The relationship b/w Antimony and Kat

[cheddarius]

Hrm. Good point. Well, I guess the point is moot.

[Casey]

Jun 14, 2010 6:51:51 GMT cheddarius said:

Hrm. Good point. Well, I guess the point is moot.

[joephlommin]

I just finished reading the archives sunday and I picked up on the subtext. Tom shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it he should let the reader decide for themselves seeing as many people have thought about it. I wasn't amazed or stopped caring about the story because of this (some of you said that it would). In fact when I read it I was glad that there were lesbians and it wasn't a big part of the story and wasn't waving it around in your face. So even though Tom says no I still say yes.

[warrl]

Jun 12, 2010 4:39:12 GMT Casey said:

Jun 12, 2010 3:58:59 GMT bonestheheretic said:

You say you have a problem with shipping because we shouldn't put our own perceptions onto/into the relationships directly spelled out by the author?

Not exactly. I'm saying that if JK Rowling wanted Harry and Hermione to end up together, then she would have written them that way, and for someone to later say "well I really think Harry should have ended up with Hermione" and then writing fanfiction that reinterprets various scenes from the books that, in their mind, indicate that Harry and Hermione really did like each other in that way, when clearly the author says they didn't, I find that disrespectful to the author and their intent with their own creative work.

To the (unspecified) extent that I might agree with this, I would point out that an explicit "crack pairing" is an entirely different subject.

In the same universe, in case anyone doesn't know, an example "crack pairing" would be a romantic scene between Hermione and Voldemort's snake.

Jun 12, 2010 5:47:27 GMT Afalstein said:

I If Tom is setting up a lesbian romance, he's not tying it in with the plot's themes very well.

I think it's unlikely to be tied in with the plot. Just at some point there'll be a panel or two of kids paired off in a what-ought-to-be-romantic setting - at a dance, perhaps - and some of the pairs won't be hetero.

Aris, just a quick one: if you want to show me evidence that another person holds attitude X (e.g. homophobic), present their statements and actions. Not yours.

[Aris Katsaris]

I think it's unlikely to be tied in with the plot.

Please read the answer by Tom we quoted earlier in the thread: "When this subject comes to the fore (and it will), it will be done only in the interest of plot. Until then, stuff like this is kept in the background, and the careful reader might be able to glean some insight into the characters' lives by what is implied." (Fuller answer here: www.formspring.me/gunnerkrigg/q/385903101 )

So the issue of sexual orientation WILL come eventually to the fore, and it will be done only in the interest of the plot. Though the comic will also never be a platform about "in-depth discussion on sexuality".

Just at some point there'll be a panel or two of kids paired off in a what-ought-to-be-romantic setting - at a dance, perhaps - and some of the pairs won't be hetero.

I find that unlikely. The Gunnerkrigg Court universe seems to be as heteronormative as ours is -- that would mean kids of that age would be unlikely to casually reveal a gay romance to the wider world even if they acknowledged it to themselves.

Aris, just a quick one: if you want to show me evidence that another person holds attitude X (e.g. homophobic), present their statements and actions. Not yours.

warrl, what if I want to show evidence that I've already shown evidence, to address accusations that I haven't? Then by necessity I must present my own statements and actions.

[legion]

Jun 15, 2010 9:02:41 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

warrl, what if I want to show evidence that I've already shown evidence, to address accusations that I haven't? Then by necessity I must present my own statements and actions.

All the evidence you've shown consist of

…

Literaly.

Why do you insist so much that other people are homophobes Aris? Do you have something to hide or compensate for?

…

Are you a closeted homophobe, Aris??!!

[Aris Katsaris]

"All the evidence you've shown consist of"

See, warrl, what I mean by accusations that I haven't shown evidence?

Why do you insist so much that other people are homophobes Aris?

I don't insist that ALL other people are homophobes. I insist that SOME other people are homophobes.
Unless you claim that NO other people are homophobes, you're in agreement with me and the only thing we differ on is the amount of evidence we need to be convinced of such homophobia.

