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Post by jayne on Nov 29, 2010 22:01:15 GMT
Annie took Surma's 'fire/spirit/source of her power' Or to put it another way, Surma gave her power to Antimony. Recall that Rey said they all knew about what was going to happen? How could that not include Surma herself? They might have found out after the baby started growing and Surma started getting weaker. Anja could probably tell what was happening if that is the case.
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Sadie
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Post by Sadie on Nov 29, 2010 22:06:51 GMT
Random thoughts:
How the heck does Reynardine know about the guides not being able to take Surma in the first place? Was he present when she and Kat were talking to Muut about it? If not, why would Annie share this with Reynardine? He didn't even know Surma had a kid until he met Annie on the roof top.
Why did Reynardine take Annie's word straight up that Surma didn't love him? I'm sure he wouldn't believe she had a reason to lie, but no "Who has been telling you these things, child?" And from earlier back in the chapter, I'm still wondering why Anja switched from "Reynardine" to Renard (that said, it's probably nothing).
Random speculative thoughts:
If Annie sucking out Surma's "fire" was a generational thing (which I don't think it was), there's probably been generations of beloved husbands attempting to fix/change it with no success. Making Anthony just one more in the list and Reynardine an extra jerk for mocking him at failing just like everyone else.
If Annie is pretty much Surma's etheric clone, that puts a kind of questionable angle on Reynardine's interest in her.
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 29, 2010 22:18:49 GMT
Why did Reynardine take Annie's word straight up that Surma didn't love him? Maybe he already suspected, but didn't give it too much thought so he could continue to be in denial.
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Post by sebastian on Nov 29, 2010 22:24:06 GMT
Damn! What a day. First BRO dies and now this.
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Sadie
Full Member
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Post by Sadie on Nov 29, 2010 22:30:36 GMT
Why did Reynardine take Annie's word straight up that Surma didn't love him? Maybe he already suspected, but didn't give it too much thought so he could continue to be in denial. Hmm, good possibility there. It would certainly make sense.
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Post by sentora on Nov 29, 2010 22:40:21 GMT
Random question here.
Was the identity of 'that boy Renard possessed' ever said? And did he resemble Annie's dad?
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 29, 2010 22:49:55 GMT
@satanic puppy i won't say that's not a sensible idea, but it's a bit hard to bring up, which combined with annie's seeming emotional disinterest in romance may simply have put them off. if anyone was going to eventually tell her, it'd be anya, and could you honestly see that going over well? anya: "annie, dear, i think it's best we talked about terrible, heart breaking things with no triggering concern. after all, your mother just died and your dad disappeared, i think it would be best to tell you that you pretty much killed your mom and your children will probably kill you." next scene, we see annie jumping off a building. otherwise, i suppose we'll find out whether anthony is annie's true biological father sooner or later. but imo, if, IF this is a generational thing, and not just surma getting a gift from coyote or something, then that would mean that generations of annie's maternal ancestors had to breed with etheric creatures. while it's not exactly unthinkable, given their gift, it seems unlikely that every single lady found herself a reynard and got impregnated by him. sentorai don't think that his identity was ever given. what are you suggesting, if i may ask? anthony is still alive, as far as we know, so therefore couldn't have been possessed by reynard. we haven't heard of any siblings, either.
