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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 3, 2011 8:55:30 GMT
I know this is going to sound awful, but what if Renard is testing the waters to skate his own claim. He failed with Surma, but now Annie is here. That would be incredibly wrong for Rey on some many levels. He already knows that Surma's gift is passed from mother-to-child at the cost of the mother, and the he goes around to "claim" Annie? Not to mention how creepy the whole "use the child of an old love interest as a replacement love interest" is in principle. Due to comments made about the post, I have decided to delete it. I apologise to anyone who was offended by it. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Just trying to give..uh..not sure now, but I have realised it probably was in poor taste.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 3, 2011 8:59:23 GMT
It's been Formspring'd that Surma would have lived until she was very old if she hadn't had a child. It's also been said that having a child was neither an accident nor against Surma's will. I don't know why, but this made me wonder if, should Annie try to put off having a child for as long as possible, she might be effectively immortal. If you read them carefully you may notice that the aforementioned Formspring answers don't say if Surma would age naturally, just that she could live until she was very old. I'd like to think Reys love for Annie is more of a fatherly one. So far he's been more supportive and protective of Annie then her real father anyway Two thoughts: Renard's fatherly attitude toward Antimony may be partly caused by the body he's in. If the body is the plaything of the mind then it may color his attitude in a more protective-of-child sort of way than it would be otherwise. Also, Antimony is his jailer. He is completely under her control despite being much older than she is. Becoming like a father may be his way of regaining some control over the situation if she sees him as such, or of fooling himself into thinking his situation has improved if she rejects him (circumstances of the last fight may argue for the latter alternative). Not Horrible but kinda Humorous thought 1: This might be the closest thing Annie gets to the "birds and the bees" talk. I was thinking that myself. My first reaction was that this could be a heck of a rhetorical hammer for a father to give the old abstinence lecture... ...but then it occurred to me, Anthony is relying on someone else to fill in for him in this area when it is more important than usual (and for a usual girl it is still very important).
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Post by fjodor on Jan 3, 2011 8:59:47 GMT
This chapter is Annie's ultimate emotional rollercoaster ride, isn't it? And she's probably only half way there.
I am now an official sponsor of the phoenix theory: the way Coyote keeps emphasizing the flame thing, can't be a coincidence.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 3, 2011 9:02:52 GMT
I know your quoting warhammer 40k, but I would like to say that I feel that someone who can accept reality for what it is, is stronger than someone who deludes themselves that everything is the way they want it to be. Which leads me into thinking how Annie is going to react to this. Sometimes accepting reality equals the loss of sanity. When you spend a whole life with a lie the realisation that you did can crush you. And even if not you'll never be able to return to your "normal" life. Fair point, although I still stick to my beliefs.
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Post by Tobu Ishi on Jan 3, 2011 9:10:49 GMT
Just to clarify what I was trying to say:
The more attached Reynardine has become to Annie, the more curious and protective he has become with regards to her potential attraction to boys. He has repeatedly asked Annie (and those around her) if she has her eye on any boy in particular.
The general assumption until now was that his protectiveness was merely the traditional unease of a father/brother figure with the idea of His Baby Girl having a Boyfriend.
This new revelation makes me wonder if Reynardine was in fact keeping closely updated on her feelings and wishes out of explicit concern for Annie's life, should she find herself in a position to become pregnant.
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Post by Refugee on Jan 3, 2011 9:14:32 GMT
At some point, Surma had this realization, this conversation, with somebody, and yet elected to have a child.
How long has this been going on? How many Firehead generations, living 20-30 years, then having a child and passing on...whatever passes?
Did Surma have Annie because she remembered the bond she had with her own mother?
I'm just overwhelmed at the implication of what Surma went through to have Annie, and what Annie herself now faces.
I think, I hope, that there is some great prize, some extraordinary experience, that is worth the short life it imposes.
Somehow, Surma thought Annie was worth dying for, and knows that Annie, in turn, will die for her child.
Unless, of course, Rey has bonkered the whole deal by spilling the beans before Annie could be properly prepared for this.
