[2507] In my failure, I prove myself correct

[bedinsis]

I hope we'll find out soon what Aata and Shell are talking about.

[glyphomatrix]

Hm, wonder what this is about....are Court higher-ups not supposed to use magic in any way?
Or is this a specific sort of magic that only god-like entities can use? Therefore Aata is basically cementing himself closer to the fabric of the Ether, which is an ideological no-no?

[bedinsis]

Looking back over the last few pages(which I have not done much of before since they're action pages and those tend to only make sense when read in sequence):

After Loup attacked Shell, Aata responded by making Shell bloom. I assume this stopped Shell from dying.

Judging by this page, this was an action that will kick him out of the Shadow Men or out of Gunnerkrigg Court.

Still puzzled by the line that became this thread's headline.

[Sky Schemer]

[mzpx]

Oh wow, would you look at that, Aata acting selflessly at [some unspecified but implied to be considerable] cost to him. Perhaps he's not the irredeemable evil mastermind behind everything as those don't really seem to exist in the Gunnerkrigg universe? (Sorry, sorry.)

[Edit]: speculation on the 'In my failure, I prove myself correct' - 'Coyote/Loup has so much power that he could foil my plans, thereby proving he does indeed have too much power and we need to stop him'.

[theonethatgotaway]

Aug 16, 2021 7:10:37 GMT bedinsis said:

Looking back over the last few pages(which I have not done much of before since they're action pages and those tend to only make sense when read in sequence):

After Loup attacked Shell, Aata responded by making Shell bloom. I assume this stopped Aata from dying.

Judging by this page, this was an action that will kick him out of the Shadow Men or out of Gunnerkrigg Court.

Still puzzled by the line that became this thread's headline.

You mean it stopped Shell from dying, I suppose?

I think it means that magic can stop the natural order of things, which is what the Court doesn't like.

[shinkaii]

Aug 16, 2021 7:06:02 GMT glyphomatrix said:

Hm, wonder what this is about....are Court higher-ups not supposed to use magic in any way?
Or is this a specific sort of magic that only god-like entities can use? Therefore Aata is basically cementing himself closer to the fabric of the Ether, which is an ideological no-no?

Well, Anja and Donald kinda use "magic" without fear of concequences by the court.
I wonder about "getting kicked out of the program". The last time I recall "the program" being mentioned is on this page when court blackmailed Tony back. So what's the program? Surely it's not just SCHOOL program, right?

[Tenjen]

Aata is making some very emotionally intimate physical gestures with shell here and saving their life at cost to his social standing. He's not coal-hearted as some may have thought from previous encounters.

[jda]

Aug 16, 2021 7:16:00 GMT shinkaii said:

Aug 16, 2021 7:06:02 GMT glyphomatrix said:

Hm, wonder what this is about....are Court higher-ups not supposed to use magic in any way?
Or is this a specific sort of magic that only god-like entities can use? Therefore Aata is basically cementing himself closer to the fabric of the Ether, which is an ideological no-no?

 The last time I recall "the program" being mentioned is on this page when court blackmailed Tony back. So what's the program? Surely it's not just SCHOOL program, right?

WEEEIIRDD, weird , wild theory: the "Program" is THEIR  REALITY, a la Matrix style.
So, basically all they are part of a colective simulated world, and being kicked out of the Program must be equivalent to dying or ceasing to exist/being deleted.
Tha is why Tony in page 1558 mentions "[they were going to] banish her from the Court and the Program entirely".

That would mean the Psychopoms would be... the Garbage Collectors rotine?

[bicarbonat]

We know there are "regular" people with etheric abilities, with slightly higher-ranking versions (Brinnie) who use their powers at GC. We also know there are *shrug* individuals like a flipping Minotaur, the RotD, and again, higher-ranking anomalies (honestly, I'm just talking about Jones) – and they also do their thing.