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Post by sentora on Nov 29, 2010 23:05:18 GMT
@satanic puppy i won't say that's not a sensible idea, but it's a bit hard to bring up, which combined with annie's seeming emotional disinterest in romance may simply have put them off. if anyone was going to eventually tell her, it'd be anya, and could you honestly see that going over well? anya: "annie, dear, i think it's best we talked about terrible, heart breaking things with no triggering concern. after all, your mother just died and your dad disappeared, i think it would be best to tell you that you pretty much killed your mom and your children will probably kill you." next scene, we see annie jumping off a building. otherwise, i suppose we'll find out whether anthony is annie's true biological father sooner or later. but imo, if, IF this is a generational thing, and not just surma getting a gift from coyote or something, then that would mean that generations of annie's maternal ancestors had to breed with etheric creatures. while it's not exactly unthinkable, given their gift, it seems unlikely that every single lady found herself a reynard and got impregnated by him. sentorai don't think that his identity was ever given. what are you suggesting, if i may ask? anthony is still alive, as far as we know, so therefore couldn't have been possessed by reynard. we haven't heard of any siblings, either. I'm wondering if Kat's parents warned her not to tell to prevent her from finding out about this. Questioning if Anthony actually Annie's father and not Renard as that guy. Renard did possess him to be with her after all. Weird thought, but hey, it's possible.
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mariposa
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Hi, I'm Elise!
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Post by mariposa on Nov 29, 2010 23:13:02 GMT
To me, it seems like this whole chapter has been centered around Annie's feelings towards her father's absence. It would definitley be on her mind; it's the reason she refused to join the Donlans last summer.
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Post by hanneswall on Nov 29, 2010 23:13:48 GMT
sentora and others talking 'bout possessiondude: If I'm not mistaken Word of Tom is that Anthony is her father.
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Post by zeda12123 on Nov 29, 2010 23:14:59 GMT
Okay, so, thats was NOT COOL Rey. Not cool at all. I mean, yes, Annie was being a little mean but Rey pushed a whole lot of sore spots first. besides, think of everything Annie has went through in her young life. And she has to be the strong one. i think she has the right to lose it every once in a while, and Rey not getting this really didnt help. In short, that was not the high ground I hoped he would take.
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
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Post by Chrome on Nov 30, 2010 0:08:11 GMT
When has Reynardine ever taken a high ground, really? Also, there must be something going on, because even Coyote called her "fire head girl." It's obvious he knows something. Same for Rey. As for "we all knew" - he may have assumed everybody knew, and perhaps not everyone did. Also, I've noticed nobody seems to realize that Annie being in the dark about romance seems to tie well with her having a fairly sheltered life in the hospital - perhaps there's an ulterior motive for this? Keeping her out of topics like romance, and more mature things that might cause her to grow up too fast would have a logical reason if this is a multi-generational issue. PS. I think Surma knew: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=340Something about that conversation suggests she was already preparing Annie at least for the development of her powers, and for doing what she does on her own.
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Post by stephen on Nov 30, 2010 0:14:04 GMT
Some relevant questions in the most recent round of Formspring, that Tom felt he could answer without spoiling.
"How old was Surma when she died? She wasn't older than 40, was she?" "No" "Was Annie conceived out of wedlock?" "no" "Has Renard figured this was the reason Surma died the entire time or has he just come to this conclusion?" "He knew all along" "Rey said that no guide would take Surma because there was nothing to take. What did Annie take to the place-that-guides-take-people-to then?" It was what was left" "So the fire spike would refer to the spirit of Surma that Annie now has?" "No" "If Renard is telling the truth, then why did Annie still have to guide her mother to the Ether?" "'It was what was left of Surma" "Did Surma's mother have such a condition too? If not, will it be explained, why Surma had it?" "It will be explained, yes"
So what I'm getting is that there wasn't enough of Surma for the psychopomps to lead away to wherever they lead people, but still enough left that somebody had to do something with it? And Annie could do that, for some reason. Also, completely shut down theories that anybody but Anthony (that is, Surma's husband) was the father. Also, in that last one: since he answered the "if not" part, I'm taking that to mean "no" to the first half. But that's just me.
