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Post by fidodo on Sept 21, 2009 9:08:26 GMT
I think Jack took the stone out of curiosity about the etherics. Since he wanted to "ask her about it" I'm sure he just wanted to study it for a little while, and not keep it. For sure borrowing without asking isn't ok, but considering the last time he talked to Annie he got a giant wolf threatening him it makes sense why he doesn't want to talk to her now. I still think Reynardine's reaction was too much. Threatening violence when there's no chance of physical harm is never ok in my book. I'm thinking Annie's expression is actually one of pity. I think she's trying to get Kat to lay off because she understands that Jack is suffering some sort of ailment. My interpretation was that Jack's comments hit a little close to home and Annie doesn't want to continue the conversation. I think Jack's expression at the end works with that as it's a kind of satisfied at getting back type expression. EDIT: While Jack is being a jerk here, he was just minding his own business trying to help a cow when he's confronted and called a creep for no good reason. If I were in his situation I think I'd try to get a few jabs in as well.
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Post by Casey on Sept 21, 2009 9:15:49 GMT
Threatening violence when there's no chance of physical harm is never ok in my book. Could I ask you to please explain how you reached the conclusion that there was no chance of physical harm?
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Post by fidodo on Sept 21, 2009 9:19:09 GMT
He was being very forward and closing in on her, but what do you expect him to do? Hit her? That would make no sense at all. He was asking questions in a forward way but I fail to see how that situation could have escalated to Jack assaulting her.
Not to mention, there was no "sorry, but can you give me some space", or "back off", or anything. It was straight to giant threatening wolf that looks like it's about to eat me.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Sept 21, 2009 9:30:05 GMT
Jack's not stupid, he'd know there's no way he could keep the stone for too long in his possession. It's quite possible he believed that, if he didn't know that Annie could locate it and even spy through it etherically -- which he doesn't seem to have known since he was suprised when he felt someone look at him a few strips back. Heh. The mood-shift between Jack's first appearance and his current one is so drastic that I would not even call him Jack anymore, let alone claim that he's "just a kid growing up". I don't believe this is Jack anymore. I believe it's the spider demon. If it's not *completely* in control of Jack, it must atleast be in control of his emotions.
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Post by Casey on Sept 21, 2009 9:31:52 GMT
He was being very forward and closing in on her, but what do you expect him to do? Hit her? That would make no sense at all. He was asking questions in a forward way but I fail to see how that situation could have escalated to Jack assaulting her. Couldn't all of this also be said of Reynardine in the same scene?
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Sept 21, 2009 9:38:00 GMT
The underlying reason is given by Kat in the very first panel -- he had stolen Annie's stone.
He replies to that accusation not with an apology or even with a real explanation, but with insults contained in wording that's typical of what I'd call "male privilege" -- 'Ice Queen', as if Annie has any obligation to be friendly with him or with anyone else, and how her lack of friendliness entitles him to poke around her stuff.
I'd call Jack's attitude inexcusable if I still believed this was Jack we are seeing.
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Post by fidodo on Sept 21, 2009 9:43:17 GMT
He was called a creep before the accusation, and that earlier comment was in response to him being near a cow, ergo, they assumed he was doing something bad to him. Personally, I don't like it when people make assumptions about me. If I were a moody teenager, I'd give some lip back.
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Post by Rasselas on Sept 21, 2009 9:44:45 GMT
Jack's not stupid, he'd know there's no way he could keep the stone for too long in his possession. It's quite possible he believed that, if he didn't know that Annie could locate it and even spy through it etherically -- which he doesn't seem to have known since he was suprised when he felt someone look at him a few strips back. The blinker stone is clearly a valuable item, capable of producing specifically attuned fire when needed. For such a valuable item, it's logical that someone would come looking for it. As for his surprise, it was because of the etheric-spying properties of the stone, which he really wouldn't have known about. Heh. The mood-shift between Jack's first appearance and his current one is so drastic that I would not even call him Jack anymore, let alone claim that he's "just a kid growing up". I don't believe this is Jack anymore. I believe it's the spider demon. If it's not *completely* in control of Jack, it must atleast be in control of his emotions. That's why I said "unconventional environment." In a normal school, it'd just be a kid nicking another student's fancy gadget just to get a good glance, and then returning it when challenged. At Gunnerkrigg Court, it's spider demons. *shudder* I don't really think Jack isn't in control anymore, but he's clearly affected. How much and in what way, it's hard to tell.