For example, to me, when someone treats people even *noticing* (not wanting, but just *noticing*) a gay subtext in the comic as an implication of possible pedophilia, when he never does the same about explicit straight relationships, that's evidence of homophobia.

To you, it's not. BUT if you say that I've not presented evidence, YOU LIE. You are a lying liar that lies. You're just not convinced by that evidence. But I've presented them. I present them now again. So, legion, don't be a lying liar that lies, and acknowledge that I've presented said evidence.

Are you a closeted homophobe, Aris??!!

If I am, I must be in the closet about it.

[Casey]

I'm sad that no one commented on how amusing my Muut Point cartoon was.

[legion]

It was very funny Casey, but many funny things happen in quick succession in this thread, we have litte time to stop and comment before the next joke is on us.

[Casey]

I'm only kidding anyway.... though a good 20 hours passed before the next comment so phooey on your theory!

[the bandit]

Jun 15, 2010 14:00:40 GMT Casey said:

I'm sad that no one commented on how amusing my Muut Point cartoon was.

I immediately saved it for future use, because it is awesome.

[bakuganbattles96]

Well I don't know i saw gamma kiss zimmy and they looked likethey were in love with each other

[Yin]

They out and out said they love each other. At this point we're taking it for granted that Z&G are lesbians.

[Casey]

Jun 16, 2010 6:53:08 GMT Yin said:

They out and out said they love each other. At this point we're taking it for granted that Z&G are lesbians.

I've always heard lesbianism defined as a sexual attraction. There's nothing to say they are sexually attracted to each other, or to anyone or anything for that matter. There's nothing to say they're -not-, of course.

I think Gamma and Zimmy love and need each other very deeply. I think sisters feel the same way. Doesn't have any bearing on their sexual orientation.

[Aris Katsaris]

I've always heard lesbianism defined as a sexual attraction.

Are you sure you've not heard it defined as a sexual orientation?

[Casey]

That's semantics. My point is that most everyone has a loving relationship with someone of the same gender, and that doesn't make them -sexually- oriented towards that gender. Whether you want to use the phrase sexual attraction or sexual orientation is irrelevant; the point is that you're talking about romantic or sexual attraction or behavior among members of the same sex. Romantic or sexual attraction. Not love, not mutual need, not deep caring... all of which happen between sisters, or friends that are as close as sisters, without there being an element of sexual desire involved.

And again, I'm not saying that Z&G -aren't- lesbians. I'm saying that you can't say they -are-, based just on the fact that they love each other. We have no evidence to support the idea that they are romantically or sexually attracted to each other, or, as I've said, that they've emotionally developed to the point that they have sexual attraction at all. And frankly I think it's always going to be a grey area anyway, subject to interpretation, because I'm pretty sure Tom isnt going to show them kissing romantically or anything else, because they're young teenagers.

[violet]

Jun 16, 2010 7:09:13 GMT Casey said:

I've always heard lesbianism defined as a sexual attraction.

You can have asexual lesbian relationships.

…Actually, after two months, you can't have a sexual lesbian relationships. <rimshot />

(note: this is a lie. and I hate that meme. but it had to be done.)

((note note: the first sentence isn't a lie.))

Jun 16, 2010 14:11:10 GMT Casey said:

Romantic or sexual attraction.

I think their interactions have been pretty clearly romantic. (Though obviously, they aren't drawing from a romantic, proto-sexual script in the same way Janet and Willie are, as it wouldn't make any kind of sense for them. Equally obviously, you can read it however you like. (You can read anything however you like.)).

[Casey]

I agree that different people can interpret things different ways, violet, so, in the interests of anthropological enlightenment, and not in any way because I'm challenging your assertion, I'd be interested to have you link pages where you interpret their interaction as romantic.

[Aris Katsaris]

I don't know about what violet's choice of page will be, but for me the sentiment expressed in 464 "I'd kill everyone in the world and then myself if she wanted it!" is pretty much the epitome of a darkly passionate romance.

