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Post by jayne on Nov 29, 2010 16:40:45 GMT
I'm going to throw in with those who believe that Rey is vastly oversimplifying, to the point of misrepresenting, the cause of Surma's demise. I mean really now... she didn't have a soul after Annie was born? Come on now. Annie didn't take Surma's soul... she walked Surma's soul to the aether. Annie took Surma's 'fire/spirit/source of her power'
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Post by johnwwells on Nov 29, 2010 17:01:52 GMT
You know, if Annie was siphoning "fire" from her mother, it's quite possible that her father taught her to exercise extreme self-control to extend her mother's lifespan.
Horrific thought: "Whenever I throw a tantrum, Mom gets worse..."
What would an outburst like this have done when her mother was still alive? Drained her completely dry?
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
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Post by aegis on Nov 29, 2010 17:50:07 GMT
Annie needed to know this, no matter how much it hurt. Rey probably could have broken the news easier, but life doesn't ever work out smoothly. Surely Donald and Anja have already gotten over this and probably bear no ill will towards Anthony, but Eglamore is a different story. Jones even chastised him for letting his anti-Anthony anger get the better of him, and we see more of why Eggers forgets that she isn't Surma.
....maybe Coyote wanted to give Renard his powers to avoid all this somehow...
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 29, 2010 17:53:17 GMT
I know that Antimony said some honestly harsh things... BUT JEEBUS! I think what Renard said trumps EVERYTHING that could have been said. I think Annie is probably going to break down more than him. She's already had a bad day, she was venting, said some cruel things, and then BAM Renard says something that is the truth but is a million times harsher.
It's one thing telling someone that they weren't loved, it's another to say that you were the cause of your loved ones death.
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Post by satanicpuppy on Nov 29, 2010 17:53:32 GMT
You know, if Annie was siphoning "fire" from her mother, it's quite possible that her father taught her to exercise extreme self-control to extend her mother's lifespan. Horrific thought: "Whenever I throw a tantrum, Mom gets worse..." What would an outburst like this have done when her mother was still alive? Drained her completely dry? That would imply that whatever animating force they shared is finite, and that she might use herself up if she got irritated enough. I think rather it is simply indivisible, and Annie growing to maturity, becoming more and more complex, would rob her mother of too much to live (assuming Rey is correct...He may only be able to speak the truth, but he can only speak the truth as he understands it). Aside: Antimony's well documented use of eyeshadow being an obvious reference to the fact that elemental antimony was commonly used as eyeshadow, I wonder if her outbursts in this chapter have been a reference to another property of elemental antimony: it's tendency to explode.
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Post by jayne on Nov 29, 2010 17:59:46 GMT
Awwwwwwwwgeeeeeeeeez.... what if Annie wears the same makeup as her mom because Surma's memory is coming through. What if Annie's grudge against Eglamore is because Surma was angry at him and that's coming through also?!
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Post by satanicpuppy on Nov 29, 2010 18:01:19 GMT
It's one thing telling someone that they weren't loved, it's another to say that you were the cause of your loved ones death. I don't know. Both of them are kicking the crap out of the foundations of each others worldviews. I don't think you can pull out a pain-o-meter and say, "Well this statement is 4.3 the agonies more intense than that statement." Reynard basically uprooted his entire existence to follow Surma, and has put up with pain and imprisonment ever since, and now finds out that it was all a lie? That's pretty bad. I am sympathetic to both sides here. It's a stupid argument from stupid roots which has turned into one of those self-perpetuating horror shows, and I don't think either one is going to come out the other side wishing for anything but the ability to take back the things they said.
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Post by paxjax123 on Nov 29, 2010 18:01:28 GMT
This reminds me of the Warriors series.
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 29, 2010 18:03:10 GMT
@ johnwwells
have you read nightschool (i think that's what it's called?) there's a character in it who has a weird link with her younger sister. if her sister allows herself to be upset, it physically hurts her. she later states that in most families with this...condition, the older sibling ends up killing the younger to make it stop.
i don't believe spirit = soul in this case, since reynard uses it elaborate on surma's "fire," a word not usually used for "your personality/soul/etc." since surma seems too weak to do anything but lay in bed, it may literally be annie sucking the life force out of her...although this has the horrifying implication that all dead people still had life force to give/use. although...she does state that she's of no use to the guides anymore, even though she's clearly alive. hmm.