Hm...I have this image of Annie looking within herself, and finding an infinite regress of selves, each incarnation lasting only a flicker, a few frames of the film, but stretching back to some bright beginning....immortality, of a kind, as long as the chain remains unbroken....
[Idea inspired by R.A. Lafferty's "900 Grandmothers".]
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 3, 2011 9:23:00 GMT
Somehow, Surma thought Annie was worth dying for, and knows that Annie, in turn, will die for her child. It is pretty amazing! And in case there are still people on the forum who haven't heard my alternative theory, lemme observe again that this repeating role isn't like a phoenix's regeneration cycle. It does remind me an awful lot of the youngest member of a goddess triad, the vernal aspect.
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Post by Refugee on Jan 3, 2011 9:24:31 GMT
It does remind me an awful lot of the youngest member of a goddess triad, the vernal aspect. Maiden, Mother, and Crone, yes?
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Post by Alexandragon on Jan 3, 2011 9:26:03 GMT
It's terrifying... Poor, poor Annie...
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Post by gumbamasta on Jan 3, 2011 9:30:42 GMT
Hm...I have this image of Annie looking within herself, and finding an infinite regress of selves, each incarnation lasting only a flicker, a few frames of the film, but stretching back to some bright beginning....immortality, of a kind, as long as the chain remains unbroken.... [Idea inspired by R.A. Lafferty's "900 Grandmothers".] Immortal life through infinite deaths. Sounds a lot like what everyone has to go through. Just more so.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 3, 2011 9:42:58 GMT
It does remind me an awful lot of the youngest member of a goddess triad, the vernal aspect. Maiden, Mother, and Crone, yes? Exactly. There are a lot of interesting stories about the youngest member of such triads, particularly the Celtic variations. Wiki isn't a great resource on this topic but their article on Annan (aka Gentle Annie) might be a good starting point, or perhaps Aine who's connection back to a triad is more vague but very interesting. I encourage people to read a bunch of stuff and make up their own minds. [edit] Links corrected! Apologies to anyone mislinked. [/edit]
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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 3, 2011 9:55:20 GMT
Maiden, Mother, and Crone, yes? Exactly. There are a lot of interesting stories about the youngest member of such triads, particularly the Celtic variations. Wiki isn't a great resource on this topic but their article on Annan (aka Gentle Annie) might be a good starting point, or perhaps Aine who's connection back to a triad is more vague but very interesting. I encourage people to read a bunch of stuff and make up their own minds. [edit] Links corrected! Apologies to anyone mislinked. [/edit] I'm sorry, but I have read the page you have linked, but apart from a connection to fire (with them being celebrated with burning fires on midsummer day), I cannot see a strong connection with Surma and Antimony. Could someone explain this to me? Am I missing something important here?
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Post by legion on Jan 3, 2011 9:55:40 GMT
Coyote seems a little too happy of having to explain all this.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 3, 2011 9:59:54 GMT
Coyote seems a little too happy of having to explain all this. Maybe he feels he can tempt Annie to the forest by offering what the court has hidden from her? Maybe as a eye for an eye (for Renard)?
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Post by penguinfactory on Jan 3, 2011 10:03:35 GMT
I like how Jones' facial expression hasn't changed at all throughout this entire conversation. I like to imagine she's wondering what to eat for dinner or something amid all the emotional revelations.
