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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 4, 2011 2:37:12 GMT
Did Surma tell Anthony this would happen? Did Surma choose Anthony - out of an apparent bevy of suitors - because she thought he could help her with this "condition"? ...one was kiiinda asked (and answered exactly as expected): "If everyone, including Anthony, knew about what would happen if Surma had a child...why did Anthony father Annie? Remains to be seen" My guess is that Anthony did know about the "rules" but figured he could find a way around them with technology. It's been said he didn't have much patience with things etheric; maybe he didn't have much respect for them either. It's an interesting theory, particularly with the name coincidences. But even if this goddess triad rules over death, I don't see how there is a connection with the rebirth cycle that Surma went through either. See, there never was a crone involved, and if Annie has a child also, she will be in the mother stage herself. Surma was not old when she died. Not old at all. The triad can't be completed in this way (with only two), you see what I mean? Because a third will never be there. Surma doesn't represent the entire maiden-mother-crone cycle. She only represents one aspect of it; when she went from maiden to mother she began dying as the fire passed on to a new maiden. That's a method of eternal youth and eternal life in a sense, but with an ever-changing nature. And yes, the theory does suggest that Antimony may have two counterparts who haven't appeared in the comic so far, ones that do not suffer from the same fate. ;D
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Post by mistysoul on Jan 4, 2011 2:49:02 GMT
Did Surma tell Anthony this would happen? Did Surma choose Anthony - out of an apparent bevy of suitors - because she thought he could help her with this "condition"? ...one was kiiinda asked (and answered exactly as expected): "If everyone, including Anthony, knew about what would happen if Surma had a child...why did Anthony father Annie? Remains to be seen" My guess is that Anthony did know about the "rules" but figured he could find a way around them with technology. It's been said he didn't have much patience with things etheric; maybe he didn't have much respect for them either. It's an interesting theory, particularly with the name coincidences. But even if this goddess triad rules over death, I don't see how there is a connection with the rebirth cycle that Surma went through either. See, there never was a crone involved, and if Annie has a child also, she will be in the mother stage herself. Surma was not old when she died. Not old at all. The triad can't be completed in this way (with only two), you see what I mean? Because a third will never be there. Surma doesn't represent the entire maiden-mother-crone cycle. She only represents one aspect of it; when she went from maiden to mother she began dying as the fire passed on to a new maiden. That's a method of eternal youth and eternal life in a sense, but with an ever-changing nature. And yes, the theory does suggest that Antimony may have two counterparts who haven't appeared in the comic so far, ones that do not suffer from the same fate. ;D I wasn't suggesting that Surma represented all three of this triad, only that this theory doesn't make sense due to there being no third member of a triad. As for the rest of your theory, about there being two other Annies who don't/won't suffer the same fate as Antimony: WTF.
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mariposa
Full Member
Hi, I'm Elise!
Posts: 149
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Post by mariposa on Jan 4, 2011 3:08:29 GMT
Could one of them be Kat/Anja? (Given her mother's obvious magical ability, I've been hoping for a while for Kat to manifest some supernatural powers of her own. Mostly because it would blow her mind. )
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Post by q3 on Jan 4, 2011 3:24:10 GMT
And on this day, Annie decided to switch teams. *snort* Maybe one day, Kat finds a solution for it though. *snort* Wait, you mean a technological solution. ... *snort*
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 4, 2011 3:58:28 GMT
I wasn't suggesting that Surma represented all three of this triad, only that this theory doesn't make sense due to there being no third member of a triad. As for the rest of your theory, about there being two other Annies who don't/won't suffer the same fate as Antimony: WTF. Not sure if I need to clarify this or not but the theory only fits if Surma and Antimony represent the Maiden and only the Maiden. When they become a Mother they cease to exist as such, though there's apparently a (12-13 year?) grace period before they actually die. And if they're out there somewhere, I suspect the Maiden's counterparts are little/nothing like Antimony. Could one of them be Kat/Anja? (Given her mother's obvious magical ability, I've been hoping for a while for Kat to manifest some supernatural powers of her own. Mostly because it would blow her mind. ) I don't think there is any character yet in the comic who fits the bill for either the Mother or the Crone aspect. Jones comes closest but you'd think that if she shared such a profound bond with Antimony that Antimony would sense it at least a little, and Surma and Jones would've gotten on better. [edit] Then again sometimes mothers and daughters just don't get along after a while. I still think Jones is Galatea, though. [/edit]
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Post by fronzel on Jan 4, 2011 8:02:00 GMT
And on this day, Annie decided to switch teams. What do you mean, "switch"?
