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Post by strangebloke on Nov 11, 2010 20:02:33 GMT
I'd like to add I'm not among those who think Annie is socially distant. I believe she's a perfectly normal introvert and there's nothing wrong with that in the least! it would be more accurate to say that she is reserved and phlegmatic. She is interested in others more than herself, and therefore prefers to watch other people interact without interacting herself. She is also unused to people her own age, and so she uncertain of how to act in a given situation.
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Sadie
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Post by Sadie on Nov 11, 2010 20:04:02 GMT
Slightly sideline to the Hospital Annie and Bedridden Mommy topic: It's extremely common for kids with sick parents to be put in the Parental role, having to handle both emotionally stressful situations without support AND provide emotional support for their sick parent. With a distant father, it's even more likely for the mother in these cases to turn to the child for the affection and validation they would normally get from a spouse... which is not remotely healthy for a child. Extreme closeness and co-dependency ("couldn't bear to be apart") can be as much a form of abuse as neglect is. So yes, I'd say it's entirely feasible that Annie having such emotional control and being so unflappable in the face of bizarre situations is a defense mechanism due to an unstable childhood. However, to me, what disproves the above theory the most is Annie's good self-esteem and healthy self-perception. It's damn near impossible to get that with a neglectful or emotionally clingy parent (at least, if it's not followed up by considerable therapy). She doesn't show either the self-destructive thought processes common to abused children, or the excessive arrogance and egotism of someone trying to hide internalized shame and lack of self-worth. It's also noteworthy that at seven, she was very cheerful, out-going, and energetic -- a "normal" kid, sans tugging on the tail of a creature of Death itself -- and a neglect or abused child would have be exhibiting signs of withdrawal and emotional dysfunction well before then. By my view, her awkwardness around other teenagers (the flat "okay" in response to "Thanks Carver!" in Residential and utter obliviousness to other people's romantic situations) can all be pointed toward the fact that she grew up surrounded by adults and spirit guides/gods, not children in her own age/peer group. Her emotional distance/reserve can all be pointed to the fact that she's a 13 year old girl who's mother just DIED two years ago and who's father seems to have abandoned her. I read this entire thread, but can't figure a better way to respond in that situation. What else was she to do? (...) It just seems peculiar to say "She's awkward!" when she's put in a situation that's awkward, because it seems rather unavoidable. Very good points, Unctuonus! I was reflecting on that after I made my original post. I did refer to Annie not knowing the 'polite' ways to tell a guy to back off, but it was pretty much hyperbole, because regardless of politeness factor, there IS no 'right' way to respond to a move like Jack's. Some ways are less confrontational and more accommodating than others, but all come with a risk.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 11, 2010 20:07:36 GMT
here's the real question: if you were in the exact same social situation, would you handle it with any more grace?
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 20:12:50 GMT
("couldn't bear to be apart") As an unrelated aside, I still have this sneaking suspicion that that's going to wind up being foreshadowing for some etheric phenomenon, dovetailed in with both Anja and Renard knowing that Surma was dead simply because Annie was apart from her. But this is my fan speculation!
