[2865] "We call forth the keeper of this soul!"

[saardvark]

Nov 20, 2023 8:15:54 GMT arf said:

..but who do we know who deals in electrical appliances?

Fortunately, Kat knows the ropes

I certainly don't!

[saardvark]

Nov 20, 2023 9:29:58 GMT jda said:

First death for this type of creature?

Robot would beg to disagree.

So, my money is on Robot.


-------

It didn't really have a mind/consciousness though, so maybe it doesn't count for having a soul(?)

[Gemminie]

As usual, posting without reading the thread, which I'll read after posting.

The Interpreter, apparently without prompting from the Arbiter, says that this is the "first death for this type of creature." Assuming he means the New People, this confirms that Lana is in fact still alive. He also says that "psychopomps are eager to claim souls" and that there is often competition among them, one example of which we saw in chapter 16. He says that "it must really be seen by the appropriate person." Annie starts to ask who he means.

Then she seemingly has a stunned epiphany as she realizes who he must be talking about – not that she shares it with us. She only says that it can't be whoever she's thinking of. But without any further conversation, the Arbiter, translated by the Interpreter, calls for the "keeper of this soul."

And now, the 64-dollar question: who is the "keeper of this soul?" I mean, we'll probably see them on the next page, but I can always guess. I'm making the assumption that they wouldn't be calling upon a being who no longer exists, although I suppose there's nothing preventing them from summoning them, discovering that nothing happens, and saying, "Oh well, I guess they're dead, never mind." Still, you'd think that they'd have checked first.

Guesses for who has a claim on Sam's soul:

• My first choice has to be Diego. As the creator of all the original golems, who in turn created their successors, who built their own successors, and so on, it all goes back to him. The problem is that he's dead (which explains Annie's "It can't be" reaction) – or at least we think he is. He left a final record in the RotD, so a psychopomp took him there and presumably took him into the Ether after that. But what did his final record say? "She died and I did nothing." That sounds like something one of his creations would say. What if at the moment of his death Diego swapped his essence with that of one of his creations, S1 for example (whose hand is that?), and the psychopomp took that essence into the Ether? Or what if Diego pulled some kind of trick after leaving the final record that resulted in his essence (or even just part of it) was stored in S1 (or perhaps even spreading it among all his golems, explaining their "she died and we did nothing" thing) before the psychopomp took the rest of it into the Ether? Kat put Robot's chip into S1's body, transferring at least S1's knowledge of fencing, but what if Diego's essence also transferred to Robot? He wasn't proselytizing before this happened, and then suddenly he was. So perhaps Diego's spirit is going to show up, or Robot's going to show up and reveal that Diego's essence is inside him, or the like.
• The ancient robot/golem that started Sam's series, whichever type of robot Sam used to be. We know they still exist and are active, except for one.
• Kat. She created Sam's body and the means by which his essence was transferred into it. That could mean that she has some kind of claim on that soul, I suppose, but it doesn't look like it to me; Kat's contract would cover only their bodies. I don't think Kat has any more of a claim on Sam's soul than, say, Robot does, since he's seemingly been more hands-on with transferring most of their essences than Kat has.

Then of course there's my ongoing question of why psychopomps are so eager to claim souls and so possessive of them, linked to why they didn't consider themselves to owe Annie anything for resolving the Jeanne situation. Ongoing mysteries.

[Gemini Jim]

Annie seems to think she knows that it's Kat, so it's probably not Kat.


I will laugh so hard if it's BoxBot. Complete with haunting hellooooooooo


If it is Kat, there will be some snag, like:
- Kat is actually inside the walkie-talkie, and needs somebody to get her out.
- Kat is currently in some Distortion-caused disguise, and the person who does show up (Diego, Jones, Robot), won't be recognizable as Kat/ rejected as not Kat

EDIT: God-like Kat monster counts as a snag

EDIT: Or, Kat shows up, hears what the deal is, objects and refuses

[ravendance]

Based on what the Interpreter is saying in panel one, I think it's possible that the keeper of Sam's soul has been trying to get into the distortion, or would have been if they had known that one of the the NP had died. Are we about to see an official, proper psychopomp?
Also, in the last panel, the Interpreter is facing an area of fractured panel as they? he? it? call fourth the keeper. This might just be Saslamel, but I think the keeper is breaking through the distortion. It makes sense from a storytelling perspective for Saslamel to be calling Kat, so we can have our other main character here for this important moment in the legend of the NP, but she's already in the distortion.

