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Post by nikita on Sept 24, 2009 13:52:36 GMT
Okay... I'll reread the thread now because I have no clue anymore what has already been said..
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 13:58:35 GMT
I'm not calling you out for missing anything Nikita. It's just a general statement. I could, for example, go line by line explaining what I disagree with in the responses to my analysis of Ch 10, but who really wants to read that? Suffice it to say that I think everyone views this comic with their own experiences influencing their opinions. And I do think that that is also true of pretty much any work of fiction or art that is left up to the viewer's interpretation. I think it takes a more skilled story writer to tell a story that leaves room for the reader to bring their own opinions and emotions into play, while not spelling everything out for the reader on one hand, or being too vague to move the story forward on the other. It's a delicate balance, and I think the fact that we've been having these discussions for the last week or so is an indication of just how "intepretable" (spell check tells me that's not a word, but it should be) the characters are. More so than I would have realized, had we not all started talking about it.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 24, 2009 14:08:00 GMT
I think it's telling that, as has been mentioned elsewhere before, Annie's first acquaintances at the Court were Shadow 2 and Robot. And Kat, she only knows because Kat introduced herself. And now they're best friends.
So I don't think Annie's opposed to getting to know the other students, and I imagine that if another student made a comparable effort get to know Annie, then they'd become friends as well. Annie's just not very used to getting to know other students (particularly in purely social contexts) so she's not very good at taking the initiative in such matters. And she already has friends, so she doesn't feel a need to make more friends in class.
I wouldn't be surprised if, in response to this chapter, Annie starts making more effort to get to know her classmates for Kat's sake. "You shouldn't be lonely because of me, Kat."
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 14:11:13 GMT
Short version: "For a kid who grew up alone in a hospital, she's relatively well-adjusted."
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Sept 24, 2009 14:33:16 GMT
Most thorough analyses can be undone with a mere word, that word being "Enh..." If they're not so thorough they can be undone without even actual words: A *shrug* suffices. And differing opinions can be valid, even if they're short single-sentence ones. On the whole I think I agree more with nikita's one-sentence analysis, rather than your longer one. I think Annie has had lots of opportunities to make friends but she doesn't take them, because she isn't particularly interested in taking them. She is polite but doesn't pursue or encourage friendships: As Tom commented in #233 "Not Annie then." |
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Post by nikita on Sept 24, 2009 15:02:21 GMT
(Done. „I'm not calling you out for missing anything Nikita.“ No no, you're right. I should read carefully what others have said and explain my opinion if I expect others to read it.)
I've come to the conclusion that I can not know whether Annie did make friends with other students (except Kat) or not, because we rarely see her together with her classmates. Something might have happened "off screen" - or not - I don't know.
(Also, I realized that in my previous post, I only summarized what others have already said.)
My opinion is, that Kat and Annie would have responded differently to Jack's claims if they had all been obvious lies. I think he greatly exaggerated the situation, but there is still some truth in it and this prevents Annie and Kat from dismissing his words as nonsense and laughing about him, though they know that what he said was hurtful and feels wrong. This is what makes it hard for them to deal with the situation.
The fact that we rarely see her interact with other students could also be a hint. (but it doesn't have to)
That is my theory.
It reminds me of "Coyote is no liar."