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 20:13:02 GMT
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 11, 2010 20:17:43 GMT
She is introverted, but that isn't the most pertinent point to the discussion. Many introverted people wouldn't react awkwardly at all to a situation like this. The more important point is that she doesn't know what to do in this situation. I wasn't entirely clear.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on Nov 11, 2010 20:21:20 GMT
("couldn't bear to be apart") As an unrelated aside, I still have this sneaking suspicion that that's going to wind up being foreshadowing for some etheric phenomenon, dovetailed in with both Anja and Renard knowing that Surma was dead simply because Annie was apart from her. But this is my fan speculation! Yeah, I can see that. I still swing back and forth with Rey, though, because he had no knowledge of Surma having had a daughter and the whole "knew she was dead because her daughter was at the court" requires some foreknowledge on how Surma having a child would affect her (the them not able to be apart theory) and on what grounds she would send said daughter to Court (her own death). His reaction is instead to her necklace, which hints at a different set of history. BUT this is all for the speculation thread anyway, so don't mind me. Back to the main topic --
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 20:23:06 GMT
She is introverted, but that isn't the most pertinent point to the discussion. I wasn't entirely clear. I wouldn't say she's as stoic as Anthony seems to be but he's extremely stoic. I believe she's got more going on that she's just not willing to share too quickly.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 11, 2010 20:26:19 GMT
She is introverted, but that isn't the most pertinent point to the discussion. I wasn't entirely clear. I wouldn't say she's as stoic as Anthony seems to be but he's extremely stoic. I believe she's got more going on that she's just not willing to share too quickly. but once again, an introverted person might be terribly unstoic and willing to share what she is feeling. I'm introverted, but my feelings are an open book to most people. hence, there are other things you could have said that would have been more clear.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 20:37:02 GMT
So you think the fact that her expression has barely changed at all over the past two pages as evidence that she's a bit off? There's a difference between showing no emotion and feeling no emotions, and perhaps she's still making up her mind about things and isn't sure how she feels yet. Give her some time. I never said she doesn't feel any emotions. I said she's not showing them, and in this particular situation the fact that she isn't showing any normal response suggests that she is somewhat odd.
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 20:37:05 GMT
She is introverted, but that isn't the most pertinent point to the discussion. I wasn't entirely clear. I wouldn't say she's as stoic as Anthony seems to be but he's extremely stoic. I believe she's got more going on that she's just not willing to share too quickly. Here is an interesting thought I just had, that was sort of brought up by events in the current page. The current page seems to imply the possibility that Hyland Sr. has changed since we saw him as a kid. There are other possible explanations for what Jack said, but, going on the theory that Jack is telling the truth and his dad was being sincere, then we do have to look at the possibility that people change. Couldn't we then also look at the possibility that Anthony changed as well? I've just had this thought and haven't really fleshed it out, but, if Annie is surprised that her Dad isn't at the hospital (Ch 6) and believes that he will contact her over the summer (Ch 14-15) then can we reasonably infer that his being distant--at least to her--is an anomaly that only started happening after her mother died and she came to the Court? Just something to ponder.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 20:45:22 GMT
I wouldn't say she's as stoic as Anthony seems to be but he's extremely stoic. I believe she's got more going on that she's just not willing to share too quickly. Here is an interesting thought I just had, that was sort of brought up by events in the current page. The current page seems to imply the possibility that Hyland Sr. has changed since we saw him as a kid. There are other possible explanations for what Jack said, but, going on the theory that Jack is telling the truth and his dad was being sincere, then we do have to look at the possibility that people change. Couldn't we then also look at the possibility that Anthony changed as well? I've just had this thought and haven't really fleshed it out, but, if Annie is surprised that her Dad isn't at the hospital (Ch 6) and believes that he will contact her over the summer (Ch 14-15) then can we reasonably infer that his being distant--at least to her--is an anomaly that only started happening after her mother died and she came to the Court? Just something to ponder. Like I said, I try not to assume too much about Anthony. Even if all we knew was he'd left his daughter at school without leaving word or a way to reach him... well he doesn't come across as a great guy. He left her financially set up so its not like he was hit by a bus and has amnesia or something soap-opera-ish like that.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 20:49:52 GMT
There's a difference between showing no emotion and feeling no emotions, and perhaps she's still making up her mind about things and isn't sure how she feels yet. Give her some time. I never said she doesn't feel any emotions. I said she's not showing them, and in this particular situation the fact that she isn't showing any normal response suggests that she is somewhat odd. I can't say I agree. If she's honestly not sure how she feels about something, she shouldn't pretend or something like that. Say she's not sure how she feels about Jack. Should she smile and giggle and play with her hair and otherwise encourage him? What if, after she's thought it through, she decides she doesn't like him in that manner. How do you 'undo' that? As far as we can tell, she's honestly interested enough about Jack to continue the conversation.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 20:52:43 GMT