Amusingly enough I'd hesitate to call Zimmy and Gamma gay for the exact opposite reasons that others would -- not because I feel the shown relationship between them isn't enough for that but because I feel it's too much. Saying "homosexuality" implies an romantic/sexual orientation towards a whole gender, but Zimmy and Gamma are completely oriented towards each other and each other alone.

[warrl]

Jun 15, 2010 9:18:24 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

"All the evidence you've shown consist of"

See, warrl, what I mean by accusations that I haven't shown evidence?

Ari, it seems that nobody but you has seen you show evidence. All anyone else has seen is you talking about how you have provided evidence.

And yes, I went back and reread the thread up to the point where you were obviously focusing on homophobia. There was nothing to that point to suggest homophobia, except this:

a) there was no objection to discussion of Willy and Janet, a heterosexual couple who obviously ARE forming a romantic attachment, being in a romantic (and potentially, sometime in the future, sexual) relationship

b) there was no objection to discussion of Kat and Aly, a heterosexual couple who obviously DID form at least a romantic infatuation, being in a romantic relationship

c) there was no objection to discussion of Parley and Smith, a heterosexual couple who obviously ARE forming a romantic relationship with strong sexual overtones (befitting their age), being in a romantic relationship

...so obviously heterosexual shipping is okay...

d) there was objection to discussion of Kat and Annie, one of whom has repeatedly and strongly shown heterosexual interest and the other hasn't shown any strong evidence of sexuality at all so far, being shoved into a homosexual relationship that would be seriously inconsistent with their observed behavior

... so obviously there's something wrong with homosexual shipping.

We couldn't possibly object to the forcing of a premature relationship, or to the forcing of a relationship contrary to the expressed nature of one of the individuals. It could only ever have been the homosexual factor.

Totally ignoring...

e) There was no objection to discussion of Gamma and Zimmy, a same-sex couple with a very strong and possibly romantic relationship, being in a romantic (and potentially, sometime in the future, sexual) relationship.

[the bandit]

Jun 16, 2010 14:11:10 GMT Casey said:

I think it's always going to be a grey area anyway, subject to interpretation, because I'm pretty sure Tom isnt going to show them kissing romantically or anything else, because they're young teenagers.

Though he did recently say on Formspring that they were a thing, as opposed to "just really really good friends," so... not sure it's so much of a grey area.

You were just blind to Z&G's relationship status because you're a homophobe.

[xanbcoo]

I think that might be Tom's dry humor going over your head.

[Casey]

Jun 16, 2010 19:24:14 GMT the bandit said:

Jun 16, 2010 14:11:10 GMT Casey said:

I think it's always going to be a grey area anyway, subject to interpretation, because I'm pretty sure Tom isnt going to show them kissing romantically or anything else, because they're young teenagers.

Though he did recently say on Formspring that they were a thing, as opposed to "just really really good friends," so... not sure it's so much of a grey area.

You were just blind to Z&G's relationship status because you're a homophobe.

Clearly!

I know you're joking of course, but all along I've been careful to say that I wasn't saying they -weren't- romantically or even sexually involved, though I really don't want to know about that if it's true (not because they're same sex, but because they're young). I've only ever said that we don't have any evidence that points concretely to that being the only logical interpretation. Case in point:

Jun 16, 2010 17:42:45 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

"I'd kill everyone in the world and then myself if she wanted it!" is pretty much the epitome of a darkly passionate romance.

So... you see desperate co-dependency as being romantic? That's... revealing... (ellipses of pseudo-horror!)

I'm just joking with you Aris. You in fact go on to make the same point:

Amusingly enough I'd hesitate to call Zimmy and Gamma gay for the exact opposite reasons that others would -- not because I feel the shown relationship between them isn't enough for that but because I feel it's too much. Saying "homosexuality" implies an romantic/sexual orientation towards a whole gender, but Zimmy and Gamma are completely oriented towards each other and each other alone.

I agree. Zimmy and Gamma's relationship involves love, but in my opinion it's not a healthy love. It's a desperate need. It's a literal co-dependence that many would say is not love at all. Their co-dependence reveals nothing about whether either of them sexually or even romantically prefer girls in general or boys in general.

