Miri
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Posts: 211
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Post by Miri on Sept 23, 2009 22:24:31 GMT
This page (and the one before it) makes me sad. Poor Annie and Kat. I can completely understand the other character's reactions to Annie, though, thinking of her as an Ice Queen and such (even if Jack's the only one who would say it out loud). It's not that they're bad or judgmental people (well, any moreso than kids this age would be naturally) - Annie gives off the vibe that she doesn't want to be talked to, so they don't talk to her. Rumors must have abounded about her pet demon-wolf, making her even scarier. She's reasonably intelligent (no Kat, but not overtly struggling) and incredibly stoic. Taken all together, she's intimidating. And unless she starts opening up to her other classmates more, they're never going to be comfortable around her at all. People, as a rule, don't treat others as they wish to be treated; they treat others as the others indicate they wish to be treated (excluding the small minority that is totally oblivious and the even smaller minority that goes out of its way to hurt people). Even when those signals are misleading, they're there and they're hard to train yourself to ignore. Sorry for the dissertation; this page touched an issue that's been on my mind a lot lately. ^.^;; All I can say is that from where I'm sitting, Tom has a remarkable grasp of the mindset of this age group.
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Post by wynne on Sept 23, 2009 22:26:20 GMT
I feel sorry John, he is so much in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know when I was at school I wouldn't just walk up to someone I had never spoken to to ask them to a favour, so if I needed to talk to someone unfamiliar I would approach them though a friend of theirs who I did speak to. I get the impression that this is what John is doing, perhaps he has spoken to Kat a few times in class but not to Annie, who is quieter. But because Kat is all upset about what Jack said she is taking it out on John and making him seem like a bad guy! Such bad timing. I agree with that completely, as well as everyone whose said from their own personal experiences at school that Annie might be going through the same sort of social awkwardness thing. I especially have to agree with Nut, and I'll back that up as well with my own experience: I have a few good friends, but not a "best friend". That being said, all of my good/close friends DO have one, and sometimes two best friends, none of which is me. Also, most of my friends have different interests than me (i.e. my oldest friend is a great athlete and really into sports, while I suck at them and couldn't care less who wins, with the exception of the Yankees.) Plus, in middle school I didn't have any classes with my then best friends, and then had to find a practically brand new group of friends who already knew each other. Add in the fact that a lot of what I like is really obscure to everyone else outside my family, and the result is that I spend most of my time with my family, while my friends hang out with each other more often, and when I DO hang out with them, I feel like a third wheel because they're talking about stuff that happened when I wasn't around, which is amplified by the fact that there isn't much common ground anymore besides a few movies and school-related stuff. So the fact is, I don't like talking to people I'm not really close with, because I don't know what to talk about, and because they will be completely lost when I start rambling on about some 60's TV show when they talk about NCIS. And then the effect kind of snowballs in a vicious cycle. And so, while Annie lives in a fictional universe, what Nut and the others have been saying on social awkwardness makes perfect sense, because unless you're already friends, trying to participate in an already formed group of friends is difficult, and with bigger stuff on your mind (like where your dad is, what the hell's going on at your school, and the fact that your mom just died and you had to lead her to the next step yourself), being social is just too much effort. It's not that Annie's necessarily antisocial or doesn't have the necessary social skills, she's just been too distracted to even think about getting to know her classmates, much less make friends with them. And so, when they offer to include her, she isn't sure how to react and thus seems awkward or standoffish.
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Post by todd on Sept 23, 2009 22:29:19 GMT
One other thought. John is unwilling to speak to Annie - even chooses to approach her through Kat instead - but still wants her to use the Blinker Stone to provide a campfire for them. This seems a bit unsettling - he and his friends will leave her out, but still want to make use of her talents. Maybe they don't mean it that way, but the implications of "She's a freak and we don't want to have anything to do with her - but she could be useful to us at times" aren't good.
