[2498] Alas, I cannot!

[madjack]

That makes it okay.

[stclair]

In which Coyote reveals his only flaw: he cares too much.

... yeah no, that's bullshit.

"You're right, I can't ask you to do this... so I'll force you to. Oh wait, even better plan - I'll make someone else do it, leaving me entirely blameless!" ^________^

[aline]

Well. I didn't really expect Coyote's plan to leave much room for Annie to ruin it by saying no. He does know she's not a killer.

I suppose Loup, who was already quite homicidal last time we saw him, is going to be in the mood to level the Court when time starts again. Annie will have to kill him or watch her home destroyed and her friends killed, and she won't have a choice.

[rylfrazier]

Well we always knew Coyote was bad and dangerous but I suppose we will see more of the extent of that in this story. Obviously if we thought that his behavior toward Annie included or reflected that his personality contained anything akin to the human version of kindness or affection toward Annie that was an illusion or a trick.

Personally I'm hoping for a narrative that gives Annie some agency in how she reacts to the situation but I guess we'll have to see how it goes. Coyote is a god after all and Annie does seem to have sort of a general sense that she can't stand up to him directly, but she's been presented as quite clever in the past so perhaps she'll come up with something.

[speedwell]

Coyote isn't acting any differently from any other "world god", folks, let alone any other trickster god. "I love you and this is gonna hurt" is typical of gods in general.

That said, Coyote is a personified force of nature, and what he's saying is going to happen is really not much more than "I'm going to let things take their course".

****

Say, why can something that was born because people believed in it die even though people still believe in him? Is that what flavours the experience for Coyote, the idea that he can die, which proves that he actually does exist? (or did, whatever heh)

[mochakimono]

The vision of Annie at three different ages gives me Norn vibes, but I have no idea what that would actually mean in this context, so I'm chalking that up to coincidence, haha.

Perhaps it's simply a nod to how, in many ways, there are recurring themes of multiplicity and unity. How many characters now have had multiple souls, bodies, forms, etc.?

Which then makes me worried if Coyote means "tear at your soul" more literally than to imply the trauma of killing another. Perhaps there are more dire consequences involved when one kills a god. Dangerous backlash incoming?

[pylgrimm]

GodDammit Coyote.

That said, he's such a really well-written trickster! I actually couldn't help to chuckle at his nakedly bad attempts at appearing contrite. I think that he honestly cares for Annie but he a) cannot change his trickster nature, b) he's an ancient demigod that cannot put himself in the shoes of a human being, and c) is not willing to change this little masterplan of his, decades in the making. For a being like that, using someone is not mutually exclusive with loving them and his being absolutely candid about it all is the way to show it.

[hp]

Jul 26, 2021 8:42:01 GMT speedwell said:

Say, why can something that was born because people believed in it die even though people still believe in him? Is that what flavours the experience for Coyote, the idea that he can die, which proves that he actually does exist? (or did, whatever heh)

Being not only a god, but a trickster one, I guess causality and physics just don't affect him the regular way... In his standalone "origin" comic, he's shown to have left America AND stayed there. He has also tried being dead (when he turned into the dead goose by the lake) and said he was so good at it that he tricked himself into believing he was dead... Until he grew bored and remembered he was Coyote.

There is an awesome panel in the chapter he tells the dead goose tale, in which the symbol that was being used to represent the goose is shown to actually be the tip of his tongue, like a trap (just as one of those fish that use their tongues as bait, like Coyote did to Annie when he pretended his mouth was a cave and his tongue was himself)

Maybe he'll be dead until he's not, just like that.

(And to think that's the power of the ether when shaped by human belief! Meanwhile Aatta & Co. want to "release" humankind from it)

Jul 26, 2021 8:48:05 GMT pylgrimm said:

GodDammit Coyote.

That said, he's such a really well-written trickster! I actually couldn't help to chuckle at his nakedly bad attempts at appearing contrite. I think that he honestly cares for Annie but he a) cannot change his trickster nature, b) he's an ancient demigod that cannot put himself in the shoes of a human being, and c) is not willing to change this little masterplan of his, decades in the making. For a being like that, using someone is not mutually exclusive with loving them and his being absolutely candid about it all is the way to show it.

True, the "being self-aware of his manipulative ways just to further his manipulation" act was hilarious.

As for the masterplan, I'd say it seems more like centuries in the making? Maybe milennia? How long has it been since he arrived in England? How long has he been into this dance with the court? Given the sheer extent of his power and how much he has been show to have everyone figured, it appears he has been guiding everyone at least since he stumbled upon the Court (if that is how it happened, like it's suggested by his stand alone comic). Any setbacks like an invincible vengeful ghost forcing a "stalemate" between Court and Woods are probably just affecting him because he finds it amusing

[yinglung]

Jul 26, 2021 8:44:24 GMT mochakimono said:

The vision of Annie at three different ages gives me Norn vibes, but I have no idea what that would actually mean in this context, so I'm chalking that up to coincidence, haha.

