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Post by penguinfactory on Jun 3, 2010 9:04:03 GMT
I really don't get why this keeps coming up. When I first read the comic the idea that Annie Kat were anything more than friends never occured to me.
It's not like I have anything against the idea of an Annie/Kat relationship, I just don't see where people are getting all of this supposed "subtext" from.
Well, look at this way: if one of your friends was stuck at the bottom of a gorge (or in some other life threatening scenario) and you swooped down and rescued him/her, would your first reaction be to say "hey, does this mean we're in love?"
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Post by todd on Jun 3, 2010 13:03:30 GMT
I'll be amazed if we ever see Annie in a romantic relationship with anybody.
(And I certainly don't think that she'll be paired up with Jack. So far, all of the attention she's paid to him has been due to the weird things going on with him - she didn't even give him a glance before discovering that he'd been pulled into Zimmy's nightmare city. Their interactions don't show much promise, unless they're a set-up for a "good girl drawn to bad boy" scenario, and I think - and hope - that Annie has far more sense than that. Not to mention that if Jack gets cured - which is a big if - he's likely to be too burdened with guilt over all the things he did under that spider's influence for a long time - unless Tom takes the easy way out and has him forget everything that happened since Chapter Nineteen.)
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amanmademonster
Junior Member
That's not a nice thing to say about a nun
Posts: 57
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Post by amanmademonster on Jun 4, 2010 7:43:10 GMT
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Post by bluemotion on Jun 4, 2010 15:27:23 GMT
That...I...wha...t I laughed, I admit it. |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 4, 2010 17:19:28 GMT
I don't actually think there's a chance they'll get together. Some of the stuff they've done could just be interpreted as subtext in that direction. But it's definitely not that way. I just think it would be cute if it was. hee hee. I love scrubs. |
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Post by strangethoughts on Jun 4, 2010 20:05:33 GMT
Ive read the comic archives 5 times now I still don't see the Annie Kat subtext. I mean Annie is pretty much asexual. She doesn't seem interested in any kind of relationship beyond friendship.
I see more subtext in how Rey feels about Annie, but from all we've learned about how he felt about Surma that is not surprising.
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 4, 2010 21:34:16 GMT
Ive read the comic archives 5 times now I still don't see the Annie Kat subtext. I mean Annie is pretty much asexual. She doesn't seem interested in any kind of relationship beyond friendship. I see more subtext in how Rey feels about Annie, but from all we've learned about how he felt about Surma that is not surprising. Most of it is supposed to be interpreted as just two good friends. But deep "friend" conversations can also be interpreted as something a little more, if you want to see it that way. Annie is pretty much asexual, and Kat is most definitely straight*. But for people who want to read a little more than that, I think there's bits here and there that could suggest something else. I mean, that's why this keeps coming up. *There are people who say that just because Kat has shown interest in boys doesn't make her straight...but from a literary standpoint, it wouldn't make sense for her to show interest in boys and then suddenly be gay (unless that was a major part of the story). |
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Post by the bandit on Jun 4, 2010 22:08:51 GMT
I mean, that's why this keeps coming up. Actually, this sort of thing keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting homosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying homosexual characters as well. If potential homosexuality is not expressly admitted, such as when Anja asked Annie what boy gave her the blinkerstone, then people become angry because they feel the minority orientation has somehow been slighted. *But you are also right in that it also keeps coming up because modern Western culture is so sexually-centric that it defines us, with asexuality considered an impossible aberration (even for kids); Annie's asexuality can only be explained by that worldview as an attempt to hide a less-than-mainstream orientation. And then there's just a lot of wishful thinking. And also perverts. |
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:09:23 GMT
On a hopefully somewhat related note (and mind you, I refrained until now from posting in this thread, to be sure that it wasn't going to turn into the face-palm-fest (Hi Bandit!) that threads of this topic usually become), I have never seen any sexual subtext to the relationship between Frodo and Sam... but lesser minded people couldn't get beyond that when watching the movies. Sam and Frodo were IMO much closer friends than Annie and Kat, and even there, I grok how they can be that close without being romantically "in love" or some BS like that. I mean, they had a ring to destroy for pity's sake! What's love got to do with it?
(As an amused aside, Firefox's built-in spell checker balks at "Frodo", but apparently is perfectly okay with "grok" as an English word...)
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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2010 22:30:34 GMT
Sam and Frodo were IMO much closer friends than Annie and Kat Side-note: I was amused at your bringing Frodo and Sam up, since I once drew a "Gunnerkrigg Court" fan-pic (I no longer have it available, alas - I switched computers since that time) which depicted Annie and Kat as Frodo and Sam respectively (and, incidentally, gave Reynardine in his doll-form the Gollum role). I do think that they have a slight echo (though I don't think an imitative one); Annie the more thoughtful and solemn of the two, like Frodo (I've even noted that some readers have compared the cut she received from Jeanne to Frodo's Morgul-knife wound) and Kat more cheerful, down-to-earth, practical, like Sam. (I showed the picture to Tom, incidentally, who was delighted with it.) |
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:37:32 GMT
Ahgh, what a shame the picture is lost! I would have liked to have seen it.