But are there out-and-out gods afoot in the Court? How would that look? You'd need either gods with an Achilles' heel or gods who are looking to divest with their power; anything else would be foolhardy from the Court's perspective. Aata seems to regard etheric manipulation & the etheric spin (of Moddey Dhoo fame) as distasteful corruption. He's been drawn into partaking of it once more by the danger that an etheric creature posed (although, it's more specifically because he feels a duty of care).

I wonder if "the program" was similar to the Forest creature assimilation procedure - wherein godlike beings are expected to stay "above-board" and not use their powers. His falling off the wagon might prove that the ether is indeed a chaotic form of nigh-irresistible escalation - it pulls you in or runs you over. If that's his stance, the program's might argue that the ether can be doled out and used judiciously - that it's only as chaotic as its user, and that would justify removing it from "ill-suited" holders like Zimmy and Loup and placing it in the tender loving care of calmer heads at the Court.

[madjack]

Aug 16, 2021 7:27:14 GMT jda said:

Aug 16, 2021 7:16:00 GMT shinkaii said:

 The last time I recall "the program" being mentioned is on this page when court blackmailed Tony back. So what's the program? Surely it's not just SCHOOL program, right?

WEEEIIRDD, weird , wild theory: the "Program" is THEIR  REALITY, a la Matrix style.
So, basically all they are part of a colective simulated world, and being kicked out of the Program must be equivalent to dying or ceasing to exist/being deleted.
Tha is why Tony in page 1558 mentions "[they were going to] banish her from the Court and the Program entirely".

That would mean the Psychopoms would be... the Garbage Collectors rotine?

There's enough coding and computing references in the comic that this isn't an idea to reject out of hand.

[blahzor]

Shell seems to know Aata is gonna save her and in turn reveal the secret of not using science only for the secret squad

[jda]

In Shell's depiction, I sense a drawing art change. Upgrading?

[sebastian]

Aug 16, 2021 7:15:10 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

Aug 16, 2021 7:10:37 GMT bedinsis said:

Looking back over the last few pages(which I have not done much of before since they're action pages and those tend to only make sense when read in sequence):

After Loup attacked Shell, Aata responded by making Shell bloom. I assume this stopped Aata from dying.

Judging by this page, this was an action that will kick him out of the Shadow Men or out of Gunnerkrigg Court.

Still puzzled by the line that became this thread's headline.

You mean it stopped Shell from dying, I suppose?

I think it means that magic can stop the natural order of things, which is what the Court doesn't like.

The Court doesn't like what it can't understand. That is the problem with Anja's magic computer. Yes, it does works, but she can't explain why it does, and that make it ... well, not useless, because they used it but, let's say, distasteful. You can tie the natural order into pretty bows if you want, but you must be able to explain how you do it if you want th Court to accept it.

[glyphomatrix]

Aug 16, 2021 7:16:00 GMT shinkaii said:

Aug 16, 2021 7:06:02 GMT glyphomatrix said:

Hm, wonder what this is about....are Court higher-ups not supposed to use magic in any way?
Or is this a specific sort of magic that only god-like entities can use? Therefore Aata is basically cementing himself closer to the fabric of the Ether, which is an ideological no-no?

Well, Anja and Donald kinda use "magic" without fear of concequences by the court.
I wonder about "getting kicked out of the program". The last time I recall "the program" being mentioned is on this page when court blackmailed Tony back. So what's the program? Surely it's not just SCHOOL program, right?

Ah yes, I meant that the 'higher-ups' are people like the Shadow Men and probably the headmaster. I was under the impression that magic is permissible if it's being done by people who are not very privy to the workings of the Court, e.g. Eggers and (maybe) Anja.

You're right though, Donald breaks this theory because he seems to be involved in the Program. I'm just keen to see where this is heading, if Aata's use of healing magic is a taboo only ideologically, or if it materially interferes with whatever the 'program' is doing.

[rylfrazier]

Really interesting moment, seems like a big revelation may be right around the corner.

