say "I am a golem" or "I am a rock creature". As humans, we like to think our categorizations are "the truth" - but in essence, they are just names we devise. (Like the biblical story of Adam naming the animals).
She has seen life develop so she knows: It's a biological process (Plants, animals). It is humans who take their existence and extend the concept of "life" to moving things which no biological basis. Is a god alive? Only if alive means movement and awareness. But what about ghosts? If ghosts exist (if) - they are not alive but dead. But they have awareness in our stories. But they're still our stories.
This goes back to Coyote - this *is* a perfect example of what he's talking about. It is Humans who think those who move and have awareness as alive (as Annie and we have assumed Jones to be). It's anthropomorphism in a sense. These other things *may* exist on their own, but their meaning is given in relationship to humans.
So, humans didn't *create* by believing in her. She existed (God knows how or what form) - but humans gave her meaning.
So - back to Coyote - he didn't say he didn't exist (well, he did, but he clarified it later), he said he could barely be said to exist at all. It's stories of man which made the difference.
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Post by legion on Nov 9, 2012 15:29:38 GMT
And what is trolling but an attempt to provoke a reaction? An attempt to provoke a reaction defines any form of interaction with an animated being and/or object so calling this "trolling" pretty much makes "trolling" meaningless and you will stop using boldface and allcaps this instant or else
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Post by Per on Nov 9, 2012 15:36:10 GMT
It seems the "personification of Earth" theory is gaining ground. Funnily, the last page also opens up for the Galatea theory to live on in a way - she just hasn't been humanified yet. And maybe her human interactions are a way of attempting that. We'd have to figure out be explained why Coyote retains memory of having been an animal while Jones does not remember being a stone... I'm fairly sure Coyote was never a specific animal. He is the idea of animal-as-trickster-god given existence (or non-existence if he is to be believed). Wow, of all the possibilities it seems we completely overlooked one of the simplest. Wild mass guessing. Nothing has been overlooked.
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Post by bansheekitty on Nov 9, 2012 15:55:44 GMT
Perhaps this isn't the first time that she has existed in this form, 'wandering' may perhaps imply cosmogyration, perhaps every planet that fits a certain criterion, e.g.: supporting life at some point in its lifetime as perhaps Coyote's link to the collective consciousness of humanity and his knowledge of her nature, at least up until a point are related, she may also be a similar product or he may, as an aether-field perturbatory being, transcend time in some way. Interesting. I have to say, that when I combined "Wandering Eye" with Coyote's statement to ask Jones about the stars, I immediately thought "planets = wanderers, could Jones have any connection with the other planets"? But I doubt it.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 9, 2012 15:56:54 GMT
RAWR Mystery Solved Yeah, I officially lost it when I saw that. Can't stop laughing. Did Tom tense us up with all those pages just so he could pull this gag?
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 9, 2012 16:04:27 GMT
But why does she take other people's names? And why did Coyote say she steals them? He must know what she is. She doesn't know what she is so she adopts others identities I did say it many threads ago. Wandering I.
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Post by exdevlin on Nov 9, 2012 16:34:57 GMT
I am.. kind of crushed.
Jones has been around for so long, and has seen humanity evolve so much, that she's just learned to go through the motions of having emotions and feelings for others. Her relationship with Eggers now has a bit of a downcast light on it. If she's never been alive, does she know feelings? Love? Can you feel those if you aren't "alive"?
LAUGHING ON LINE at Tom's Blingee banner at the bottom. NICE AVIATORS.
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Post by picrasso on Nov 9, 2012 16:46:50 GMT
If Jones is supposed to be Mother Earth, why is she not more 'motherly'? She could be the spirit of a/the planet, but I'm also thinking she might be a deistic godess (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism) or a high functionary in such a system. What baffles me, then is that Coyote even has power over her, or perhaps if she allows it. They seem to be at odds: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=825
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 9, 2012 16:49:19 GMT
She's not alive? I knew it! She IS a robot! It's worse than that, though - even the robots are alive! Dudes stop calling Tom a troll; defying the expectation of the readers has nothing to do with trolling (viz: saying random, nonsensical and/or offensive shit for the sole purpose of making someone angry). A thousand times this.
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Post by picrasso on Nov 9, 2012 16:52:48 GMT
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 9, 2012 17:10:58 GMT
I think maybe Kat will have a chance to examine her.
Jones could be a Jinni. This is NOT based off myth. A Jinni is a figure that has no beginning. Its timeline is a loop.
An example: Old woman gives man a watch. Man travels back in time and gives watch to young woman. Woman grows up to give the watch to the man. Repeat ad nauseum. But where did the watch come from? The watch is a Jinni. It has the unique property of existing infinitely. Yet, it never wears down. It's indestructable, in order to keep the time loop.
