guyy
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Posts: 113
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Post by guyy on Oct 24, 2012 17:46:26 GMT
Next page, Jones frozen inside a glacier. And then, Jones falling into a freezing lake while wrestling a saber-toothed cat and/or wooly mammoth and/or caveman who looks an awful lot like Eggers.
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Post by OrzBrain on Oct 24, 2012 18:00:19 GMT
You might want to read around the subject for some ideas about how disastrous it would be for immortality to be generally available (imagine if the likes of Hitler, Dahmer, Kim Il Sung, etc could live for ever) not to mention the unlikelihood of it remaining so without government interference (likewise, imagine who would get to live for ever if it were under state control). Now, do those Tucks really look so bad when you think about it? I fail to see the problem with Hitler, Dahmer, Kim Il Sung, etc living forever. Because, if they live forever, then so do the people they control. And there is a reason that organizations like the Hitler Youth and the Brownshirts were so essential to Hitler acquiring power. A political movement like that thrives on the ignorance of the young. Give the people Hitler was trying to control a few hundred years of experience, and I don't see him having a chance in hell of doing more than talking himself hoarse. Besides, immortality, even of the indestructible Jones variety, does not preclude execution. Put immortal Hitler in a block of concrete and drop it in a deep ocean trench and I'd imagine that by the time plate subduction brings him to shore he'd be... harmless. I'd like to see some references to what you would suggest reading on the subject, because I have never read anything talking about the wonders of mortality that didn't sound like someone trying to convince themselves that their terminal disease is really a good thing. That's not how responsibility works. It's quite typical (but perfectly wrong) of the modern zeitgeist to believe that every bad thing that happens anywhere needs *someone* to blame, accidents and plain bad luck are no longer accepted. It's with this kind of reasoning that you give prison sentences to geologists, on the count of manslaughter, because they didn't correctly predict the occurrence of an earthquake. That's not how responsibility works? Really? So you're saying that if, hypothetically, everyone on earth were suffering from a deadly plague and had at most a year to live, and I had unlimited quantities of a drug that could cure them, and I said, "No, to hell with them, let them die," that I wouldn't be responsible for the death of everyone on Earth? And that I also wouldn't be responsible for the rioting and property damage which might potentially occur when everyone realized they had less than a year to live? Do you see how this is exactly like the situation that Tuck Everlasting is based on, with the only exaggeration being that some of the people in the book had more than a year to live? What, exactly, does this have to do with imprisoning geologists because they failed to predict an earthquake correctly? How does that relate in any way?
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Post by Jackrat on Oct 24, 2012 18:00:55 GMT
This is like the most unnerving Matroyshka doll ever.
You think you've hit the end, but then Jones opens up into another Jones who opens up into another Jones.
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Post by nero on Oct 24, 2012 18:11:35 GMT
Oh, Jones I almost want to change my name. I chose this name because it sounded different I forgot about Rome's history.
I still believe Jones didn't start out as a human and that she's not a manmade creation. She some spirit's creation.
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Post by Jackrat on Oct 24, 2012 18:21:01 GMT
Oh, Jones I almost want to change my name. I chose this name because it sounded different I forgot about Rome's history. I still believe Jones didn't start out as a human and that she's not a manmade creation. She some spirit's creation. Prediction: she's a Highlander.
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psykeout
Junior Member
I will construct a robotic posting device...