Wondering if we will see another, more dangerous faction of The Court take the stage after what appears to be a "failure" of the plans of the Shadow Men. Not much mention of the court's big plan or the omega device - I think we assumed that Aata might be using it but I would say at this point I'm guessing that wasn't it and it's still coming.

[pyradonis]

That ominous "program" again! What could be so important that Shell would rather die than have Aata be kicked out?

[ohthatone]

I apologize if this was already brought up but it just hit me that when coyote called aata a failed cousin, maybe he was just simply referring to the fact aata had failed to get coyotes power again (as opposed to some experiment of coyotes gone wrong or failure of aata to exist as a being different from what he is).

[Per]

Aug 16, 2021 7:14:15 GMT mzpx said:

[Edit]: speculation on the 'In my failure, I prove myself correct' - 'Coyote/Loup has so much power that he could foil my plans, thereby proving he does indeed have too much power and we need to stop him'.

Or it might be that "failure" refers to what Shell just said and he's responding with "if this is wrong then I don't care to be right".

Edit: I can also buy philman's interpretation below.

[ohthatone]

Aug 16, 2021 9:29:41 GMT pyradonis said:

That ominous "program" again! What could be so important that Shell would rather die than have Aata be kicked out?

Just because it's Tom and I feel like I have to, this whole "oh look, he does have a heart" could be a big misdirection. Perhaps Shell is not saying she would rather be sacrificed than let aata get kicked out of the program, but pleading with aata not to suspend her in flower sleep (a la reys body). Not knowing anything about Shell, she could be the kind of person who would rather die than have anything to do with forest magic.

[Druplesnubb]

I ncase you've forgotten, this isn't the first time "the program" has been mentioned.

[philman]

"In my failure I prove myself correct"

For some reason, my mind went straight to the themes of the X-men, of mutants needing to be controlled because their existence is dangerous, and the battle between those who seek to allow mutants to control themselves (Xavier and the X-men, certain factions within the court), and those who want to impose control upon them (The various anti-mutant agencies that are often the baddies, the Shadow Men and the Omega project).

I interpreted Aata's comment to mean that in saving Shell, he failed in his promise to stop using his abilities, thus proving that individuals with these abilities will never be able to stop themselves from using them, even one so devoted to the cause as Aata. The Program is therefore the Court's scheme to end the existence of the ether and etheric abilities for good, so that no-one can be tempted to use them again, either for good or for ill. Aata's comment proves to himself that the end of the ether is therefore the only way to go forward, as even he, one so committed to the cause, cannot prevent himself using his abilities in emotional circumstances.

This also explains why Anthony is so committed to keeping Annie in the school and in The Program, he sees the removal of her etheric abilities via "The Program" as the only way to prevent his daughter from suffering the same fate as her mother.

[King Mir]

Aug 16, 2021 9:29:41 GMT pyradonis said:

That ominous "program" again! What could be so important that Shell would rather die than have Aata be kicked out?

Shell probably hasn't registered that he was in mortal danger yet. As for the program, it's probably the Shadow men or some branch of it that's in charge of getting power from the eather.

[Gemminie]

Annie has just waded into the battle, guns (and everything else) blazing, but meanwhile, as Loup's roots writhe in the foreground (retreating or severed, we can't tell), Aata is kneeling down. We only see this from the back at first, but then we see that he's kneeling over Shell, supporting her head (isn't this the opposite of what you do to prevent shock?). Shell's midriff is wreathed with flowers, the same ones we saw Aata generating there, presumably healing her wounds. Aata's face and forehead markings/emanations are still visible. Shell appears unconscious at first, but then comes to. But the first thing she does is look at her wounds and see ... what? We still don't really know whether she can see the flowers or whether they're only visible in the Ether; Shell might just be seeing her wounds closing at an abnormally rapid rate. Or she might see the flowers; I don't know. Or both – maybe the flowers are visible only in the Ether and Shell can see into the Ether. There's so much we don't know here.