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
Posts: 112
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Post by Anthony on Jan 3, 2011 10:04:47 GMT
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Post by kalechibki on Jan 3, 2011 10:31:48 GMT
That would be incredibly wrong for Rey on some many levels. He already knows that Surma's gift is passed from mother-to-child at the cost of the mother, and the he goes around to "claim" Annie? Not to mention how creepy the whole "use the child of an old love interest as a replacement love interest" is in principle. Due to comments made about the post, I have decided to delete it. I apologise to anyone who was offended by it. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Just trying to give..uh..not sure now, but I have realised it probably was in poor taste. I wouldn't be as defensive as you are being about this. The fact of the matter is that there is a short run manga series by CLAMP called Wish that... (Huge spoiler on this one, if you ever intend to read this Manga, STOP READING THIS RIGHT NOW) ...did exactly this at the ending. The main male character's fated time of death arrived, and the angel (the 'female' lead) whom he had a burgeoning relationship with was put to sleep for a hundred years until his reincarnated soul came back to life...at which point, they 'met' again, with only the angel knowing of their mutual past, and the boy (a young teenager at this point) decided to be with the angel forever once he realized the angel's love for him. Maybe he feels he can tempt Annie to the forest by offering what the court has hidden from her? Maybe as a eye for an eye (for Renard)? Or, since he knows that Renard wouldn't be stuck at the court just because of the laws of man, but is staying for Annie, if he convinced Annie to go, he'd get a 2-for-1 deal in that Annie would leave too? This would still allow Coyote to be telling the truth in that he's no longer trying to trick Renard directly, but now through Annie. ....though part of me admits that I have a hard time thinking that Annie could give up the court, and being in her current form, to be in the forest full time. Another thought this has lead me to: Why did Renard stay all those years if the court really couldn't hold him? Was he essentially waiting for Annie (Surma's new form), and/or hoping Surma would come back to the court? [Edit]: New thought on rereading today's comic: Anyone else notice the way Annie's hand is held in the fourth panel? I think she's probably holding on to her necklace that she got from her Mom. [/Edit]
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Post by whattheziek on Jan 3, 2011 10:49:47 GMT
Coyote seems a little too happy of having to explain all this. Are you kidding? Coyote is always happy. His moments of alternate emotions are fleeting at best. And then he promptly returns to grinning. It's his job to be the always grinning jerk whom you can't help but like if only for the fact that he's hilarious. Also - Gee. That phoenix theory is sounding mighty attractive now. But I'm just going to sit and wait and be patient. Maybe eat that christmas chocolate I still have in my fridge.
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preus
Full Member
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Post by preus on Jan 3, 2011 10:57:09 GMT
So. Apparently, Annie is a phoenix. How many people in Kat's life are gonna turn out to be birds?
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Post by hal9000 on Jan 3, 2011 11:14:15 GMT
At some point, Surma had this realization, this conversation, with somebody, and yet elected to have a child. How long has this been going on? How many Firehead generations, living 20-30 years, then having a child and passing on...whatever passes? Did Surma have Annie because she remembered the bond she had with her own mother? I'm just overwhelmed at the implication of what Surma went through to have Annie, and what Annie herself now faces. I think, I hope, that there is some great prize, some extraordinary experience, that is worth the short life it imposes. Somehow, Surma thought Annie was worth dying for, and knows that Annie, in turn, will die for her child. Unless, of course, Rey has bonkered the whole deal by spilling the beans before Annie could be properly prepared for this. Hm...I have this image of Annie looking within herself, and finding an infinite regress of selves, each incarnation lasting only a flicker, a few frames of the film, but stretching back to some bright beginning....immortality, of a kind, as long as the chain remains unbroken.... [Idea inspired by R.A. Lafferty's "900 Grandmothers".] On the other hand, dying that young means that you aren't going to get to experience a lot of what life has to offer. Arguably, while celibacy (or at least multiple-redundant birth-control) would mean the end of her genetic line and whatever else is passed on, it would also mean a more full and satisfying life. Also, it occurs to me that every time this has happened in the past, it's meant that the child has to grow up motherless for the most part. That's rather a cruel and selfish thing to do to a child, since the mother presumably knows premature death is the inevitable result of having a biological child.
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Post by theweatherman on Jan 3, 2011 11:21:21 GMT
I'm sorry, but this phoenix theory, does it mean that Surma and Annie are both phoenixes? cos personally I find that stupid, can't explain why but it seems extremely unlikely. The lifeforce in Annie's bloodline might get passed on or reborn LIKE a phoenix, but actually being one? ...nooo...