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 15:39:02 GMT
My opinion is, that Kat and Annie would have responded differently to Jack's claims if they had all been obvious lies. I think he greatly exaggerated the situation, but there is still some truth in it and this prevents Annie and Kat from dismissing his words as nonsense and laughing about him, though they know that what he said was hurtful and feels wrong. This is what makes it hard for them to deal with the situation. I think that is a fantastic summary of the current situation. |
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Post by the bandit on Sept 24, 2009 16:28:16 GMT
More than a single sentence, then. Mezzaphor, this was a trove of insightful stuff. 1) 178, last panel Notice Annie says "my friends", not "my classmates". This is a rare insight into how Annie thinks of the others. One could argue that she wouldn't feel that way unless she'd had interactions with them (offscreen?) that would lead her to feel that way. 2) General happiness at Carver "saving the day" and this is pretty much GC's version of recess, so, it looks like Annie does in fact 'play well with others'... once she allowed herself to in this chapter. But the others seem to have no problem playing with her. (Keep in mind that they aren't just happy because she's saving them, because they know it's a game and that they aren't in any real danger). 3) the really important page which contains enthusiastic encouragement from her friends, acknowledgment that she has made their play time more enjoyable, compliments (even from Winsbury), and acknowledgment from Annie that she enjoyed playing with them. All of this could not only be used to debunk the theory that the others don't like her or see her as unapproachable... it could ALSO be used to debunk the theory that Annie is severely introverted (in the textbook sense of being completely drained by social interaction). The important thing to remember from the Spacemonauts chapter is that at the end Annie has been forced to act out of character. It's not far-fetched to assume that in all previous Dr. Disaster classes she behaved as she is doing in panel 5 here. Only after Kat persuades her to actually participate in the fun and after the simulation forces her to participate, does she. 1) a) "Friends" is a broad term. b) The term can be applied non-mutually. Annie considers her classmates friends and would do things for them; she did, after all, light a fire for them that the cows wouldn't extinguish. But then she turns around and walks off. (Nota Bene: I don't believe the faces of the kids in the first panel of that page is what's important; I believe it's the last panel that's important. The last two panels are Annie's classmates' perception of Annie.) Would Winsbury call Annie his friend? 2) "Real" danger or no, there'd be general happiness merely on account of Carver saving the day. There's no evidence to interpret they -- aside from Kat -- are specifically glad it's Carver. Also, see #3. 3) "I hope you like your ... smashed ... death ray." Witty phrases do not appear to be Carver's forté, but everyone is excited by this one? Why? My interpretation would be that Carver is acting out of character. It's greatly amusing to see someone acting out of the mode you usually associate with them. In this case, instead of hanging back and not really participating, Annie is the fore-front protagonist and important hero of the mission for a change. Her stepping out of the box alone would be exciting for the other students. Her actually trying, whether she does well or not, earns praise from her fellow students. Which leaves two important conclusions: The first, no, Annie's classmates don't hate her or wish her ill will. This is an unfair addition to them seeing her as an ice queen, just as draping Jack with horribly malignant intent is an unfair addition to his completely inappropriate actions in the hallway. Her classmates would definitely be her friends if she gave them the chance. The second, Annie typically removes herself from interactions with her other classmates and is probably viewed by them as unsocial. The Spacemonauts chapter seemed to jump out discordantly from Nut's analysis ... in all the others, she's removed from her classmates without much interaction, but in this one suddenly everyone's good friends? But when you recognize that in that chapter Annie is acting out of character -- which is actually the thrust of the plot development for that whole chapter -- if anything it shows how often she removes herself from friendly interactions with her classmates. |
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Post by Mishmash on Sept 24, 2009 16:42:53 GMT
bandit, I think you have a pretty good, balanced view of the situation!
The main things I took from it are Jack's actions have been inappropriate, but not enough to justify calling him evil, and while Annie's classmates might see her as unapproachable/ a bit of a loner because she does not talk to them much, it does not mean they hate her like Jack implied.
Also you guys have me thinking about Annie's use of the word "friends". It makes me kind of sad to see how she considers her classmates friends even though she hardly knows them at all - after all before coming to the Court the closest things she had to friends were invisible monsters who took her to chat to dying people.
Annie might be acting like she is only worried about Kat, but if she really does think of them as friends, Jack telling her that they think she's an Ice Queen and don't want to talk to her probably hurt a lot more than she is letting on.