Perhaps it's simply a nod to how, in many ways, there are recurring themes of multiplicity and unity. How many characters now have had multiple souls, bodies, forms, etc.?

Which then makes me worried if Coyote means "tear at your soul" more literally than to imply the trauma of killing another. Perhaps there are more dire consequences involved when one kills a god. Dangerous backlash incoming?

I think the norn-ish vision is a sign that Coyote is and has manipulated Annie's fate. Notably, the oldest Annie is dressed like an elf or Ysengrin. This could be Coyote setting Annie up to lead the forest faction, having been put in the position of killing her predecessor, just as Ysengrin "killed" Coyote. I would not be surprised if we later find out that Coyote essentially lives on in the tooth, and acts as her advisor without revealing himself to the forest and thus having to take responsibility for ruling it.

[Fishy]

I double-checked this page's borders after reading that last line, because it felt a lot like we were about to start seeing time resume and have Coyote go "Alright well good luck with that, bye!"

[bicarbonat]

Jul 26, 2021 8:42:01 GMT speedwell said:

Coyote isn't acting any differently from any other "world god", folks, let alone any other trickster god. "I love you and this is gonna hurt" is typical of gods in general.

That said, Coyote is a personified force of nature, and what he's saying is going to happen is really not much more than "I'm going to let things take their course".

****

Say, why can something that was born because people believed in it die even though people still believe in him? Is that what flavours the experience for Coyote, the idea that he can die, which proves that he actually does exist? (or did, whatever heh)

First part: 100% agree

Second part: Think 'the reverse of "American Gods".' If he's even going to truly die at all, it'll be the part of him that came to GC - which is still flipping unfathomable to me, that he'd invest so much energy & time there. There's a (IMO) more basic-looking version of him still kicking around in the Americas.

[rabbit]

Given that Loup is less than the sum of his parts and has acknowledged that as well as the necessity of his death, will he attack, forcing Annie to kill him to protect her friends, or will this realization cause him rather to beg her to kill him in order to bring Coyote's plan to fruition? (The goal of which may be stopping Omega, saving the forest, foiling Bad Buddha-Boy, or...?)

Oh, and hello everyone from a long-time reader but new forum member! 

[ctso74]

I don't think she carries the Tooth on her. Renard usually carries it, right? That could mean, Eggs and George will be in deep trouble in few moments.
Narative-wise, I'm guessing she(or Renard) will use the Tooth when no one is looking. If the Court knew about the Tooth, I imagine Suit-Buddha would quickly yank it.

[aline]

Jul 26, 2021 14:26:31 GMT ctso74 said:

I don't think she carries the Tooth on her. Renard usually carries it, right? That could mean, Eggs and George will be in deep trouble in few moments.
Narative-wise, I'm guessing she(or Renard) will use the Tooth when no one is looking. If the Court knew about the Tooth, I imagine Suit-Buddha would quickly yank it.

I wouldn't worry about Eglamore and Parley, they are well equipped to get themselves out of the way. But Loup won't stop  his attack at the borders of the Forest and he already claimed that the Court's barrier couldn't stop him anymore. If he starts levelling buildings, things will get tense. 

Parley can teleport and Annie has a telepathic link with Rey, so getting to him to geretrieve the tooth shouldn't take more than seconds once Annie has made up her mind. The shadow men I think will be quite distracted by the homicidal god intent on ripping them into pieces. And since they don't even know the tooth exists, they might not even realize what is happening until it's already done. 

[bedinsis]

Coyote outright admits love for someone and Jones has claimed that he does not tell lies (therein lies the danger). The current situation makes me think he actually is lying... or maybe he meant "love you too much" as in "more than nothing". There are degrees of love after all.

I thought it was spelt "cowardice", not "cowardace".

Jul 26, 2021 12:35:10 GMT yinglung said:

Jul 26, 2021 8:44:24 GMT mochakimono said:

The vision of Annie at three different ages gives me Norn vibes, but I have no idea what that would actually mean in this context, so I'm chalking that up to coincidence, haha.

Perhaps it's simply a nod to how, in many ways, there are recurring themes of multiplicity and unity. How many characters now have had multiple souls, bodies, forms, etc.?

Which then makes me worried if Coyote means "tear at your soul" more literally than to imply the trauma of killing another. Perhaps there are more dire consequences involved when one kills a god. Dangerous backlash incoming?