Posts: 56
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Post by psykeout on Oct 24, 2012 18:32:47 GMT
Two new theories I been thinkin of, following the same line of thought. I've been thinking about what Coyote and Annie said about Jones. Which is basically: Coyote- Mankind is really powerful and they can create things by believing in them Annie- But wait that can't be right, Jones disproves that Coyote- It may seem that way, but she is in fact a perfect example of my theory (also something about stars) This means that Jones is somehow a creation of Man in a similar fashion to Coyote, but in a way that seems contradictory. Theory 1) The theme in this chapter is obviously that we're moving farther and farther back, which means that the ultimate destination is the beginning of time (provided we go back that far). What if Jones was once a regular woman, or a stone (as this page may be foreshadowing) or perhaps the stars in the night sky even. And people then saw her and formed a myth about her (just like how people formed myths about coyote). But this particular myth was that she was present at the beginning of time. Perhaps she's something like a guardian figure or maintainer. This would cause Annie to say "You can't be right, because then Jones couldn't exist, because she was around before her myths ever existed." to which Coyote would say "But that's just it, the mind of man is so powerful and hungry for answers that if it can believe someone existed at the beginning of time, then they can make it so" Theory 2) Jones was some minor deity of some form, something like Coyote, created from the myths of man. Then Jones pulled this whole "Mother Lover perfect woman" business and men started to wish that she was actually real, because they loved her. To the point that their wishes brought Jones into actual existence, rather than the 'faux-existence' that coyote has. Which is to say, they wished she wasn't a being of the ether, but rather a real actual person. And so Annie would say "But you can't be right about your theory, coyote, because Jones was a myth of man and she isn't an etherical being." To which coyote would reply "Ah, Jones is a perfect example of Man's power. Man is able to bring something into the physical world that never truly existed outside of the ether."
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Post by zimmyzims on Oct 24, 2012 18:55:35 GMT
Edit: If Jones's flashbacks go further back in history, let's say Ancient Egypt, perhaps we will see her as a slave of the Ancient Egyptians since slaves were lighter-skinned. However, if not light-skinned but still not Egyptian, slaves were still classified as a certain type of slave doing certain kinds of work. Uh, alchemysea, I think you might have linked to wrong article, because that one, according to the abstract, does not concern the Ancient Egypt at all (but the nineteenth century, you know, from 1800 AD on), nor does it actually say that the slaves were lighter-skinned. Quite oppositely, it states that there were slaves of all colours in the 19th century Egypt, and frankly, I find no reason to believe that this was not the case in the Ancient Egypt either. Most of the time in history, even if the so called "race" may have been a factor, whether one has been a slave or a free/master has not been determined by the skin colour but by filiation. Of course, the two are connected to an extent, but still not the same thing.
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Post by smjjames on Oct 24, 2012 19:02:24 GMT
Or perhaps her origin story is something like that of the Monkey King, AKA Sun Wukong or the Stone Monkey. In the Journey to The West (try and find the origional full story in english translation, it's a GREAT read), he is literally born of stone and later on does various things (getting into trouble mostly) which ends up with him becoming indestructible, even to the magics that the Heavens wielded.
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Post by seaofalchemy on Oct 24, 2012 19:44:11 GMT
Edit: If Jones's flashbacks go further back in history, let's say Ancient Egypt, perhaps we will see her as a slave of the Ancient Egyptians since slaves were lighter-skinned. However, if not light-skinned but still not Egyptian, slaves were still classified as a certain type of slave doing certain kinds of work. Uh, alchemysea, I think you might have linked to wrong article, because that one, according to the abstract, does not concern the Ancient Egypt at all (but the nineteenth century, you know, from 1800 AD on), nor does it actually say that the slaves were lighter-skinned. Quite oppositely, it states that there were slaves of all colours in the 19th century Egypt, and frankly, I find no reason to believe that this was not the case in the Ancient Egypt either. Most of the time in history, even if the so called "race" may have been a factor, whether one has been a slave or a free/master has not been determined by the skin colour but by filiation. Of course, the two are connected to an extent, but still not the same thing. Oh shit. You're right, the link to the article is incorrect and definitely disproves my post. Not only that, but the "light-skinned" myth may be false too. That is, it is not true that light-skinned people were subject to slavery in Ancient Egypt. The only evidence that shows that "light-skinned" people were slaves to the Egyptians was what is said in the Exodus in the Bible: that the Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians and how the Israelites leave slavery in Egypt. However, the Exodus did not cover during the time of the Ancient Egypt but of a much much later time (around 1500 - 1300 BC or something). Anyway, the point is, my post above is incorrect, it's irrelevant, light-skinned people weren't slaves to Ancient Egyptians (little to no evidence), and slaves in Ancient Egypt were actually paid. The end. Let's just move on and change the subject because I feel like a total fool right now. ;D
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unrequited
Junior Member
Tormentor of the Heart, close friend of the Spleen
Posts: 74
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Post by unrequited on Oct 24, 2012 20:33:51 GMT
Rome burns, and Jones watches (While also burning). Just one or two more jumps and then Jones will (Ironically) be discovering fire.