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 23, 2009 22:50:03 GMT
or is it because most kids think of her as a bit of a celebrity (either due to her own exploits, or due to being the daughter of Surma) or do they really just not like her? It's an aberration: we observe Annie and her "exploits". E.g. were invited to that meeting and knew Coyote was here and he's a deity exactly 2 ( two) of all other kids. Seniors and mediums-in-training at that. Let's count: what we know her classmates saw until she tricked Elsies with a blinker was: - She and Kat brought Basil.
- She lagged behind and got trapped, injured or something in that
dragon broken roof incident. Nothing special.
- She knows a thing or two about the medicine. As her entry on a sci fair shows. And the less said about it, the better.
- Once she vanished for a day and there was a search or something, and she got detention. Well, finding an adventure on one's ass is a good Court tradition (see Power Station and flashbacks). But nothing very special.
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Jones An unknown awesome lady, perhaps one of teachers, asked her out at one of lessons. Later she got some special class with older kids. Interesting topic for three hours or so total of conversation on the week -- mainly because of the mysterious lady. But not very special.
- She may be found in Kat's (yet another loner) company or maybe even near those freaky Gamma and Zimmy... Should someone ever need her - but what for? That was rather improbable event until today.
So, Basil is the only point that really counts toward the awesomeness score. Surma is definitely notable for those few who are aware of such things, but as far as other kids are concerned, she's just one of Court people gone so long ago they probably don't even know her name, unless they saw mr. Eglamore's souvenir. Maybe John is hesitant to talk to Annie because he has a crush on her. No. AnnieXJack shippers unite!*urk* *strangles self* Or still JackXKat. After a good scuffle, obviously. pity she does not have her pair of wire strippers to threaten John. " The trouble with wire strippers is that you never seem to have one handy when you really need it". ;D WOW All the quotes in one reply... I feel like TBeholder! When ye'll start, i'll tell ye. I identify with Annie because I can make magic fire. You won. Draw a fried cookie on the fuselage, or something.
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on Sept 23, 2009 23:20:25 GMT
Now that Annie has been made aware of her distant behavior, perhaps she will put forth some effort and make friends... thanks to Jack. All according to plan. What a guy!
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Post by Casey on Sept 23, 2009 23:24:03 GMT
Oh, yes, this was all a plan by the well-meaning Jack into getting Annie to become more social with her friends and therefore become a better person. Way to go Jack! It's a good thing Annie's got someone like Jack, always looking out for her best interests even when she's being a meanie bo beanie.
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Post by crysiana on Sept 23, 2009 23:27:23 GMT
So, Basil is the only point that really counts toward the awesomeness score. I'd add to this that another other thing Annie did that might have gotten some attention was her throwing Winsbury in gym class. Which, yeah, is somewhat impressive, but given the level of talent at the school (I'm thinking the archery contest and swordfighting being taught) it still wouldn't put her really out there in terms of skill.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 23, 2009 23:42:54 GMT
Annie did save the day during Dr Disaster's Enigmaron simulator, that one time. That's got to be worth a few Cool Points.
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on Sept 23, 2009 23:55:21 GMT
Oh, yes, this was all a plan by the well-meaning Jack into getting Annie to become more social with her friends and therefore become a better person. Way to go Jack! It's a good thing Annie's got someone like Jack, always looking out for her best interests even when she's being a meanie bo beanie. You should have seen what he scared away by unlocking Rey's Feral Form, just in the nick of time.
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 0:14:26 GMT
Annie did save the day during Dr Disaster's Enigmaron simulator, that one time. That's got to be worth a few Cool Points. You know, this is interesting... all this talk of what past history we have to draw on in order to figure out what we really think the other kids really think of Annie, and this is the first time this scene has been mentioned. Even I forgot about this one. Good job Mezzaphor! Now I have to go back and actually read that page...
