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Post by Timberwere on Nov 9, 2022 8:11:41 GMT
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Post by philman on Nov 9, 2022 8:28:19 GMT
Hmm, Loup seems to be fascinated by Lana as a New Person, rather than her as an individual. Is this him falling in love with the idea of being loved/worshipped, rather than Lana as an individual? And would the love/worship of Lana, and potentially other New People, shape him as a god? It would certainly begin to fit in with coyote's themes that humanities thoughts and ideas is what shapes the ether and gods.
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Post by hnau on Nov 9, 2022 8:28:31 GMT
Is Loup going to convert to Kat-olicism, the robot cult?
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Post by arf on Nov 9, 2022 8:33:05 GMT
The hand of the Divine?
We-ell, Lana did spend quite a bit of time on body design...
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 9, 2022 8:43:11 GMT
I think part of what's going on is that Ysengrin was really lonely.
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Post by foresterr on Nov 9, 2022 9:36:04 GMT
eew, teenagers
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Post by basser on Nov 9, 2022 9:48:41 GMT
Presumably he's thinking about the time Coyote tried to make his own humans but wound up with a race of pancake cats.
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Post by mochakimono on Nov 9, 2022 11:44:42 GMT
Have the New People not been offered a supply of clothing beyond uniform tracksuits, or have they just been unmotivated to design wardrobes as they designed the bodies to wear them?
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Post by phyzome on Nov 9, 2022 11:50:40 GMT
...or he's actually in love with Kat. 👀
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Post by ohthatone on Nov 9, 2022 12:17:46 GMT
Presumably he's thinking about the time Coyote tried to make his own humans but wound up with a race of pancake cats. I...I don't know if this is accurate but it's the greatest take I have heard and I will accept no other. |
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Post by speedwell on Nov 9, 2022 14:24:26 GMT
Interestingly, I think we're seeing a contrast here between duality of body and self-identity ("soul", "mind", "spirit") in natural individuals, and unity of body and self-identity in technological individuals. Loup is perhaps unable to see Lana's "soul" because in robots and New People, the self arises directly from the body configuration as a functionality or attribute.
Indeed I wonder whether each individual's New appearance was directed as if subconsciously by the original robot's developed sense of self, rather than a random dice-roll within vague parameters. Robot the subtle, to whom the deep relation between form and function is important and who meticulously designed his own angelic form, would hardly have overlooked the artistic opportunity to choose an especially apropos body for each New Person in his care.
As for whether Loup really loves Lana, I put it to you that while infatuation and fascinated acquisitiveness are not the purest and most abiding forms of love, they are indeed love of a sort. We'll have it confirmed when/if Loup does something selfless for her. (I certainly agree with Rimwolf's identification of Loup as narcissistic.)
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Post by ctso74 on Nov 9, 2022 14:41:29 GMT
As for whether Loup really loves Lana, I put it to you that while infatuation and fascinated acquisitiveness are not the purest and most abiding forms of love, they are indeed love of a sort. We'll have it confirmed when/if Loup does something selfless for her. I've always considered "love" as a two-way street, while "infatuation" was one-way. That doesn't take away from your point, though. Two one-ways can effectively act as a two-way. What is the difference between mutual infatuation and love? What is the median strip/central reservation of affection, and how big does it have to be before breaking "love"? Interesting questions, that I imagine are rather subjective. |
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Post by speedwell on Nov 9, 2022 14:47:42 GMT
Have the New People not been offered a supply of clothing beyond uniform tracksuits, or have they just been unmotivated to design wardrobes as they designed the bodies to wear them? Cool question. I think I've been assuming that they've all been so overwhelmed with their new bodies for the moment that the question of fashion in clothing is gilding the lily, so to speak. |
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Post by speedwell on Nov 9, 2022 14:53:08 GMT
As for whether Loup really loves Lana, I put it to you that while infatuation and fascinated acquisitiveness are not the purest and most abiding forms of love, they are indeed love of a sort. We'll have it confirmed when/if Loup does something selfless for her. I've always considered "love" as a two-way street, while "infatuation" was one-way. That doesn't take away from your point, though. Two one-ways can effectively act as a two-way. What is the difference between mutual infatuation and love? What is the median strip/central reservation of affection, and how big does it have to be before breaking "love"? Interesting questions, that I imagine are rather subjective. Oh, for sure. The body is a plaything of the mind, eh? 😉 Note that while we've all been gagging theatrically like an eleven-year-old boy forced to watch two TV stars kissing, there has nevertheless been a serious undercurrent of discussion about what love is and can be, and about the individual and the couple in the context of a relationship, of the wider society, and even of philosophy and mysticism. It strikes me that in most other forums, they'd barely get past the "I ship this" stage, heh. Well done, everyone. |
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Post by rafk on Nov 9, 2022 15:27:45 GMT
Please let this not be a setup for a Gainax Ending.