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Post by 0o0f on Jan 4, 2011 11:09:16 GMT
*snort* Wait, you mean a technological solution. ... *snort* Eh, I don't know. I was just in a silly mood after reading a lot of wild speculations. Anywya, I wonder if there are more people like Annie around.
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Post by gumbamasta on Jan 4, 2011 11:22:17 GMT
*snort* Wait, you mean a technological solution. ... *snort* Eh, I don't know. I was just in a silly mood after reading a lot of wild speculations. Anywya, I wonder if there are more people like Annie around. Eh, that can happen when the storyline drags the mood down to the pits of hell.
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 4, 2011 15:19:31 GMT
[Idea inspired by R.A. Lafferty's "900 Grandmothers".] Dune had something very close earlier. Though not earlier than Dalai Lama, of course. It does remind me an awful lot of the youngest member of a goddess triad, the vernal aspect. Tom obviously picks the sources everywhere and is great at making good of them, but... Is it possible at all to build anyhing interesting upon neopaganism (save a nugget or two of comedy gold a-la Pratchett)? I mean, if the fan remake of Induism is as bland as a cardboard - and it had the single most colorific mythology ever to choose from - does a patchwork of "not Crowley at all" and such look like a first rate mental fertilizer? I like to imagine she's wondering what to eat for dinner or something amid all the emotional revelations. Wait, she eats? Oh damn, things just got really rough for Annie. She already had issues with the romantic stuff Maybe it's a part of the same? That is, they're not enthusiastic about it, but are hit really hard when the time comes? Maybe Surma's mom explained it to her too early and traumatized her, so she kept putting off telling Annie about it until it was too late. Imagining how Surma shrouded in flames and levitating over a couch rambles this in a complaining "they-don't-want-to-play-with-me" tone to a professional freudist was fun... Now, could anyone please tell how to remove this picture without using Brain Bleach TM? Annie's next meeting with Jack is going to be waaaay more awkward. (I didn't even think that was possible.) Given a ton of her other problems? Or, she may remember how Jack can get along with Kat (when sane) and decide to distract him and make at least someone happy at once. Add Gamma's opinion that he may still understand "something" even when not in mad scientist mode...
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Post by mistysoul on Jan 4, 2011 17:39:19 GMT
I wasn't suggesting that Surma represented all three of this triad, only that this theory doesn't make sense due to there being no third member of a triad. As for the rest of your theory, about there being two other Annies who don't/won't suffer the same fate as Antimony: WTF. Not sure if I need to clarify this or not but the theory only fits if Surma and Antimony represent the Maiden and only the Maiden. When they become a Mother they cease to exist as such, though there's apparently a (12-13 year?) grace period before they actually die. And if they're out there somewhere, I suspect the Maiden's counterparts are little/nothing like Antimony. Could one of them be Kat/Anja? (Given her mother's obvious magical ability, I've been hoping for a while for Kat to manifest some supernatural powers of her own. Mostly because it would blow her mind. ) I don't think there is any character yet in the comic who fits the bill for either the Mother or the Crone aspect. Jones comes closest but you'd think that if she shared such a profound bond with Antimony that Antimony would sense it at least a little, and Surma and Jones would've gotten on better. [edit] Then again sometimes mothers and daughters just don't get along after a while. I still think Jones is Galatea, though. [/edit] Ok now I understand what you're getting at. Maybe. But I'm still not so sure about it. There just doesn't seem to be enough evidence to support this. For example, where in the comic are the other two goddesses of the triad if Annie is one of them? Should there not have been some kind of foreshadowing that there are two more people who relate to Antimony in this way? The comic is filled with duos (Annie and Kat, Zimmy and Gamma, etc.), but I have yet to see a close trio that I can remember. I think there's much more evidence for the phoenix theory, especially after yesterday's page. Coyote referred to Annie's "kind". Is that how you would address a goddess? Because in a case like that, I would say " your legacy" or "your fate". The "your kind" line implies that there are more people (or magestic etheric creatures) like Antimony, when there is only one goddess called Gentle Annie.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 4, 2011 18:42:11 GMT