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 0:22:40 GMT
Mezzaphor, this was a trove of insightful stuff. 1) 178, last panel Notice Annie says "my friends", not "my classmates". This is a rare insight into how Annie thinks of the others. One could argue that she wouldn't feel that way unless she'd had interactions with them (offscreen?) that would lead her to feel that way. 2) General happiness at Carver "saving the day" and this is pretty much GC's version of recess, so, it looks like Annie does in fact 'play well with others'... once she allowed herself to in this chapter. But the others seem to have no problem playing with her. (Keep in mind that they aren't just happy because she's saving them, because they know it's a game and that they aren't in any real danger). 3) the really important page which contains enthusiastic encouragement from her friends, acknowledgment that she has made their play time more enjoyable, compliments (even from Winsbury), and acknowledgment from Annie that she enjoyed playing with them. All of this could not only be used to debunk the theory that the others don't like her or see her as unapproachable... it could ALSO be used to debunk the theory that Annie is severely introverted (in the textbook sense of being completely drained by social interaction).
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Post by Max on Sept 24, 2009 0:26:43 GMT
I am really enjoying these recent threads, because so much of what people are saying echoes my own experiences with social interactions. Especially wynne's post. Just substitute my name in wherever she wrote "I" and you have my life. I really don't think that John is a malicious person. I agree with Mishmash that he is just so used to talking to Kat that he didn't even consider asking Annie directly. That said, it's still rude of him, so it's nice to see Kat calling him out. Everybody feels uncomfortable when they get called out, but hopefully John will have the grace to admit his fault. In boarding schools and private schools (posh schools I suppose would be the catch-all term) teachers traditionally call students by their last name. This would extend to students calling each other by their last names too, but friends like Kat and Annie would call each other by their first names. That makes sense, but then why would Kat call Jack by his first name despite her clear dislike for him?
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Dentrala
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"I absolutely did not expect thiiiissss!!"
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Post by Dentrala on Sept 24, 2009 0:38:22 GMT
Annie referred to him as Jack too, after the blinker stone montage.
Annie needs to realize that if there is not a legend about a friend, they will not be a good friend. Kat's an exception.
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 1:19:10 GMT
I would suspect that everyone called him Jack because he was introduced as Jack at the Power Station, and they wouldn't have any way of knowing what his last name was until they heard the LC say it. Jack isn't in their class, remember. He's in QS. (Plus, of course, they couldn't have been calling him Hyland because Tom was saving that tidbit of information.)
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Sept 24, 2009 3:09:01 GMT
One other thought. John is unwilling to speak to Annie - even chooses to approach her through Kat instead - but still wants her to use the Blinker Stone to provide a campfire for them. This seems a bit unsettling - he and his friends will leave her out, but still want to make use of her talents. Maybe they don't mean it that way, but the implications of "She's a freak and we don't want to have anything to do with her - but she could be useful to us at times" aren't good. That's totally unfair. Just last night she gave them the fire and then indicated she didn't actually want anything to do with them. So, hey, it's not his fault if he thinks "eh, I'll just ask for the fire, it's not like she's interested in us peons anyway".
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Post by Goatmon on Sept 24, 2009 4:03:23 GMT
The truth hurts sometimes.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Sept 24, 2009 4:08:59 GMT
ALLRIGHT, LISTEN UP PEOPLE! I am going to make a Gunnerkrigg Wager! I wager one piece of sucky Gunnerkrigg art, hand drawn by me, that -if- Annie does go do "the fire thing" again, someone around the fire will ask her to stay with them. If Annie doesn't do "the fire thing", all bets are off. If you take the bet and no one asks her to stay by the fire by the end of the chapter, you will (each) get one sucky piece of hand-drawn GC art from me. If someone -does- ask her to stay, then each person who takes the bet will have to draw -me- a hand-drawn piece of GC art. I don't care if it's sucky as long as it's as good as you can do. No intentionally sucky art. Who wants to take this wager? WAGER: Taken! Because I think you're right and someone will ask her to stay, and I've yet to draw any GC fanart. Now's a good a time as any, yeah? EDIT: just noticed this Maybe John is hesitant to talk to Annie because he has a crush on her. No.Well...if anything, that reinforces case's spec. It doesn't tell us anything about what John's future holds, except that it won't involve Margo. At least for the next 20 or so years.
