Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Nov 11, 2010 23:37:19 GMT
I'm going to go ahead and disagree on this part. If genders were reversed and the situation played out exactly as it did in the comic, I'd still find Boy-Annie's actions odd. Turning around and walking several steps away with a blank expression on your face is usually not seen as a normal thing to do in a social situation. Even in a social situation with unwanted and uninvited physical contact? This is the key point here. That said, you say you would judge Boy-Annie the same and I respect that position. I was being a little general, too, in that over all, I've found that girls and women in fiction are judged harsher on their actions than men and boys are. This conversation is a case in point: there's a lot more discussion over whether or not Annie's actions were appropriate, than there is over whether or no Jack's actions were appropriate, with many (myself included) apologizing for him.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Nov 11, 2010 23:39:39 GMT
Thank you. I wish I was able to express myself as well as this. Aww, thanks But you do just fine yourself.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 23:50:33 GMT
I'm going to go ahead and disagree on this part. If genders were reversed and the situation played out exactly as it did in the comic, I'd still find Boy-Annie's actions odd. Turning around and walking several steps away with a blank expression on your face is usually not seen as a normal thing to do in a social situation. You're reading her expression as blank. I'm reading it as calm and thoughtful. Why do you say its blank? Don't get me wrong, she's definitely having an introspective moment, but her expression is definitely blank. It is at rest. Her eyebrows are where eyebrows go when they no longer have any business to go about doing. Her lips are where lips go when you're neither smiling nor frowning. Her eyes are neither narrowed nor widened. In short, her expression is blank.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 23:52:59 GMT
Don't get me wrong, she's definitely having an introspective moment, but her expression is definitely blank. It is at rest. Her eyebrows are where eyebrows go when they no longer have any business to go about doing. Her lips are where lips go when you're neither smiling nor frowning. Her eyes are neither narrowed nor widened. In short, her expression is blank. How would you differentiate blank from calm/quiet/distracted?
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 23:53:45 GMT
I'm going to go ahead and disagree on this part. If genders were reversed and the situation played out exactly as it did in the comic, I'd still find Boy-Annie's actions odd. Turning around and walking several steps away with a blank expression on your face is usually not seen as a normal thing to do in a social situation. Even in a social situation with unwanted and uninvited physical contact? This is the key point here. Yes, even then. I might shoot a weird look and take my hand back, but I wouldn't simply turn away and walk off without a word. That's a good point. I do notice that same trend occasionally. Even women I know tend to be much harsher judges of female characters than male ones.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 23:53:58 GMT
I"m sitting here.. with a calm expression... not smiling, not frowning... just calm... is my face blank?
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 23:55:35 GMT
How would you differentiate blank from calm/quiet/distracted? In this case, I wouldn't. Annie is all three of those at the moment.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 23:56:45 GMT
I"m sitting here.. with a calm expression... not smiling, not frowning... just calm... is my face blank? I don't know, is it? I can't actually see your face to make that judgment.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 0:04:20 GMT
I"m sitting here.. with a calm expression... not smiling, not frowning... just calm... is my face blank? I don't know, is it? I can't actually see your face to make that judgment. Well, I came home, kissed the hubby... sat to read this... my face is much like Annie's... I got up to get some water... chatted with hubby... face didn't change a lot... now I'm back at my computer. If its somehow peculiar that Annie has this same expression, it should be somehow peculiar for me to have this same expression. Hubby is not acting at all concerned. I think its fine.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 12, 2010 0:13:33 GMT
You kept track of all the minor changes in your facial expression during this time?
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 0:15:17 GMT
You kept track of all the minor changes in your facial expression during this time? It wasn't all that hard... I'm smiling right now but while getting up to get the water... not much change. I'm looking at hubby... just a calm expression... he's reading.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 12, 2010 0:24:50 GMT
Well, that's perfectly fine. However, most people, over the course of a normal conversation, change their facial expressions several times. Jack, for instance, doesn't have quite the same facial expression in any panel.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 0:25:07 GMT
I'm smiling because I'm imagining a vast array of changing emotional expressions that may have occurred while walking to the fridge. "I'm sooooo thirsty" "Yeaah.. I haven't fallen down" "Oh no, what if we're out of the water I like" "Yeaaaaaaahhh... we have some! I win!!"
