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Post by hal9000 on Nov 11, 2010 15:40:26 GMT
You're extrapolating 13 years from one cuddle? Surma and Annie love each other of course but logically, if Surma has been sick Annie's whole life, there must be many times when Surma has been too sick to attend to Annie. Anthony may have stepped in but there was no comfort there. When Surma was feeling too bad to take care and comfort Annie, Annie was on her own and probably very worried about her mum. It boggles my mind to think of what kind of life Annie had while never leaving the hospital grounds. Well no... I'm extrapolating that whatever kind of life Surma and Anthony gave Annie, she learned enough courage, confidence, and faith in her mother to walk through fire at the age of 7. I don't know about you, but I don't know too many 7 year olds that have the confidence to do that just because their mother said they could. The idea that Surma was often too sick to take care of Annie is complete speculation. We don't know why Surma is in the hospital. We don't know if she had days that were any different from all the times when we do see her, on which occasions she has consistently been a source of unending support, love, and inspiration for her daughter. Too strong is the tendency to fill in the gaps with wild guesses and overlook what's actually there on the page. The claim was that Annie lacked significant parental contact or affection while growing up. I feel that every shred of evidence that is actually in the comic points to the opposite conclusion, and only baseless speculation points to this one. I encourage you to draw conclusions based on what evidence is actually there. Saying there's no evidence for it is wrong. The very fact that she required hospice care up until her death counts as evidence, I would argue. At the very least, hospital life imposes constraints that would be abnormal in everyday life, like pre-defined "visiting hours" and having doctors and nurses coming in on a semi-regular basis to check up on you and take tests/replace IV bags/etc. And then there are whatever actual medical procedures she needed to undergo and the associated recovery times during which she wouldn't be able to have any visitors at all.
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Post by dismalscientist on Nov 11, 2010 16:03:58 GMT
The very fact that she required hospice care up until her death counts as evidence, I would argue. Just to drive this home a bit: All we've seen of Surma has her bedridden, part of a years-long hospital stay during the most formative years of Annie's childhood. The conclusion that Surma was unable to have much physical play or interaction with her daughter during that time is not so unfounded, I think. No, we can't know what that time was like -- but I cannot see why it's so terrible to make plausible assumptions. (For what it's worth, I'm going to throw my lot in with those who believe that certain posters need to chill the heck out. No one here has been appointed guardian to the honor of fictional characters, and nothing that has been spoken about is of such consequence to become so utterly nasty and defensive. Before whining about others' negative assumptions about Surma and co., it may be best to look in a mirror and examine how your own assumptions are reflected in your behavior toward other, real people.)
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unctuous
New Member
doesn't usually get such compliments
Posts: 41
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Post by unctuous on Nov 11, 2010 16:16:02 GMT
I read this entire thread, but can't figure a better way to respond in that situation. What else was she to do? Openly state "I'm uninterested," although he hasn't said anything directly? But what if it's a gesture of friendship or gratitude?
She could smile and thus possibly lead him on, not purposefully but unavoidably, because such things tend to happen when one responds warmly. Things would only become more awkward...