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Post by smjjames on Oct 24, 2012 20:43:57 GMT
Rome burns, and Jones watches (While also burning). Just one or two more jumps and then Jones will (Ironically) be discovering fire. No, it was Homo Erectus that discovered fire, and we aren't going back 2 million years.....
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Post by exdevlin on Oct 24, 2012 21:17:46 GMT
First of all, props to krael for graphing this timeline progression. You are what I would have called a best friend in school.
Now, as for Jones' relation to the chapter title -- the Sphinx is a tantalizing idea, and good on everyone for noticing her slightly darker skintone. I had noticed it in earlier chapters but never really made note of it as something important until the white-skinned civilization discussion came up. Props to the forum members for being such history buffs!
Things that don't hurt Jones: falling great distances? I wonder if she's ever been pushed off a cliff for being different..
Still wondering if Jones was just a rock at some point that just happened to be shaped uncannily like a woman, and the local populace believed in her until she became what she is. Who knows what kind of things Neanderthals believed in?
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Post by Mitth'raw'nuruodo on Oct 24, 2012 21:28:31 GMT
Oh shit. You're right, the link to the article is incorrect and definitely disproves my post. Not only that, but the "light-skinned" myth may be false too. That is, it is not true that light-skinned people were subject to slavery in Ancient Egypt. The only evidence that shows that "light-skinned" people were slaves to the Egyptians was what is said in the Exodus in the Bible: that the Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians and how the Israelites leave slavery in Egypt. However, the Exodus did not cover during the time of the Ancient Egypt but of a much much later time (around 1500 - 1300 BC or something). Anyway, the point is, my post above is incorrect, it's irrelevant, light-skinned people weren't slaves to Ancient Egyptians (little to no evidence), and slaves in Ancient Egypt were actually paid. The end. Let's just move on and change the subject because I feel like a total fool right now. ;D Yes and no. There were light skinned "slaves", more like hired servants, as was previously mentioned. They came from the area around Greece, Thracians for example.
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Post by exuberancium on Oct 24, 2012 21:37:21 GMT
I'm going to speculate that asphyxiation probably won't work either.
I wonder if a lot of electricity could kill Jones or if she'd just shrug it off, completely indifferent to its existence.
Right now it's looking like the only thing that could even put a dent in Jones is like crushing her with a billion tons of diamond. Even that might not work, instead just leaving a Jones-shaped hole in it. Then I guess try graphene razor blades. If that fails, not even Superman could take her down. Our only option is to send her past the event horizon of a black hole.
Except instead of being a threat to humanity that must be stopped at all costs, she's just kind of there. Observing. Completely innocent and not even slightly malicious. Which is good for the sake of everyone on the planet.
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Post by williamansley on Oct 24, 2012 21:44:23 GMT
Okay, should we declare her impervious to fire? Maybe she is a true immortal. An artistic note: She is *not* on fire - she's reflecting image of the fire, (Marble has some reflective properties, but I digress) From a practical standpoint, having her clothes burn away would be pretty distracting. "Oh bother" I disagree. I don't see how any reasonable person can interpret this image as showing anything except that Jones' clothes have started burning.
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krael
Junior Member
Posts: 95
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Post by krael on Oct 24, 2012 23:14:06 GMT
First of all, props to krael for graphing this timeline progression. You are what I would have called a best friend in school. That is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me... coolcoolcool! at any rate, the prediction capabilities are failing. As someone pointed out: Tom follows a 'years, several years, many years'. At least it's a funny observation that humanity's description of past-time goes faster than exponential. How fast we forget
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 24, 2012 23:34:46 GMT
The way Jones is standing, especially with that column behind her, made me think of caryatids.
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Post by FlyingMug on Oct 24, 2012 23:41:36 GMT
I was going to say "Burn the witch!" yesterday but it looks like we're already hot on that.