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 24, 2009 18:54:01 GMT
I would suspect that everyone called him Jack because he was introduced as Jack at the Power Station, and they wouldn't have any way of knowing what his last name was until they heard the LC say it. Jack isn't in their class, remember. He's in QS. Yeah. Also, "clear dislike" is not the only part of it. That is, until Jack started to act like a loonie they get along well with each other. I should mention that I WAS kidding about John having a crush on Annie... just in case anyone was worried!  Too late. A squadron of shippers is already on the intercept course.  Panel #3 shows no more reaction than just a mild interest caused by all the noise. "Ah, it's just Willy got jerk flu again". "Oh, look - fresh one hurled Willy. Now here's a scuffle!". #6 and #7 are after Mr. Eglamore fell everyone in. But if my memory didn't betrayed me, kids tend to do much the same even without any incident, unless someone brought the Erinyes to class.  IMHO you dropped half a pinch of Epic Epicness into an event completely mundane for all its participants and quite forgettable for most. It's weird to me how I can make a long, multi-paragraph post showing how she has, and then someone else makes a short, single-sentence post that is completely the opposite. [...] It's just that it's always a little unnerving when my thorough analysis is undone with a single sentence! See? I told ye, you're not here yet.  The important thing to remember from the Spacemonauts chapter is that at the end Annie has been forced to act out of character. It's not far-fetched to assume that in all previous Dr. Disaster classes she behaved as she is doing in panel 5 here. It is, since Kat neither expects nor mentions it. Also, Dr. Disaster may herd her or anyone into participation, like this time. Of course, she's obviously less than enthusiastic about it, but an average would be "just tag along". 3) "I hope you like your ... smashed ... death ray." Witty phrases do not appear to be Carver's forté, but everyone is excited by this one? Why? My interpretation would be that Carver is acting out of character. [...] Her stepping out of the box alone would be exciting for the other students. Her actually trying, whether she does well or not, earns praise from her fellow students. Or just because this sim follows the genre's conventions and one-liner is a part of this game, expected and marking "You won, game over". Thus with anyone else in this role they'd be just as excited. For the same 30 seconds or so. |
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 18:57:28 GMT
More good analyses all around IMO.
In my understanding of the term, "Ice Queen" carries an implication that a person is making an effort to hold themselves aloof and even above everyone else. It's like I said earlier... a lot of people who were shy when they were young report later in life that they came to find out that their peers thought they were stuck-up and holier-than-thou, when in fact they kept to themselves because they were very shy.
So while I agree that you all have each made very strong analyses of Annie's interaction with her peers, I still wouldn't go so far as to say that any of them actually think she is an Ice Queen, which in my understanding carries a much more severe connotation, and implies an active effort to carry one's self as superior to the others. I don't think the others think Annie does this. I think they think she's a bit of a loner. I think that she didn't get directly invited to go to the Power Station, very simply, because they figured she wouldn't be interested in coming.
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Post by the bandit on Sept 24, 2009 19:18:48 GMT
I keep going back and forth between those two paragraphs trying to figure out how it's possible I can agree with every single one of your statements but not your overall assessment. Casey, you boggle my mind. =)
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 19:40:18 GMT
Casey, you boggle my mind. =) That's because my dialogue is actually secretly written by Tom |
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Post by wynne on Sept 24, 2009 20:11:35 GMT
Also you guys have me thinking about Annie's use of the word "friends". It makes me kind of sad to see how she considers her classmates friends even though she hardly knows them at all - after all before coming to the Court the closest things she had to friends were invisible monsters who took her to chat to dying people. Annie might be acting like she is only worried about Kat, but if she really does think of them as friends, Jack telling her that they think she's an Ice Queen and don't want to talk to her probably hurt a lot more than she is letting on. "Friend" really is a general term. What she might have meant may have been closer to "friendly acquaintances". That said, it's possible she does think of them as real friends, because it's almost certain that she's interacted with at least the other female classmates, if only by virtue of going to a boarding school. Kids tend to bond really quickly when separated from their families and sharing a bathroom (which the bunks from the first year imply they did), be they at boarding school, college, or an overnight camp, if only because there is practically no way for them to avoid interacting. Case in point: my brother, who was completely antisocial in high school, now has a bunch of friends in college through his roommate, as well as being friends with other kids in his hall, to the point that he is now an Honorary Asian. |
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Post by todd on Sept 24, 2009 22:54:40 GMT
Tom might permit himself occasional inconsistencies for the needs of the immediate scene.