It just seems peculiar to say "She's awkward!" when she's put in a situation that's awkward, because it seems rather unavoidable. It's like watching someone place a banana peel at the top of some stairs, then saying "Gosh, you're so clumsy!" when someone else slips.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 16:26:52 GMT
I read this entire thread, but can't figure a better way to respond in that situation. What else was she to do? Openly state "I'm uninterested," although he hasn't said anything directly? But what if it's a gesture of friendship or gratitude? She could smile and thus possibly lead him on, not purposefully but unavoidably, because such things tend to happen when one responds warmly. Things would only become more awkward... It just seems peculiar to say "She's awkward!" when she's put in a situation that's awkward, because it seems rather unavoidable. It's like watching someone place a banana peel at the top of some stairs, then saying "Gosh, you're so clumsy!" when someone else slips. I don't think Annie has decided if she's interested or not. She was interested in speaking with Jack enough to walk up to him while he was seated alone. Jack was interested enough to sit closely and hold her hands. Annie didn't feel quite comfortable like that so she stood up but she's still there speaking with Jack and Jack's fine with that too. Its awkward... life is sometimes awkward... it's rarely fatal although it can feel like that while its going on.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 16:35:22 GMT
You're extrapolating 13 years from one cuddle? Surma and Annie love each other of course but logically, if Surma has been sick Annie's whole life, there must be many times when Surma has been too sick to attend to Annie. Anthony may have stepped in but there was no comfort there. When Surma was feeling too bad to take care and comfort Annie, Annie was on her own and probably very worried about her mum. It boggles my mind to think of what kind of life Annie had while never leaving the hospital grounds. Well no... I'm extrapolating that whatever kind of life Surma and Anthony gave Annie, she learned enough courage, confidence, and faith in her mother to walk through fire at the age of 7. I don't know about you, but I don't know too many 7 year olds that have the confidence to do that just because their mother said they could. The idea that Surma was often too sick to take care of Annie is complete speculation. We don't know why Surma is in the hospital. We don't know if she had days that were any different from all the times when we do see her, on which occasions she has consistently been a source of unending support, love, and inspiration for her daughter. Too strong is the tendency to fill in the gaps with wild guesses and overlook what's actually there on the page. The claim was that Annie lacked significant parental contact or affection while growing up. I feel that every shred of evidence that is actually in the comic points to the opposite conclusion, and only baseless speculation points to this one. I encourage you to draw conclusions based on what evidence is actually there. Well, we know Annie spent her whole life on the hospital grounds. We know Surma has been in the hospital for Annies entire life. When we've seen Surma in the hospital, she looks fine but bedridden, or she'd just died. Assuming Surma was basically fine, but bedridden until she died of being basically fine but bedridden isn't logical. There had to be something wrong with her to warrant her being there and that eventually lead to her death. People can go through terrible things and turn out to be exceptional people. You can't assume Annie was never neglected (due to her mother's health) because she became a strong and exceptional young girl.
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 16:47:21 GMT
Yes Jayne but I don't have to assume that Annie grew up being instilled with enough confidence, courage, and faith that she had the fortitude to walk through flames, because that is actually shown.
Again, the argument here is whether or not there is evidence that Annie was neglected as a youth and therefore that would explain her reserved demeanor. The only actual evidence we have about Annie's youth shows her to have been instilled with enough courage and self-confidence to walk through fire, and therefore not neglected. It's a distraction to get into an argument about what Surma's health was like because that was never the point. That new girl said that Annie was probably neglected and unloved as a youth and that explains her behavior, and I merely presented evidence that Annie was both loved and cared for, to the point of having much more confidence in herself than most children her age because of her mother's words. That's all that matters.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 16:50:21 GMT
An average household: Stay at home mother, daughter, father who is a doctor. Being a doctor is time consuming so the daughter would spend more time with her mother.
When the girl is three, the mother gets a bad case of flu. The girl is not allowed to go near the mother for a week and she is miserable. The father does what he can but the daughter wants her mommy!
Same situation with our characters but instead of having the flu, Surma is having a bad day from whatever is wrong with her. I doubt its contagious so three year old Annie could sit with her if she's quiet and doesn't cause Surma discomfort. Those of you with three year old children understand how well that works so Annie would soon be left to entertain herself somehow while Surma deals with her illness.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 16:53:57 GMT
"strong and exceptional" equals "confidence, courage, faith, and the fortitude to walk through flames"
You can't assume Annie was not neglected because she grew up to be this. I'm not blaming Surma for being sick... its not her fault if she couldn't spend as much attention on Annie as she would if she wasn't sick.