Not sure if I need to clarify this or not but the theory only fits if Surma and Antimony represent the Maiden and only the Maiden. When they become a Mother they cease to exist as such, though there's apparently a (12-13 year?) grace period before they actually die. And if they're out there somewhere, I suspect the Maiden's counterparts are little/nothing like Antimony. I don't think there is any character yet in the comic who fits the bill for either the Mother or the Crone aspect. Jones comes closest but you'd think that if she shared such a profound bond with Antimony that Antimony would sense it at least a little, and Surma and Jones would've gotten on better. [edit] Then again sometimes mothers and daughters just don't get along after a while. I still think Jones is Galatea, though. [/edit] Ok now I understand what you're getting at. Maybe. But I'm still not so sure about it. There just doesn't seem to be enough evidence to support this. For example, where in the comic are the other two goddesses of the triad if Annie is one of them? Should there not have been some kind of foreshadowing that there are two more people who relate to Antimony in this way? The comic is filled with duos (Annie and Kat, Zimmy and Gamma, etc.), but I have yet to see a close trio that I can remember. I think there's much more evidence for the phoenix theory, especially after yesterday's page. Coyote referred to Annie's "kind". Is that how you would address a goddess? Because in a case like that, I would say " your legacy" or "your fate". The "your kind" line implies that there are more people (or magestic etheric creatures) like Antimony, when there is only one goddess called Gentle Annie. Unfortunately, that bit about Coyote saying your kind may also be evidence against the phoenix theory, as in most legends there is only ever one phoenix at a time (i,e. it is a single entity, not a species as such).
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Post by fronzel on Jan 4, 2011 19:06:49 GMT
Isn't it kind of strange that we get this revelation about what child-bearing did to Surma and can or will do to Annie when before that info-providing part started in this same chapter we have Annie interacting with a boy who likes her...and Annie's reaction is apathy and/or rejection.
If Annie had a boy she liked (as Renard likes to ask about) there would be ominous implications (regardless of the fact that she, at her age, would hardly be thinking about having a child), but her total lack of interest in a boy seems to give her some comfort room on this.
Unless a male isn't required for this process to happen, like Surma and Annie's "kind" spontaneously generate a "replacement" at some point in time.
This would crash the current popular theory on why James and Surma broke up and call into question Anthony's role in all this. Maybe all that was just mundane romantic goings-on?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 4, 2011 19:14:49 GMT
Is it possible at all to build anyhing interesting upon neopaganism (save a nugget or two of comedy gold a-la Pratchett)? I mean, if the fan remake of Induism is as bland as a cardboard - and it had the single most colorific mythology ever to choose from - does a patchwork of "not Crowley at all" and such look like a first rate mental fertilizer? I'm unsure I get your meaning. I'm not familiar with the details of pop Hinduism and I've only read a few Pratchetts but if you're suggesting that the Antimony=Vernal Aspect theory is built only on 19th-20th century neo-pagan redux and McDonaldization of older myths then I reject your critique. Triad goddesses have been around a long time. Ok now I understand what you're getting at. Maybe. But I'm still not so sure about it. There just doesn't seem to be enough evidence to support this. Well, there is this depiction of Antimony wearing a triple crown or possibly with a three-pointed corona. That looks like vines on Antimony's arm in the preview of the 4th treatise too, and that might be a sign of spring. I think there's much more evidence for the phoenix theory, especially after yesterday's page. Coyote referred to Annie's "kind". Is that how you would address a goddess? Because in a case like that, I would say " your legacy" or "your fate". The "your kind" line implies that there are more people (or magestic etheric creatures) like Antimony, when there is only one goddess called Gentle Annie. Coyote is also a god. And technically there would only be one Maiden goddess even though there have been many of Antimony's "kind" if the theory is correct. Also, the evidence for the phoenix theory you mention consists of "the fire" the women carry and a birth/death process that bears little/no resemblance to the traditional immolation-in-old-age that phoenixes are said to have. Proponents of the phoenix theory have suggested that difference can be accounted for because these women are actually descendents of a phoenix converted to humanity and the bloodline has become mixed. I suppose they get around the problem of the fixed number of centuries that phoenixes should live by substituting the birth of the next generation for the passage of time. This begs the question of why the women still have to die after having a daughter if the bloodline is so mixed that the regeneration process is unrecognizable. There is a long list of mythic characters through history who have some association with fire and some type of immortality or regeneration or perpetual youth. The same arguments for the phoenix theory can also be used with equal strength to suggest that Antimony is descended from Prometheus, Coatlicue, or any number of other gods/goddesses, witches, priestesses, saints or lesser figures. Also, since when have phoenixes have had the role of guiding the dead and being mediums? That aside, I admit I do not know if my theory is correct or not. It's just a theory. However I think it is a nifty theory and if it lasts out this chapter I think it has a good chance of going the distance [by which I mean that it will remain a possibility until we find out what the truth is, not that it must be true if it survives this chapter]. I encourage people to look into the old triad-goddess myths and make up their own minds. Though here I have to say that tbeholder has a point if he is suggesting people avoid half-baked pop culture neo-pagan sites and look for more scholarly ones.