[guntherkrieg]

Nov 20, 2023 11:32:19 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Nov 20, 2023 10:20:09 GMT guntherkrieg said:

Why? Thesis, please. 

Please see my previous posts here, here, and here.

Interesting. I'm not sure where you're getting idea that the NP "don't have enough mojo" to be ghosts.

When the reactivated Diego Golem was expounding on the nature of life, to him the difference between humans and robots was that, for them, motion was life and when they stop it is LIKE death, but is NOT death. There was also that detailed page/frame with the human brain/nervous system shutting down. A nervous system the NPs now have.

Furthermore! We've seen the NPs now have etheric presence.

We can see Saitama's ghost.

I argue, serrah, that the NPs now have enough of an etheric imprint to be a ghost and, therefore, need pomping. 

POMP IT REAL GOOD.

[imaginaryfriend]

Nov 20, 2023 16:49:49 GMT guntherkrieg said:

Nov 20, 2023 11:32:19 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Please see my previous posts here, here, and here.

Interesting. I'm not sure where you're getting idea that the NP "don't have enough mojo" to be ghosts.

When the reactivated Diego Golem was expounding on the nature of life, to him the difference between humans and robots was that, for them, motion was life and when they stop it is LIKE death, but is NOT death. There was also that detailed page/frame with the human brain/nervous system shutting down. A nervous system the NPs now have.

Furthermore! We've seen the NPs now have etheric presence.

We can see Saitama's ghost.

I argue, serrah, that the NPs now have enough of an etheric imprint to be a ghost and, therefore, need pomping. 

POMP IT REAL GOOD.

The fastest rebuttal I can give right now is to say that Coyote looked at Lana outside of the reality distortion and said "golem." From other things in the comic I've speculated that it isn't that inanimate things in the Gunnerverse have zero ether, they have less and it doesn't flow the same way. The Court robots were etheric tech, they had a cpu with a strange chip-thinger that had enough mojo (for lack of a better term) for them to work. They're mostly electrical appliances. However, in the distortion we're seeing places and scenarios driven by Antimony's memories and expectations... therefore ghost-Noob.

...but I think we agree on what's going to happen next, just not on why.

[shhwip]

I don't see it being anyone other than robot in his seraph form. It would be narratively unsatisfying if it was anyone else. He is going to ask them if it was worth it. Think about what it would mean if it was Diego, their cowardly father, who was the one who guided every robot to the ether. It could be Kat but that would require apotheosis imo and I don't think we are at that point in the story yet.

[martello]

I vote for Kat's computer, the one she improving all the time and uses to transfer the souls.

[pyradonis]

Kat is too obvious, so my vote goes to S13, who is possibly carrying a part of Diego's mind inside his own since having been inside the S1 body. By the way, I see an electric ground (GND) circuit symbol in the upper left of Saslamel's speech bubble, and somehow I think it is deliberate. Tom is well aware of this symbol.

[blahzor]

FROM THE TOP ROPE!

[blahzor]

Top 5 people it could be
number 5. That Huntsman guy
number 4. Gamma
number 3. Robot
number 2. Christmas
number 1. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kat

[drmemory]

I still think it's Kat, as I still think she owns the NP in some sense, thanks to her "new contract". That still leaves big questions though, like:

1. Is she also in trouble for arrow abuse or other contractual violations?
2. Does she officially need to become a psychopomp now?

As for S13, I think she is already there, in the form of that mysterious dark-haired NP that nobody recognizes. Yes, I said "she", both because of her relationship with Shadow 2 and because of the angelic form she took in the Ocean chapter. She has to be there to say "I told you so" at the appropriate moment.