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Post by unbalanced on Nov 9, 2022 15:32:17 GMT
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Post by Gemminie on Nov 9, 2022 15:41:09 GMT
I'm not sure how diegetic the previous page was, but here we see Jerrek spending time with Lana. They're in tank tops from the waist up (standard New People issue, I suppose) but still have their track suit pants.
Jerrek is wondering how, with Loup's abilities, he can see every subatomic particle in Lana's eyes, and beyond that even, but he can't make out what makes them beautiful or how her soul resides in her. (Loup did previously consider the New People soulless, so it appears that he's changed his mind about that.) He wonders whether it's the hand of the Divine – I mean, he's a god, and Coyote was a god, so wouldn't he know? Has he ever wondered where the soul resides in anything else before?
Is it the hand of the Divine? I mean, Kat designed and made the New People's bodies, but she didn't make their souls (or at least, not as far as I can tell); their identities and consciousnesses came from their CPU chips, which were made by other robots and shaped by their experiences. And ultimately the first mechanical robots were built by the ancient robots/golems, which were built by Diego, but again, their identities seem to have been shaped by their experiences. The metaphysical circumstances that allow this process to happen may be considered the hand of the Divine, I suppose, if you want to go that way with it.
Lana, of course, just thinks he's saying profound things about how beautiful she is, so she's all for that.
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Post by drmemory on Nov 9, 2022 15:47:53 GMT
Can't we just be happy for them?  Ok, nobody will buy that from me I'm sure. Still, this is pretty interesting and is growing on me. Consider this: Loup hasn't harmed any of Robot's people. So no reason for conflict there really, unless Kat intercedes. Coyote knew everything (that he wanted to know) and specifically, time was his bitch. He's obviously been working on very long-term plans here, and possibly iterating until he got the outcomes he wanted. There are some odd things about Robot as well - is Diego in there? Did he start out knowing the future? He started making claims about the Angel and the evolution of the robots long before any evidence appeared. I'm not sure we fully understand how he feels about Annie either - Kat is clearly more important to his people and their evolution, but she is the one that first gave him a choice, which seems to be what kicked off the rest.
Did robot know what would happen with Loup and Lana? I'm suggesting pre-knowledge of the future, not that he's just that smart.
Don't be too quick to rule out Coyote's influence over current events. I think we are finally seeing what Coyote wanted Loup to learn in the court. But. Loup still doesn't know Coyote's plan, nor agree with it, nor agree that he should die. So that plan is still live - not yet complete.
Finaly, awww. How romantic! Is this really any worse than, say, Sheldon and Amy?
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Post by speedwell on Nov 9, 2022 16:14:31 GMT
Finaly, awww. How romantic! Is this really any worse than, say, Sheldon and Amy?