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Post by mistysoul on Jan 4, 2011 21:32:23 GMT
Is it possible at all to build anyhing interesting upon neopaganism (save a nugget or two of comedy gold a-la Pratchett)? I mean, if the fan remake of Induism is as bland as a cardboard - and it had the single most colorific mythology ever to choose from - does a patchwork of "not Crowley at all" and such look like a first rate mental fertilizer? I'm unsure I get your meaning. I'm not familiar with the details of pop Hinduism and I've only read a few Pratchetts but if you're suggesting that the Antimony=Vernal Aspect theory is built only on 19th-20th century neo-pagan redux and McDonaldization of older myths then I reject your critique. Triad goddesses have been around a long time. Well, there is this depiction of Antimony wearing a triple crown or possibly with a three-pointed corona. That looks like vines on Antimony's arm in the preview of the 4th treatise too, and that might be a sign of spring. I think there's much more evidence for the phoenix theory, especially after yesterday's page. Coyote referred to Annie's "kind". Is that how you would address a goddess? Because in a case like that, I would say " your legacy" or "your fate". The "your kind" line implies that there are more people (or majestic etheric creatures) like Antimony, when there is only one goddess called Gentle Annie. Coyote is also a god. And technically there would only be one Maiden goddess even though there have been many of Antimony's "kind" if the theory is correct. Also, the evidence for the phoenix theory you mention consists of "the fire" the women carry and a birth/death process that bears little/no resemblance to the traditional immolation-in-old-age that phoenixes are said to have. Proponents of the phoenix theory have suggested that difference can be accounted for because these women are actually descendants of a phoenix converted to humanity and the bloodline has become mixed. I suppose they get around the problem of the fixed number of centuries that phoenixes should live by substituting the birth of the next generation for the passage of time. This begs the question of why the women still have to die after having a daughter if the bloodline is so mixed that the regeneration process is unrecognizable. There is a long list of mythic characters through history who have some association with fire and some type of immortality or regeneration or perpetual youth. The same arguments for the phoenix theory can also be used with equal strength to suggest that Antimony is descended from Prometheus, Coatlicue, or any number of other gods/goddesses, witches, priestesses, saints or lesser figures. Also, since when have phoenixes have had the role of guiding the dead and being mediums? That aside, I admit I do not know if my theory is correct or not. It's just a theory. However I think it is a nifty theory and if it lasts out this chapter I think it has a good chance of going the distance [by which I mean that it will remain a possibility until we find out what the truth is, not that it must be true if it survives this chapter]. I encourage people to look into the old triad-goddess myths and make up their own minds. Though here I have to say that tbeholder has a point if he is suggesting people avoid half-baked pop culture neo-pagan sites and look for more scholarly ones. My thoughts about the triple crown: Phoenixes are often depicted with a crown of golden feathers on their heads. This is a sign of their sacredness, but sometimes it is symbolic of their fire-rebirth. My thoughts about the rebirth cycle: Despite human bodies being involved, the etheric fire must still be transferred to the offspring. It can't go out and it can't be made smaller because it is a divine flame. This is why the exact same rebirth process must continue for generations despite human blood tainting that of the original phoenix. The reason the mother dies after the exchange is complete is because that etheric fire is what her life force is powered by. Consider this: A strong new phoenix rises out of the ashes of the old one. But a new human grows slowly and takes many years to be fully grown. The fire can't be transferred all at once to a baby with such a tiny little life force, so it is instead leeched slowly away (going as it is needed by the child). The reason the psychopomps didn't take Surma is because her soul was transferred completely to Antimony. Just as the phoenix who dies is reborn. My thoughts about the phoenix evidence: No, these arguments could not be used to suggest that Antimony is descended from Prometheus or Coatlicue, and it could not be used to support just any similar argument. First of all, Prometheus is a male figure. And Tom