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 17:09:20 GMT
"strong and exceptional" equals "confidence, courage, faith, and the fortitude to walk through flames" You can't assume Annie was not neglected because she grew up to be this. I'm not blaming Surma for being sick... its not her fault if she couldn't spend as much attention on Annie as she would if she wasn't sick. Jayne... that's not what I am saying. Look. The original statement that set this off was "The lack of significant parental contact or affection can have a profound effect on a child." I see the entirety of Chapter 16 as evidence that, despite her unconventional childhood, Annie was loved so fiercely that she grew up being unafraid of supernatural spooky things, and believed in herself enough to handle unbelievably scary things even at age 7. Annie comes right out and says in the last page, the one that I linked, that the reason she was able to do this was because of her mother's words. I think that is all the evidence that is needed to show that Annie did not "lack significant parental contact or affection"... indeed quite the opposite. I feel like the entire point of including Ch 16 was to convey this very insight into Annie's character... to explain why it is that she had been able up to that point of the comic to handle such extreme situations without freaking out. I think it was one of the more touching moments in the comic's history, to realize that it was because of the strength and depth of her mother's love. And I believe that not because I'm blindly "defending the honor of fictional characters" or whatever that one guy blurted out, but because from a literary analysis standpoint, that's where the on-page evidence points.
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 11, 2010 17:25:29 GMT
"strong and exceptional" equals "confidence, courage, faith, and the fortitude to walk through flames" You can't assume Annie was not neglected because she grew up to be this. I'm not blaming Surma for being sick... its not her fault if she couldn't spend as much attention on Annie as she would if she wasn't sick. Jayne... that's not what I am saying. Look. The original statement that set this off was "The lack of significant parental contact or affection can have a profound effect on a child." I see the entirety of Chapter 16 as evidence that, despite her unconventional childhood, Annie was loved so fiercely that she grew up being unafraid of supernatural spooky things, and believed in herself enough to handle unbelievably scary things even at age 7. Annie comes right out and says in the last page, the one that I linked, that the reason she was able to do this was because of her mother's words. I think that is all the evidence that is needed to show that Annie did not "lack significant parental contact or affection"... indeed quite the opposite. I feel like the entire point of including Ch 16 was to convey this very insight into Annie's character... to explain why it is that she had been able up to that point of the comic to handle such extreme situations without freaking out. I think it was one of the more touching moments in the comic's history, to realize that it was because of the strength and depth of her mother's love. And I believe that not because I'm blindly "defending the honor of fictional characters" or whatever that one guy blurted out, but because from a literary analysis standpoint, that's where the on-page evidence points. I agree with this 100%. Antimony has never seemed to me to be someone who was neglected at a child. I would say that her social awkwardness is simply the result of being suddenly thrust into a new and confusing situation after spending her entire life in one location, combined with grief for her mother and, in the case of her cool behaviour, a desire to be like her father. Tom has said that Anthony was "distant" and that Surma was sick, but he's never said that this resulted in a "lack of significant parental contact". I think it's clear that Surma's contact was hugely significant for Antimony, and as for Anthony, well, I can attest to the fact that loving someone does not necessitate wanting to be close to them. Some people simply can't deal with closeness.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 11, 2010 17:43:58 GMT
"strong and exceptional" equals "confidence, courage, faith, and the fortitude to walk through flames" You can't assume Annie was not neglected because she grew up to be this. I'm not blaming Surma for being sick... its not her fault if she couldn't spend as much attention on Annie as she would if she wasn't sick. Jayne... that's not what I am saying. Look. The original statement that set this off was "The lack of significant parental contact or affection can have a profound effect on a child." I see the entirety of Chapter 16 as evidence that, despite her unconventional childhood, Annie was loved so fiercely that she grew up being unafraid of supernatural spooky things, and believed in herself enough to handle unbelievably scary things even at age 7. Annie comes right out and says in the last page, the one that I linked, that the reason she was able to do this was because of her mother's words. I think that is all the evidence that is needed to show that Annie did not "lack significant parental contact or affection"... indeed quite the opposite. I feel like the entire point of including Ch 16 was to convey this very insight into Annie's character... to explain why it is that she had been able up to that point of the comic to handle such extreme situations without freaking out. I think it was one of the more touching moments in the comic's history, to realize that it was because of the strength and depth of her mother's love. And I believe that not because I'm blindly "defending the honor of fictional characters" or whatever that one guy blurted out, but because from a literary analysis standpoint, that's where the on-page evidence points. It's not just chapter 16, either. Page 26, Annie and her mother "couldn't bear to be apart" Pages 93-94, Annie breaks down over the loss of her mother (but she grows more distant almost instantly regarding her father) Page 123 and 124, Annie being taught a life lesson by her mother This is a girl who wandered the halls at night, into random patients' rooms, and carried around a set of lockpicks. I don't think the term 'visiting hours' applied to her. Annie doesn't show any indication of having been neglected or unloved. The only thing that appears to be missing to me is children her own age.