I think the norn-ish vision is a sign that Coyote is and has manipulated Annie's fate. Notably, the oldest Annie is dressed like an elf or Ysengrin. This could be Coyote setting Annie up to lead the forest faction, having been put in the position of killing her predecessor, just as Ysengrin "killed" Coyote. I would not be surprised if we later find out that Coyote essentially lives on in the tooth, and acts as her advisor without revealing himself to the forest and thus having to take responsibility for ruling it.

I read the outfits as different ways Coyote has seen Annie... which coincidentally happens to line up on a matrix of outfits.

From left to right:
Forest casual
Court formal
Court casual
Forest formal

[Tenjen]

Wait. Is that a future annie?

[Gemminie]

So Coyote's just gotten done telling Annie that she's going to have to kill Loup with that dagger he gave her, and he's implied that this will result in the actual permanent deaths of Ysengrin and himself in addition to Loup. On this page, Annie looks ... very tired, actually, in addition to sad, as she asks him how he could possibly ask her to do that. Coyote looks mock-sad as he replies that in fact he can't ask her to do that.

We then see some visions of Annie as she appeared during her past interactions with Coyote and the Forest: Annie in her uniform from when she first went to talk to him, Annie in the outfit she wore when she returned to the Court after staying in the Forest, and Annie in her Forest Medium outfit. They're all shown with a stippled and grayish cast over them, probably to indicate that they're memories or illusions, whereas the unhappy-looking present Annie is in full color, as is Coyote. Coyote reflects on his hypocrisy, calling the Court cowards when he's too cowardly to do this act himself. ("Cowardice" is spelled wrong, or at least it was initially; perhaps Tom will have corrected it by the time you read this.) He claims to love Annie too much to ask her to outright murder Loup, so ...

Coyote then turns his head into a skull and says he'll have Loup force Annie to do it instead. His head has become a skull on numerous occasions in the past, usually when he's doing something related to his death plan. (Although ... when is he not doing something related to his plan?)

And as that's the end of the page, I'm unsure what to think about what will happen next. The wistful reminiscences of past Annies might indicate that this is some sort of goodbye; is this the last occasion on which we'll see Coyote? The panel frames remain gray, so time's still stopped, but will he immediately vanish and restart time for the next update? But Annie still doesn't have the dagger with her. I mean, I suppose the thing is more or less ethereal in nature, so perhaps Renard could somehow send it to her, given that he's usually in charge of keeping it safe. Or ... perhaps Coyote doesn't mean immediately. He may be talking about manipulating Loup into forcing her hand at a later time.

Now to read other people's comments!

[Gemminie]

Jul 26, 2021 8:42:01 GMT speedwell said:

Say, why can something that was born because people believed in it die even though people still believe in him? Is that what flavours the experience for Coyote, the idea that he can die, which proves that he actually does exist? (or did, whatever heh)

I absolutely agree with this. I don't see how we'll ever see the last of Coyote when tales are still told about him. Now one of those tales will be about how Coyote died. So his death will become part of his canon, just one more thing he's done. (In the end, won't that just give him one more power, the power to die?)

And besides, he also left himself in southwestern North America, so at the most we'll see the death of only this instantiation of Coyote.

[mzpx]

Jul 26, 2021 8:48:05 GMT pylgrimm said:

That said, he's such a really well-written trickster! I actually couldn't help to chuckle at his nakedly bad attempts at appearing contrite. I think that he honestly cares for Annie but he a) cannot change his trickster nature, b) he's an ancient demigod that cannot put himself in the shoes of a human being, and c) is not willing to change this little masterplan of his, decades in the making. For a being like that, using someone is not mutually exclusive with loving them and his being absolutely candid about it all is the way to show it.

Tom has said that Coyote doesn't really care about Annie.

Jul 26, 2021 15:18:40 GMT bedinsis said:

Coyote outright admits love for someone and Jones has claimed that he does not tell lies (therein lies the danger). The current situation makes me think he actually is lying... or maybe he meant "love you too much" as in "more than nothing". There are degrees of love after all.

He can lie though, if it pleases him. And this is one of those moments where, in a very twisted and dark way, it is funny for him to pretend that he loves Annie. What's funnier than mind-manipulating a random person into murdering three intelligent beings? Why, giving a false choice to a young teenager with whom you mutually love and appreciate each other! Ha ha.

By the way, we are kinda seeing Coyote doing the 'unforgivable' that Tom talked about all those years ago.

Jul 26, 2021 8:42:01 GMT speedwell said:

Say, why can something that was born because people believed in it die even though people still believe in him? Is that what flavours the experience for Coyote, the idea that he can die, which proves that he actually does exist? (or did, whatever heh)

My guess is that etheric beings represent fundamental human concepts rather than actual beings people believe in. Their appearance is simply flavoured by the traditions of the people where they were born. (So basically, I don't think it's American Gods/Discworld rules.) When Coyote talks about his own genesis, he seems to imply that he was born out of the human desire to assign supernatural power to the cruelty of nature. Another example: nobody has ever believed in Jones, but the human need to believe in something constant is pretty universal, and that's what she represents.