[Casey]

Jun 16, 2010 20:49:56 GMT xanbcoo said:

Jun 16, 2010 19:24:14 GMT the bandit said:

He did recently say on Formspring that they were a thing

I think that might be Tom's dry humor going over your head.

Indeed, it may be that Tom was telling us that Zimmy and Gamma are one entity occupying two physical bodies... that they are. literally, a thing.

Compared with speculation generated from recent pages, this theory is relatively very tame...

[todd]

I remember speculating (before Chapter Eleven came out) that Zimmy was an outlet for Gamma's more abrasive character traits. (Kind of like the Ventriloquist in "Batman: TAS" - for those who haven't seen him, he was a meek little man who expressed his darker instincts through a ventriloquist's dummy of a gangster, in a way that suggested multiple personality.)

Speaking of ambiguous same-sex attractions in fiction, I don't know if anyone here saw the "Gargoyles" comic book series from a year or two ago (though I wouldn't be surprised if Aris has, because I know he's familiar with the television series it was based on), but in it, Lexington (who, according to interviews with the creator of the series, is gay) makes friends with a male gargoyle from London named Amp, and many of the readers were speculating on whether they'd become a couple. (The story neither confirmed nor denied that speculation.)

[Aris Katsaris]

Indeed, it may be that Tom was telling us that Zimmy and Gamma are one entity occupying two physical bodies... that they are. literally, a thing.

I have to note though that when Tom said that John and Margot are an "item", nobody argued that it might mean something other than a young romantic coupling. :-)

I agree. Zimmy and Gamma's relationship involves love, but in my opinion it's not a healthy love. It's a desperate need. It's a literal co-dependence that many would say is not love at all.

That wasn't quite my point. That it's an unhealthy romance doesn't mean that it's not a romance. That it's an unhealthy passion doesn't mean that it's not a passion.

My only lingering hesitation about calling them gay is that the fact that, because of their special circumstances, the fact these two are romantically/physically linked to a *specific* girl doesn't mean they're romantically/physically oriented towards girls in general.

[the bandit]

Jun 16, 2010 20:49:56 GMT xanbcoo said:

I think that might be Tom's dry humor going over your head.

"My hair is unruffled, if that's what you mean."

[violet]

Jun 16, 2010 16:31:10 GMT Casey said:

I agree that different people can interpret things different ways, violet, so, in the interests of anthropological enlightenment, and not in any way because I'm challenging your assertion, I'd be interested to have you link pages where you interpret their interaction as romantic.

Mostly this bit, actually, particularly in light of this one.

Jun 16, 2010 17:42:45 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

Saying "homosexuality" implies an romantic/sexual orientation towards a whole gender, but Zimmy and Gamma are completely oriented towards each other and each other alone.

They probably haven't thought about it much.

Jun 16, 2010 20:54:17 GMT Casey said:

I agree. Zimmy and Gamma's relationship involves love, but in my opinion it's not a healthy love. It's a desperate need. It's a literal co-dependence that many would say is not love at all.

I think there's real love there, based on how they think to and think about each other. I mean, Gamma is drawn to Zimmy for some reason. It's not really unreasonable to argue that their love for each other is why their etheric link is so strong (or even that it is that link).

You seem to be suggesting we read their relationship as kin to addiction, which doesn't seem especially parsimonious with respect to the text, particularly Dobnaroc, Gamma. Their relationship's not the healthiest, but then, very few fictional romances are. (Romeo and Juliet, the archetypal romantic couple, are fifteen year olds who have sex, fall in love, have tortured angst, and kill themselves in despair for the loss of their love-that-can-never-be within a week of meeting each other. Now that's codependence.)

Their co-dependence reveals nothing about whether either of them sexually or even romantically prefer girls in general or boys in general.

Nobody's saying, “y'know, Gamma really strikes me as a big ol' dyke.”

[violet]

Anyway, after today's page, we should all totally be slashing Annie/Gamma.

[dawngazer]

I wonder if Tom ever gets a kick out of reading our verbal vomit.