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Post by dismalscientist on Nov 11, 2010 17:50:41 GMT
And I believe that not because I'm blindly "defending the honor of fictional characters" or whatever that one guy blurted out, but because from a literary analysis standpoint, that's where the on-page evidence points. I claimed absolutely nothing about the sightedness of your defense of fictional characters -- I claimed, rather, that you were mounting your defense in such a manner, with such an attitude, as to alienate and insult and put off your human correspondents. However valid your point, it simply isn't necessary for it to be made that way.
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 17:53:47 GMT
And I believe that not because I'm blindly "defending the honor of fictional characters" or whatever that one guy blurted out, but because from a literary analysis standpoint, that's where the on-page evidence points. I claimed absolutely nothing about the sightedness of your defense of fictional characters -- I claimed, rather, that you were mounting your defense in such a manner, with such an attitude, as to alienate and insult and put off your human correspondents. However valid your point, it simply isn't necessary for it to be made that way. Hey, here's a great idea, keep dragging it out why don't you. While you're at it, go back and check, because I was the recipient of the insults, not the other way around. Love to keep chatting with you about how much you think I suck, but guess what... no one wants to hear you smear me. So shut it. Edit: And apologies to everyone else, I know you're probably thinking "Hey, take it to PMs!" Well I had already PMed this guy about it, trying to take the conversation out of the public eye, but rather than deal with it there (he didn't respond) he's chosen to bring it back here. I tried. Maybe y'all can talk to him.
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Post by dismalscientist on Nov 11, 2010 17:56:54 GMT
This is a girl who wandered the halls at night, into random patients' rooms, and carried around a set of lockpicks. I don't think the term 'visiting hours' applied to her. Annie doesn't show any indication of having been neglected or unloved. The only thing that appears to be missing to me is children her own age. But having frequent contact with her mother, and being very highly formed and shaped through her influence, is not mutually exclusive with some form of "neglect" (scare quotes because I don't necessarily think that particular word fits). When I was very young I would run around and play with my parents; when I was very young they were on the floor with me, when I was older we would travel with each other, go to restaurants, visit museums, etc., all scenarios that allow different aspects of my parents to come out. On the other hand, Annie (appears to have) had a rather absent father and a bedridden mother; she lived in a hospital and probably had rather little interaction with her mother outside of that.
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Post by dismalscientist on Nov 11, 2010 17:59:07 GMT
And apologies to everyone else, I know you're probably thinking "Hey, take it to PMs!" Well I had already PMed this guy about it, trying to take the conversation out of the public eye, but rather than deal with it there (he didn't respond) he's chosen to bring it back here. I tried. Maybe y'all can talk to him. I am not familiar with this board software and did not see the message notification. (But note that I brought it "back here" because you demonstrated misunderstanding of my point.) I'm happy to keep it to PMs.