hypothesis: surma's family line was bestowed/developed a special etheric quality that gets passed down to each offspring (probably daughter, although now i've got this creepy image of dozens of identical women through the ages...). the ability, though it gives them a strong connection to the etheric world, is also closely tied to their...life force? whatever it is that guides take? and anthony was the only one of surma's suitors that agreed to her bearing a child and subsequently dying, perhaps because he also believed he could save her (after all, what could eglamore or rey do? anthony was at least a doctor.) (this also gives me an image of surma dating around, and when things get serious, telling them "oh by the way, my family has this condition....")
other creepy, interesting, foreshadowing thought: rey shows interest in annie's...love life? i mean, the very first time (buff!rey) was probably simple joking, but he continues to probe about it, asking kat and etc. perhaps, as he became more paternal toward annie, he started getting worried about her finding the love of her life and subsequently having a child and dying?
edit: also, perhaps that's why surma had her sent to the court? because she had friends who were aware of her family condition and could guide annie?...jeez, how do you break this to anyone? i can't see kindly mrs. donlan going "annie, i know this is going to sound terrible, but..."
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Post by satanicpuppy on Nov 29, 2010 18:06:47 GMT
Awwwwwwwwgeeeeeeeeez.... what if Annie wears the same makeup as her mom because Surma's memory is coming through. What if Annie's grudge against Eglamore is because Surma was angry at him and that's coming through also?! Antimony is synonymous with the costmetic Kohl. You know what else is? Surma. DUN DUN DUN!!!
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Post by satanicpuppy on Nov 29, 2010 18:12:22 GMT
@ johnwwells other creepy, interesting, foreshadowing thought: rey shows interest in annie's...love life? i mean, the very first time (buff!rey) was probably simple joking, but he continues to probe about it, asking kat and etc. perhaps, as he became more paternal toward annie, he started getting worried about her finding the love of her life and subsequently having a child and dying? edit: also, perhaps that's why surma had her sent to the court? because she had friends who were aware of her family condition and could guide annie?...jeez, how do you break this to anyone? i can't see kindly mrs. donlan going "annie, i know this is going to sound terrible, but..." Seems like she would have had the worlds most thorough "Birds and the Bees" conversation by now. A little hanky-panky is one thing, but that would be ridiculous. I'm still not wedded to the idea that Anthony is her biological father. If there is some singular thing passed from mother to daughter, would you even *need* a father? That'd make the whole process a bit chancy.
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Post by stephen on Nov 29, 2010 18:14:33 GMT
Actually, you know what? I'm going to go out on a limb and defend both Annie and Reynard here. They're saying truths! Painful ones, but things that the other person probably deserves to know. Things that they probably wouldn't find out any other way, because everyone else is hiding the truth. True, Annie could have told Reynard the thing about deceit in a less hurtful way. But the thing is, if it wasn't for a big argument like this, Reynard would probably never find out! He'd go his entire life unaware of the truth about something pretty important to him. The same goes for Reynard telling Annie about her mother's illness. He said it in a way calculated to be as mean as possible, but I'll bet you very good odds that Antimony will proceed to learn more about the nature of her and her mother's power, and eventually know why and how Surma's death worked that way. If it wasn't for this fight, the Donlans, her father and the rest of the school would hide this from her for a very long time. She'll eventually recover from this shock (especially if she remembers that there apparently was something left of Surma to lead to the afterlife, since Annie did so). Well, I'm of the philosophy that it's better to know unhappy truths than to be pleasantly ignorant, and that's definitely shaping my opinion here. Both these characters are being jerks, because they're fighting, but I think this is ultimately good for both of them.
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Post by zylonbane on Nov 29, 2010 18:15:28 GMT
Annie didn't take Surma's soul... she walked Surma's soul to the aether. Hence why what Rey said doesn't add up. The psychopomps are shown to escort everybody, not just those with special powers.