Um..nah..I just got up and got the water.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 0:29:39 GMT
Well, that's perfectly fine. However, most people, over the course of a normal conversation, change their facial expressions several times. Jack, for instance, doesn't have quite the same facial expression in any panel. Reading Jack's expressions, he's having a greater range of emotions. He's surprised in the first panel. Annie is not surprised. He's embarrassed in panel two, Annie isn't embarrassed. He's happy to hear about Annie's vacation. Annie doesn't seem to happy to talk about her vacation. Next panel, Jack seems happy that Annie has shown some interest in him. Jacks in a good mood. Annie isn't in a good mood, she's distracted. We know why she's distracted so I just don't see anything peculiar about her reactions.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Nov 12, 2010 0:38:00 GMT
Even in a social situation with unwanted and uninvited physical contact? This is the key point here. Yes, even then. I might shoot a weird look and take my hand back, but I wouldn't simply turn away and walk off without a word. Hmm, I do see where you're coming from. I maintain that it's not a terribly outlandish or inappropriate reaction to uninvited physical contact from someone who isn't either a close friend or romantic interest -- BUT, again, I can understand why you'd disagree. Yeeeeah. Women in fandoms can be especially judgmental in that regard, and it can get worse the more attractive male characters there are in the cast. It's a Thing.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 0:44:19 GMT
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Nov 12, 2010 0:48:44 GMT
Is it bad that all I can do when I see that page is giggle madly at "Reply: You are welcome, Vegeta."?
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 0:50:26 GMT
Is it bad that all I can do when I see that page is giggle madly at "Reply: You are welcome, Vegeta."? Me too! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 12, 2010 4:03:35 GMT
My face is blank. But that's because I'm reading a thread on a discussion forum, and not having a conversation with someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 4:39:14 GMT
My face is blank. But that's because I'm reading a thread on a discussion forum, and not having a conversation with someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me. Please describe Annie giving Jack the 'correct expression for someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me' Is she wiggling her nose or something? Is she smiling and nodding alot... jumping on one foot? Face it, the fact that Jack shows an interest in Annie doesn't seem to be the first thing on Annie's mind at the moment. She saved his life and he's thanking her....so then what? Should she... do what? I'm fairly satisfied with the scene as Tom has it.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 12, 2010 4:49:44 GMT
My face is blank. But that's because I'm reading a thread on a discussion forum, and not having a conversation with someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me. Please describe Annie giving Jack the 'correct expression for someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me' Is she wiggling her nose or something? Is she smiling and nodding alot... jumping on one foot? Face it, the fact that Jack shows an interest in Annie doesn't seem to be the first thing on Annie's mind at the moment. She saved his life and he's thanking her....so then what? Should she... do what? I'm fairly satisfied with the scene as Tom has it. I didn't say it's wrong, or that I'm unsatisfied with the scene. Indeed, I like this scene a lot, and I think it's a testament to Tom's talent that he can pull it off. I think being expressionless is this situation is noteworthy, however. If it's not, Annie's expression has taken up a peculiar amount of the last three pages. It's carrying more of Annie's current story than her dialog is. What's it saying?