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 18:00:32 GMT
Ok cool, fair enough then.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 11, 2010 18:11:40 GMT
This is a girl who wandered the halls at night, into random patients' rooms, and carried around a set of lockpicks. I don't think the term 'visiting hours' applied to her. Annie doesn't show any indication of having been neglected or unloved. The only thing that appears to be missing to me is children her own age. But having frequent contact with her mother, and being very highly formed and shaped through her influence, is not mutually exclusive with some form of "neglect" (scare quotes because I don't necessarily think that particular word fits). When I was very young I would run around and play with my parents; when I was very young they were on the floor with me, when I was older we would travel with each other, go to restaurants, visit museums, etc., all scenarios that allow different aspects of my parents to come out. On the other hand, Annie (appears to have) had a rather absent father and a bedridden mother; she lived in a hospital and probably had rather little interaction with her mother outside of that. I'm not saying she had a perfectly normal childhood - she didn't, by her own admission, but the phrase that started this all off was "the lack of significant parental contact or affection" - I don't think you can reasonably call Annie's contact with her mother insignificant. Heck, jayne even suggested she 'never left hospital grounds,' and I don't think there's any evidence for that, either. There's just a lot of...hyperbole...being tossed around right now regarding Annie's past.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 18:26:55 GMT
How about this then? "Spending the first 13 years of life in a hospital with an ill mother can have a profound effect on a child"
Perhaps the profound effect is that she is willing, at age 7, to risk danger to help someone. Not everything is intended as a criticism.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 18:28:36 GMT
But having frequent contact with her mother, and being very highly formed and shaped through her influence, is not mutually exclusive with some form of "neglect" (scare quotes because I don't necessarily think that particular word fits). When I was very young I would run around and play with my parents; when I was very young they were on the floor with me, when I was older we would travel with each other, go to restaurants, visit museums, etc., all scenarios that allow different aspects of my parents to come out. On the other hand, Annie (appears to have) had a rather absent father and a bedridden mother; she lived in a hospital and probably had rather little interaction with her mother outside of that. I'm not saying she had a perfectly normal childhood - she didn't, by her own admission, but the phrase that started this all off was "the lack of significant parental contact or affection" - I don't think you can reasonably call Annie's contact with her mother insignificant. Heck, jayne even suggested she 'never left hospital grounds,' and I don't think there's any evidence for that, either. There's just a lot of...hyperbole...being tossed around right now regarding Annie's past. I agree the level of significance is the key here.... Surma had to have bad days, I can't see anyway around that but the attention she DID give Annie was significant. As for never leaving the hospital grounds, Tom just said that and its got me a bit freaked out. I can't imagine thinking hospital life is normal.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 11, 2010 18:37:05 GMT
Ahwell, another reason for me to hate the formspring. Information unnecessary to the story, and unincluded in it, leading to disagreements between those who read the story and those who research it. Yay. Edit: I hereby conclude that the reason Annie never left hospital grounds before was that the hospital was, in fact, located on an orbital science platform. It's the only situation I can come up with right now that fits that revelation.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 18:40:23 GMT
Ahwell, another reason for me to hate the formspring. Information unnecessary to the story, and unincluded in it, leading to disagreements between those who read the story and those who research it. Yay. Without the formspring, we could assume she'd never left the hospital grounds and have to accept being either right or wrong about it. By asking the author, at least we don't have to assume anything. Poor girl has never sat with her mum at the kitchen table with fuzzy bunny slippers and a bowl of Capt'n Crunch.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 11, 2010 18:42:08 GMT
Without the formspring, we could assume she'd never left the hospital grounds and have to accept being either right or wrong about it. By asking the author, at least we don't have to assume anything. So, anything you don't know for sure, you make an assumption about? There's also the state of simply not knowing. Edit: Just ignore me. Tom obviously likes using Formspring and many (most?) here do as well, and that's obviously not going to change. I don't have to like it, but I shouldn't gripe about it in the man's own house, either.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 18:43:51 GMT
Without the formspring, we could assume she'd never left the hospital grounds and have to accept being either right or wrong about it. By asking the author, at least we don't have to assume anything. So, anything you don't know for sure, you make an assumption about? There's also the state of simply not knowing. Yes.... I try not to assume much about Anthony, since what we do know doesn't add up to anything that makes sense to me. Edit: Key terms: "we could assume" means we don't ALWAYS assume. "I try not to assume" means sometimes I do assume things.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 11, 2010 18:49:41 GMT
Yeah, I know, I guess I was just focusing on the second sentence. You never have to assume anything.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 18:53:35 GMT
Tom tries hard not to give away anything important on formspring so he must not think it adds much to the story that Annie never left hospital grounds but I don't agree with him on that. *
Annie must think the air out here is weird because it doesn't have the 'normal' disinfectant smell to it.