has already answered on formspring about how it is a given that if Surma had a child it would have to be female. Besides, Prometheus does not have any relation to fire, a rebirth cycle that follows down a long generational line, or anything of the sort whatsoever. The same goes for Coatlicue. In fact, she is known (among other things) as the goddess of women who die in child birth. Surma did not die in child birth, she died much later when the last of her life force had been drained away. I will post my entire log of evidence for this theory later. I have been tracking it for awhile now. My thoughts about Surma and Annie's ability to see the psychopomps and interact with the dead: A phoenix is a creature of the ether, yes? A powerful one at that, in the same league with a kirin or dragon. This alone could explain the ability to see the psychopomps. The suicide fairies could see Mutt just fine after all. Mort has no problem seeing and communicating with psychopomps either, but his circumstances as a dead human may not make him count exactly. Anyway, all the stories say that a phoenix is a just, pure hearted being. This could make one a candidate for serving as a judge for the dead, and there are several stories about phoenixes being sacred to even the gods. Despite being tainted with human blood, one descended from a phoenix may very well bear a diplomatic nature that even psychopomps will trust. Also.................................. Tom likes birds.
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Post by Per on Jan 4, 2011 22:07:54 GMT
There's a thread for wild theories, isn't there?
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Kuraimizu
Full Member
Master Librarian
Posts: 177
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Post by Kuraimizu on Jan 4, 2011 22:25:05 GMT
Seems to be a sad day for Annie and her secrets
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Post by kelseyg on Jan 4, 2011 22:40:23 GMT
Coyote seems threatening here. Yes, he's laughing, but there's a hint of malice that appeared when Annie told him about her mother's trick. I'm thinking he didn't know as much as he said.
Annie's finding out what it's like to be the butt of Coyote's humor, apparently. Maybe it'll strengthen her friendship with Ysengrin.
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Post by todd on Jan 4, 2011 23:16:36 GMT
Isn't it kind of strange that we get this revelation about what child-bearing did to Surma and can or will do to Annie when before that info-providing part started in this same chapter we have Annie interacting with a boy who likes her...and Annie's reaction is apathy and/or rejection. We don't know for certain how apathetic she is. I'll admit that I'd always assumed (until this chapter began) that Annie was simply uninterested in such things - and would probably always be - but the scene between her and Jack could be read as Annie having feelings for him, and not sure how to handle them, as well as of her having no romantic or hormonal stirrings. We don't know yet which it is.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 5, 2011 1:32:00 GMT
My thoughts about the triple crown: Phoenixes are often depicted with a crown of golden feathers on their heads. This is a sign of their sacredness, but sometimes it is symbolic of their fire-rebirth. Okay, but then why didn't she have wings or other bird-like attributes when we saw her in the ether? Phoenixes are always depicted with wings. Despite human bodies being involved, the etheric fire must still be transferred to the offspring. It can't go out and it can't be made smaller because it is a divine flame. This is why the exact same rebirth process must continue for generations despite human blood tainting that of the original phoenix. The reason the mother dies after the exchange is complete is because that etheric fire is what her life force is powered by. Consider this: A strong new phoenix rises out of the ashes of the old one. But a new human grows slowly and takes many years to be fully grown. The fire can't be transferred all at once to a baby with such a tiny little life force, so it is instead leeched slowly away (going as it is needed by the child). The reason the psychopomps didn't take Surma is because her soul was transferred completely to Antimony. Just as the phoenix who dies is reborn. I don't disagree the basic idea of the slow transfer but anything with an immortal or eternally youthful nature and a vague connection to fire could be forced to fit. There's nothing uniquely phoenix in what appears in the comic. On the other hand the vernal-aspect theory doesn't require any shoehorning to make it work; that Surma died around the same time Antimony would be hitting puberty fits well, as she's going