I wonder whether Annie *could* change her ways and become more "normal". For one thing, the consequences of all those years in the hospital, with no children her age to play with, only Guides and ghosts (and her bedridden mother), probably couldn't be so easily undone. Also, Annie shows little or no natural inclination towards most of the things that children her age would be interested in, and I don't think that she could be taught to learn that; the most she might be abe to do would be to feign interest. (She certainly wouldn't be keen on video games after the Grand Theft Auto incident.)
More likely, as some people have suggested, Annie might decide to isolate herself from Kat so that Kat would have better hopes of being accepted by her peers. But we'll have to wait and see.
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Post by King Mir on Sept 25, 2009 0:25:30 GMT
Annie's message isn't mirrored. I would have expected it to be, since she's writing for herself to see only. Why would you think that she's writing for herself to see only when it's a message to Kat? An extremely simple practice message, but a message to Kat nonetheless. Because she's not writing to Kat, she's writing for herself, while talking to Kat about something completely different. Then again, given that it's not backwards, perhalps you're right. That wasn't how it looked to me when I read it though. |
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Post by King Mir on Sept 25, 2009 1:29:31 GMT
To add my part to this very interesting discussion on Annie's relationship with her peers:
As a rule, nothing important happens off screen. Annie's not making friends of screen. Her friends are Mort, Shadow 2, Kat, Rey, and Robot. The fact there are few interactions with other students tells us two things, one that there are few interactions with other students in univerce, and two that those interactions that are shown are probably typical.
Also, with regards to chapter 10, in addition to what others have said, that happened a while ago, a year in comic time, and 14 chapters ago. Sure, she interacted with her classmates then, but she has quite clearly not taken the opportunity to make friends, and likely this yeah disaster's classes have stopped.
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troll
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Post by troll on Sept 25, 2009 3:32:25 GMT
Annie's been handling Jack a lot worse than... anything else she's encountered, off the top of my head. Possession aside the key distinction there is that Jack is her first human antagonist. If that's true, it makes sense that she's just bad with people.
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Post by Casey on Sept 25, 2009 4:49:45 GMT
To add my part to this very interesting discussion on annie's relationship with her pears: Annie's relationship to her pears, is that she eats them! (I couldn't resist that one.) And yet, amazingly, no one has starved to death, and they managed to graduate to Year 8. My point being that normal everyday things do happen offscreen, and it's a normal everyday thing for a student at a boarding school to be among, if not with, their classmates. Therefore I reject that there are "few interactions with other students". Just few interactions important enough to make their way into the narrative of an ongoing comic book. Annie's been handling Jack a lot worse than... anything else she's encountered, off the top of my head. Upon what do you base this analysis? When Jack cornered her and pressed her against the wall and demanded answers, she tried to calmly answer them, and when it was clear he wasn't going to allow that, she did not freak out, kick him in the nads, run screaming away, or anything like that. She held her tongue and kept her cool until Rey made it clear to Jack (on his own accord) that he was out of line. The next time they meet, they exchange glances, but she doesn't get scared nor does she overreact and freak out at his presence. She just carries on, with only a small frown to herself. The third time they meet in etherspace, if you could call it a meeting, she casually observes him until he does that weird spider pulse thing. She then takes back her stone. You do not see her freaking out before the encounter about the fact that he stole her blinker stone: she just states the facts to Kat: My blinker stone isn't where I left it, and Jack has it. Then after the encounter she still doesn't freak out about what happened, she just tells Kat to stay clear of him. And the fourth time they meet, Annie doesn't say anything to him... Kat did all the talking. And even while between her best friend and the closest thing she has to an enemy, she still mediated the situation and kept a cool head and got Kat away from the escalation even when both of the other two were clearly not acting civil. So please tell me. In what way did Annie handle Jack poorly? |
