The relationship b/w Antimony and Kat

[drakebloodiv]

But at the same time some exploration and clarification of the relationship between the two would be a positive thing, so long as it didn't detract from the story. Having the characters get sidetracked on something like that would in fact be both pointless and illogical, but expressing elements of it in the story would only add to it. Take what we're seeing now between Gamma and Zimmy. The entirety of todays comic was filled with background material about Gamma and Zimmy, and showed us a lot about the deeply loving (though semi-obsessive) relationship Gamma has with Zimmy. At the same time, it advanced the plot through showing us Annies growing exhaustion. Also, the fact that we now know more about their emotions might be relevant later (ker-chekov!) in putting into play a character action which would otherwise be strange.

Put in short, as long as it is made into an element of the plot, rather than becoming the plot, relationships are a good thing.

[Casey]

I would say that Tom's done exactly that, with the part about Mort and the blinker stone in Blinking, and the part where Rey teases Annie about a boy catching her eye in Jupiter Moon Martians. I would even say that Tom has made the subtle exploration of Annie's personality one of the ongoing stories of the comic. But it's never more of the focus than it should be. In that sense I think he's playing it just right. He's not treating his characters like robots, and not treating them like hormone-saturated crazies either.

[warrl]

Jun 8, 2010 3:52:05 GMT Casey said:

He's not treating his characters like robots, and not treating them like hormone-saturated crazies either.

I could see Kat becoming a hormone-saturated crazy.

For about a week.

(I'd say two weeks if it weren't for that week with Aly.)

[Necropaxx]

I'd just like to say real quick that even though Antimony said to Reynardine that sort of thing was of no interest to her, it doesn't mean she's sworn off all relationships. It just means she isn't interested in boys right now. I wasn't really interested in girls when I was her age either. Antimony isn't necessarily asexual, just not interested yet. However, don't let me be misunderstood. One of the things I really enjoy about GC is that it isn't just about "taking cute guys to the prom." It would get old pretty fast - for me at least.

[Aris Katsaris]

So if you get a bunch of people decrying the same kind of shift in GC, it isn't (necessarily) because they are homophobes. ,

Agreed, if we took it by itself - but I also see how *differently* (with much greater acceptance) depicted straight young relationships are treated by the very same people. So I don't think that the strong reactions against even *hinting* at gayness comes from this dislike of "sexualization" (or shipping) in general. As I said nobody minded when Kat kissed Ally.

Now, *Tom's* dislike of shipping/romancing/sexualization is much more consistent across sexual orientation lines. Yes, he kinda mocks people who ship Annie/Kat, but he also kinda mocked people who shipped Jack/Zimmie. And he kinda bashed pervs interested in either variety (references to people wanting to see Annie screwed by Kat/Reynardine).

But for many readers, it seems to me that it's the gayness of such a relationship that'd fill them with horror, not the relationship by itself.

I think it would be more likely one-sided then mutual, though I'm not sure why.

Yeah, those my thoughts also. I find it very possible that Annie would feel attracted to Kat, but as Kat is consistently boy-crazy, it wouldn't be mutual.

[afterall]

Long time reader of GC, but I signed up pretty much just to reply to this. Hope this does not count as being a jerk, but I have some really strong feelings about this subject.

I don't ship Annie/Kat. I like both as individuals, I like their friendship, but I really don't care if they fall in love. It seems like too simple and stable of a friendship to have complicated things like repressed attractions hidden in the background. I also don't care that Anja assumed that if Annie liked someone, it would be with a boy-- even if Annie WAS attracted to women, Annie is young enough that Anja probably wouldn't even acknowledge the possibility she could be gay or bi.

I'm also queer myself. Bisexual, but pretty damn close to lesbian. Why is this relevant? Because if I have a very close relationship with another girl, it's not unlikely that it IS romantic in nature. Not always-- I do have close female friends, and I think it's really important to show friendships between girls in fiction-- but it happens.