from childhood to Maidenhood. With the phoenix theory you're left wondering why Surma died around then, before Antimony was fully mature and using her powers or conversely why Surma didn't die earlier as she could've transferred the fire within those dozen years even with the difference in rate of maturation. First of all, Prometheus is a male figure. And Tom has already answered on formspring about how it is a given that if Surma had a child it would have to be female. Besides, Prometheus does not have any relation to fire, a rebirth cycle that follows down a long generational line, or anything of the sort whatsoever. Your point about Prometheus being male is on-target but he is from a line of immortals and he absolutely did have a connection to fire. He could've fathered a line through Pandora, who was sent in response to his transgression and created specially to possess all feminine gifts. That might mean that her offspring are required to be female because the divine gifts are restricted to one lady-type recipient? And those gifts should include sagacity and goodness and levelheadedness that would make her a good medium and a judge/guide for the dead too, yes? And according to the argument you made later in your post being etheric and wise would be sufficient to account for seeing psychopomps and being a medium. The same goes for Coatlicue. In fact, she is known (among other things) as the goddess of women who die in child birth. Surma did not die in child birth, she died much later when the last of her life force had been drained away. I will post my entire log of evidence for this theory later. I have been tracking it for awhile now. I will await your full reply before posting anything else about Coatlicue. Truthfully, I just threw out her and Prometheus as examples. My thoughts about Surma and Annie's ability to see the psychopomps and interact with the dead: A phoenix is a creature of the ether, yes? A powerful one at that, in the same league with a kirin or dragon. This alone could explain the ability to see the psychopomps... Anyway, all the stories say that a phoenix is a just, pure hearted being. This could make one a candidate for serving as a judge for the dead, and there are several stories about phoenixes being sacred to even the gods. Despite being tainted with human blood, one descended from a phoenix may very well bear a diplomatic nature that even psychopomps will trust. What I said earlier. Also: Then how do we know Antimony isn't descended of a kirin or a dragon? Some are said to be immortal and in some stories they have fire. Also.................................. Tom likes birds. Can't argue with that but as for the rest I think we'll have to agree to disagree... ...Or say, It Remains To Be Seen.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 5, 2011 1:54:21 GMT
There's a thread for wild theories, isn't there? I posted my theory there first but it was criticized for not being wild enough. Perhaps we need a new thread for sort-of wild spec? ;D
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Post by fronzel on Jan 5, 2011 2:03:18 GMT
Isn't it kind of strange that we get this revelation about what child-bearing did to Surma and can or will do to Annie when before that info-providing part started in this same chapter we have Annie interacting with a boy who likes her...and Annie's reaction is apathy and/or rejection. We don't know for certain how apathetic she is. I'll admit that I'd always assumed (until this chapter began) that Annie was simply uninterested in such things - and would probably always be - but the scene between her and Jack could be read as Annie having feelings for him, and not sure how to handle them, as well as of her having no romantic or hormonal stirrings. We don't know yet which it is. You think so? She seems really cold to me, like she doesn't want to be there at all but doesn't want to be rude enough to directly snub him. She says very little; besides short, blunt answers to his questions, the only things she says are "How are you feeling?" and "do you have any plans?", both which could easily be shallow social niceties. Her face is a total blank the entire time except when he tries to kiss her when it registers surprise. I think most telling are her parting words "I'll see you next year, perhaps", which is a totally indifferent statement. She's not expressing a desire to see him next year. Also, she looks pretty cheesed off afterward. If she was thinking about her mom and Renard I don't see why she should be more angry now than she was after speaking to Anja. Not to mention I don't know why she'd like him. Far as I can tell she regrets not trying to help him sooner when he clearly had some kind of problem stemming from Zimmy and that's it.