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troll
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Post by troll on Sept 25, 2009 5:43:12 GMT
Annie's been handling Jack a lot worse than... anything else she's encountered, off the top of my head. Upon what do you base this analysis? When Jack cornered her and pressed her against the wall and demanded answers, she tried to calmly answer them, and when it was clear he wasn't going to allow that, she did not freak out, kick him in the nads, run screaming away, or anything like that. She held her tongue and kept her cool until Rey made it clear to Jack (on his own accord) that he was out of line. The next time they meet, they exchange glances, but she doesn't get scared nor does she overreact and freak out at his presence. She just carries on, with only a small frown to herself. The third time they meet in etherspace, if you could call it a meeting, she casually observes him until he does that weird spider pulse thing. She then takes back her stone. You do not see her freaking out before the encounter about the fact that he stole her blinker stone: she just states the facts to Kat: My blinker stone isn't where I left it, and Jack has it. Then after the encounter she still doesn't freak out about what happened, she just tells Kat to stay clear of him. And the fourth time they meet, Annie doesn't say anything to him... Kat did all the talking. And even while between her best friend and the closest thing she has to an enemy, she still mediated the situation and kept a cool head and got Kat away from the escalation even when both of the other two were clearly not acting civil. So please tell me. In what way did Annie handle Jack poorly? Avoidance- she backed into a wall, then averted her head as far as it could go breaking eye contact. She's a lot more confident elsewhere. Look how she handles Zimmy in 464 for what I see as more in character- never breaks eye contact when personal space is violated; assertiveness and judo- Jack gets avoidance and worry. After the wood encounter, she goes to Kat for reassurance- at least, that's what I see going in front of "Well, we knew Jack's class would be here too. I don't think he's gonna... you know, DO anything.", "I suppose not." Then there's her expression in the panel in which she tells Kat to stay clear. This is Antimony being intimidated. She's not the screaming nad-kicking kind, I don't think. Not handling as well in that Annie just plain deals with things as they come, when they come. But for some reason she's not getting into the Jack problem. |
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tictoc
New Member
1000 eyes and counting
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Post by tictoc on Sept 25, 2009 6:39:42 GMT
hehe.. wow troll, for a person who goes by the title 'troll' on an internet forum, that was clear, concise and well thought out I find myself agreeing. |
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Post by Casey on Sept 25, 2009 13:04:43 GMT
She looked behind her because she ran into the wall. Not because she was shying away from Jack. Notice the sudden appearance of shadow immediately behind Annie, which was put there to make it clear to us that she was forced backwards all the way -into- the wall. In fact, one poster commented in the discussion thread for that wall that Annie's expression was more like "Ah, a wall. You annoy me for impeding my progress." It kind of annoys me when people point to that frame and try to say that it's evidence that Annie was all boo-hoo about Jack.
But more to the point: I don't feel you answered my question. In what way did she handle -Jack- in a way that should have been different? You said that she didn't handle Jack well. What specific actions did she take with/against Jack, that you feel she should have done differently, and what do you think she should have done instead?
