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Post by AluK on Jan 29, 2007 20:16:06 GMT
Lead's alchemical symbol.
I wrote a post with some thoughts on the alchemical symbols in the Alchemy topic.
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 29, 2007 20:21:53 GMT
Oh silly me for not taking the time to read the post.
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Post by iMacThere4iAm on Jan 29, 2007 20:41:38 GMT
I'm going to continue my research in that alchemy topic.
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Post by owl on Jan 29, 2007 23:28:54 GMT
See, hmm. My mind likes the techology and magic = same thing, opposite poles thing, but it makes me sad. Magic has a lot to do with wonder and belief, and I think that if we did not believe magic to be "magical" it would not be so. That's actually basically what you're saying, but...in my mind they're seperated. I know what fire is and why it does what it does, but seeing the images in the flickering flames still seems magical. I know what lightning is and why it does what it does, but watching it strike is still magical.
I'm not exactly sure what my point is here, but I thought I'd just add my two cents. Maybe if I read this over later I'll figure out what I was trying to say.
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Post by waruitanuki on Jan 30, 2007 0:54:02 GMT
Science is essentially an explanation of how reality works. If magic is an observable part of reality, it is a part of science. Even if we don't know exactly why it works, or where it comes from, if you can know that saying certain words, making certain gestures, etc. causes certain things to happen, that means that magic can be studied. If it couldn't be understood at all, no one could cast any spells or do any of the interesting sort of things that happen in stories about magic.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 30, 2007 1:14:30 GMT
See, hmm. My mind likes the techology and magic = same thing, opposite poles thing, but it makes me sad. Magic has a lot to do with wonder and belief, and I think that if we did not believe magic to be "magical" it would not be so. That's actually basically what you're saying, but...in my mind they're seperated. I know what fire is and why it does what it does, but seeing the images in the flickering flames still seems magical. I know what lightning is and why it does what it does, but watching it strike is still magical. I'm not exactly sure what my point is here, but I thought I'd just add my two cents. Maybe if I read this over later I'll figure out what I was trying to say. I agree with your point, even if you do not understand it. And just ceacuase it can be explained or studied doesn't mean that it stops being magic. |
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Post by owl on Jan 30, 2007 1:18:04 GMT
See? THAT was my point. Thanks!
*sneaks up and hugs* Wahaahahah! You can't punch me if I only cyber-hug you!
Sorry. Just had to do that. I know you don't like it.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 30, 2007 1:24:33 GMT
Everything going black...
I cast magic missile at the darkness!
There is magic in everything, and I feel that while it is of the same tapestry as technology it is portraying a completely different scene.
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Post by owl on Jan 30, 2007 1:28:25 GMT
Hee!
Nice metaphor, though I prefer to say that it's more the same scene woven by different people.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 30, 2007 1:31:00 GMT
Maybe the same scene from a different perspective.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 30, 2007 5:22:31 GMT
Hmm... Well, I'm going to say that Tom's magic is a lot more literal and direct than what I practice, which is why I've been calling it 'magic' as opposed to 'magick' (just useful ways to distinguish, no real difference)...
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Post by fjodor on Jan 30, 2007 18:40:05 GMT
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Post by trevor on Jan 30, 2007 18:47:08 GMT
I think it's a lower case Zeta
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Post by trevor on Jan 30, 2007 18:48:27 GMT
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Post by fjodor on Jan 30, 2007 19:37:05 GMT
Ah, Thanks. Which is also Zimmy's real name. Can't be a coincidence.
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Post by La Poire on Jan 30, 2007 19:37:52 GMT
Would make sense then, as, well, it's from Zetazimmy's perspective.
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Post by waruitanuki on Jan 30, 2007 20:46:05 GMT
Hopefully this will clear up any semantic misunderstandings in the "magic is/isn't technology" discussion: Science - knowledge, as of facts or principles.
Technology - the science of the application of knowledge to practical purposes.
Magic - the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. So sayeth Dictionary.com. From these definitions, it should be clear that magic is a technology and a science, but still "magic." For example, Kat's mom can apply her knowledge of the the facts and principles about the incantations or other techniques that assure human control over the forces of nature to the practical purpose of binding a demon. And by this definition of magic, no matter how much you know about it and how it works, it's still magic. To put it in other terms, you can know everything there is to know about wood down to its atomic makeup, cellular structure, and the physics involved in the interactions between wood and sharpened pieces of metal, but carpentry is still carpentry. I think the same concept applies here, even though "magic" has historically been used to explain seemingly unexplainable phenomenon. |
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 30, 2007 21:03:57 GMT
Also magic is alive and I can't think of any current technology that is also alive.