At any rate, Shell realizes what's happening, although we're not entirely clear as readers. Aata holds her tenderly, though it's hard to say whether it's as a healer or as a friend or even lover. Shell is upset by what Aata's done, saying he'll be "kicked out of the program." Given that "the program" has been mentioned before as something you can be kicked out of, but only once, the meaning of this isn't clear. Aata's response is the title of this thread, "In my failure, I prove myself correct ..." He seems to be brushing an errant leaf or flower petal from his suit as he says this.

This page invokes the extremely familiar Gunnerkrigg Court feeling of "I'm seeing this, but I don't know what I'm seeing." Evidently what Aata has done is something he isn't supposed to do. It's a "failure" on his part. That is, unless his "failure" is something different (such as the failure of his plan to steal Coyote's power), but I don't think so, because that wouldn't follow the flow of the conversation. What he's done (which appears to be healing Shell, but maybe not) can get him kicked out of "the program," which may or may not be the same "program" that the Court threatened to expel Annie from if Tony didn't come back to the Court. What's the Program? Why can Aata use his ability to heal only at risk of explusion from it?

First of all, let's assume the Program is the same one that the Court threatened to expel Annie from. Clearly it's something that Tony saw her continuation in to be beneficial, either for her or for him. I suspect he thinks it's something that can save her life – and considering that he knows that she's likely to eventually grow up and have a child, he may think that the Program could lead to a way for that to happen without causing her early death. Also, let's assume that the Program is something the Court is doing; it seems unlikely at this point that it's unrelated. But other than the Court being involved in both, is this Program related to the Omega Device, or are they separate things?

I suspect, but cannot really prove, that the Program is simply the Court's plan for the life trajectory of the people it brings in and educates, people with etheric talents. It finds a way to use their talents, to make them part of itself. Note the fact that Brinnie attended school at the Court, and now James is able to teleport as she can in response to a beacon. But Brinnie can apparently still do it; she hasn't lost the ability, and nobody said that she could be expelled from the Program – though I suspect that's because she's some sort of legendary ethereal being, first of all, but she's also no longer affiliated with the Court. She's left the Program. So it may be that Tony's plan for Annie is for the Court to fully study her abilities and perhaps learn how to separate them from Annie, allowing her to live a full lifespan.

(This is getting long. Sorry.) What does this mean about Aata? In what way did he just fail, and why would this get him kicked out of the Program? Is it that he's meant to set some kind of example as a highly-placed Court official? Had he sworn some sort of oath not to use his healing ability? And in what way does this failure prove him correct (and about what)? The fact that he trails off with ellipsis suggests he'll continue on the next page, but it's not definite. I guess I'll see what others think now.

[ctso74]

I'm assuming "The Program" is alchemical in nature, for obvious reasons. Perhaps Aata's faux pas is making something from nothing. They resurrect Forest creatures on the regular, but they have to "die" first. Anja's computer requires resources and setup. Even Rey's body-swap ability comes with a cost. Perhaps, the Court chooses to live by Fullmetal Alchemist rules, despite their Coyote neighbor(or due to him), and Aata just broke the Law of Equivalent Exchange.

Though the philman idea above sounds real good.

[pyradonis]

Aug 16, 2021 14:12:52 GMT Gemminie said:

[...] He seems to be brushing an errant leaf or flower petal from his suit as he says this. [...]

Interesting. I assumed he had deliberately picked one of the two leaves that seem to be hovering over his shoulders in panel 2 (which, by the way, reminded me a lot of the hovering epaulets from Schlock Mercenary).

[jda]

Aug 16, 2021 13:08:30 GMT philman said:

"In my failure I prove myself correct"

For some reason, my mind went straight to the themes of the X-men, of mutants needing to be controlled because their existence is dangerous, and the battle between those who seek to allow mutants to control themselves (Xavier and the X-men, certain factions within the court), and those who want to impose control upon them (The various anti-mutant agencies that are often the baddies, the Shadow Men and the Omega project).