I have a theory that time travel can be used to describe any situation, given enough imagination.
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 9, 2012 17:12:15 GMT
Aw-sum. :___]_
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Triple Sharp
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My excellence is below super average.
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Post by Triple Sharp on Nov 9, 2012 17:29:07 GMT
My comment for this page:
I like to be very expressive on the comments page. ¦]
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Post by exuberancium on Nov 9, 2012 17:35:04 GMT
So... does Jones not have a soul?
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Triple Sharp
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Post by Triple Sharp on Nov 9, 2012 17:42:01 GMT
So... does Jones not have a soul? That's a very interesting question, and one that I feel falls more in the realm of faith than of science. Not that I consider the two to be mutually exclusive. However, since I have zero desire to engage in a faith vs. science debate with anyone, I'll just leave it at that.
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Khârn
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Posts: 12
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Post by Khârn on Nov 9, 2012 17:55:50 GMT
So... does Jones not have a soul? Having a soul and being alive seem like they could be very different things. She might well have a soul and not be alive. I very much doubt that Jones doesn't feel anything. She is alive if you simply discount metabolism and biological processes. And what is trolling but an attempt to provoke a reaction? An attempt to provoke a reaction defines any form of interaction with an animated being and/or object so calling this "trolling" pretty much makes "trolling" meaningless and you will stop using boldface and allcaps this instant or else AND NOW I GO BACK TO MY NORMAL SELF. See this is the point WHERE I QUESTION WHETHER YOU ARE JUST ACTING OFFENDED or are just joking. Either way, TRUST ME, IMMORTAL BEINGS ARE USUALLY JERKS. For instance I know this one guy, spends TEN THOUSAND YEARS ON A GIANT GOLDEN TOILET JUST BECAUSE HE IS IMMORTAL. Infallibility and immortality do not go hand in hand. MORE OFTEN IN MY EXPERIENCE they act like jerks because WHY NOT? I'VE LIVED FOR THOUSANDS/MILLIONS/BILLIONS OF YEARS and now I'm BORED AS A KLEPTOMANIAC AT A GIVE-AWAY.
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Post by philman on Nov 9, 2012 18:00:36 GMT
I am.. kind of crushed. Jones has been around for so long, and has seen humanity evolve so much, that she's just learned to go through the motions of having emotions and feelings for others. Her relationship with Eggers now has a bit of a downcast light on it. If she's never been alive, does she know feelings? Love? Can you feel those if you aren't "alive"? LAUGHING ON LINE at Tom's Blingee banner at the bottom. NICE AVIATORS. Looking back at the chapter now, I kind of get the idea she is seeking out human interaction so she can feel she belongs somewhere, or she has an identity. She has no idea who she is, or what she is, so becoming governess, friend, heir to Samuel gives her an identity, a purpose, a reason to be. Same as with Edward Jones in the bombed factory, she took his name as she does not have one herself, and it gave her a new person to be. And the same she is now doing with Egalmore.
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Post by lemarc on Nov 9, 2012 18:15:03 GMT
It doesn't prove anything, but it clarifies it in a way. Coyote claimed Jones was "the perfect example of what [he] was talking about", right after telling his story about the "disease" of human intellect. If we assume Coyote is telling the truth, then I think it's also safe to assume that Jones was retroactively given form by human imagination. Key word there: Assume "She proves coyote's story because he said she proves coyote's story" is circular logic. We still have zero reason to believe that she's a product of human imagination other than the word of a being that is fallible and considerably younger than Jones. The very first statement in my post: "It doesn't prove anything". Read before you patronise.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 9, 2012 18:19:57 GMT
So... does Jones not have a soul? If you mean an immortal soul, the Gunnerverse may not have such a thing. It's been formspring'd that everyone winds up in the same place eventually (though some may not enjoy the trip) and that is consistent with what Coyote says about there being an afterlife for some but everyone being released into the ether (eventually). The stories are absorbed and so create Coyote (and perhaps other beings) but if that is the case then people don't appear to have an independent existence. At best their memories and subjective beliefs and opinions survive, conflicting and canceling each other or in concert forming the majority of "reality" most likely, and certainly keeping rogue ether from the dead from causing too much trouble, thus ensuring the world keeps spinning. Mort may be the key in confirming or denying this at some point in the future; his having a "job" makes me think it will be confirmed. I am thinking he is reborn from those mixing memories and beliefs that are associated to a blob of etherial flow, a persona that is needed because of the beliefs about the etherial flow. So Jones may indeed be "soul-less" and one who's memories and unique perspective are in danger of being lost if she is destroyed. The same goes for the robots, I suppose, until Kat gets her @$$ in gear and becomes their goddess or whatnot. But even if Jones does have a human-like soul she probably doesn't have a 'Pomp and would require help to reach the ether.