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 4:38:44 GMT
I should mention that I WAS kidding about John having a crush on Annie... just in case anyone was worried!
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 24, 2009 5:18:12 GMT
EDIT: just noticed this Well...if anything, that reinforces case's spec. It doesn't tell us anything about what John's future holds, except that it won't involve Margo. At least for the next 20 or so years. <taking this entirely too seriously>As shown here John and Margo both like each other. The "Time for Music" bonus page occurs right after this chapter, and the flash-forwards establish Margo's fallen head-over-heels for John[a href=". So the 21 years later"]. So the 21 years later[/a] picture is rather ambiguous. Margo is dreaming of John from 21 years ago; she has a ring on her hand, tears on her cheeks, and a smile on her face. So it could be read as Margo looking back on her life and wondering ruefully why she let John get away. Or it could be read as Margo, married to the man of her dreams (literally) fondly looking back on the first moment that she fell madly in love with him. So John and Margo could already be a couple, or not; I don't think the evidence is strong enough to point either way. I should mention that I WAS kidding about John having a crush on Annie... just in case anyone was worried! Too late. I already wrote my 300-page Annie/John fanfic, so I might as well post it.
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Nut
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Post by Nut on Sept 24, 2009 8:40:07 GMT
Mezzaphor, this was a trove of insightful stuff. 1) 178, last panel Notice Annie says "my friends", not "my classmates". This is a rare insight into how Annie thinks of the others. One could argue that she wouldn't feel that way unless she'd had interactions with them (offscreen?) that would lead her to feel that way. 2) General happiness at Carver "saving the day" and this is pretty much GC's version of recess, so, it looks like Annie does in fact 'play well with others'... once she allowed herself to in this chapter. But the others seem to have no problem playing with her. (Keep in mind that they aren't just happy because she's saving them, because they know it's a game and that they aren't in any real danger). 3) the really important page which contains enthusiastic encouragement from her friends, acknowledgment that she has made their play time more enjoyable, compliments (even from Winsbury), and acknowledgment from Annie that she enjoyed playing with them. All of this could not only be used to debunk the theory that the others don't like her or see her as unapproachable... it could ALSO be used to debunk the theory that Annie is severely introverted (in the textbook sense of being completely drained by social interaction). Nice analysis of that chapter. I forget about it a lot, but the social interaction between Annie and her classmates strikes me every time I read it. While it’s great to see how they completely accept her, it’s obvious that Annie is out of her element. She finds the pretend adventure “a little silly”, because she’s constantly dealing with real adventures, but she tries to participate for the sake of her friends. In the end she enjoys it, but she knows she’s got more important things to do in the real world. Your analysis made me go back through the archives to dredge up all instances of social interaction between Antimony and her class, just to see how it’s progressed. Chapter Two: First instance of Annie interacting with classmates. Annie isn’t bothered by Willie’s comment; she knows he’s being a jerk, and stares him down accordingly. She’s aware that she missed the usual forming of acquaintances within a class, but she understands that it’s not her fault, because circumstances prevented her from having time. This is all shown as a contrast with Kat’s efforts at being friendly to Annie. The chapter ends with Kat and Annie shocking their classmates, indicating that they’re way out of the other students’ league. Since Annie got to the school year late and sleeps at the very top of the girl’s dorm, presumably as far away from other students as is possible in a dormitory, the other students probably don’t cross paths with her very often. This presentation is likely the first time Annie’s had a chance to talk to her class. It’s an intimidating way to start. Chapter Three: Next, Annie flips Winsbury during gym. We see the other kids whispering amongst themselves, probably amazed at what Annie just did. I can see them muttering, “Who’s that kid? That’s the one who brought the minotaur to class! Where’s she from?”, etc., trying to find out more about her without actually approaching