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mjh
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Post by mjh on Sept 25, 2009 14:09:45 GMT
"Friend" really is a general term. We should also keep in mind this is a friend-or-foe type of situation she is in. There’s the enemy, the evil Enigmarons, and there are your own people, your friends. “Friends” is more or less a technical term here. |
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Post by Casey on Sept 25, 2009 14:18:34 GMT
"Friend" really is a general term. We should also keep in mind this is a friend-or-foe type of situation she is in. There’s the enemy, the evil Enigmarons, and there are your own people, your friends. “Friends” is more or less a technical term here. Because we all know the importance of using technical terms, when you're talking to yourself in a ventilation shaft. By the way, not related to this: This whole chapter, people are kind of pointing at Annie's attitude in the chapter and saying "See! See! She's a social outcast!" But my interpretation of this chapter has always been that she wasn't excited about simulated adventures because of the real adventure/ordeal that she just went through in the ravine. Nothing to do with not wanting to socialize. Everything to do with finding the simulation corny and unstimulating. Of course everyone does have their own take on things. And people will bend situations to fit their point of view, or their side of a discussion. So... yeah. |
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mjh
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Post by mjh on Sept 25, 2009 14:25:41 GMT
In what way did she handle -Jack- in a way that should have been different? You said that she didn't handle Jack well. What specific actions did she take with/against Jack, that you feel she should have done differently, and what do you think she should have done instead? I think troll has a point: she didn’t handle Jack as competently as she did handle virtually everyone else. When a rather menacing Minotaur appeared out of the dark, she kept her cool: “Hello, Sir. My name is Antimony.” When Coyote started acting inappropriately, she gave him a good spanking. And still, Jack gives her the creeps, rendering her incapable of dealing with the situation other than by retreat. She’s held her ground when confronted by much scarier creatures than him and has proven to be capable of manhandling other boys her age, so what’s the issue with Jack? |
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mjh
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Post by mjh on Sept 25, 2009 14:32:34 GMT
Of course everyone does have their own take on things. And people will bend situations to fit their point of view, or their side of a discussion. So... yeah. Wouldn’t it suffice if everyone just offered their take on whatever is the issue at hand, rather than, again and again, agonizing over other participants’ inability to see the world in just the same way as oneself sees it so clearly? |
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Post by pepoluan on Sept 25, 2009 14:33:48 GMT
I think troll has a point: she didn’t handle Jack as competently as she did handle virtually everyone else. When a rather menacing Minotaur appeared out of the dark, she kept her cool: “Hello, Sir. My name is Antimony.” When Coyote started acting inappropriately, she gave him a good spanking. And still, Jack gives her the creeps, rendering her incapable of dealing with the situation other than by retreat. She’s held her ground when confronted by much scarier creatures than him and has proven to be capable of manhandling other boys her age, so what’s the issue with Jack? After finding out of the etheric spider, I do think it's the 'aura' (or whatever the etheric term is) of the spider making her queasy. |
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Post by the bandit on Sept 25, 2009 14:35:41 GMT
This whole chapter, people are kind of pointing at Annie's attitude in the chapter and saying "See! See! She's a social outcast!" .... Of course everyone does have their own take on things. And people will bend situations to fit their point of view, or their side of a discussion. So... yeah. Yet you seem uninterested in my counter-wager. =) I don't think Annie is handling the Jack situation any more poorly than she is handling the Jeanne situation. If the issue at hand is beyond her ken, based on these two situations I would say Annie tends to simply put one foot in front of the other as she slowly gathers more information. |
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Post by Casey on Sept 25, 2009 14:36:18 GMT
Of course everyone does have their own take on things. And people will bend situations to fit their point of view, or their side of a discussion. So... yeah. Wouldn’t it suffice if everyone just offered their take on whatever is the issue at hand, rather than, again and again, agonizing over other participants’ inability to see the world in just the same way as oneself sees it so clearly? Why do you keep arguing your own points, asking direct questions, and then follow it up with a post that seems to be directed at me, disparaging me for continuing the conversation? That sword cuts both ways. Or are you trying to make this Yet Another thread about me? Or is it that you want to be able to keep restating -your- point of view, but you don't want me to have the same permission? Congrats on turning another thread personal. |
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Post by Casey on Sept 25, 2009 14:37:44 GMT
This whole chapter, people are kind of pointing at Annie's attitude in the chapter and saying "See! See! She's a social outcast!" .... Of course everyone does have their own take on things. And people will bend situations to fit their point of view, or their side of a discussion. So... yeah. Yet you seem uninterested in my counter-wager. =) I'll have to look that up, I may have missed it. |
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IMHO you dropped half a pinch of Epic Epicness into an event completely mundane for all its participants and quite forgettable for most.
