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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 2:39:34 GMT
With magic, the power source is inside, and then moved outside by a force of will.
With science the power source is external, and if power is moved outside of where it starts it is done so artificially, not with the will.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 2:43:23 GMT
I think this is why most comics/books/movies deal only with technology/sciences or only with magic and don't try to combine them. Or we could just be anylizing this way to much.
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 28, 2007 2:47:59 GMT
Thats what I was trying to say with my magic=technology quote.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 2:50:03 GMT
I just feel that technology/sciences were created by humans as our cultures and societies have evolved, but magic has been there all along, so should stay separate.
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 28, 2007 2:53:44 GMT
Well you are falling into the human=un-natural thinking that plagues popular thought.
Humans evolved naturally and thus everything that we create is thus part of that evolution. Technology is simply the harnessing of natural forces anyways.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 2:55:29 GMT
I am not saying that humans or the sciences are unnatural, I am just saying that magic is far older and should be treated with respect.
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 28, 2007 3:00:45 GMT
Well thats only because science is an abstract concept created by sentient beings*. If by magic you mean the forces of creation than yes. But they stooped being magic once we started figuring out how they worked and started being tools.
*us
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 3:08:12 GMT
When did we figure out the forces of creation and start using them as tools?
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 28, 2007 3:18:16 GMT
Well if by forces of creation you mean the laws of physics...
I would say about the time we started rubbing two sticks together.
Or discovered that lightning and magnets used the same force.
Or discovered the the same thing that made an apple fall to the ground is also what makes the planets orbit the sun.
Or found out that you could convert matter to energy by multiplying it times the speed of light and then squaring it.
Or that you could make new elements by smashing other atoms together.
Nature does all this by itself already and has been doing this since the beginning of time, but we being sentient can do this at will if we only know how. And could not all these wonders be considered magical.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 28, 2007 3:19:37 GMT
Or the magic counterpoint to that... 'Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.' (Anyone know what that's from? Bonus points if you do)
That said, we can say for certain that magic does exist in Gunner's Crag, and so does very advanced technology. It's possible that these are just supposed to be separate, maybe like the two poles of a magnet, and trying to bring them together is pointless and futile. Annie is certainly possessed of some of both of these attributes, while Kat is very far on the Technology side, and Eglamore is on the magical side. (As is Mrs Donlan).
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 3:21:46 GMT
Hurray! We have an answer! Magic and Science are like two Poles of a magnet, made of the same material, but can't be brought togethe.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 28, 2007 3:23:00 GMT
And before someone gripes to me about that, it means that Annie is like the WHOLE magnet, rather than just a single pole. A magnet still isn't a great analogy.
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 28, 2007 3:23:26 GMT
Well I think my idea was better. But some ppl don't like it for some reason.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 3:26:09 GMT
My apologys alexthegreater, i just think the magnet makes more sense.
it doesn't cover everything, because it makes it seem like science and magic are incompatible 9magnetic poles repel each other) but it does simplify things.
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 28, 2007 3:35:12 GMT
Well i just suggest that they are the same force and everyone acts like i am uttering foulest blasphemy.
Making any distinction between them is pointless because they are the same force. Subsequently the idea of magical technology (magi tech) is redundant and foolish.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 28, 2007 3:37:15 GMT
That's why I used the magnet analogy... It shows them both connected but the same. Think quantum mechanics.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 28, 2007 3:40:39 GMT
Think Einstein's theory of Unification, one big equation.
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Post by freemage on Jan 28, 2007 5:01:35 GMT
First things first:
Arthur Clarke's maxim, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" is actually a statement that magic doesn't really exist--it's all just science that the society calling it 'magic' hasn't figured out yet.
So, to a pre-fire society, a Bic lighter is 'magic'.
Thus, there is no need for magic in science fiction stories (the theory goes), because both can fulfill the same purpose.
Now, on to GC:
Magic can fall into two general broad categories in fiction:
1: Sh*t happens.
2: Sh*t happens, and we know why, or at least can predict when/how.
In other words, it's either something that cannot be in any way articulated, explained or analyzed, or it's not, and thus it can be.