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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2010 22:43:18 GMT
Yes; I tried uploading it once to the fan art thread, but wasn't able to do so.
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Post by dawngazer on Jun 4, 2010 22:44:13 GMT
I mean, that's why this keeps coming up. Actually, this sort of thing keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting homosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying homosexual characters as well. If potential homosexuality is not expressly admitted, such as when Anja asked Annie what boy gave her the blinkerstone, then people become angry because they feel the minority orientation has somehow been slighted. *But you are also right in that it also keeps coming up because modern Western culture is so sexually-centric that it defines us, with asexuality considered an impossible aberration (even for kids); Annie's asexuality can only be explained by that worldview as an attempt to hide a less-than-mainstream orientation. And then there's just a lot of wishful thinking. And also perverts. That actually tends to be my line of understanding regarding a wide variety of character interaction and perception issues. I don't know Tom, but I think he might be appreciative if us (the fanbase) appreciated the characters more than possible -or perceived- pairings. By all means speculate, I'm sure Tom loves it, but I think...Impressing, for lack of better term, our own sexual views and thoughts on the characters Tom spends loving time to make bordering almost on insulting. |
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 22:51:57 GMT
Actually, this sort of thing keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting homosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying homosexual characters as well. I think it's more that this sort of thing also keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting heterosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying heterosexual characters as well. |
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Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 0:01:36 GMT
Actually, this sort of thing keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting homosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying homosexual characters as well. I think it's more that this sort of thing also keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting heterosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying heterosexual characters as well. [touchiness detected, engaging counter-measures] Pro-tip: mirroring a text while replacing all instances of "homosexual(ity)" in it with "heterosexual(ity)" doesn't actually produce meaningful content nor an insightfull persepective shift; it only makes you sound like a bitter gay activist/sociologist. |
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Post by Casey on Jun 5, 2010 1:23:42 GMT
That was your counter-measures?? I'd hate to see your counter-attack...
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Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 1:52:18 GMT
I am actually really bad at fighting.
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Post by strangethoughts on Jun 5, 2010 1:57:24 GMT
On a hopefully somewhat related note (and mind you, I refrained until now from posting in this thread, to be sure that it wasn't going to turn into the face-palm-fest (Hi Bandit!) that threads of this topic usually become), I have never seen any sexual subtext to the relationship between Frodo and Sam... but lesser minded people couldn't get beyond that when watching the movies. Sam and Frodo were IMO much closer friends than Annie and Kat, and even there, I grok how they can be that close without being romantically "in love" or some BS like that. I mean, they had a ring to destroy for pity's sake! What's love got to do with it? See this is interesting because I actually SAW the subtext with frodo and sam. Generally I can see what other people are seeing and while I won't always agree that it's as blatant as they think I can usually nod in agreement to some of their examples. Which is why annie and kat is so very weird to me. I don't see anything at all beyond a close friendship. It's just not there. |
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Jun 5, 2010 2:05:18 GMT
I think it's more that this sort of thing also keeps coming up (not just here but in any story) because people are so insistent upon putting heterosexuality forward as mainstream that it simply must be an option for any pairing, much to the detriment of artists' ability to portray deepness within a platonic relationship, even if said artist is completely open to portraying heterosexual characters as well. [touchiness detected, engaging counter-measures] Pro-tip: mirroring a text while replacing all instances of "homosexual(ity)" in it with "heterosexual(ity)" doesn't actually produce meaningful content nor an insightfull persepective shift; it only makes you sound like a bitter gay activist/sociologist. As a member of the LGBTQ community, IAWTAC |
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on Jun 5, 2010 8:19:02 GMT
As a bisexual, I tend to agree as well. To be fair, it /can/ produce meaningful content or an insightful perspective shift. It's just really hard to do and it usually requires separate arguments.
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Post by drakebloodiv on Jun 5, 2010 9:35:39 GMT
Personally, I think that there is very clearly a deep relationship between Kat and Annie, but the debate there is weather or not it is platonic or not. I think it's kind of rude for people to assume they know author intent in this, there has never been decisive evidence in either direction.