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Post by mistysoul on Jan 5, 2011 2:34:36 GMT
My thoughts about the triple crown: Phoenixes are often depicted with a crown of golden feathers on their heads. This is a sign of their sacredness, but sometimes it is symbolic of their fire-rebirth. Okay, but then why didn't she have wings or other bird-like attributes when we saw her in the ether? Phoenixes are always depicted with wings. I don't disagree the basic idea of the slow transfer but anything with an immortal or eternally youthful nature and a vague connection to fire could be forced to fit. There's nothing uniquely phoenix in what appears in the comic. On the other hand the vernal-aspect theory doesn't require any shoehorning to make it work; that Surma died around the same time Antimony would be hitting puberty fits well, as she's going from childhood to Maidenhood. With the phoenix theory you're left wondering why Surma died around then, before Antimony was fully mature and using her powers or conversely why Surma didn't die earlier as she could've transferred the fire within those dozen years even with the difference in rate of maturation. Your point about Prometheus being male is on-target but he is from a line of immortals and he absolutely did have a connection to fire. He could've fathered a line through Pandora, who was sent in response to his transgression and created specially to possess all feminine gifts. That might mean that her offspring are required to be female because the divine gifts are restricted to one lady-type recipient? And those gifts should include sagacity and goodness and levelheadedness that would make her a good medium and a judge/guide for the dead too, yes? And according to the argument you made later in your post being etheric and wise would be sufficient to account for seeing psychopomps and being a medium. I will await your full reply before posting anything else about Coatlicue. Truthfully, I just threw out her and Prometheus as examples. What I said earlier. Also: Then how do we know Antimony isn't descended of a kirin or a dragon? Some are said to be immortal and in some stories they have fire. Also.................................. Tom likes birds. Can't argue with that but as for the rest I think we'll have to agree to disagree... ...Or say, It Remains To Be Seen. ...Wow. Just wow. Annie is mostly human, which is why she looks mostly human in the ether. The crown is symbolic and does not even normally show up in the ether. No, if someone knew what they were talking about they would not be able to argue any fire/death related mythological creature or being in place of a phoenix with the points I have just stated. This is due to the fact that a phoenix is the only mentioned mythological being thus far that is known specifically for being reborn for generations into a new self. These other gods and goddesses may or may not have started a generational line. None of these other creatures are cursed to die once they have given rise to a child. You can't argue dragon or kirin because once they have children, they can freely live on. This makes a phoenix blood line the only possible solution for Coyote's words, "The flame that burned inside her was passed on to you." So what if Prometheus is known for giving men fire? So what if there are creatures like the dragon who are known for breathing fire? The phoenix is the only one whose very soul is made from fire. It is much closer to the element of fire than even the triad-goddesses involved in your theory. And if it's one thing we know up to this point, fire is very important to what Annie really is.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 5, 2011 6:36:36 GMT
Just found something interesting guys. The Egyptian version of the phoenix, known as a Bennu is found in the Egyptian book of the dead, stating I am the Bennu which is in Anu, and I am the keeper of the volume of the book of things which are and of things which shall be. found here. Edit: Link should work now.
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Post by Eversist on Jan 5, 2011 6:56:19 GMT
Link won't work, Reason. :<
I think the phoenix theory, since it has yet to be debunked by Tom/the comic, is most plausible... but Tom has a habit of straying from the obvious. Although, at this point in time, I'd be hard-pressed to find another theory that fits so well... unless it's something completely fabricated from Tom's mind. I wouldn't put that past him.
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Post by moonlitshadow on Jan 5, 2011 7:58:44 GMT
Well, I'm officially in the Phoenix camp now. Lets see if tomorrows update sheds anymore light on this. *Waits for midnight*.