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Nov 30, 2010 0:14:46 GMT
Annie didn't take Surma's soul... she walked Surma's soul to the aether. Hence why what Rey said doesn't add up. The psychopomps are shown to escort everybody, not just those with special powers. It is possible that maybe Surma wasn't really escorted to the aether. Surma may have wanted to spare Annie from the truth and thus put on a show after she died. the Psychopomps could not do anything so she convinced Annie that she had to do it and when she disappeared, Annie assumed that she was moving on to the Aether when in fact Surma was giving Annie what was left... Or perhaps this goes more into the nature of what the Psychopomps are... if we believe that the Aether is part of a whole reincarnation process or something it could be that the Psychopomps take the spirits into themselves and toss them into their proper place in the cycle... In surma's case however, the process is similar but for her it's more personal, like instead of her spirit going to it's proper place in the aether and being used that way, she transfers her energy directly into her own daughter. in essence this means at the end Annie needs to act as the Psychopomp herself as Surma no longer belongs to any territory; she belongs only to Annie [edit] Or maybe i'm wrong =p ninjas...
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Post by secondofnone on Nov 30, 2010 0:24:19 GMT
Rey is just being a douchebag in this strip, not revealing any profound insights or information.
It is well known that Rey dislikes/hates/bitterly resents Anthony Carver for getting 'his' girl, and for being Antimony's father when Rey (in his mind) should have been.
If Surma became ill and eventually died of complications of childbirth, it makes perfect sense for Rey to blame Anthony, as he does in the second to last panel. Rey probably assumes/believes/wishes that if he had been Antimony's father, Surma wouldn't have died. Whether he's correct about that remains to be seen.
I won't say Rey is lying here, but he clearly isn't telling The Truth. He's telling what he believes to be the truth, what he wishes was the truth.
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Post by ductapefixesanythi on Nov 30, 2010 0:54:36 GMT
Hence why what Rey said doesn't add up. The psychopomps are shown to escort everybody, not just those with special powers. It is possible that maybe Surma wasn't really escorted to the aether. Surma may have wanted to spare Annie from the truth and thus put on a show after she died. the Psychopomps could not do anything so she convinced Annie that she had to do it and when she disappeared, Annie assumed that she was moving on to the Aether when in fact Surma was giving Annie what was left... Or perhaps this goes more into the nature of what the Psychopomps are... if we believe that the Aether is part of a whole reincarnation process or something it could be that the Psychopomps take the spirits into themselves and toss them into their proper place in the cycle... In surma's case however, the process is similar but for her it's more personal, like instead of her spirit going to it's proper place in the aether and being used that way, she transfers her energy directly into her own daughter. in essence this means at the end Annie needs to act as the Psychopomp herself as Surma no longer belongs to any territory; she belongs only to Annie [edit] Or maybe i'm wrong =p ninjas... Here's a thought, it's been bouncing around my mind ever since I read this page. We can all pretty much agree that what Rey is saying is that all of Surma's 'essence' was passed into Annie when she was born, leaving her with nothing for the pomps to take. My theory is, when a magical (or whatever Surma was) child is born, the child is a combination of the essences of the parents. Now take a look at what we have seen of Anthony; he seems empty, for lack of a better word. I think that the reason Surma died after Annie was born, and the reason Anthony was so obsessed about fixing her, is that Anthony has none of this 'essence'. Far be it for me to say he is soulless, but if he had none of this essence to contribute to Annie's creation, it seems logical that Annie would need a full person's worth from Surma, rather than half from each parent. Making Surma's death Anthony's fault, which may explain why he left. Also, conspiracy theory 2, anyone else notice that Annie's kind of acting a little odd this entire chapter? Well, odder than usual, perhaps even...cruel? ....Whatever did happen to that spider from Jack anyway?
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
Posts: 30
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Post by aegis on Nov 30, 2010 1:43:24 GMT
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Post by todd on Nov 30, 2010 2:06:12 GMT
Aside from the whitelegs being dead, I think it would be a cop-out to ascribe Annie's behavior to that; we've already seen evidence before that she's got flaws (lying to teachers, copying Kat's answers, stealing the photograph of her mother and her classmates, etc.).