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Post by Zayzie on Nov 29, 2010 18:29:31 GMT
Renard set out to try and get Annie to act like a young adult, but she didn't, and she wanted to justify herself in not listening to Renard, so she belittles him in the only way she knows how, by distancing him from her mother and making herself believe that he never cared about her and that he was just trying to fulfill a role in life that he wanted. Which is partly true, but he probably cares a lot about Annie too. I think that this misses the rather important step in the conversation in which Renard started talking about how awful Anthony was. Annie got defensive and annoyed with him when he talked about her schoolwork, but she didn't lash out at him until he really started to get into what a terrible, unfeeling person he considers Anthony to be. This in no way justifies what she said, but to ignore that part of the strips really minimizes Renard's role in escalating the situation. I didn't point it out because Renard is always ragging on someone to an extent where it would piss someone off. He was being a jerk, as per usual, no surprise there. He wasn't intentionally hurting Annie he was just running his mouth. I wasn't focusing on anyone's role, just how much this got out of control, and how much easier it would've been to handle if someone just calmed down. But, once things escalated, Annie never gave Renard a chance to calm down, despite his visible chances in trying too. Annie has been upset and defensive since the conversation started because she was cheating, and Renard was trying to make her stop. The conversation just got derailed and distracted from there.
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Post by Eversist on Nov 29, 2010 18:36:01 GMT
Awwwwwwwwgeeeeeeeeez.... what if Annie wears the same makeup as her mom because Surma's memory is coming through. That would make sense with Tom's cryptic answer "She doesn't know," when someone asked him why she wore makeup. Instead of vague, it tells oh so much! I hope this is a case of taking the life force, and not the personality, though. I want Annie to be able to be her own person, as much as is possible, since she's stepped into her mother's role as Medium. I hope that the makeup thing is just an attempt to emulate her mother in her memory or whatever.
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 29, 2010 18:39:25 GMT
satanicpuppyum, elaborate on her birds and bees thing? annie's pretty oblivious to such things, as evidenced in that she doesn't pick up on parley and smith's "we're having a big romantic moment here" and that she shows no interest in anyone. since this "you killed your mother" thing seems like a big revelation to her, i'm pretty sure no one's sat her down and gone "well, okay, so when a man and a woman love each other very much....and then the child sucks away all your life force. any questions?" as for why you need a father...well, i don't think people are capable of reproducing by parthenogenesis yet, so surma may have needed someone to help her conceive. heck, even the lizards that do require a "mate" to jumpstart the process. annie may be half anthony and half surma genetically, but the etheric...quality may have made her more or less a clone of surma.
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Post by jayne on Nov 29, 2010 18:39:37 GMT
Annie didn't take Surma's soul... she walked Surma's soul to the aether. Hence why what Rey said doesn't add up. The psychopomps are shown to escort everybody, not just those with special powers. Hmmmm... well, Rey can't be lying but maybe he misunderstood what happened, like when Muut said Jeanne couldn't cross the river. Muut didn't lie, he just didn't know Jeanne was the reason nothing could cross.
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Post by satanicpuppy on Nov 29, 2010 19:04:49 GMT
satanicpuppyum, elaborate on her birds and bees thing? annie's pretty oblivious to such things, as evidenced in that she doesn't pick up on parley and smith's "we're having a big romantic moment here" and that she shows no interest in anyone. since this "you killed your mother" thing seems like a big revelation to her, i'm pretty sure no one's sat her down and gone "well, okay, so when a man and a woman love each other very much....and then the child sucks away all your life force. any questions?" as for why you need a father...well, i don't think people are capable of reproducing by parthenogenesis yet, so surma may have needed someone to help her conceive. heck, even the lizards that do require a "mate" to jumpstart the process. annie may be half anthony and half surma genetically, but the etheric...quality may have made her more or less a clone of surma. Sure we know she's not overly sexualized, but how are the adults supposed to know this? They seem pretty clueless, and if preggers == slow death, they would absolutely bring that up at the first opportunity, rather than risk a "ooops, maybe I shoulda told you this before you got sexually active. My bad. BTW, don't make any long range plans." You're mixing science and magic a little heavily...Not that that's not a recurrent theme here, but saying that it's scientifically impossible for a being that seems to have some generation hopping immortal "fire" to conceive non-traditionally...I don't buy it. We can't just assume Anthony is the biological father.