I see another 2 possible interpretations:
1.The Program vows as a Rule 1. "not do ehereal things" because that is not the "human way". But also, the Rule 0, that Aata advocates is, that the "human way" matters because the most important thing is "human life".
So, he is now violating the Rule 1 and kicking himself out of the Program only to preserve a "human life", rule he claims is in a higher tier.

2.- Also, speculating, maybe we/I have misinterpreted the page. Shell wakes up and relizes he is about to die, and suddenly finds themself afraid, because Aata's power can not heal BUT ABSORB.
So, Shell knows 's goiong to die, but does not wanna GET CANNIBALIZED.

[davidm]

"mutants needing to be controlled because their existence is dangerous" Court already makes use of all sorts of tools that could be dangerous, including Annie and computers that do magic.

It could be that the shadow men themselves knowing that their "omega device" may grant powers comparable to Coyote, made a rule about them not wielding godlike powers to stop one of them becoming a despot, they despise "despot" forest gods, and using powers like them makes them feel like they are being corrupted to become similar.

des·pot noun a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.

[Polyhymnia]

Aug 16, 2021 13:08:30 GMT philman said:

"In my failure I prove myself correct"

For some reason, my mind went straight to the themes of the X-men, of mutants needing to be controlled because their existence is dangerous, and the battle between those who seek to allow mutants to control themselves (Xavier and the X-men, certain factions within the court), and those who want to impose control upon them (The various anti-mutant agencies that are often the baddies, the Shadow Men and the Omega project).

I interpreted Aata's comment to mean that in saving Shell, he failed in his promise to stop using his abilities, thus proving that individuals with these abilities will never be able to stop themselves from using them, even one so devoted to the cause as Aata. The Program is therefore the Court's scheme to end the existence of the ether and etheric abilities for good, so that no-one can be tempted to use them again, either for good or for ill. Aata's comment proves to himself that the end of the ether is therefore the only way to go forward, as even he, one so committed to the cause, cannot prevent himself using his abilities in emotional circumstances.

This also explains why Anthony is so committed to keeping Annie in the school and in The Program, he sees the removal of her etheric abilities via "The Program" as the only way to prevent his daughter from suffering the same fate as her mother.

I agree with your analysis and see the speculation as plausible and consistent with what we’ve seen from both the characters and the court. The way Aata seems to be looking down in distaste/disgust as he brushes the leaves off of him seem to say “what I’m doing is distasteful on principle, even though I have no regrets about doing it.”

If Aata is breaking an etheric rule/principle of the court, and he is in the past a firm believer in the principle who is now acting in contrary to the rule, it suggests two options: either, the rule is bad/imperfect/has exceptions because Aata’s transgressive but justifiable breech of etheric rule means that their rules don’t account for such situations, or, despite Aata’s benevolent intentions here, the act of rule-breaking by a firm devotee shows that etheric users inevitably break the rules and justify it and therefore need something to stop them from doing so. I think he’s trying to convey the latter.

Aata seems to view use of etheric manifestations negatively, and found his use of the ether in the Coyote discussion “distasteful,” something he seems to still feel about his own etheric actions on principle (see:the way he brushes the leaves off of himself). This doesn’t mean he regrets saving Shell via magic, but believes in the rules so much that he won’t make himself an exception to them (i.e. a true believer or fanatic).

If the belief is “ether users will not/cannot, solely of their own free will, refrain from using their talents (and therefore need to be controlled/restrained/denied positions of authority etc),” he doesn’t see himself as an exception. Even he, an incredibly devoted member of the cause, as an ether user broke his rules as soon as it was convenient for him (though due to his own self-control, it took a far more extreme situation to trigger such a lapse than a less-devoted etheric being might face).

So I don’t think he’s saying “hang the rules, I care about you,” but “see, the fact that my care for you led me to break a rule shows that an “honor system” won’t work. I’m willing to suffer the consequences for breaking them even if this act seems justifiable to me because the law is higher than my own principles.”

Kinda reminds me of Kant on the categorical imperative.

[csj]

shell is only allowed fem-presenting eyelashes when death rears its ugly head