Besides, Annie didn't even have the "possessed" look that Jack had under its influence.
I was delighted to notice that someone in the Comments page also brought up the story of Feanor's birth from the Silmarillion, which I'd mentioned in this thread.
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Post by ciatri on Nov 30, 2010 2:21:37 GMT
Aw. But I kinda saw that coming. I've gotta rant though...
So. I've been seeing a whole lot of this:
"If Annie wants to be nasty than she deserves to be treated cruelly back D:<<" & "Renard is a jerky face! Poor Annie! :CCC"
Keep in mind...Ann is a TEENAGER. And seeing as how I was one just a few years ago, I understand what it's like to say things in the heat of the moment. She isn't perfect, she's just a kid, even if she seems rather mature for her age at times.
Could she have handled it better when Rey was daddy-bashing? Yes, of course. What she said was harsh and terrible but, he was hurting her by belittling her father and her parent's marriage, and she just wanted to return in kind in the only way she knew how.
Renard did the same thing, he's not perfect either. He was vulnerable and hurt and wanted to feel better by making her hurt as bad as he was.
They were both in the wrong, but both needed to hear the truth anyway. They'll either grow as characters now, or collapse into themselves depending on how Tom feels.
Also, I hate this: "Oh, but finding out you killed your mom is SO much worse than learning the woman you adored and loved was manipulating you into thinking she loved you!"
Bull. Crap. Pain is pain, and it is subjective to the person feeling it. There is no pain that is 'greater' than the other.
Okay I'm done now. I don't care if I get flamed.
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Post by christopher on Nov 30, 2010 2:38:46 GMT
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 30, 2010 2:54:00 GMT
:/ now i'm simply curious as to what his training was. since he's a doctor now, it may have been medical school, but i wonder...perhaps etheric healing? we don't know if he was one of the "weird kids" or just a normal guy like donny.
also, um...o__. correct me on this, but jim? donny misses...jim? am i missing out on a previous thread discussing who jim is?
edit: derp, eglamore.
hmm, that's interesting. i wonder, why anthony then?
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Post by dante on Nov 30, 2010 2:58:56 GMT
If "everyone" - that is, all the friends of Antimony's parents - really knew that she drained her mother's spirit, then that sort of makes what Donald says on the first panel of this page in bad taste.
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Post by jayne on Nov 30, 2010 3:20:49 GMT
If "everyone" - that is, all the friends of Antimony's parents - really knew that she drained her mother's spirit, then that sort of makes what Donald says on the first panel of this page in bad taste. He's just saying she's a lot like her mother whom they miss.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 30, 2010 4:56:31 GMT
In some senses she *is* her mother, on a level far stronger than genetics. She's uncannily similar to her in temperament, abilities and looks (as has been remarked upon in comic). Guh, this makes my head hurt. Gummin' mysticism... *mumble grumble* Temperment? Really? I wish I could find the link where Tom said that people keep mistaking Annie for Surma, but realize the mistake the instant they speak with her. :/ now i'm simply curious as to what his training was. since he's a doctor now, it may have been medical school, but i wonder...perhaps etheric healing? we don't know if he was one of the "weird kids" or just a normal guy like donny. also, um...o__. correct me on this, but jim? donny misses...jim? am i missing out on a previous thread discussing who jim is? edit: derp, eglamore. hmm, that's interesting. i wonder, why anthony then? Eglamore is the one whose training the ladies are discussing. That particular flashback is from when Surma and Eggers were a couple. um, elaborate on her birds and bees thing? annie's pretty oblivious to such things, as evidenced in that she doesn't pick up on parley and smith's "we're having a big romantic moment here" and that she shows no interest in anyone. Considering that, back in "Terror Castle of the Jupiter Moon Martians", Annie was able to pick up on Parley's attraction to Smitty well before Smitty himself did, I think it's a stretch to assume that Annie is completely naive or oblivious about romance. She very well may have been fully aware that Parley and Smith were Having A Moment, and she simply didn't see why that should have precedence over the issue of Jeanne. Random question here. Was the identity of 'that boy Renard possessed' ever said? It was said or strongly implied that the boy was no one who had been introduced in the comic before that point.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 30, 2010 5:10:53 GMT
There's not much else to be said, and based on that last panel I don't think Annie is going to be in much of a mood to make a riposte. Then again, this chapter has been full of surprises, and we still have yet to see Kat make an entry on to the scene. I think Annie's going to be too much of an emotional wreck to put Kat's homework folder back away before Kat returns. So, a nasty confrontation over her cheating on top of all the crap that's already happened. Fun.