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 5, 2011 16:44:52 GMT
I'm unsure I get your meaning. I'm not familiar with the details of pop Hinduism It's where the triad of Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas is replaced with Creation, Keeping and Destruction. and I've only read a few Pratchetts but if you're suggesting that the Antimony=Vernal Aspect theory is built only on 19th-20th century neo-pagan redux and McDonaldization of older myths then I reject your critique. Triad goddesses have been around a long time. Sure, but how much of "Three Goddesses" and how much of generic "principle of three" which soaks everything up to fairy tales?.. Also, the evidence for the phoenix theory you mention consists of "the fire" the women carry and a birth/death process that bears little/no resemblance to the traditional immolation-in-old-age that phoenixes are said to have. It depends. IIRC, there was not only "from the ashes", but also a variant where the phoenix lays an egg, then turns into a pyre in which the egg is hatched. Which would be a direct hit. Too direct, maybe. Annie is mostly human, which is why she looks mostly human in the ether. The crown is symbolic and does not even normally show up in the ether. ...and is three-pronged because it's the minimal shape still recognizable as a crown. You can't argue dragon or kirin because once they have children, they can freely live on. This makes a phoenix blood line the only possible solution for Coyote's words, "The flame that burned inside her was passed on to you." As long as we assume this part is essential and not a side-effect of the mixed blood's magic.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 5, 2011 21:15:24 GMT
Sure, but how much of "Three Goddesses" and how much of generic "principle of three" which soaks everything up to fairy tales?.. If you're suggesting that the interpretation and reinterpretation of the ancient myths can suffer from modern intellectual prejudice, then I can get behind that. On the other hand I don't think you can dismiss the triple deity maiden-mother-crone concept as simply a modern pop culture invention, a neat scholastic overlay or a mere Jungian archetype. Was this a formal concept across cultures in antiquity? Rarely if so but maybe. Were some goddesses associated with the earlier stage of a girl's life, others with marriage and wifely duties, and still others with a woman in her old age? Inarguably.*** Was there a blurring across these categories? Sometimes. Was there combination and confusion within these categories? Absolutely, and particularly so where there was cultural borrowing and that does lend itself to this line of speculation. ***[editing: for clarification] The goddesses who had aspects associated with various phases of a woman's life, where some or all of those aspects also had their own names would be included here. [/edit] But say for sake of argument we chuck the concept entirely. That just means the three-pointed crown cannot be a representation of such a triad. It then becomes a generic representation of divinity or perhaps a link to royalty in a human order or maybe of fire (the last of which we already knew was involved). That doesn't argue against the focus of the birth/death cycle on early womanhood. So in that case, not a Maiden goddess but a goddess of maidens? Since tossing the triad doesn't argue against the existence of any other goddesses we have a potato-potatoe situation. It depends. IIRC, there was not only "from the ashes", but also a variant where the phoenix lays an egg, then turns into a pyre in which the egg is hatched. Which would be a direct hit. Too direct, maybe. Perhaps; there's also more gruesome versions where the baby bird or larval phoenix feasts on the decaying carcass of its predecessor. But if it's the case that Antimony consumed Surma just like in the phoenix myth, which is not exactly what Renard said, then I think we have to believe that Antimony didn't take Surma by the hand and guide her to the afterlife like it appears. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to believe Antimony ate whatever was left of her mother?
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nomi
New Member
Fluffy Bunny is coming for your SOUL
Posts: 2
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Post by nomi on Jan 5, 2011 22:43:38 GMT
Tom's just playing with us now. EDIT: I find it interesting that Jones isn't intervening. She doesn't seem to have reacted at all. (Neither has Ysengrin, but I assumed he was just listening) Tom's been playing with us the entire series
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Post by goldenknots on Jan 6, 2011 4:58:49 GMT
It just occurred to me that when she went to help Martin in Chapter 16: A Ghost Story, she had to leave her mother's side. That doesn't quite match up with "couldn't bear to be apart", does it?
Loren
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Post by warrl on Jan 6, 2011 5:03:37 GMT
Horrible thought 3: Annie will probably resist this. But what if part of this gift forces Annie to mate with someone (to continue the bloodline?). What if it was forced on Surma? Describe the phoenix's mate. I wasn't suggesting that Surma represented all three of this triad, only that this theory doesn't make sense due to there being no third member of a triad. Antimony, Anja, and Jones. I'm less than 100% certain about Anja though. Also, in Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series a number of mythic figures (the first book, On a Pale Horse, stars Death) are actually jobs which are filled by a succession of mortals - the term of office, and process of succession, varying from one case to another. Anthony has the triad Goddess in there in its Greek form, the three Fates, with the Maiden/Mother/Crone aspect which I don't think is present in the Greek form; each of the three roles has its own succession.
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