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Post by King Mir on Oct 25, 2012 0:15:55 GMT
bad typo (though I was aiming at 'solidair', which isn't english after all, I guess) Anyway, trying to update the graph, I found that the datapoints can NOT be fitted with a simple exponential curve anymore. the last two points go too fast! I had to use a double exponential, which doesn't make much sense except that it fits the points up till now, but we can throw the idea of a predefined pattern out of the window by now. The red line shows the previous prediction. You can see we deviate badly from it. So, Good luck for impatient people! We're leaving documented history pretty fast now. Looks like this is in need of a logarithmic plot; the earlier data points are too close in time to see how far off the trend they are.
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Post by Georgie L on Oct 25, 2012 1:43:45 GMT
Two new theories I been thinkin of, following the same line of thought. I've been thinking about what Coyote and Annie said about Jones. Which is basically: Coyote- Mankind is really powerful and they can create things by believing in them Annie- But wait that can't be right, Jones disproves that Coyote- It may seem that way, but she is in fact a perfect example of my theory (also something about stars) This means that Jones is somehow a creation of Man in a similar fashion to Coyote, but in a way that seems contradictory. Theory 1) The theme in this chapter is obviously that we're moving farther and farther back, which means that the ultimate destination is the beginning of time (provided we go back that far). What if Jones was once a regular woman, or a stone (as this page may be foreshadowing) or perhaps the stars in the night sky even. And people then saw her and formed a myth about her (just like how people formed myths about coyote). But this particular myth was that she was present at the beginning of time. Perhaps she's something like a guardian figure or maintainer. This would cause Annie to say "You can't be right, because then Jones couldn't exist, because she was around before her myths ever existed." to which Coyote would say "But that's just it, the mind of man is so powerful and hungry for answers that if it can believe someone existed at the beginning of time, then they can make it so" Theory 2) Jones was some minor deity of some form, something like Coyote, created from the myths of man. Then Jones pulled this whole "Mother Lover perfect woman" business and men started to wish that she was actually real, because they loved her. To the point that their wishes brought Jones into actual existence, rather than the 'faux-existence' that coyote has. Which is to say, they wished she wasn't a being of the ether, but rather a real actual person. And so Annie would say "But you can't be right about your theory, coyote, because Jones was a myth of man and she isn't an etherical being." To which coyote would reply "Ah, Jones is a perfect example of Man's power. Man is able to bring something into the physical world that never truly existed outside of the ether." I love both of these theories. Logical in there progression, I think B is my favourite personally.
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Post by umwelt on Oct 25, 2012 4:08:51 GMT
Besides, immortality, even of the indestructible Jones variety, does not preclude execution. Put immortal Hitler in a block of concrete and drop it in a deep ocean trench and I'd imagine that by the time plate subduction brings him to shore he'd be... harmless. Concrete? HAH! Think bigger man. Molten steel? Maybe gold to better resist corrosion? Think about that. A gold Hitler "statue" chilling in a vault in Fort Knox. ;D
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Post by smjjames on Oct 25, 2012 4:27:52 GMT
Besides, immortality, even of the indestructible Jones variety, does not preclude execution. Put immortal Hitler in a block of concrete and drop it in a deep ocean trench and I'd imagine that by the time plate subduction brings him to shore he'd be... harmless. Concrete? HAH! Think bigger man. Molten steel? Maybe gold to better resist corrosion? Think about that. A gold Hitler "statue" chilling in a vault in Fort Knox. ;D Or carbonite, but being asleep the entire time would kind of make such imprisionment moot.
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Post by tiercel on Oct 25, 2012 4:44:16 GMT
Y'know, one can't help but wonder at what point in history Jones discovered....
...compound interest.
After all, if you are going to have the social downside of immortality (watching everything and everyone you care about, take an interest in, or even just experience crumble and die), you might as well soak one of the upsides.
-----
As we go back further (and exponentially further) back in time, at some point one has to wonder that Jones seems to have *any* real capacity for showing interest and affection for human beings. It's one thing to allow yourself to become emotionally invested in a shorter-lived being that still at least lives for an appreciable fraction (~10-20%) of your own lifespan, like a pet. How much you could get attached to having a favorite dog if it only lived for a year... or a month.. or a week, relative to your lifespan, though?