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Post by hawkeye on Sept 21, 2009 9:45:01 GMT
Hmm. I agree that he kinda has a point for the first half of todays strip. I wouldn't take his word for it though, that the others don't want to talk to her.
However, he is also being quite creepy. It does make for a better story if the creepy guy doesnt just spout nonsense, but kinda makes sense.
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Post by Casey on Sept 21, 2009 9:45:06 GMT
Here is another question for you guys to talk about (because I'm going to bed).
On this page, is Annie being astute and wise beyond her years and using her skill in mediation to realize that the best solution to the confrontation is to remove themselves from it because it cannot be won and therefore it is best not to engage Jack's behavior, or, is she running away from confrontation because she is introverted and socially awkward and standoffish? (It's probably obvious that I think the former.)
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Post by hawkeye on Sept 21, 2009 9:49:25 GMT
^ I would assume mostly the first case. Or possibly because she's nervous about the spider thing and doesnt want to go running into a situation she doesn't know anything about.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Sept 21, 2009 10:07:09 GMT
I don't think introversion or social awkwardness really has anything to do with it this time - I was introverted (still am in most ways) and if someone insulted me at school I would be just as willing as anyone to insult back or get into a fight.
I think it's just the first case: Annie's emotional maturity. She realizes there's no point in getting into an argument this time, as there's something much worse going on with Jack than ordinary jerk-dom.
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Post by wanderer on Sept 21, 2009 11:15:21 GMT
I think we're losing Jack. The cool guy we met on the roof is disappearing, and I don't like what's taking his place. That spider is too suspicious to be a coincidence, and while I don't know what it's doing to him, I'm afraid it's getting worse. We need to see him etherically again sometime in the future. If the spiderwebs are spreading, that could tell us something.
The kids really need a professional here to help with this. The critters of Sunny Birmingham are on a whole difference level from ghosts. I'm not sure Annie has the knowledge or the ability to deal with it.
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Post by hawkeye on Sept 21, 2009 11:44:22 GMT
I wonder if Jack isn't simply becoming obssessed with what he saw in zimmy!Birmingham. I can't remember his explanation for how he found the rain-making experiment thing, but it could possibly be he's one of those people who likes to explore and find out about stuff. Hence he explores a bit of the court and finds the experiment. But then he goes to zimmyland and it's obviously a harrowing experience and now he *has* to find out what it was and why it happened. He starts losing sleep, starts acting a bit weirdly and making bad decisions and coming across as just plain creepy.
Or maybe the spider is controlling his brain. Who knows?
^Some help from the grownups *may* be the sensible thing to do, but until Jacks actions go beyond 'a bit creepy' i cant see Annie turning to anyone. Except perhaps Jones.
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Post by tyler on Sept 21, 2009 11:54:18 GMT
I saw that too, Callidus.
I also see that whether it's Jack being Jack or someone else being Jack (and the cheek scratching only enhances my feelings he may be possessed) this conversation's definitely involved a lot of nastiness on his part. The grin is something very creepy, though.
As for the stone, I figured his lack of denial was evidence that he was planning on keeping it for at least as long as it took to figure out, and in his mind he was stealing. I do see how it could be a case of "nothing I can say could convince you otherwise."