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Post by Casey on Nov 12, 2010 4:53:22 GMT
My face is blank. But that's because I'm reading a thread on a discussion forum, and not having a conversation with someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me. Please describe Annie giving Jack the 'correct expression for someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me' Is she wiggling her nose or something? Is she smiling and nodding alot... jumping on one foot? Face it, the fact that Jack shows an interest in Annie doesn't seem to be the first thing on Annie's mind at the moment. She saved his life and he's thanking her....so then what? Should she... do what? I'm fairly satisfied with the scene as Tom has it. In addition to this, I would say that it's a cartoon, and you simply cannot read the same level of nuance in the drawn faces as you can with a real face.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 5:00:06 GMT
Please describe Annie giving Jack the 'correct expression for someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me' Is she wiggling her nose or something? Is she smiling and nodding alot... jumping on one foot? Face it, the fact that Jack shows an interest in Annie doesn't seem to be the first thing on Annie's mind at the moment. She saved his life and he's thanking her....so then what? Should she... do what? I'm fairly satisfied with the scene as Tom has it. I didn't say it's wrong, or that I'm unsatisfied with the scene. Indeed, I like this scene a lot, and I think it's a testament to Tom's talent that he can pull it off. I think being expressionless is this situation is noteworthy, however. If it's not, Annie's expression has taken up a peculiar amount of the last three pages. It's carrying more of Annie's current story than her dialog is. What's it saying? I'm very impressed with how Tom can pull of even very subtle changes in expression so well. Jack's face in panel 8, his face is turned slightly downward, and his eyes are looking up at Annie. It makes it seem like he's hopeful, just how he's holding his head. When Annie talks about her vacation... she's not excited about it... it shows on her face.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 5:01:38 GMT
Please describe Annie giving Jack the 'correct expression for someone whose life I recently saved (at risk of my own), and who is showing an interest in me' Is she wiggling her nose or something? Is she smiling and nodding alot... jumping on one foot? Face it, the fact that Jack shows an interest in Annie doesn't seem to be the first thing on Annie's mind at the moment. She saved his life and he's thanking her....so then what? Should she... do what? I'm fairly satisfied with the scene as Tom has it. In addition to this, I would say that it's a cartoon, and you simply cannot read the same level of nuance in the drawn faces as you can with a real face. But you can! Tom draws facial expressions very well. Not all comic artists can do that as well.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 12, 2010 5:02:13 GMT
In addition to this, I would say that it's a cartoon, and you simply cannot read the same level of nuance in the drawn faces as you can with a real face. Ah, I guess I simply disagree. The stylization of the characters allows them to be far more expressive - and iconic in that expression - than a real face (Smitty's eyebrows, Carver's :I face, her also:notmyboyfriend face, her furrowed brow leaving the Donlans just now). Indeed, as I said above, I think Annie's face is telling her whole story since 796. In fully half her panels, she's said nothing, and half of what she's said doesn't really say anything.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 5:06:16 GMT
In addition to this, I would say that it's a cartoon, and you simply cannot read the same level of nuance in the drawn faces as you can with a real face. Ah, I guess I simply disagree. The stylization of the characters allows them to be far more expressive - and iconic in that expression - than a real face (Smitty's eyebrows, Carver's :I face, her also:notmyboyfriend face, her furrowed brow leaving the Donlans just now). Indeed, as I said above, I think Annie's face is telling her whole story since 796. In fully half her panels, she's said nothing, and half of what she's said doesn't really say anything. Also, comic are a visual media... why have pictures at all if its not part of the story.
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Post by Casey on Nov 12, 2010 5:10:12 GMT
Guys I didn't say you can't see nuance in their faces. Nor did I say that Tom wasn't a skilled artist. I said that you can't read as much nuance in their face as you can in a live human face. Are you saying you disagree with that?
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 5:14:08 GMT
Guys I didn't say you can't see nuance in their faces. Nor did I say that Tom wasn't a skilled artist. I said that you can't read as much nuance in their face as you can in a live human face. Are you saying you disagree with that? Yes, I was disagreeing with that. A good artist can capture all the nuance of the human face and Tom is a good artist.
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 5:23:17 GMT
Here's an example of a wombat showing determination, and a hyena showing fear They're standing in shadow and not drawn with much detail but do you doubt that's the emotions being portrayed? I'm a long time fan of comics as an art form. Saying it's 'just a comic' doesn't hold much weight with me. By the way, don't think I'm angry with anyone when I do disagree. I'm just very opinionated and not shy about sharing my opinions. I don't hold grudges... I never remember who I've argued with so every discussion starts with a blank slate.
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Post by Casey on Nov 12, 2010 5:24:19 GMT
Guys I didn't say you can't see nuance in their faces. Nor did I say that Tom wasn't a skilled artist. I said that you can't read as much nuance in their face as you can in a live human face. Are you saying you disagree with that? Yes, I was disagreeing with that. A good artist can capture all the nuance of the human face and Tom is a good artist. I agree that he is a fantastic artist. But I have to disagree, I don't think any art or CGI on the planet can capture ALL the nuance of the human face. Reference "The Uncanny Valley" hypothesis. More importantly, though, in the case at hand, you only see Annie's face at a handful of freezeframe moments... there is simply no way to know whether her face remained stone-still the entire time because we can't see it the entire time.
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