That's a good point, Casey. It's also worth considering how he changed and why. It's possible that his relationship with Surma helped him to grow a bit warmer, and her death caused him to regress to a more emotionally distant state.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 11, 2010 20:59:21 GMT
Edit: I hereby conclude that the reason Annie never left hospital grounds before was that the hospital was, in fact, located on an orbital science platform. It's the only situation I can come up with right now that fits that revelation. Tom had his appendix removed there.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 20:59:57 GMT
I can't say I agree. If she's honestly not sure how she feels about something, she shouldn't pretend or something like that. Say she's not sure how she feels about Jack. Should she smile and giggle and play with her hair and otherwise encourage him? What if, after she's thought it through, she decides she doesn't like him in that manner. How do you 'undo' that? As far as we can tell, she's honestly interested enough about Jack to continue the conversation. I'm not saying she should pretend to like Jack romantically, but staring blankly and walking away from him is not an appropriate response. If she'd, for example, pulled her hand away and smiled reassuringly, she would have communicated the fact that she doesn't want to start something romantic with Jack while simultaneously showing that she still wants to be friends. She doesn't, though. In fact, aside from smiling slightly when they greet each other, her face doesn't change at all during their conversation, which is extremely disconcerting. Personally, I think the subtext is that she's distracted by the recent revelation that her mother was apparently playing Rey, but it's still odd to see her not react at all.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 21:10:57 GMT
I can't say I agree. If she's honestly not sure how she feels about something, she shouldn't pretend or something like that. Say she's not sure how she feels about Jack. Should she smile and giggle and play with her hair and otherwise encourage him? What if, after she's thought it through, she decides she doesn't like him in that manner. How do you 'undo' that? As far as we can tell, she's honestly interested enough about Jack to continue the conversation. I'm not saying she should pretend to like Jack romantically, but staring blankly and walking away from him is not an appropriate response. If she'd, for example, pulled her hand away and smiled reassuringly, she would have communicated the fact that she doesn't want to start something romantic with Jack while simultaneously showing that she still wants to be friends. She doesn't, though. In fact, aside from smiling slightly when they greet each other, her face doesn't change at all during their conversation, which is extremely disconcerting. Personally, I think the subtext is that she's distracted by the recent revelation that her mother was apparently playing Rey, but it's still odd to see her not react at all. how would she communicate:"I'm not sure how I feel about you and I'm not really sure how you feel about me." Your scenario infers she knows what she wants to say. I don't think she knows yet.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 21:22:22 GMT
That was just one example of something she could do based on the fact that she pulled away from his hand (and therefore probably doesn't want to flirt at the moment), but is still talking to him (and therefore probably wants to stay friends). However, if she wanted to communicate uncertainty as you suggest, she could have given him a confused expression. It's not rocket science. Most people's faces change to reflect their emotional state automatically. Annie, however, has a poker face that could rival Jones'.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 21:24:33 GMT
How accurate does this sound to you?
My reading of Annies expression: Panel 1: "I just don't want you to hold my hand right now" Panel 3: She's talking about what should be a fabulous vacation with friends...she's looking down and picking a leaf... she doesn't seem excited about the vacation. Panel 4: Jack says "Sounds Great", Annie says "Yes" but seems to be thinking "...but it only sounds great..." Panel 5: Annie is still thinking about the trip Panel 6: Annie remembers she's in a conversation with Jack, thinks "Ask something about him..." Panel 9: "great...more about Mom...."
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 21:34:15 GMT
That was just one example of something she could do based on the fact that she pulled away from his hand (and therefore probably doesn't want to flirt at the moment), but is still talking to him (and therefore probably wants to stay friends). However, if she wanted to communicate uncertainty as you suggest, she could have given him a confused expression. It's not rocket science. Most people's faces change to reflect their emotional state automatically. Annie, however, has a poker face that could rival Jones'. Ew yuck.... he holds her hand and she looks at him like she's confused then pulls her hand away? He could easily interpret that to say "What do you think you're doing?!" That's harsh! Annie doesn't think this is a big deal and she's treating it like its not a big deal. She seems to be honestly conversing to me. You seem to want her to have another emotional state than she does right now.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 21:46:03 GMT
Yes, it could be misinterpreted. Facial expressions often are.