The presence of alchemy as such an underlying theme in this story suggests that, in GC, we're dealing with the latter--Magic may follow its own rules (rather than those of science), but follow them it does. This is the whole point of alchemy, really--to use experimentation and theorization to determine the best way to the Philosopher's Stone.
Human nature being what it is, if magic in this universe is reliable and at least somewhat subject to manipulation, then someone will find the means to do so.
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Post by missushow on Jan 28, 2007 5:08:05 GMT
What ^ said... Because that's mostly what Gunnerkrigg is...Encounters that lead to deeper things...always there's a reason. I think ti's much directed by destiny.
Also: rastarogue, would you mind not double posting? There's a modify button for a reason...:/
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Post by La Poire on Jan 28, 2007 14:29:08 GMT
First things first: Arthur Clarke's maxim, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Dammit beated. I also like Niven's refomulation of the same law: "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." In the end, it doesn't really matter; Mrs. Donlan appears to be a mage but is also a science teacher. However, I don't believe Tom inclines for his magic to be explained as far as to be completely scientific, which in my opinion would be boring and take half the point out of it anyway. |
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Post by La Poire on Jan 28, 2007 14:34:06 GMT
By the way, have anyone noticed the facade of the Court (seen here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=99) has the alchemical symbols for bismuth, gold and lead on it? The symbol of bismuth (a circle with horns, basically) seems to be featured a lot around the Court, actually. |
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Post by mrw on Jan 28, 2007 17:09:03 GMT
The circle with horns (bismuth) can also mean salt, according to some sources. Salt has a much more powerful mystical meaning than bismuth.
Seems that the ancient alchemists didn't really have a well organized symbol system, and sometimes there were re-uses, not to mention hordes of different symbols meaning the same thing.
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Post by La Poire on Jan 28, 2007 19:56:30 GMT
Should we make a separate alchemy thread? People seem to be discussing it all over, perhaps it would be good to have one thread to reference back to.
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Post by Aspen d'Grey on Jan 28, 2007 21:25:37 GMT
Wouldn't be a bad idea- if you see a need for it, go ahead and post. ^^
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Post by La Poire on Jan 28, 2007 21:45:08 GMT
I'll do it now, then. Just didn't know if it would be a bit excessive along with this thread.
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Post by rastarogue on Jan 29, 2007 3:12:54 GMT
Also: rastarogue, would you mind not double posting? There's a modify button for a reason...:/ sorry I got carried away and did not think, I will refrain from double posting in the future |
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Post by iMacThere4iAm on Jan 29, 2007 17:08:11 GMT
I can remember another scene where the Bismuth/Salt sign was written on the wall. I think Annie and Kat were in a chemistry lab, and it was on the blackboard along with others. I can't remember the chapter. I wonder, if Eglamore, Lead and the Court are all connected, then who is Salt? I think it could possibly be Surma or Anthony. Edit: I just spotted something cool, 'Surma' is another name for Kohl or dark eye makeup, which was traditionally made from a compound of Antimony  Edit: More coolness: "Often mothers will apply kohl around their children's eyes to make their beauty imperfect and thus reduce their susceptibility to the evil eye." |
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Post by La Poire on Jan 29, 2007 18:28:17 GMT
That's actually really cool. Evil eye = Reynardine? Surma knew him, after all.
About the lead symbols: I don't think lead is a symbol for Eglamore specifically, it is featured on the school and he has a plaque in his office. Perhaps it's some kind of order, of dragon slayers or something, in which Eglamore is a member?
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Post by iMacThere4iAm on Jan 29, 2007 18:55:34 GMT
La Poire, that makes sense. I'm re-reading now, looking out for symbols I might have missed. No ideas on the  symbol carved above the front doors of the Court, and twice on the wall near it... I can't find any concrete information on it except "A sign from the French hobo or gypsy system meaning 'this is a hospitable house.'" Maybe that's exactly it, but it seems too simple to be true... I noticed the Zeta and Gamma with a salt sign at the start of chapter 5; interesting quote for salt in this context: "In general, Salt represents the action of thought on matter" |
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Post by alexthegreater on Jan 29, 2007 20:11:22 GMT
What is that Z symbol that is on the doors of the school and Eglamore's armor?
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