I don't think Annie and Kat are more than friends. If they were a girl and a boy, I still wouldn't think they were more than friends. I do ship Zimmy and Gamma. I'd still probably ship them if they were a boy/girl pair. But the difference is, if Annie or Kat was a boy, speculating over Annie/Kat would be seen as a lot more "legitimate". It wouldn't be seen as something that's just for loser fanboys or deluded gay activists who want to make everyone gay. If Zimmy or Gamma was a boy, instead of everyone assuming they had some kind of platonic codependency thing, people would take lines like "I love you, Zimmy" and "I'd kill everyone in the whole world and then myself if that's what [Gamma] wanted" (or something like that) as "They're probably in love with each other." We've gotten less from Smith and Parley, and everyone pretty much takes it as a given that their love is totes canon. (Not that I don't like Smith/Parley, or that I believe it's been proven conclusively that the Zimmy/Gamma dynamic is a romantic one! I'm simply talking about the way GKC fans view the characters' potential relationships.)

But the way that these pairings are, with both participants being girls, it's not "legitimate" to speculate on the nature of their relationship, or even to think they'd make a pretty awesome couple. Never mind that Annie, Zimmy, and Gamma have never been shown to have opposite-sex attractions. Never mind that Kat's attraction to boys (especially combined with her young age) does not at all mean she could never be attracted to a girl. Apparently, everyone who's not busy viewing the world through gaydar thinks it's a lot more probable for any of these girls to end up with Jack. Who pretty much all of them have a reason to dislike. But hey, he's male. And GKC isn't about queer issues, therefore of course the major characters all have to be straight. Nevermind that gay people do a lot of things that have nothing to do with being gay. Like right now, I'm learning how to program, not learning how to ~*~gay program~*~ (using Visual Gay-sic!). I had lunch today, not ~*~gay lunch~*~. I thought about adopting a dog today. It wasn't a special kind of dog only available to the queer folks among us. It is absolutely possible for a non-straight character to go on adventures and have an awesome storyline that has nothing to do with their sexuality. GKC may or may not have any major gay characters, and that's honestly up to Tom, but the fact that it's not at a pride parade and they're not spending all their time talking about sexual orientation has no bearing on the sexuality of any of the characters. You can be gay without having your life be a LOGO made for tv movie. Really.

I probably sound like a bitter homosexual. And maybe I sort of am, but you know what? My attractions to women are legitimate. My relationships with women are legitimate. And I wish the people here would seem to get that. :/

[Yin]

D8

Look, they're twelve going on thirteen. Can we just skip all the debate about their sexualities until they're older... or before Tom locks this thread again?

[Aris Katsaris]

Yin, once again: their age never seems to be an issue when straight relationships in the comic are seen, discussed, mentioned or speculated, so please don't use their age as an excuse to oppose such speculation. Don't use Tom's potential locking of threads either: In my experience he locks threads only when people are being asses to each other, not when they speculate.

What's the point of not participating in a thread for fear it will get locked, anyway?

Welcome to the boards, afterall. I agree with everything you said.

[Necropaxx]

Jun 8, 2010 9:22:35 GMT Yin said:

D8

Look, they're twelve going on thirteen. Can we just skip all the debate about their sexualities until they're older... or before Tom locks this thread again?

Seconded! Also, are Annie and Kat still 12? I was under the impression that they were at least 13, possibly 14. But I don't really know. Does anyone here know?

[Aris Katsaris]

Can we just skip all the debate about their sexualities until they're older...

The kids have already reached the age where sexuality starts mattering: Proven by the fact that many (most? ) of the kids we've seen have already started forming pairings and showing romantic attraction.

Annie is an exception to that - but only an exception.

[todd]

Jun 8, 2010 3:17:12 GMT Casey said:

JK Rowling started off writing a book about students in a magical place, and slowly started making the books more about the relationships between the students. People can decide for themselves whether that was a good or a bad thing, but in either case, it can't be denied that it changed the tenor of the series.