[drmemory]

Other possibilities, which I consider much less likely, but they may show up for the show:

Diego, in some form, probably just a tagalong with S13 really - I don't think S13 = Diego but it seems likely he has some of Diego in him. Maybe just memories.

Omega. Chekov's Supercomputer. Seems like the right time for it to show up.

On a related note, it may be time for the public unveiling of Mecha-Kat! Kat-bura, Kat-bura, Kat-bura!

[blazingstar]

Nov 20, 2023 9:39:36 GMT jda said:

Nov 20, 2023 8:12:36 GMT bicarbonat said:

- Wrong Answers Only Edition™ –

Jones.

She would appear and--
"No. This boy has died prematurely and unjustly. You will bring him back to life".
Salami Mel, trembling: O-of course, Jones!
And blipo, Saitama is back.
Jones out.

If we're doing Wrong Answers Only, of course this would be my vote. (If my profile picture didn't make it obvious enough who my favorite character is.)

[blazingstar]

Nov 20, 2023 18:50:45 GMT pyradonis said:

Kat is too obvious, so my vote goes to S13, who is possibly carrying a part of Diego's mind inside his own since having been inside the S1 body. By the way, I see an electric ground (GND) circuit symbol in the upper left of Saslamel's speech bubble, and somehow I think it is deliberate. Tom is well aware of this symbol.

I have never seen a proper explanation for the symbol above the entrance to Jeanne's tomb on pg 638. Thank you for what could finally be a hint in the right direction.

[batsugars]

Psychopomps tend to be personifications/rulers of death (Muut, Ankou), messengers/guides (Hermes), or links between the earthly and the divine (Agni), but none of them have been creator gods in their cultures. Based on that, I think Diego is out. But it's fun to think who in the cast takes on a similar role. Kat was my first thought, but I really like the idea of Robot. We've seen him act as the robot's link between them and Kat (the divine), and as shhwip pointed out, Robot did guide the first ever robot burial. Omega is a cool idea too, though I think Annie is probably thinking of Kat (or Robot).

As an aside, I always thought Annie was recruited by the psychopomps because they foresaw that Kat's robots would need a psychopomp. But I guess not? What do they need her for, then?

[gpvos]

The gang decided teleporting people was unsafe because of the location distortion (see the disassembled walkie-talkie). I hope Saslamel has a more reliable summoning method at their disposal.

[gpvos]

Also, I am 100% on team Kat here.

[Gemini Jim]

So if it's Robot, that was definitely a fake Robot up at the bridge, right?


The Distortion has had Annie & Co. wandering around an RPG version of Annie's memories since the chapter started. But maybe it's also Annie's fantasies.
She got to act all heroic against the spiders, she got to punt Coyote (or a representative thereof), she got to witness her fiery self being all badass in the forest.
But then Robot and Jeanne glitched the program. Or not? Maybe Annie had bad memories about the bridge, and doubts about her ability to face Jeanne again.

So Sam Saitama dies, which is unexpected, but it all happens in a way that Annie would subconsciously expect - with an invisible (to the others) ghost, and the need for a RoboPomp.

Even Clippy and Salami Mel are acting in predictable ways which Annie might expect/ remember from the last time.

I'm 95 percent convinced that Mel is real, which is why the cracks are appearing (always around Mel, never anywhere else!). He's literally breaking into the Distortion; playtime is over.

But this could all be part of Annie's personal rabbit hole.

[Geekette]

The flaw I see with the logic of it beign Deigo because he was the first creator, is that Deigo made the golems for Jeanne. But the arbiter's laws of ownership, Jeanne owned their previous bodies, not Deigo. And Jeanne's already just killed Sam, so she can't be back to then escort him.

[Coyoty]

I wouldn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[philman]

Nov 21, 2023 7:32:03 GMT Coyoty said:

I wouldn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

The Spanish Inquisition... Paz?