This comic seems to pretty much confirm our ideas and such, although if you read formspring you would already know, guess wednesday is big reveal day!!!
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Post by digikitty on Jan 3, 2011 11:36:54 GMT
the whole 'when?' comment at the bottom really sticks in my mind. I have a feeling that Annie's mind is currently going "never ever gonna have kids!" right now.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Jan 3, 2011 11:40:24 GMT
While I'm still rooting for it, the phoenix theory is starting look like the most and least plausible for where the comic to continue to. On the one hand, most of facts we have learned support it. On the other, knowing Tom, he will lead us down this path, and then whip the carpet from underneath us, and go down another way no one has proposed he would. And we will love it because of his awesome story telling.
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Post by gumbamasta on Jan 3, 2011 11:43:27 GMT
What if she choose to 'ave Annie because of what happend at the court with Reynard. A sort of pennance maybe. Probably reading too much into it. I wonder what if Anthony Carver tried to change that? Trying to save Surma and Annie's life by eliminating that process that kills the mother but only succeeded with his daughter...
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2011 11:49:05 GMT
While I also felt frustrated at first that Coyote only revealed what we already knew from Reynardine (or, at least, suspected) on this page, it's in character for him. Coyote has shown himself to be fond of digressions and delays rather than getting to the point. Look at how, in his first two meetings with Annie, he was ready to spend an entire page each time talking about the old Native American legends about himself (not to mention that, when Ysengrin gets annoyed with Coyote for holding up the meeting with the Court, Coyote claims that Ysengrin is impatient). Look at the answer he gave Annie when she asked him exactly what the Court is. I think it would be just like him to respond this way without supplying Annie (or us) with any new information - yet.
About Annie's narration: the last time we saw it was in the first half of Chapter Fifteen. Ever since, all the narrative captions have been either "impersonal narration" of the "soon afterwards" variety or Sky Watcher's narration at the end of Chapter Twenty-five. So Annie may no longer be narrating the story.
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Post by jayne on Jan 3, 2011 11:50:18 GMT
New Theory (for me at least) : Surma was the last of her kind as Annie is now. If Annie chooses not to have children, their family fire will die.
If this is so, why didn't Surma talk to Annie about this? Since this seems like an important thing to happen, but it hasn't happened, maybe there is still a way for Surma to explain things to her daughter.
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Post by 0o0f on Jan 3, 2011 11:53:01 GMT
Yeah, Annie probably isn't very eager to ever have a child now. But it wouldn't be very interesting if the conflict was that easily averted, would it?
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DC
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by DC on Jan 3, 2011 12:38:12 GMT
Darn it, Coyote, be more specific.
I don't know what I'm going to do with myself with all these answers here. Heavens.
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Post by goldenknots on Jan 3, 2011 12:58:17 GMT
I think the phoenix idea is a diversion, at least if we're talking about a creature that is consumed by fire and rises from the ashes. I seem to recall that the fire has to consume the phoenix entirely, first, and then the ashes regenerate. It's occurred to me that it would be very confusing if Annie had twins. Loren
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Post by basser on Jan 3, 2011 13:07:53 GMT
Jones is lookin pretty bored back there.
Also "when" she has a child? Looks like Annie's stuck reproducing whether she likes it or not.
An addendum after reading a few more posts of the thread: I don't think Antimony's kind have a choice concerning motherhood. It is a thing that has to happen. Now either they're parthenogenetic and just wind up pregnant out of the blue one day with their own clone (meaning that Tony isn't, in fact, Annie's biological dad but instead just a strong father figure) or perhaps they die at the age of 20-30 no matter what, and if they don't want the flame to die with them then they better get crackin' on that whole fertilization thing. But the fact that Tom chose to point out the "when" modifier in the notes seems to me to point to the inevitability of Annie's motherhood as a plot point of some kind.
Oh oh, or maybe they're like geckos and only clone themselves if they can't find a mate by the time they're ready to have a baby.
OH SNAP, Annie is a fire-bellied newt! I knew it all along.
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