I've sometimes wondered what changed the tone of the series more - the shift you mentioned above towards the students' love lifes, or the darker atmosphere once Voldemort returned and the wizarding world became increasingly beset - until in the final book, he's conquered it and turned it into a nightmare world with all the humorous whimsy that had marked the earlier books gone.

[Casey]

Jun 8, 2010 10:16:41 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

The kids have already reached the age where sexuality starts mattering: Proven by the fact that many (most? ) of the kids we've seen have already started forming pairings and showing romantic attraction.

TOPIC:

Romantic attraction is or is not related to sexual attraction.

DISCUSS.

[violet]

Jun 8, 2010 13:35:29 GMT Casey said:

Romantic attraction is or is not related to sexual attraction.

Obviously, they're related, but not necessary paired phenomena. You can feel romantically towards someone you don't want to bone, and vice-versa.

Unless you're gay. Gay romance implies and necessitates sexuality because mumblecoughmumble. So talking about young kids playing with straight romance is cute, but talking about them playing with gay romance edges on pedophilia.

(There's an interesting potential sidebar here on how homophobia has largely subsumed romantic friendships into assumed-sexual relationships, particularly for men (as masculinity is not what one would call particularly flexible).)

[violet]

Jun 8, 2010 3:17:12 GMT Casey said:

I have to take issue with that though, because it's equally legitimate that someone might be "horrified" at the idea of sexualizing the main characters in ANY way, because to do so would shift the focus of the comic away from the story and onto the personal love lives of the characters.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I didn't really see this response in A Week for Kat. Which explicitly was that.

And this brings me back around to Tom's quote, which basically says that the comic is never going to be about them finding cute boys to take them to the prom.

And, you know, thank god(dess)(es) for that.

(Aside: this is part of why I'm lukewarm towards Jack (as a character—he's certainly not invited to any of my dinner parties). I can see the whole arc: the infuriating and murderous knave taunts and ducks and spars with the protagonist, always getting the better of her just slightly until she gives in and makes out with him. At some point in there, we learned (through the alchemy of fangirls wishing furiously) that he has a heart of gold. And Kat, Annie, and their relationship gets lost in the kerfuffle. I know it's not going to happen, I know Tom's better than that, but it still puts me kindof on edge. I can feel it. That plotline sits. Lurks. Maybe sits some more. Probably has some tea. Maybe a toddy, the jerk.)

Jun 8, 2010 8:44:44 GMT afterall said:

Like right now, I'm learning how to program, not learning how to ~*~gay program~*~ (using Visual Gay-sic!).

I recommend upgrading to Lesbian Eclipse. It supports far more processing.

[bluemotion]

I'm totally a Mort/Smitty shipper, bi the way.

[the bandit]

Jun 8, 2010 8:28:38 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

As I said nobody minded when Kat kissed Ally.

When Kat kissed Aly, who was a bird, and not even on the beak, so it was the humanoid equivalent of a peck on the forehead? That's your paragon of how the homophobes don't mind when the characters get down and dirty, as long as it's heterosexually? Seriously?

- - -

I can't make any further comment because this already might be seen as breaking my word that I was butting out of this thread. But since I'm in violation already it does give me a chance to say that I'm quite grieved to see such bitterness amongst several posters, which is a reflection of past personal hurt; if there was anything I could do to assuage that hurt, I would, but I'm only linked to you through this forum. The best I can do is a lame reminder of what you already know, that you're not truly free to live your life how you want when you let others' perceptions and past treatment rule your emotions like that. Easier said than remedied, I know. But don't let it eat away at you like this, please, for your sake.

[Aris Katsaris]

When Kat kissed Aly, who was a bird, and not even on the beak, so it was the humanoid equivalent of a peck on the forehead? That's your paragon of how the homophobes don't mind when the characters get down and dirty, as long as it's heterosexually? Seriously?