her. The next thing that happens is that all of the girls except Annie evacuate the dorm, and then Annie’s in the hospital, and Kat is the only one who’s come to see her. The other girls probably don’t even know where she is, much less have any idea what transpired between her and Reynardine. Chapter Four: Annie helps Mort scare another student. Paz has no way of knowing that Annie was involved, but if anyone found out, it wouldn’t come across as being very personable with the other kids. Chapter Five: The class doesn’t react very well to Annie’s presentation. It seems she’s being seen as weird and difficult to approach, especially when she keeps to lonely areas like the study hall, where she runs into Zimmy and Gamma. The Spacemonauts chapter is the next instance where Annie is shown having any interaction with her classmates, which Casey already analyzed nicely. It seems that this is the first time her classmates have a chance to get to know her, and if so, participating in their game breaks down a lot of the social barrier and shows that she can be a kid just like them. As Casey pointed out, though, Annie refers to them as “friends”, suggesting that she’s had contact with them before. This contact could be minimal; simply a passing hello would probably count as a friendly gesture to Annie. Chapter Thirteen: Annie is completely left out of Aly and Kat’s discussion. The other students at school are probably involved in similar concerns about popular culture, which Annie doesn’t care about. As I said, completely different interests. The Power Station chapter is the next opportunity for interaction with Annie’s class. As already noted, Annie lets Kat do the talking to the other kids, speaking up only to Zimmy and Gamma. The kids don’t seem to mind Annie being there, but there’s no conversation between them. The others do think that Zimmy is a freak, but don’t seem to care that Annie knows her. This is basically all the social interaction Annie has had with her class until the current chapter. The major incidents—Spacemonauts and Power Station—were both brief, lasting for less than a day. Now Annie has to spend several nights living in close contact with the other kids. It’s awkward. She doesn’t know them that well and is more concerned that one of them has etheric spider issues (and could potentially be dangerous) than with making friends, even though the others seem accepting of her. As far as I can tell, she isn’t bothered that she’s an outcast. She knows better than to let Jack’s taunting get to her. More likely, the sudden pressure on her to get out and make friends is an obstacle to the things she really wants to be doing.
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Sept 24, 2009 9:49:45 GMT
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Post by todd on Sept 24, 2009 10:49:02 GMT
The apparent discrepancy between, in Chapter Ten, Annie thinking of the other children (besides Kat) as her friends and their cheering her on after her victory over the aliens, and in all the other chapters, her isolation from everyone except Kat, made me wonder whether Chapter Ten was fully canon. The evidence is that it is, but it does seem as if everyone forgot about the events in it afterwards.
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Post by Jiminiminy on Sept 24, 2009 11:17:58 GMT
Ah yes, because I'm sure that everyone remembers specific classes from about a year back. Besides, didn't Randy do a class like that every month? I'm sure that other such events would make you forget a specific one, especially when you're twelve.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Sept 24, 2009 11:28:13 GMT
I think you're vastly overthinking this, Todd. There's no discrepancy here - Winsbury doesn't need to be a jerk all the time. There's likewise no reason that her classmate wouldn't cheer her success at the simulation -- the same way that (just a few strips back!) Winsbury thanked Annie and everyone showed gladness at the magical fire. Shall we also start doubting the canonicity of the magical fire strip, just because it showed people having a positive reaction to Annie?
Nor do I find Annie calling her classmates at that chapter "friends" very significant, since at that age the word can just mean "acquientance of my own age I'm not hostile to".
Forgotten the events in it? It was a simulation. It was a game - we hear they have a similar one every month. Annie didn't really save their lives from anything, so what is there for them to really remember? That she ended up playing a protagonist's role in 1 out of about 9 simulation games they have every year? I'm sure some people remember it vaguely, but there's not much significance to it for anyone other than Annie and Kat.