And no, I don't want her to have another emotional state than she does right now. She's obviously distracted, and understandably so, but it's still off-putting for her to not be reacting at all to their conversation. If I was trying to have a conversation with someone and their face did not change its expression at all the entire time, I would think something was wrong.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 21:47:49 GMT
Yes, it could be misinterpreted. Facial expressions often are. And no, I don't want her to have another emotional state than she does right now. She's obviously distracted, and understandably so, but it's still off-putting for her to not be reacting at all to their conversation. If I was trying to have a conversation with someone and their face did not change its expression at all the entire time, I would think something was wrong. Her expression does change... but she's facing the bush at the time... Jack should notice she's distracted... think he'll do something about it like ask her or maybe he'll assume she's just like that. Edit: Of course, by the last panel, he seems to have caught her attention again and he still seems happy to be talking with her.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 21:57:53 GMT
Her face really doesn't change that much. She looks up. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic panel and says a lot about where Annie's mind is at the moment, but there's not a noticeable change in her expression.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 22:02:04 GMT
Her face really doesn't change that much. She looks up. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic panel and says a lot about where Annie's mind is at the moment, but there's not a noticeable change in her expression. I doubt there's much change in her emotional state either. Just examining it now, it doesn't seem Jack is the foremost thing on her mind right now... Its probably good he doesn't know that... probably hard on the ego a bit.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Nov 11, 2010 22:12:00 GMT
I'm not saying she should pretend to like Jack romantically, but staring blankly and walking away from him is not an appropriate response. If she'd, for example, pulled her hand away and smiled reassuringly, she would have communicated the fact that she doesn't want to start something romantic with Jack while simultaneously showing that she still wants to be friends. She doesn't, though. In fact, aside from smiling slightly when they greet each other, her face doesn't change at all during their conversation, which is extremely disconcerting. Withdrawing her hand while still smiling can be mistaken as being coy or playing hard to get. Smiles and eye-contact are the strongest cues men tend to instinctively respond to as indicators of romantic interest. Conversely, smiling but not maintaining eye contact indicates submissiveness and shyness, which can be read not as "your contact is unwelcome", but rather "your forwardness embarrassed me, but I am still interested". Also, there's always the chance of her pulling her hand away and him letting his hand fall to her leg instead. (I've had guys do this, especially when I'm also being chatty and pleasant with them -- they're reacting to my facial expressing, attitude of engagement, and over all body language (front of my body turned toward them, arms open, etc) and me pulling a hand or shoulder out from under their touch isn't enough of a signal for them.) Turning her body away to create a 'closed', defensive body position would send a stronger message, even if she continued to maintain a smile and eye-contact and sit near him. For all but the most invasive and disrespectful of guys, this is a big enough "back off". (It can still provoke an anger response, though, not that Annie would know this.) Telling him directly "Please don't touch me like that, I don't know you well enough" also carries risks, because he go the defensive route of "jeez, it was just a friendly gesture. Get over it!" or the mad route of "what, you think you're too good for a little gratitude?" It's also a pretty sophisticated social behavior and yes, it is that hard for a girl with limited peer socialization. And you know, if a man was touched in a way he didn't want or found invasive, no one would think twice of him taking several steps away and turning his back on the perpetrator. This is the normal response of someone defending their own space. Women, however, have to display the exactly proper emotional and physical response to avoid upsetting the man (and/or, drawing negative opinions from observers). ....okay, hopefully that isn't too divergent from the conversation at hand. I say withdrawing and displaying discomfort IS a reaction, but I also believe she's got some distraction going on there too.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 22:15:04 GMT
Now, had it already been established that Annie really liked Jack and she was hoping he'd ask her out or something...basically if Annie was acting like Parley... and THEN she reacted like this to his attentions... then I would think she's handling things strangely.
But, instead, we have a nice calm quiet, albeit somewhat distracted conversation between friends.