Down and dirty? I never considered what she did "dirty". Nobody considered it dirty, which is my point.

The kiss wasn't a "paragon", it was a reference point I used to remind people of that whole storyline (I rarely memorize titles or numbers of chapters, I memorize events). Are you DENYING that whole chapter was about a young heterosexual romance? Are you denying that Janet and Willie are implied to be having secret make-out sessions?

If you indeed deny that, then that means the Annie/Kat shippers have even fewer arguments against them, mate, as it means Kat has not shown any romantic interest towards boys anymore than Annie has.

Kat was involved in a romantic hetero storyline which NOBODY here (to my knowledge) objected to.

Btw, if that storyline isn't enough "down and dirty" for you, I could also use as an example the page where Kat shows extreme interest in a shirtless man (Skinner from X-Files) in her dreams. That's even more obviously sexual. Anyone objected to *that*?

What if Kat was instead saying "Will Skully be in a bikini? Yay!" instead of "Will Skinner be shirtless? Yay!" Do you think that the homophobes wouldn't suddenly be objecting to that, calling Kat too young to show excitement about near-nakedness of stars?

But since I'm in violation already it does give me a chance to say that I'm quite grieved to see such bitterness amongst several posters, which is a reflection of past personal hurt;

True, I'm likewise grieved to see such bitterness against the very concept of gay relationships.

[the bandit]

Yeah, I knew I was stepping in it, and here I am again. Sometimes I'm a fool despite knowing better. If you don't hear from me again in this thread, it's because I finally improved my self-restraint.

No, I would not have considered "A Week for Kat" any more age inappropriate, handled the way it was, had Aly been short for Alyson. I can't imagine how Mulder can be considered sexy by girls, but Skinner? Sure. And Janet & Willie's relationship would actually work fine if they were James & Willie. What the homophobes would do, I can't say. If they got angry, I'd reply to them the same as I did to people who got offended that Anja assumed it would have been a boy to have given the blinker stone: calm down, nothing unreasonable happened.

I differentiate romantic interest and sexual interest (though the latter is most typically a subset of the former), with the dividing line most visible during childhood innocence. The romance depicted in "A Week for Kat" was highly innocent, and would be regardless of Aly's gender. Which means I do agree that "A Week for Kat" does not bar Kat for developing a different orientation. So, please, stop assuming that everyone who doesn't see Kat and Annie as a possibility does so because of homophobic tendency; some of us just don't think it's a fair representation of the author's spoken and depicted intent.

I view it by the same jaundiced eye with which I suffer Annie and Reynardine shipping, myself.

[Casey]

Jun 8, 2010 18:32:03 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

Are you DENYING that whole chapter was about a young heterosexual romance?

Heck, I'll deny that. The chapter was about the bloom of love, but had nothing to do with sex... hence my question about whether romance and sexual attraction are linked. I think there's a huge difference between the innocent puppy-love that kids (kids!) of this age experience, and the sexual attraction of older kids who might want to actually have sex with each other. The lockstep that people claim between love and sex is exactly what got Sam and Frodo in such a clamor. Likewise I don't think that Kat wanted to have sex with Aly (or anyone else), and I don't think Willie and Janet want to have sex either. Parley and Smitty are a different matter though.

But since I'm in violation already it does give me a chance to say that I'm quite grieved to see such bitterness amongst several posters, which is a reflection of past personal hurt;

True, I'm likewise grieved to see such bitterness against the very concept of gay relationships.

That's not a fair response, you know that isn't what he was referring to. Who here is bitter about gay relationships? He was referring to the bitterness of some gay people for what appears to them to be marginalizing their normalcy in the media. That's a concept that I respect, but that I think is largely mislaid in the context of a comic strip about prepubescent teens. If anyone is narrow-minded enough to think that that makes -me- homophobic, then I pity them.

Edit: I see now that Bandit largely said the same thing in his response... I shoulda read it before posting.