*or maybe he thought it was sufficiently implied and we just didn't put it together before asking him.
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Post by Casey on Nov 11, 2010 18:57:46 GMT
How about this then? "Spending the first 13 years of life in a hospital with an ill mother can have a profound effect on a child" I'm certain that it does. I think we see that effect in Annie's personality. But that's an entirely different matter. No one really has long discussions about that matter, because I think by and large everyone agrees that growing up in a hospital had a profound effect on Annie. Again, this lengthy conversation was about whether the claim that (Annie is socially distant because of a lack of parental contact and love) is supportable by first-hand evidence. The fact that she is socially awkward because she grew up in a hospital is a very supportable claim... but it really isn't related to the topic at hand. N.B.: THE ABOVE IS JUST WORDS ON A SCREEN TYPED AS A PART OF A DISCUSSION AND IS NOT IN ANY WAY MEANT TO BE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE PERSONALITY OF THE PERSON TO WHOM IT IS RESPONDING NOR MEANT WITH ANY MALICE, INSULT, OR CONDESCENSION. The fact that any such disclaimer might be necessary, though, is rather laughable.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 11, 2010 18:58:28 GMT
neglected? no. Even if her mom was very sickly and bedridden at times, Surma would still be around for a lot of Annie's childhood. Compared to a lot of children, Annie had a ton of attention. Heh, she's probably had more than someone like Jack Hyland, whose dad hasn't even visited since the events of "spring heeled."
But she hasn't exactly learnt how to deal with people her own age either. Think about it. All of the people in Annie's life were either medical staff, psychopomps, or old people on the verge of death. Kat is probably her first friend. She has barely gotten over that. And now romance... she is totally and absolutely out of her depth here.
she never reacts rationally to romance. look at all the comic.
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 19:00:32 GMT
How about this then? "Spending the first 13 years of life in a hospital with an ill mother can have a profound effect on a child" I'm certain that it does. I think we see that effect in Annie's personality. But that's an entirely different matter. No one really has long discussions about that matter, because I think by and large everyone agrees that growing up in a hospital had a profound effect on Annie. Again, this lengthy conversation was about whether the claim that (Annie is socially distant because of a lack of parental contact and love) is supportable by first-hand evidence. The fact that she is socially awkward because she grew up in a hospital is a very supportable claim... but it really isn't related to the topic at hand. N.B.: THE ABOVE IS JUST WORDS ON A SCREEN TYPED AS A PART OF A DISCUSSION AND IS NOT IN ANY WAY MEANT TO BE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE PERSONALITY OF THE PERSON TO WHOM IT IS RESPONDING NOR MEANT WITH ANY MALICE, INSULT, OR CONDESCENSION. The fact that any such disclaimer might be necessary, though, is rather laughable. I'd like to add I'm not among those who think Annie is socially distant. I believe she's a perfectly normal introvert and there's nothing wrong with that in the least!
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 19:40:03 GMT
So you think the fact that her expression has barely changed at all over the past two pages as evidence that she's a bit off?
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Post by jayne on Nov 11, 2010 19:45:19 GMT
So you think the fact that her expression has barely changed at all over the past two pages as evidence that she's a bit off? There's a difference between showing no emotion and feeling no emotions, and perhaps she's still making up her mind about things and isn't sure how she feels yet. Give her some time.
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