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Post by La Poire on Jan 30, 2007 22:10:30 GMT
Also magic is alive and I can't think of any current technology that is also alive. Wood is also alive. The analogy of magic as a living thing is a good one, but that doesn't mean the differences between different forms of magic are smaller than those between a cactus and a human. |
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Post by waruitanuki on Jan 30, 2007 22:43:10 GMT
How do you know magic is alive? In terms of magic in GC, we don't know much of anything. In fiction as well as the belief systems of those who believe in magic in real life, there are many variations of the idea of magic.
Anyway, beasts of burden, seeing-eye dogs, the use of plants in agriculture... All of those things are living technology. You're still associating the word "technology" with gears and pulleys and electrical wires. Technology means more than that. Technology is not just "things we make," it's "things we use."
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Post by fjodor on Jan 30, 2007 22:57:26 GMT
Also magic is alive and I can't think of any current technology that is also alive. Biotechnology? Just kidding. I guess Magic is any kind of manipulation that cannot be explained by the laws of physics we currently know/understand. I mean manipulation in a neutral way; whatever use you put it to will define it as either white or black magic. This definition implies that magic will always come in religion's way; which explains why the pope will never be a big Harry Potter fan, or a GC fan for that matter. Practicing magic is a form of trespassing. But back on topic: early in the story Kat told Annie science is in fact GC's specialty. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=22Relate this to Ms Donlan's (a teacher after all) ability to bind Reynardine in a most peculiar way, and I guess science in GC covers more topics than in regular schools. |
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 31, 2007 1:44:39 GMT
Even Magic? we haven't seen any sign of controlled magic in any students, and the only structured magic has been Mrs. Donlan, and we don't know that she is teaching it.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 31, 2007 2:08:38 GMT
We can debate the meaning of magic until we are blue in the face... I'm going to say that Mrs Donlan & Eglamore are the only humans we've seen that can pretty conclusively use magic. I think that Eglamore's sword is, if not purely magic, at least something that can only be wielded by magic.
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Post by owl on Jan 31, 2007 2:14:40 GMT
I doubt Magic is taught at Gunnerkrigg. I mean, obviously supernatural things happen at the school, but it seems to me that people don't go there to be taught the supernatural.
...If that makes sense.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 31, 2007 2:16:37 GMT
I doubt Magic is taught at Gunnerkrigg. I mean, obviously supernatural things happen at the school, but it seems to me that people don't go there to be taught the supernatural. ...If that makes sense. Maybe if they have magic that is already there and "released" then they might be taught it. |
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 31, 2007 2:19:07 GMT
I don't think so- referring back to the surprise on the other students faces when Annie brings in Basil (BTW, is that Bay-zlll or Bah-zlll?), it seems that most of the students are familiar with high-technology but not the supernatural. Kat even says in that chapter that the focus of the school is Science & Technology, which is the reason they go into the old library in the first place.
Edit: Spellcheck is your friend.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 31, 2007 2:20:47 GMT
I thought they went into the old library to research the Minotaur and found basil?
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 31, 2007 2:22:48 GMT
No ideas on the  symbol carved above the front doors of the Court, and twice on the wall near it... I can't find any concrete information on it except "A sign from the French hobo or gypsy system meaning 'this is a hospitable house.'" Maybe that's exactly it, but it seems too simple to be true... Don't overlook the simple explanations, even in GC Occam's Razer might still apply. Rasta- yes, they did, but only because they couldn't find anything on Mythology except 2 kiddy books, because the school is dedicated to Sci & Tech. |
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 31, 2007 2:25:41 GMT
Maybe it is now, but think about how large the old library was, it had a whole section, including a statue, devoted to Greek Mythology, that is not normal for a Sci-Tech school.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 31, 2007 2:28:11 GMT
Maybe it is now, but think about how large the old library was, it had a whole section, including a statue, devoted to Greek Mythology, that is not normal for a Sci-Tech school. I said that its a sci-tech school NOW... I'm not quite sure if they should have been in the 'Old' Library. I get the impression that that wasn't actually part of the 'school' at GC. |
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