Lets compile the facts we know:
First of, Kat
1.) Is much more open with her sexuality, even going as far as to describe characters as 'cute' or 'sexy'
2.) Is attracted to men, though not necessarily in exclusivity
3.) Is much more open to the rest of the school than Annie
4.) Has a bird fetish, which might be seen as strange
5.) Is open about that strange fetish, at least to Annie
And Annie
1.) Is very emotionally closed, even with Kat, though she tries not to be
2.) Is often shy or apathetic towards students other than Kat
3.) Responded negatively to advances from Reynardine (although those may have been rude or joking in the first place)
From these, it is possible to postulate in either direction. The fact that Kat is so open about her sexuality, even the strange bits like bird fetishism, to Annie could mean that Kat is honest with all of her sexuality. From there one would think that Kat thinks of Annie as a reliable source of advice and a friend to be honest with.
On the other hand, Kats talks with Annie about her romantic opinions could be seen as a sort of transitional phase between a platonic friendship and Kat coming out and admitting romantic love for Annie. In that case, her talk of romance with Annie could be both an attempt to move Annie towards seeing her as a romantic being, and a way of 'testing the waters' for Annies reaction to sexual attractions of a more strange variety (in this case, the bird fettishism would be that test). We don't know how the Court generally treats lesbians, nor how any would react to one, so this is a valid theory.
As for Antimony, she generally keeps her emotions well tucked away. When interacting with others she usually keeps her facial expression is almost always in the neutral to slightly frowny range, but around Kat she is much more smiley. She maintains a shy smile and even brakes out into a full grin when interacting with Kat. Kat, meanwhile, smiles around everyone, but she positively beams when hanging around with Annie.
All that wall of text said, here's my (completely speculative and probably totally wrong) theory:
Kat, though emotionally extroverted, feels in desperate need of attention, magnified by the fact that the other students tend to dislike her. Her loving home environment is undermined by the fact that her parents are teachers, which isolates her from the rest of the students. She strives in school to impress other students, but that only isolates her further. Her closest friend, Antimony, is shy and sometimes emotionally closed off, but Kat cares deeply for her. This good friendship has, for Kat, grown some romantic elements. However, fearing rejection, Kat has not told Antimony about this.
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Post by bluemotion on Jun 5, 2010 14:13:16 GMT
There most definitely IS decisive evidence. Tom (that's the author himself, if you didn't know) has repeatedly stated that he has NO intention of making the relationship between the two anything more than platonic.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 5, 2010 15:09:04 GMT
Where has he stated that? A link would be helpful.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 5, 2010 15:15:35 GMT
As a sidenote, it's ironic that platonic love is called "platonic", since Plato was among the people who saw a same-sex sexual subtext in another famous friendship: Achillles and Patroclus.
In short: even Plato sometimes saw non-platonic subtext.
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Post by Casey on Jun 5, 2010 15:23:14 GMT
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on Jun 5, 2010 16:55:52 GMT
Not to mention if anybody has ever payed attention to anything he's said, he's always squicky about shipping.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 5, 2010 17:29:32 GMT
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Post by todd on Jun 6, 2010 0:07:20 GMT
Tom said once (I forget the URL of the interview, unfortunately) that he saw Annie as almost "genderless" (in that she's a young person investigating the weird goings-on at Gunnerkrigg who just happens to be a girl), in contrast to Kat's much more feminine tone (even if Kat seems more tomboyish on the surface than Annie); that would make Annie's lack of interest in romance especially appropriate.
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Post by clockworks on Jun 6, 2010 1:39:48 GMT
It always strikes me as strange how people seem to get so defensive about denying Annie/Kat. It always comes down to "Tom said this," "Tom said that," etc. - and most of the time, Tom hasn't really said anything definitive. All he's said is that he doesn't wish for any characters' sexuality (heterosexual or otherwise) to be the main focus of the comic. That doesn't confirm or deny anything in terms of particular relationships.
It also concerns me that most people seem to equate Annie/Kat with a sort of "ew gross, you just want to see lesbians making out!" sentiment. Homosexuality always seem to attract that assumptions like that, which has always bothered me quite a bit. I'm heterosexual and female, and I think that a relationship between Annie and Kat (given that they're a bit older) would actually be quite cute. Do fans of Parley/Smitty just want to see them make out? Of course not, that would be ridiculous in a comic that's generally fairly "family friendly." It's the same case with Annie/Kat.
When it comes down to it, it's pointless to get in such a heated debate over the sexualities of fictional characters. Character interpretation comes down to the individual, and while some may see signs of Annie/Kat subtext, others will always perceive their relationship as strictly platonic. Either way, sexuality will never be the focus of the comic.
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Jun 6, 2010 22:38:29 GMT
Personally, I'm just kinda annoyed that two girls (or two guys, or a guy and a girl) can't have a real close friendship like Annie and Kat have without it being construed as sexual. We've got plenty of shippy stuff going on with other characters, including Zimmy/Gamma subtext.  I interpret Annie as being an asexual, which is a perfectly valid sexual orientation, and one that usually gets ignored or its existence outright denied by society at large. I'm certain I can't be the only one who shares this interpretation. |
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