Even if we are getting close to Jones' actual origin (e.g. if she is actually Galatea 1.0), an average human lifespan is going to be around 2% of hers -- and if the exponential progression continues much longer, human lifespans are going to start looking more like an insect's relative to hers.
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Post by warrl on Oct 25, 2012 4:57:27 GMT
You guys might be right that immortality sucks. But you know what? I'd bet anything and everything in the world that it is better by far than the alternative. I once came across a story where Merlin had asked the gods for, and been granted, eternal life. And regretted that he had not asked for eternal youth to go with it. Take the general physical decline from age 25 to age 90 - and extend it another few hundred years...
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Post by smjjames on Oct 25, 2012 5:16:14 GMT
Y'know, one can't help but wonder at what point in history Jones discovered.... ...compound interest. After all, if you are going to have the social downside of immortality (watching everything and everyone you care about, take an interest in, or even just experience crumble and die), you might as well soak one of the upsides. ----- As we go back further (and exponentially further) back in time, at some point one has to wonder that Jones seems to have *any* real capacity for showing interest and affection for human beings. It's one thing to allow yourself to become emotionally invested in a shorter-lived being that still at least lives for an appreciable fraction (~10-20%) of your own lifespan, like a pet. How much you could get attached to having a favorite dog if it only lived for a year... or a month.. or a week, relative to your lifespan, though? Even if we are getting close to Jones' actual origin (e.g. if she is actually Galatea 1.0), an average human lifespan is going to be around 2% of hers -- and if the exponential progression continues much longer, human lifespans are going to start looking more like an insect's relative to hers. Yeah, such is the realm of the gods, and THEY have been around for eons.
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Post by seaofalchemy on Oct 25, 2012 7:11:03 GMT
The actual Great Fire of Rome supposedly occurred for 6 days until it finally died down. It makes me wonder (assuming her ability to resist damage is true—like some of you have noticed she's impervious to fire) if she stood there for 6 days and watched. Or if this was her queue to take a run for it and go "missing" like Tom notes in page 1106. Also... so far we've seen her in England, in America, back to Europe, then specifically in Rome. She could have taken a ship across the Mediterranean Sea from Bethlehem, Israel to Rome after seeing Jesus—assuming she does, which I kind of hope for and which not might be shown on Friday.
But by the rate of krael's awesome graph, it doesn't look like we're going to see Jesus Christ's birth or his crucifixion. I was sort of hoping to see Jones witness one or the other. Perhaps Jones would be somewhere else and hear about the birth of the "the new born king" instead of in the actual animal stable; perhaps Jones will be observing, away from the crowd of Jesus's execution and his crucifixion. Either one, and I'm not at all religious, but I think it would be interesting to see Jones around the time when one of the most significant events in religious history occurred. I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying it would be interesting to see it.
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krael
Junior Member
Posts: 95
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Post by krael on Oct 25, 2012 12:45:41 GMT
Looks like this is in need of a logarithmic plot; the earlier data points are too close in time to see how far off the trend they are. You're absolutely right. Here ya go Red line is a single exponential, so you see Tom goes faster that that. Black line fails to fit the early points completely.
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Post by Per on Oct 25, 2012 13:22:23 GMT
I once came across a story where Merlin had asked the gods for, and been granted, eternal life. And regretted that he had not asked for eternal youth to go with it. This is the story of Eos and Tithonus from old Greekian times.
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unrequited
Junior Member
Tormentor of the Heart, close friend of the Spleen
Posts: 74
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Post by unrequited on Oct 25, 2012 14:19:06 GMT
Rome burns, and Jones watches (While also burning). Just one or two more jumps and then Jones will (Ironically) be discovering fire. No, it was Homo Erectus that discovered fire, and we aren't going back 2 million years..... I'm just joking, but the internet hates inflections and various other language tools that let others tell I'm joking. :I But seriously, Jones will be with the Cro Magnon in a few pages.
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tpman
Full Member
Posts: 161
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Post by tpman on Oct 25, 2012 16:19:31 GMT
It is hot in here or is that just my leg on fire?
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