[todd]

Jun 8, 2010 15:17:17 GMT violet said:

(Aside: this is part of why I'm lukewarm towards Jack (as a character—he's certainly not invited to any of my dinner parties). I can see the whole arc: the infuriating and murderous knave taunts and ducks and spars with the protagonist, always getting the better of her just slightly until she gives in and makes out with him. At some point in there, we learned (through the alchemy of fangirls wishing furiously) that he has a heart of gold. And Kat, Annie, and their relationship gets lost in the kerfuffle. I know it's not going to happen, I know Tom's better than that, but it still puts me kindof on edge. I can feel it. That plotline sits. Lurks. Maybe sits some more. Probably has some tea. Maybe a toddy, the jerk.)

I hope that Tom isn't going to give Annie and Jack a relationship as well - for one thing, I wouldn't want to see Annie turn out to have poor enough taste to fall for a "bad boy" (even though Jack only fell into that category after he was possessed and isn't likely to remain in it if he ever gets cured).

(Not to mention that Annie and Jack did not even pay any attention to each other before the "nightmare city" incident.)

[todd]

Jun 8, 2010 20:41:10 GMT Casey said:

the context of a comic strip about prepubescent teens.

Side issue, but "prepubescent" and "teens" sound mutually exclusive to me; "prepubescent" is what you are before becoming a teenager.

[cheddarius]

I think they're different. Teens = 10-19 years old, prepubescent = before puberty. So, there's plenty of time for you to be a prepubescent teens.

[Aris Katsaris]

I differentiate romantic interest and sexual interest (though the latter is most typically a subset of the former), with the dividing line most visible during childhood innocence.

I also differentiate among them, but I'd say that it's romantic interest which is most typically a subset of sexual interest. The average person will feel sexual attraction a hundred or a thousand times more often than he feels romantic attraction. Since romantic attraction is about nesting, while sexual attraction is about pleasure (and biologically breeding).

Are you DENYING that whole chapter was about a young heterosexual romance?

Heck, I'll deny that. The chapter was about the bloom of love, but had nothing to do with sex...

I asked if it had to do with heterosexual *romance*, I didn't ask if it had to do about heterosexual *sex*. So how does the fact it didn't have anything to do with sex deny my sentence?

hence my question about whether romance and sexual attraction are linked.

They're related, though obviously they're not identical. However heterosexuality and homosexuality isn't just about sexual attraction, it's about romantic attraction as well. That's why some people prefer the term " (or romantic orientation) instead of "sexual orientation".

He was referring to the bitterness of some gay people for what appears to them to be marginalizing their normalcy in the media.

But since he seemed to be using my bitterness as one of his starting points, he rather missed his mark, since I'm straight.

[todd]

Jun 8, 2010 23:55:34 GMT cheddarius said:

I think they're different. Teens = 10-19 years old, prepubescent = before puberty. So, there's plenty of time for you to be a prepubescent teens.

I always thought of teens beginning at 13 rather than 10.

[Necropaxx]

Jun 8, 2010 17:12:03 GMT bluemotion said:

I'm totally a Mort/Smitty shipper, bi the way.

What about the Ysengrin shippers? Don't they get any love?

[Casey]

Jun 9, 2010 0:03:45 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

Heck, I'll deny that. The chapter was about the bloom of love, but had nothing to do with sex...

I asked if it had to do with heterosexual *romance*, I didn't ask if it had to do about heterosexual *sex*. So how does the fact it didn't have anything to do with sex deny my sentence?

OK I follow that, but what I'm saying is that saying "heterosexual" you're talking about someone's sexual orientation, which I don't think is even a factor before someone hits puberty, whereas even little kids have "girlfriends" and "boyfriends" without a thought towards actual procreation. Thus, "heterosexual romance" is a bit of a misnomer, as the latter word implies emotion (which can be innocent) but the former word implies physical action (which is decidedly not innocent).

They're related, though obviously they're not identical. However heterosexuality and homosexuality isn't just about sexual attraction, it's about romantic attraction as well.