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lkm
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Post by lkm on Nov 29, 2010 19:12:34 GMT
I'm with scyllarus' hypothesis so far that Surma's etheric powers were tied to her life-force or something . . . they do/did appear strong, and it would make sense if a "spiritual" power had an equally spiritual cost. In a weird way, I'm seeing parallels with Jeanne and Surma's eventual death. Neither of them could be reached by the psychopomps, and since it appears Surma was indeed escorted rather than obliterated, as Rey seems to imply with the "nothing left" comment -- could it be because Surma's power was still "living" and tied to Annie? If her power was linked so deeply to her spirit that losing it/passing it on physically weakened her, it could act as a kind of anchor that splits her soul (because a part of it is still living, and psychopomps can only take the dead). Regarding Jeanne, Muut explained they are powerless to help her, even to know who she is, and that she needs an anchor like Antimony. If you look at Annie as the living component, and whatever Surma gave of herself as the aetheric/dead component, it would make sense that someone like Annie is needed with borderline cases like Surma and Jeanne (who has been physically bound to the riverbank by Deigo's device, which in turn seems to have denied her a "real" death - see Annie and Parley's horrified reactions to her still extremely fresh memories and emotions). Still . . . ouch.
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Post by israfel on Nov 29, 2010 19:19:37 GMT
Kind of put a sinister context to all the comparisons to her mother
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Post by crysiana on Nov 29, 2010 19:21:01 GMT
I think that this misses the rather important step in the conversation in which Renard started talking about how awful Anthony was. Annie got defensive and annoyed with him when he talked about her schoolwork, but she didn't lash out at him until he really started to get into what a terrible, unfeeling person he considers Anthony to be. This in no way justifies what she said, but to ignore that part of the strips really minimizes Renard's role in escalating the situation. I didn't point it out because Renard is always ragging on someone to an extent where it would piss someone off. He was being a jerk, as per usual, no surprise there. He wasn't intentionally hurting Annie he was just running his mouth. I wasn't focusing on anyone's role, just how much this got out of control, and how much easier it would've been to handle if someone just calmed down. But, once things escalated, Annie never gave Renard a chance to calm down, despite his visible chances in trying too. Annie has been upset and defensive since the conversation started because she was cheating, and Renard was trying to make her stop. The conversation just got derailed and distracted from there. Oh, the whole thing is an absolute mess on both sides; I just believe that if Rey hadn't brought up Annie's father and her parents' relationship, she wouldn't have told him that Surma didn't love him. While they still might have gotten into a serious fight about her cheating, I think her choice of words was due to the subject matter he brought up.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 29, 2010 19:33:39 GMT
Technically, Annie brought him into it with the whole "you're not my father" thing. Regardless, I'd say it was definitely Rey who overreacted first. Not that that excuses, well, anything really.
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miraga
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Post by miraga on Nov 29, 2010 20:26:58 GMT
Page 358 gives us this little thing I've stumbled over after reading the page and the forums and seen it hadn't been posted already (or I could've missed it): "The world continues to spin, pup. The boy and his family will ensure it". So maaaaaaybe that what is left to take, what the guides are after, is some kind of force that is returned to the flow, the life-stream, the world after a person dies, his or her soul returned to the big blob from which souls are then formed anew. Since in Antimony's family this force is passed down from mother to child there's no guide assigned to them and if the mother typically dies at childbirth, maybe she somehow 'stays' with her child, only invisible to the eye like the guides are invisible to normal humans without their consent, but since Surma somehow stayed alive for quite some time, something messed up and Annie had to "guide" her, either to the great blob or to the place invisible to the eye (okay this is hardly understandable...)... Or maybe Annie had to guide her because Surma grew so attached to her that she couldn't leave naturally. Or maybe she wanted to make sure her daughter had experience and knew how to deal with stressful situations because she kinda foresaw that something would happen.