On the other hand, the fact that he proceeds to dig himself a deeper hole with the girls says that he doesn't seem to care what they think about him. Not really. His mannerisms and behavior say sociopath to me.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 21, 2009 11:57:57 GMT
Jack is scratching his cheek. Almost as if he felt a spider walking across his face. Ok, maybe that belongs in the wild speculation thread... (Has anyone seen Zimmy scratch like that?) Oh, I don't think that's really wildly speculative. I could have sworn I'd seen him doing that before, too, although I can't find it right now. (In his previous appearance he does spend a lot of time touching his face in various places, but that could just be coincidence, I suppose.) My impression of this page: Jack is straight up acting like a giant creepy jackass. He didn't really seem hurt or offended (c.f. several panels worth of Slasher Smile). He was going out of his way to offend Annie and Kat. I wonder why? Was it just out of the aforesaid jackassery, or is he trying to make them angry as part of some kind of scheme?
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Post by tyler on Sept 21, 2009 12:04:33 GMT
Provoking Kat into getting into attacking him could get Kat in trouble, which might see Annie left alone and "vulnerable."
It might also give the etheric spider an opportunity to do something.
I think the reason Annie's leading Kat away is because she's considered these options, too. I'm seeing pity less than I did. I see hurt at first, and then concern. She's fearful. And she drags Kat away because she realizes this is a situation where Kat can't defend her.
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Post by todd on Sept 21, 2009 12:19:59 GMT
Even if Annie tells the teachers about Jack's condition, I wonder whether they could help. Nobody at the Court seems to know anything about Zimmy's nightmare city, except for Zimmy and Gamma themselves. It might be up to Zimmy to find a solution - and since she doesn't like anyone except for Gamma, I don't see much hope of her cooperating.
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Post by dragonsong12 on Sept 21, 2009 13:29:22 GMT
I wouldn't take his word for it though, that the others don't want to talk to her. He is right, but I never thought for a moment that the others didn't want to talk to her. Annie isolates other people herself. He seems to point it out on this page. Everyone seems all right with her, and wouldn't have turned her away of she stuck around, she's the one that leaves. So it's a little weird to me that Jack goes that route with his mocking, since we haven't really seen too much evidence of other people shunning Annie, it seems almost to be the other way around. She doesn't bother with them, so they don't both with her, is all.
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Post by the bandit on Sept 21, 2009 14:07:50 GMT
Awesome page.
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jon77
Full Member
Posts: 245
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Post by jon77 on Sept 21, 2009 14:13:18 GMT
As for the possession discussion, this may be relevant: Jack seems to have picked up a tendency to say "yeah, yeah" or "right, right", as if his mind is elsewhere. It first started right after the visit to Zimmingham, on the rooftop, when Kat said to him "Bye, Jack" (oh what a flirt). We also saw it a couple of times in his aggressive conversation with Annie.
It'll be interesting to find out more about that. Maybe Zimmy or Reynardine can shed some light on it.
I don't think he's possessed, I just think his perception of reality is being slowly warped.
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Post by Snes on Sept 21, 2009 14:31:45 GMT
It seems that, when Jack is smiling, his right eyebrow is arched while his left one is lowered. I noticed this when reviewing his appearance in the previous chapter as well.
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Post by pepoluan on Sept 21, 2009 14:39:06 GMT
Is it the lighting or has Jack's skin gained a grey-ish tinge?
Or is it just me?
And grinning!creepy!Jack on last panel is FTW. (and a jarring contrast to cheshire!Kat some time back)
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 21, 2009 14:50:48 GMT
It might be up to Zimmy to find a solution - and since she doesn't like anyone except for Gamma, I don't see much hope of her cooperating. If there's any connection between the spiders on Jack's face and the Moneyspider from the City Face comments (and even likely if there isn't), I'm going to guess that the intentions of Jack, the entity assaulting Jack, or both towards Zimmy are not going to be kind. If she has any way of helping, she might do it out of self-preservation.