Well, at least no worse than Heathcliff and Cathy. (Yeah. I'm going on about that again 😂) |
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Post by ohthatone on Nov 9, 2022 16:15:43 GMT
Can't we just be happy for them? Ok, nobody will buy that from me I'm sure. Still, this is pretty interesting and is growing on me. Consider this: Loup hasn't harmed any of Robot's people. So no reason for conflict there really, unless Kat intercedes. Coyote knew everything (that he wanted to know) and specifically, time was his bitch. He's obviously been working on very long-term plans here, and possibly iterating until he got the outcomes he wanted. There are some odd things about Robot as well - is Diego in there? Did he start out knowing the future? He started making claims about the Angel and the evolution of the robots long before any evidence appeared. I'm not sure we fully understand how he feels about Annie either - Kat is clearly more important to his people and their evolution, but she is the one that first gave him a choice, which seems to be what kicked off the rest.
Did robot know what would happen with Loup and Lana? I'm suggesting pre-knowledge...
Robot is wired into the omega device? Robot IS the omega device? |
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Post by Gemminie on Nov 9, 2022 16:49:36 GMT
There are some odd things about Robot as well - is Diego in there? I've been speculating that Diego, or a program created by Diego, has been in Robot ever since this moment. He picked up fencing skills from it; what else may he have picked up? Any S model robot would have served as a potential host for this program; it just turned out that it was S13 who came in contact with it. I don't think he has ever known the future; I think the program directs him to bring the "prophecy" about – to find someone talented to latch onto and mold into the Angel, who thanks to the Ether will then cause ripple effects both forward and backward in time, including to Robot himself before he ever had the program installed. (And perhaps even far enough back to inspire Diego to create the program.) He told Loup that he didn't care what happened to anyone else. I mean, what's Annie done for him lately? Yep. The fact that Loup didn't see being killed by Annie with the tooth/dagger as an excellent plan means that he'll have to undergo some changes and have some unexpected revelations before he comes around to that, and this is definitely a change. |
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 9, 2022 17:08:34 GMT
I mean, he's a god, and Coyote was a god, so wouldn't he know? Has he ever wondered where the soul resides in anything else before? "Even I, as wonderful as I am, cannot create this from nothing." Granted, Coyote was speaking about "Life" here, not about "Souls", but I guess it's close enough. Even the theoretically omnipotent and omniscient Coyote seemed to have his limits (whether deliberately chosen or not we do not know) when it came to the question what makes a being alive...
Finaly, awww. How romantic! Is this really any worse than, say, Sheldon and Amy? Or worse than Zimmy and Gamma, or worse than early Parley and Smitty? |
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 9, 2022 17:08:51 GMT
So, I just want to check if I need to get my mind out of the gutter:
Am I alone in interpreting this as them having made love recently?
I probably am jumping to conclusions but that's where my mind went.
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Post by speedwell on Nov 9, 2022 17:14:03 GMT
So, I just want to check if I need to get my mind out of the gutter: Am I alone in interpreting this as them having made love recently? I probably am jumping to conclusions but that's where my mind went. Not just you. They might as well be sharing a cigarette, old-Hollywood style. I don't say this in any disapproving way, mind you; I'm not the finger-wagging type as regards the bodily autonomy of young people (which from my perspective is 16 to 30, heh). And I'm sure Lana is far from the first NP to discover the practical applications of hormones like serotonin and oxytocin. NPs may well have more conscious control over their hormonal states, by virtue of their technological design. Loup, however, I read as following the post-coital script in which a young man unguardedly mutters "I love you" in the dark, only to wake up in a cold sweat the next morning hoping she didn't hear him, except she so did 🙀 Good call on early Parley and Smitty. She was pretty cringeworthy, wasn't she. Only Smitty's absolute lack of negative feedback and our conviction he was a diamond geezer saved us from all going off like rockets about it. I think. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 9, 2022 19:01:56 GMT