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 9, 2012 18:22:40 GMT
Coyote probably knows what she is.(1) -- Annie still needs to "ask about the stars in the night sky!"(2) 1. Perhaps... that I would like to know. 2. This is what I immediately thought about as well. There is an answer we have not ogt yet and we are promised to and that will explain something to us, for cookie's sake!!
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Triple Sharp
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Post by Triple Sharp on Nov 9, 2012 18:45:23 GMT
So... does Jones not have a soul? If you mean an immortal soul, the Gunnerverse may not have such a thing. It's been formspring'd that everyone winds up in the same place eventually (though some may not enjoy the trip) and that is consistent with what Coyote says about there being an afterlife for some but everyone being released into the ether (eventually). The stories are absorbed and so create Coyote (and perhaps other beings) but if that is the case then people don't appear to have an independent existence. At best their memories and subjective beliefs and opinions survive, conflicting and canceling each other or in concert forming the majority of "reality" most likely, and certainly keeping rogue ether from the dead from causing too much trouble, thus ensuring the world keeps spinning. Mort may be the key in confirming or denying this at some point in the future; his having a "job" makes me think it will be confirmed. I am thinking he is reborn from those mixing memories and beliefs that are associated to a blob of etherial flow, a persona that is needed because of the beliefs about the etherial flow. So Jones may indeed be "soul-less" and one who's memories and unique perspective are in danger of being lost if she is destroyed. The same goes for the robots, I suppose, until Kat gets her @$$ in gear and becomes their goddess or whatnot. But even if Jones does have a human-like soul she probably doesn't have a 'Pomp and would require help to reach the ether. Oh right, I was thinking of it as a more real-life question. I suppose it would be interesting to know if she would have a spirit guide, enter the ether, et cetera. Of course, a prerequisite for this would be her dying. She might, perhaps, live as long as the earth does (the earth will eventually die/be destroyed). Although, theoretically, she could be utterly indestructible. In any case, I'm rather digressing here...
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 9, 2012 19:07:37 GMT
See this is the point WHERE I QUESTION WHETHER YOU ARE JUST ACTING OFFENDED or are just joking. I have been here for almost three years and I still can't tell.
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ryos
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Post by ryos on Nov 9, 2012 20:17:48 GMT
I am.. kind of crushed. Jones has been around for so long, and has seen humanity evolve so much, that she's just learned to go through the motions of having emotions and feelings for others. Her relationship with Eggers now has a bit of a downcast light on it. If she's never been alive, does she know feelings? Love? Can you feel those if you aren't "alive"? LAUGHING ON LINE at Tom's Blingee banner at the bottom. NICE AVIATORS. Looking back at the chapter now, I kind of get the idea she is seeking out human interaction so she can feel she belongs somewhere, or she has an identity. She has no idea who she is, or what she is, so becoming governess, friend, heir to Samuel gives her an identity, a purpose, a reason to be. Same as with Edward Jones in the bombed factory, she took his name as she does not have one herself, and it gave her a new person to be. And the same she is now doing with Egalmore. We're all looking at her as though she thinks like a human. She looks it, after all. But she isn't. I can't imagine any human being able to survive 4 billion years of complete solitude without going completely off their gourd. Compared to that, all of human history is a rounding error. Why does she put up with humans? Why does she help them, cherish them? Why does she take their names? Based on everything we've seen from her up to this point, I'd guess: because she finds us interesting. I can see in her no other motivation. But she was here long before us, and she must realize that we too will pass, as she watched so many other species do before us. She must realize that even the sun will pass, and before it does, it will swallow the earth. Swimming in a plasma sea might interest her for a time, but how much more interesting would it be to head for other stars? Maybe she's ultimately angling for interstellar space travel, and sees the court as the most likely to produce that ability. Hah. Ask her about the stars in the sky indeed.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Nov 9, 2012 21:11:35 GMT
But why does she take other people's names? And why did Coyote say she steals them? He must know what she is. You had to pay attention to the rest of the chapter. Jones had to take on different identities through the years. She took on that aristocrat's name when she became his "daughter" and she took on her friend's name when he died.
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Gauldoth Half-Dead
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Post by Gauldoth Half-Dead on Nov 9, 2012 21:27:38 GMT
NAILED IT -Not even Jones knows what Jones is, but it thinks it's people. Now ask her about the night stars. :3 Somehow I get the feeling that Jones will stop being stoic once she finds out what she is. Because we will find out at one point. Right guys? ...Guys?
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