I agree that talking about sex implies romance. I disagree that the converse follows: Talking about romance does NOT necessarily imply sex.

He was referring to the bitterness of some gay people for what appears to them to be marginalizing their normalcy in the media.

But since he seemed to be using my bitterness as one of his starting points, he rather missed his mark, since I'm straight.

Except I don't think he was referring to you? I could be wrong though.

[cheddarius]

Jun 9, 2010 0:03:45 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

The average person will feel sexual attraction a hundred or a thousand times more often than he feels romantic attraction. Since romantic attraction is about nesting, while sexual attraction is about pleasure (and biologically breeding).

[citation needed]

[cheddarius]

Teens are, I think, when you have a ten and then a number. There are various definitions, probably. Anyway, I think in some cases you can start puberty late? But that's kind of besides the point anyway, because, well, they're teens, we know that for sure. And puberty... well, any signs of puberty they're showing, I would really, really rather not know about.



All right, these are the arguments, I think, as far as I can see.
Aris Katsaris: Aris believes that there are homophobes on the forum. He believes this because of the strong reaction against a Kat/Annie relationship. He believes that while people were fine with Kat/Ally, they disliked a possible Kat/Annie, and threads that pop up mentioning Kat/Annie now. This seems to be true. However, it does not follow that it is because it is homophobic. It would, of course, be silly to say "People dislike Jason from Foxtrot x Kratos from God of War; they must be homophobic". There could be many other reasons, for example, that Annie and Kat are the main characters and it'd make the comic very different, that Tom has said it isn't happening (in the case of the threads), etc. This is called an argument from ignorance; merely because you do not see non-homophobic reasons why people dislike Annie/Kat does not mean that there are none. It is generally good to assume good faith. You must show conclusively that people dislike Annie/Kat solely on the base of homophobia, which would be, I think, pretty difficult. There's no relationship exactly like theirs but heterosexual, since they're the only main characters and both very unique in many ways. Still, if you were to find a response to a Kat/Annie comic saying "That's so gay" or something, that would be devastating. Devastating to the counterargument, of course; but also devastating because it would be very sad to see such homophobia in such a great work.
In any case, given GKC's fanbase, I do think it is likely that there are some homophobes in it, just as there are probably some people who collect soap, some people who were born on Cinco de Mayo, etc.
Aris, do you feel I summarized your arguments and responded to them well?

Casey: Casey's arguments are mostly responses to Aris's. It's difficult to discern his position from a quick glance, but it seems to be that there are no or very few people on the boards/comments that dislike Kat/Annie because of homophobia. Again, my (admittedly poor) instincts say that this is statistically unlikely, but of course I'm not sure what the homophobia rate is. Casey's arguments are diverse, being responses, so I'm not sure how to summarize them. But generally they say things about how Kat/Annie is different in other ways than being homosexual.
Casey, do you feel I summarized your arguments and responded to them well?



I conclude that there are probably some homophobes who read GKC, but there are probably not very many who post on the board/comments, fewer still who dislike Annie/Kat because of homophobia, and almost certainly none who have publicly stated this.

[drakebloodiv]

Jun 8, 2010 8:28:38 GMT Aris Katsaris said:

Yeah, those my thoughts also. I find it very possible that Annie would feel attracted to Kat, but as Kat is consistently boy-crazy, it wouldn't be mutual.

Ironically I've thought the exact opposite, just because Kat is a lot more flirtatious both in general and towards Annie. She started that whole 'Main Babe' thing in Residential, and she generally says things much more flirtily (is that a word?) than Annie. Of course, she may be that way with everyone, but it doesn't seem like it.

[avurai]

After reading through these 4 pages of debate, I have come up with two things to say.

It’s just a comic.

How about we wait for the comic to be over, see what’ll happen, then we can all call it a day? There might even be a definitive answer to all our questions involving this issue, by then. Sound like a nice plan, everyone?