And if Jack's smart, he'll stand up tomorrow and push his luck a bit before Annie has a chance to go back to picking on leaves.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 22:22:22 GMT
I'm not saying she should pretend to like Jack romantically, but staring blankly and walking away from him is not an appropriate response. If she'd, for example, pulled her hand away and smiled reassuringly, she would have communicated the fact that she doesn't want to start something romantic with Jack while simultaneously showing that she still wants to be friends. She doesn't, though. In fact, aside from smiling slightly when they greet each other, her face doesn't change at all during their conversation, which is extremely disconcerting. Withdrawing her hand while still smiling can be mistaken as being coy or playing hard to get. Smiles and eye-contact are the strongest cues men tend to instinctively respond to as indicators of romantic interest. Conversely, smiling but not maintaining eye contact indicates submissiveness and shyness, which can be read not as "your contact is unwelcome", but rather "your forwardness embarrassed me, but I am still interested". Also, there's always the chance of her pulling her hand away and him letting his hand fall to her leg instead. (I've had guys do this, especially when I'm also being chatty and pleasant with them -- they're reacting to my facial expressing, attitude of engagement, and over all body language (front of my body turned toward them, arms open, etc) and me pulling a hand or shoulder out from under their touch isn't enough of a signal for them.) Turning her body away to create a 'closed', defensive body position would send a stronger message, even if she continued to maintain a smile and eye-contact and sit near him. For all but the most invasive and disrespectful of guys, this is a big enough "back off". (It can still provoke an anger response, though, not that Annie would know this.) Telling him directly "Please don't touch me like that, I don't know you well enough" also carries risks, because he go the defensive route of "jeez, it was just a friendly gesture. Get over it!" or the mad route of "what, you think you're too good for a little gratitude?" It's also a pretty sophisticated social behavior and yes, it is that hard for a girl with limited peer socialization. And you know, if a man was touched in a way he didn't want or found invasive, no one would think twice of him taking several steps away and turning his back on the perpetrator. This is the normal response of someone defending their own space. Women, however, have to display the exactly proper emotional and physical response to avoid upsetting the man (and/or, drawing negative opinions from observers). ....okay, hopefully that isn't too divergent from the conversation at hand. I say withdrawing and displaying discomfort IS a reaction, but I also believe she's got some distraction going on there too. Thank you. I wish I was able to express myself as well as this.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 23:19:48 GMT
I'm not saying she should pretend to like Jack romantically, but staring blankly and walking away from him is not an appropriate response. If she'd, for example, pulled her hand away and smiled reassuringly, she would have communicated the fact that she doesn't want to start something romantic with Jack while simultaneously showing that she still wants to be friends. She doesn't, though. In fact, aside from smiling slightly when they greet each other, her face doesn't change at all during their conversation, which is extremely disconcerting. It's also a pretty sophisticated social behavior and yes, it is that hard for a girl with limited peer socialization. And you know, if a man was touched in a way he didn't want or found invasive, no one would think twice of him taking several steps away and turning his back on the perpetrator. This is the normal response of someone defending their own space. Women, however, have to display the exactly proper emotional and physical response to avoid upsetting the man (and/or, drawing negative opinions from observers). I'm going to go ahead and disagree on this part. If genders were reversed and the situation played out exactly as it did in the comic, I'd still find Boy-Annie's actions odd. Turning around and walking several steps away with a blank expression on your face is usually not seen as a normal thing to do in a social situation.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 23:26:48 GMT
It's also a pretty sophisticated social behavior and yes, it is that hard for a girl with limited peer socialization. And you know, if a man was touched in a way he didn't want or found invasive, no one would think twice of him taking several steps away and turning his back on the perpetrator. This is the normal response of someone defending their own space. Women, however, have to display the exactly proper emotional and physical response to avoid upsetting the man (and/or, drawing negative opinions from observers). I'm going to go ahead and disagree on this part. If genders were reversed and the situation played out exactly as it did in the comic, I'd still find Boy-Annie's actions odd. Turning around and walking several steps away with a blank expression on your face is usually not seen as a normal thing to do in a social situation. You're reading her expression as blank. I'm reading it as calm and thoughtful. Why do you say its blank?
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 23:31:56 GMT
If Jack hadn't sat so close and placed his hands on Annie's, I doubt Annie would have stood up. Since she DID stand up, she needed to do something as an excuse for standing.. which led to leaf picking.
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