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myzelf
Junior Member
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Post by myzelf on Nov 29, 2010 20:37:55 GMT
And in case it hasn't been said, I think this also explains why Antimony's father is so distant with her. It's hard to like someone who's actively (if unconsciously) killing your wife. That he arranged for her schooling and otherwise ensured she had a good life indicates he still loved her, though.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 29, 2010 20:44:00 GMT
I'm with scyllarus' hypothesis so far that Surma's etheric powers were tied to her life-force or something . . . they do/did appear strong, and it would make sense if a "spiritual" power had an equally spiritual cost. In a weird way, I'm seeing parallels with Jeanne and Surma's eventual death. Neither of them could be reached by the psychopomps, and since it appears Surma was indeed escorted rather than obliterated, as Rey seems to imply with the "nothing left" comment -- could it be because Surma's power was still "living" and tied to Annie? If her power was linked so deeply to her spirit that losing it/passing it on physically weakened her, it could act as a kind of anchor that splits her soul (because a part of it is still living, and psychopomps can only take the dead). Regarding Jeanne, Muut explained they are powerless to help her, even to know who she is, and that she needs an anchor like Antimony. If you look at Annie as the living component, and whatever Surma gave of herself as the aetheric/dead component, it would make sense that someone like Annie is needed with borderline cases like Surma and Jeanne (who has been physically bound to the riverbank by Deigo's device, which in turn seems to have denied her a "real" death - see Annie and Parley's horrified reactions to her still extremely fresh memories and emotions). Still . . . ouch. Page 358 gives us this little thing I've stumbled over after reading the page and the forums and seen it hadn't been posted already (or I could've missed it): "The world continues to spin, pup. The boy and his family will ensure it". So maaaaaaybe that what is left to take, what the guides are after, is some kind of force that is returned to the flow, the life-stream, the world after a person dies, his or her soul returned to the big blob from which souls are then formed anew. Since in Antimony's family this force is passed down from mother to child there's no guide assigned to them and if the mother typically dies at childbirth, maybe she somehow 'stays' with her child, only invisible to the eye like the guides are invisible to normal humans without their consent, but since Surma somehow stayed alive for quite some time, something messed up and Annie had to "guide" her, either to the great blob or to the place invisible to the eye (okay this is hardly understandable...)... Or maybe Annie had to guide her because Surma grew so attached to her that she couldn't leave naturally. Or maybe she wanted to make sure her daughter had experience and knew how to deal with stressful situations because she kinda foresaw that something would happen. I like both of these theories.
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Post by Amethyst on Nov 29, 2010 21:10:29 GMT
So what we have here:
1) Surma's mother likely did not have the same condition: it is not generational. 2) Reynardine knows about Surma's condition, and why. 3) Surma spent a lot of time in the company of Coyote. 4) Coyote is in the habit of giving gifts with huge, major drawbacks.
Hypothesis: Coyote gave Surma some gift or power that resulted in her offspring leeching her life-force from her, etherically. Any takers?
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 29, 2010 21:19:22 GMT
Annie doesn't deserve to have Reynardine scream at her this way, just like reynardine didn't deserve to have Annie tell him that he was unloved. On the other hand, both DO deserve to know.
I mean, really, he should've explained this to her earlier, and he did try. I think that this puts his questions about "does Annie like any boys" into a whole different light.
What I am really curious about are the Donlans and company. They obviously knew, considering that Anja weeped when she heard that Annie was coming to the court, but they haven't really kept a very close eye on her. Moreover, it makes Anthony's absence all the more odd. He pretty obviously cared about Antinomy, at one point, but as soon as Surma died, (in other words, as soon as possible.) he sends her off to the dangerous place that is the court and effectively abandons her.
Finally, I doubt that Reynard knows the full story. Surma's soul did have to be guided into the ether, or at least Annie thought that it did. Moreover, Reynard seems totally clueless as to Anthony's part in this whole story.
also this:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathBySex
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 29, 2010 21:35:22 GMT
So what we have here: 1) Surma's mother likely did not have the same condition: it is not generational. 2) Reynardine knows about Surma's condition, and why. 3) Surma spent a lot of time in the company of Coyote. 4) Coyote is in the habit of giving gifts with huge, major drawbacks. Hypothesis: Coyote gave Surma some gift or power that resulted in her offspring leeching her life-force from her, etherically. Any takers? Number 1 is a total assumption. total. Also, most of the failings of coyote's techniques were discovered only experimentally. reynard might not have asked for the gift if he knew that it would kill people. Also, Surma had her gift from early on, to the point that court officials put her and anja with the fairies and such.
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Post by hanneswall on Nov 29, 2010 21:47:36 GMT
Annie didn't take Surma's soul... she walked Surma's soul to the aether. Hence why what Rey said doesn't add up. The psychopomps are shown to escort everybody, not just those with special powers. "Fire" doesn't neccessarily mean powers but lifeforce or spirit which has been brought up earlier in this thread. This is something that is required to perform etheric feats which is why Surma no longer was of any use to the pomps anymore. She just didn't have enough left. I guess Annie performing the etheric feat of helping out fireboy was the last straw. Why wouldn't pomps come for Surma when she had lost her fire? Well, psychopomps gotta eat something right?
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notacat
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Post by notacat on Nov 29, 2010 21:48:50 GMT
Annie took Surma's 'fire/spirit/source of her power' Or to put it another way, Surma gave her power to Antimony. Recall that Rey said they all knew about what was going to happen? How could that not include Surma herself?
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