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Post by Max on Nov 30, 2010 5:40:26 GMT
I wish I could find the link where Tom said that people keep mistaking Annie for Surma, but realize the mistake the instant they speak with her. Here you go (found via Adam's searcher.) I think Annie's going to be too much of an emotional wreck to put Kat's homework folder back away before Kat returns. So, a nasty confrontation over her cheating on top of all the crap that's already happened. Fun. At that point I could see Annie just completely snapping. Kat better watch out if she decides to give Annie a rough time.
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Post by basser on Nov 30, 2010 5:42:18 GMT
No way in tits am I going to be able to read all that right now, but the thought just occured to me: Muut never said anything besides his "none of us came for her" line. So all we have is Annie's word that she guided her mother. Maybe she's actually mistaken. Her mother dies, no guides come for her, and in a grief-stricken, addled state she hallucinates/dreams that she took her mom to the afterlife. The alternative (as far as she knew) would mean her mom would never see paradise. I can see a child's brain cooking up a delusion to avoid having to deal with that kind of knowledge.
On the same note, does this mean that Surma is effectively immortal?
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Post by Max on Nov 30, 2010 5:48:44 GMT
No way in tits am I going to be able to read all that right now, but the thought just occured to me: Muut never said anything besides his "none of us came for her" line. So all we have is Annie's word that she guided her mother. Maybe she's actually mistaken. Her mother dies, no guides come for her, and in a grief-stricken, addled state she hallucinates/dreams that she took her mom to the afterlife. The alternative (as far as she knew) would mean her mom would never see paradise. I can see a child's brain cooking up a delusion to avoid having to deal with that kind of knowledge. That's an interesting theory, but then I wonder why Muut didn't contradict her if that was the case. On the same note, does this mean that Surma is effectively immortal? More like trapped.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 30, 2010 6:42:07 GMT
Maybe it just means that Surma is transmitted via mitochondrial DNA.
In other words...she's midi-chlorians. Antimony is the chosen one, who will restore balance between the Court and the Forest, and destroy the old ways in the process. Tom had us fooled the whole time - this is actually a Star Wars fan-comic!
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Post by basser on Nov 30, 2010 7:34:06 GMT
That's an interesting theory, but then I wonder why Muut didn't contradict her if that was the case. Well from what we've seen of Muut he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's going to butt into a conversation to correct someone's faulty memory. I mean he hardly speaks more than a handful of words per sentence anyway. Plus there wouldn't've been much point in breaking the delusion- it's not like it's hurting anything and she would have been pissed off at the guides anyway. At least this way she at least believes her mom to be in at peace and such, instead of... whatever the alternative is. Jeanne-ified? But yeah anyway I was just proposing a solution to the "how did she guide a person with no spirit to the afterlife" thing, assuming Renard's not mistaken in his belief. (By the way, how did Renard know no guides had claimed Surma? Did Annie tell him at some point?) Maybe it just means that Surma is transmitted via mitochondrial DNA. In other words...she's midi-chlorians. Antimony is the chosen one, who will restore balance between the Court and the Forest, and destroy the old ways in the process. Tom had us fooled the whole time - this is actually a Star Wars fan-comic! Does.. does that mean Jones is Obi-Wan?
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