So, I just want to check if I need to get my mind out of the gutter: Am I alone in interpreting this as them having made love recently? I probably am jumping to conclusions but that's where my mind went. In my mind it's barely more probable that they didn't have sex then they did because these characters don't come pre-loaded with all of the experiences and expectations that should make it a certainty for human teens in the same situation (though they do have some of those). Still pretty much a coin flip and I wouldn't be surprised if they did but at the moment I'm thinking the night passed in true YA romance fashion with much gazing into each others' eyes, cuddles, long and meaningful pauses, and maybe some breathy kissing. If they did have sex we may see some symbolism in the next comic or two such as busted roman blinds, mattress with no bedding in one corner of the room, or the ham-handed blossom-dropped-from-the-flower. |
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Post by maxptc on Nov 9, 2022 20:02:48 GMT
Yeah, pretty sure Loup is truly in love with Lana, just a question of what kind of love. Exposing yourself and expecting to be hated and instead being accepted makes sense as being a big deal to Loup, whose been hated for existing. Easy to see that as Jerrek he found Lana attractive before this. If Coyete and Ys were capable of love, I fail to see why Loup would be loveless. Is this one of those "only certain types of people can truly love" things? Cause I don't agree with that, but love has very specific definitions to some people. Hasn't everyone been talking about becoming the mask we wear as a theme of this comic? Maybe the people hoping Loup becomes Jerrek were thinking a bit literally, maybe gaining some humanity from experiencing a "normal" life is enough. We don't know how different Loup being chill is from Jerrek, he involved in chaos whenever we see him as Loup. Dunno, this paired with him asking Annie what she would do if Loup tried to be cool, seems like its a redemption story to me.
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Post by shadow3 on Nov 9, 2022 20:15:53 GMT
Renard fell in love with Surma, and changed from his original perspective of mortals.
Loup's character development might mirror that, and he might actually join Team Annie in the final conflict of the series.
A possible twist would be that Court villains might use some kind of contingent safeguard to use Lana against Loup, which would be tragic.
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Post by drmemory on Nov 9, 2022 22:50:50 GMT
You know, if it weren't for this, I'd be assuming something like SCSI interconnections at this point. But maybe not? It appears Kat went for something a lot more human and physical for Arthur and I see no reason she'd give less to the rest.
Which opens up all kinds of questions for the future! Which I will resist (for now).
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Post by warrl on Nov 10, 2022 1:19:37 GMT
in robots and New People, the self arises directly from the body configuration as a functionality or attribute. I doubt this because of Robot. You know, the seraph-bot/immobile thing/windup mouse-bot/humaniform-bot/flesh-golem. Who appeared to maintain a consistent self-identity across all those different (some radically different) body configurations. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Nov 10, 2022 2:51:38 GMT
So, I just want to check if I need to get my mind out of the gutter: Am I alone in interpreting this as them having made love recently? I probably am jumping to conclusions but that's where my mind went. It could be that they simply made out, but they're alone in a train station, into each other, and have a bad case of Teenbrain, so something happened. The real story here, though, is Loup - a god - outright having a crisis of faith. In a world where deities walk around personified, is it possible for divinity itself to be a power above them rather than a power equal to them? There were always things Coyote chose not to see or control, but were there things Coyote couldn't see or control even if he wanted to? It reminds me very vaguely of the push-and-pull between AI progress and comprehensibility. The idealized human-level Artificial Intelligence is a well ordered, well documented program where every piece of it is understood. That's after all where the premise of runaway self-improvement comes from, that if it can be understood by humans, then a human-level AI would be able to understand its own mind and make it better, at which point it's now better at making itself better, etc. However in practice, every advance in neural networks has introduced more black boxes we don't understand. The way these things get really good at a task is to take the inputs we define, convolute them in multiple steps - each one less comprehensible than the last - and somehow decide on a proper solution at the end. With each additional improvement and step towards generalization, we've only managed to make this process more complicated and more incomprehensible. Such that if we ever used this method to create what appears to be a human-level AI, it might be that we (and the AI by extension) would have as little understanding of its coded mind as we have of the human brain. And if so, well...what might be hiding in that code? Nothing? A soul? The hand of the divine perhaps? |
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