[crater]

it physically hurts to see Annie so sad

[TBeholder]

So, Coyote indeed isn't asking her, but simply put her in a position where she will have to do as he wants. He just wants to be nice about it. That's him, all right.
Now, a twist: what if Annie doesn't have the Tooth on her right now?

[maxptc]

Coyete thats the same as forcing her to murder, just with extra steps.

[machiavelli33]

Jul 26, 2021 8:44:24 GMT mochakimono said:

The vision of Annie at three different ages gives me Norn vibes, but I have no idea what that would actually mean in this context, so I'm chalking that up to coincidence, haha.

Something tells me its not coincidence.

The Norns weave and dictate fate.  What they say will always come to pass.

This...ALL this...was always meant to happen, I think.  Whether Coyote, Annie, or the Court wants it to or not.

[pylgrimm]

Jul 26, 2021 16:56:47 GMT mzpx said:

Jul 26, 2021 8:48:05 GMT pylgrimm said:

That said, he's such a really well-written trickster! I actually couldn't help to chuckle at his nakedly bad attempts at appearing contrite. I think that he honestly cares for Annie but he a) cannot change his trickster nature, b) he's an ancient demigod that cannot put himself in the shoes of a human being, and c) is not willing to change this little masterplan of his, decades in the making. For a being like that, using someone is not mutually exclusive with loving them and his being absolutely candid about it all is the way to show it.

Tom has said that Coyote doesn't really care about Annie.

Jul 26, 2021 15:18:40 GMT bedinsis said:

Coyote outright admits love for someone and Jones has claimed that he does not tell lies (therein lies the danger). The current situation makes me think he actually is lying... or maybe he meant "love you too much" as in "more than nothing". There are degrees of love after all.

He can lie though, if it pleases him. And this is one of those moments where, in a very twisted and dark way, it is funny for him to pretend that he loves Annie. What's funnier than mind-manipulating a random person into murdering three intelligent beings? Why, giving a false choice to a young teenager with whom you mutually love and appreciate each other! Ha ha.

By the way, we are kinda seeing Coyote doing the 'unforgivable' that Tom talked about all those years ago.

He didn't say that he doesn't care for her, just that consoling her was done for his own benefit. Loving somebody can be a very selfish thing. Also the way a being like him loves cannot really be expected to produce the same outcomes than a human love does (i.e. respect, compassion, etc). With this I am not trying to say that Coyote is good or doing a good thing. 

The reason why I believe he does love her is that he's letting know Annie that she's going to be a participant of his little plan, that she has no choice and that he's not going to risk her emotions getting in the way of fulfilling her established role. So, if he has made sure that everything is going to go as planned... what's the point of telling her? He could have just let things happen without stopping time.

[warrl]

The point of telling her may be so that she can (he hopes) blame him instead of herself.

[rylfrazier]

Makes me wonder if the effect of her "fire power" being doubled will play a role here. Annie is more than human and we've seen the non-human side of her come out a few times in ways that might be on the level of something that can hurt Loup or Coyote. We've never really seen her go "all out" against a person. Coyote has tremendous ability to manipulate the world and the ether, but if he just didn't defend himself for whatever reason Annie's fire would turn the physical part of Loup into ash pretty fast.

[Runningflame]

Coyote's sad face reminds me of this page... in which he can't make Annie do what he wants directly, so he tries to manipulate her using Ysengrin. Hmmm.

Jul 26, 2021 18:06:37 GMT maxptc said:

Coyete thats the same as forcing her to murder, just with extra steps.

If she does it to prevent Loup from killing people, it'll be more like justifiable homicide. (Deicide?) Not that that makes things much better. Coyote is acting a bit like a person who tries to get shot by the police.

[saardvark]

Jul 26, 2021 14:12:48 GMT rabbit said:

Given that Loup is less than the sum of his parts and has acknowledged that as well as the necessity of his death, will he attack, forcing Annie to kill him to protect her friends, or will this realization cause him rather to beg her to kill him in order to bring Coyote's plan to fruition? (The goal of which may be stopping Omega, saving the forest, foiling Bad Buddha-Boy, or...?)

Oh, and hello everyone from a long-time reader but new forum member! 

welcome to the forum, hoppy rodent!  I see you in my back yard often!

[zbeeblebrox]

Ha! Expected that, but didn't expect Coyote to be so straightforward about it.
I suppose he's not much of a 'lies of omission' kinda god

[jda]

Fun fact: on the various versions of Annie, only on present Annie the hairclip is visible.