[blahzor]

Nov 21, 2023 7:22:20 GMT Geekette said:

The flaw I see with the logic of it beign Deigo because he was the first creator, is that Deigo made the golems for Jeanne. But the arbiter's laws of ownership, Jeanne owned their previous bodies, not Deigo. And Jeanne's already just killed Sam, so she can't be back to then escort him.

but she never wanted them. and since they were objects owned by Diego that made more of themseleves they are all still owned by Diego and loaned out to the court.

[pyradonis]

Nov 20, 2023 20:27:14 GMT drmemory said:

As for S13, I think she is already there, in the form of that mysterious dark-haired NP that nobody recognizes. Yes, I said "she", both because of her relationship with Shadow 2 and because of the angelic form she took in the Ocean chapter. She has to be there to say "I told you so" at the appropriate moment.

Tom said S13 identifies as male, and I don't really see any indication that this has changed... The insufferable unctuous looking guidance angel form he took in VR looked more childlike-androgynous to me, but even if everyone else sees it as obviously female, he wouldn't be the first guy who uses a female avatar online.

[justcurious]

Since S13 has not yet chosen his final form, I don't think the black haired NP is him. I think she isn't Zimmy either. She doesn't talk like Zimmy. However, she could easily be Gamma.
The keeper if the NPs' souls is not their owner. The Arbiter has said that the NP can no longer be owned.
And if Kat turns up in her etheric form what will Renard's reaction be?

[gpvos]

One problem with Annie suddenly realizing/remembering things, as in panel 4, is that it might move the entire group to yet another area within the distortion, or summon others related to what her memory is about. I'm not sure Saslamel can stop that from happening.

[Gemminie]

Whoever the "keeper of this soul" is, they're someone astonishing enough to get Annie to say "No, it can't be." I'm still thinking it's Diego; I think part of him is still alive, either in Robot, spread out among all the robots, or maybe within one robot we didn't expect (like the one that became the black-haired NP). What if she's the Robot King, and he's been Diego all this time? We haven't seen the RK for quite a while. But I don't think so. I think Diego either put part of his essence into S1 or spread it out among all his golems before he died – or, of course, he put part of his essence into each one he made in order to give it life. Perhaps there wasn't much left to take in to the Ether by the time Diego died.

The rules seem to be that if someone dies, anything they own becomes owned by nobody unless they specifically leave it to someone in their last will and testament – even if that will isn't witnessed by anyone living, the Ether still seems to respect it. We don't know what Diego's last will said, but he seemed to want the golems and their descendants to be their own people, so it may be something to that effect. How evil was/is he? He might have set things up so as to return as their new ruler, in which case he plans to get rid of Kat and take her place. Or he might only be hanging on to make sure his plan comes to fruition and his "children" become fully real people at last, in which case he just needs to arrange for the Ether to accept that they're alive and can change it with their beliefs upon death (which may just require one of them to die and be taken into the Ether).

It's seemed to me for a while that there'd be some balance if the New People saw Kat as the one who brought them life and Annie as the one who brought them death. But I think in the end neither Kat nor Annie wants to become deified in those roles. But maybe the Ether will create its own versions of them to take on those aspects.

[drmemory]

You know, we have only the Interpreter's word for what Arbiter Saslamel is saying. I sometimes amuse myself by speculating that he's actually saying something like "Help me! This stupid ghost has been holding me captive for centuries! He drags me around with him and treats me like a puppet! HELP!!!".

[drmemory]

Nov 21, 2023 11:44:26 GMT pyradonis said:

Nov 20, 2023 20:27:14 GMT drmemory said:

As for S13, I think she is already there, in the form of that mysterious dark-haired NP that nobody recognizes. Yes, I said "she", both because of her relationship with Shadow 2 and because of the angelic form she took in the Ocean chapter. She has to be there to say "I told you so" at the appropriate moment.

Tom said S13 identifies as male, and I don't really see any indication that this has changed... The insufferable unctuous looking guidance angel form he took in VR looked more childlike-androgynous to me, but even if everyone else sees it as obviously female, he wouldn't be the first guy who uses a female avatar online.

Hmmm.  Ok.  That doesn't rule out his taking a female NP avatar either, of course.