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mjh
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Posts: 179
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Post by mjh on Sept 24, 2009 11:38:18 GMT
The apparent discrepancy between, in Chapter Ten, Annie thinking of the other children (besides Kat) as her friends and their cheering her on after her victory over the aliens, and in all the other chapters, her isolation from everyone except Kat, made me wonder whether Chapter Ten was fully canon. The evidence is that it is, but it does seem as if everyone forgot about the events in it afterwards. Because it wasn’t real. If you are fully aware you are in no real danger, someone rescuing you is no big deal. Annie pretends she has to save her friends (and that these are her friends) from mortal peril, her classmates pretend she’s the hero saving the day and so on, but in the end it is all just a simulation. But maybe there is a parallel between the Spacemonauts chapter and this one. As a Spacemonaut, Annie initially didn’t want to play along, she preferred to be left alone (“The others are going on ahead!” “You can join them if you wish. I’m sure I’ll catch up eventually.”). When she realizes it is expected of her to rescue the others (“It is up to you, Spacemonaut Carver, to rescue them and complete the mission!”), she reluctantly enters the game for real and does all the silly things she’s supposed to do, even when she’s well aware of how silly it is (“I know I shouldn’t, but I can’t help but wonder how creatures without arms could make such a device. And tie my friends up. Oh well, here I go.”, “Now say something witty to the Enigmarons and finish the mission!” “Do I have to?”). In this chapter, she clearly prefers to be left alone as well; she keeps her interaction with the others to a minimum. Still, what if there should be something really dangerous lurking this time – the ghost, say? That would give her a chance to save the day for real (with bonus points for Annie if it should involve cooperating with others – and Kat doesn’t count this time).
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Post by todd on Sept 24, 2009 12:10:33 GMT
Yes, I'll admit that I was overthinking the canonicity of Chapter Ten. Though a lot of that stemmed more from the chapter itself seeming more like a break from "Gunnerkrigg Court" (as "City Face" was - though "City Face" was a more explicit break) by doing a sci-fi parody but giving the lead roles to the children in Annie's class and providing a rationale to link it to the regular strip in the form of a simulation - that it seemed, simply, different from the rest of "Gunnerkrigg Court", almost like an Elseworlds story.
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Post by pepoluan on Sept 24, 2009 12:58:12 GMT
I should mention that I WAS kidding about John having a crush on Annie... just in case anyone was worried! Too late. I already wrote my 300-page Annie/John fanfic, so I might as well post it. That. was. fast.
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Post by nikita on Sept 24, 2009 13:00:51 GMT
I guess Annie just never took those opportunities to make friends with anybody.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 24, 2009 13:44:51 GMT
Very cool analysis of Annie's interactions. One more data point: At the very beginning of ch 14, Annie's class is celebrating the end of the school year. Kat and Annie are in the back, seemingly apart from the other students, and Annie is the only person who isn't happy. Yes, I'll admit that I was overthinking the canonicity of Chapter Ten. Though a lot of that stemmed more from the chapter itself seeming more like a break from "Gunnerkrigg Court" (as "City Face" was - though "City Face" was a more explicit break) by doing a sci-fi parody but giving the lead roles to the children in Annie's class and providing a rationale to link it to the regular strip in the form of a simulation - that it seemed, simply, different from the rest of "Gunnerkrigg Court", almost like an Elseworlds story. Tom said that City Face is canon too.
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Post by Casey on Sept 24, 2009 13:48:19 GMT
I guess Annie just never took those opportunities to make friends with anybody. It's weird to me how I can make a long, multi-paragraph post showing how she has, and then someone else makes a short, single-sentence post that is completely the opposite. Not that I actually expect that I'm going to influence anyone else's opinion. I knew going into it that no matter what evidence I gave, there would be those that found a way to diminish, rationalize, or dismiss my evidence. It's just that it's always a little unnerving when my thorough analysis is undone with a single sentence! Oh well. I think the psychodynamic is interesting here... many people want so much for people to think as well as (or as poorly as) they do about certain characters. There are people who want everyone to like Jack and hate Annie, and there are people who want everyone to love Annie and hate Jack. It makes you wonder how Tom was able to write a story that could cause different people to see the same things in complete opposite ways. Is he just that good? Or is he just so vague and stringing along mystery after mystery that we're left to fill in the blanks with our own experiences and hopes, as we've seen in this thread? I don't know. It's something to ponder though.
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