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kefka
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by kefka on Sept 21, 2009 15:02:46 GMT
They probably talked about Annie after she left awkwardly when she made the magical fire. I wouldn't be surprised if what he says is true. (Maybe this is why Tom said everyone would have a problem with this chapter?) Obviously they don't treat her badly when she's present, but I think Jack is probably saying the truth. I liked this page, Annie can get a little... "Mary Sue-y" at times, so this is a good thing for her character. Edit: Just look at this page, the first panel: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=612
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Post by xanbcoo on Sept 21, 2009 16:16:23 GMT
Hmm. I agree that he kinda has a point for the first half of todays strip. I wouldn't take his word for it though, that the others don't want to talk to her. However, he is also being quite creepy. It does make for a better story if the creepy guy doesnt just spout nonsense, but kinda makes sense. I think it's more that Jack (or whoever might be in control of Jack) is making intentionally inflammatory remarks. Ok, you can argue that "he kinda has a point" up until the last 4 panels where his face indicates he's taking increasing delight in hitting all of Kat's soft spots. Even if you can somehow forgive him for basically saying he was entitled to take Annie' stone (whether or not he previously knew it was hers), the rest of his remarks in the strip are, as someone else already said, pretty indefensible. He's stirring up trouble on purpose, and seems to be enjoying it.
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Post by gaia on Sept 21, 2009 16:20:02 GMT
So they could have known Annie could recall the stone to her. Is it possible, though, that they could have thought she just had it in her hand all along, and that the frown of concentration was just preparing the magic fire? I still feel pretty sorry for Jack. In the Power Station chapter, he was a fun, friendly kid - weird sense of humour, yeah, but likeable. I think he's just being influenced by the facespider now as well as still freaked out from Zimmingham, and it makes sense to me that he'd lash out at people. Especially Annie. From the scratching, I think the facespider is deliberately interfering to isolate him from her, in case she could use some etheric bugspray on it. His behaviour just seems to be extremes to me - before she shows up he's helping out a robot cow, and the touching in the last panel looked affectionate to me. Then bam, creepmeister. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=614 The legs are right next to his eye, too. That's what Reynardine uses to possess people. Both? He wants to find out what Zimmytopia is and the spider's nudging it towards obsession. Anyway, I'm going to give Jack the benefit of the doubt until we all know how far he's in control of his own actions/brain/soul/whatever. Maybe Annie is just retreating in order to have another, harder look at him through the stone where he can't actually see her doing it. I figure she had more moral strength than abandoning someone who clearly needs help with their giant disgusting face spider problem just because they insulted her. (ETA: Unless she could only see him the first time because he had her stone - okay, I need to go reread Blink.)
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Post by Casey on Sept 21, 2009 16:47:17 GMT
If Gamma were to touch Jack within the ethereum, or within Zimmy's world specifically, would she GOP the spider curse out of him, or would she GOP Jack himself out of existence?
These are the questions that can keep you up at night...
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Post by Mishmash on Sept 21, 2009 17:02:23 GMT
I thought Annie was just steering Kat away because she didn't want a big confrontation. It did seem like Kat was on the verge of attacking Jack, she is furious. It looks like Annie is dragging (or at least leading) Kat away by the arm in the last panel. After all, Kat could probably lay a dude out.
So now they are going to walk away and Kat will be seething and Annie will be trying to calm her down while also feeling sad because those comments Jack made hit home! Awwww poor Annie.
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Post by zingbat on Sept 21, 2009 18:01:49 GMT
Here's something that just occurred to me (unrelated to the Jack's-intentions discussion): I wonder if this page was constructed to be a parallel to the page in Ties where Hyland (Jack's ?dad?) says something nasty about Surma (Annie's mom).
In both scenes, Hyland/Jack says something apparently designed to play on the insecurities of Surma/Annie--in Surma's case, the fact that she has "freaky" abilities and was originally placed in Chester; in Annie's case, her difficulties making friends and interacting with others. And in both cases, Surma's/Annie's more-aggressive friend goes into attack mode. But then we get to see how Annie is different from her mom: while Surma didn't stop Jimmy from hitting Hyland (although I guess the punch kind of came out of nowhere, so it might have been difficult to prevent) and in fact seems to appreciate the violence, Annie stops Kat from attacking and tries to calm her down, eventually leading her away to avoid any dramatics.
I just thought it was a neat way to show how similar and yet how different the previous & current generations of Gunnerkrigians are.
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