[2495] Now leave us

[philman]

A magic man in charge of a collection of cowards, hmm

[theonethatgotaway]

*Ploink* just casually fingerflicking that dude away.

I am worried though, about Coyote already saying Loup will attack. If a trickster seemingly gets serious, things are about to go down.

[flowsthead]

Is that the first time Coyote has called his death a type of "sleep"? Since Coyote and Loup have both confirmed Loup will die, I wonder if Coyote will wake up from his sleep the same way the old Court robots did. As in, it is a real death, but a real death that can be reversed?

[imaginaryfriend]

I still think that Coyote's plan to die is more like adventure tourism than suicide.

[aline]

"We will rid ourselves of the schackles of the unseen world"
Looks like they are trying to erase the ether entirely. They do want to redesign the world, and erase all its etheric creatures, good or bad, big or small. They will either stop to exist or lose an essential part of their soul if the Court succeeds. This is horrifying on so many levels.

Does Jones know of this plan?

[shadow3]

I was really hoping for an epic showdown between Loup and a Coyote-empowered Renard (after drinking the lake water).

Hmm maybe the Omega project...

[V]

Hmm, Aata has the typical narrative of a dictator in this page.

One thing in what he says has me wondering. Why does he perceive the ether as shackles? I did not quite get the feeling that a common human being would be influenced, let alone impeded by it. There's two things I can think of:

1. Humans can't directly use the ether for their benefit. But then why would one use a slavery analogy? One would rather liken this to breaking a wall or something.
2. Humans are in fact slaving to the gods with their beliefs. They don't perceive it as limiting during their life, but come into duty after death. Maybe there's an alternative they seek to unlock. Could be freedom, could be paradise, could be immortality.

[mzpx]

Oh wow, first time we see Aata not smile. Then again, I suspect that even the most stoic person would get annoyed after being called bitter, cowardly and (implied) stupid. Coyote is looking extremely brattish in this page, what with calling the Court names, rudely cutting off the explanation, threatening Aata (while taking zero responsibility, as is his style) and then just flicks the person away. He really only cares about his own amusement.

Re. 'we will rid ourselves of the shackles of the unseen world', this is a pretty common metaphor among scientists. I have (in real life) heard Watson (from Watson and Crick of DNA structure fame) state that one of their principal motivations as scientists was so that they could chisel away at the need of using God to explain natural phenomena. An apocryphal story of Pierre-Simon Laplace is that when he presented Mécanique Céleste to Napoleon, and Napoleon asked where God was in it, Laplace replied 'I did not need to make that assumption'. (For the record, these days when it's generally agreed that religion and science operate in entirely different spheres with entirely different axioms, the sentiment is a lot less combative, of course. But the Court appears to be in the combative phase still, because the spheres and axioms have not been separated - perhaps that is their goal, they just don't realise that in the Gunnerkrigg world, the two spheres cannot be separated.)

[aline]

Jul 19, 2021 7:15:20 GMT V said:

Hmm, Aata has the typical narrative of a dictator in this page.

One thing in what he says has me wondering. Why does he perceive the ether as shackles? I did not quite get the feeling that a common human being would be influenced, let alone impeded by it. There's two things I can think of:

1. Humans can't directly use the ether for their benefit. But then why would one use a slavery analogy? One would rather liken this to breaking a wall or something.
2. Humans are in fact slaving to the gods with their beliefs. They don't perceive it as limiting during their life, but come into duty after death. Maybe there's an alternative they seek to unlock. Could be freedom, could be paradise, could be immortality.

I suspect it's similar to narratives like "such and such will be the downfall of society". 
They are not in any kind of actual shackles and if they could accept the world as it is and open their minds to it, they could accomplish extraordinary things. But they don't want to. They want a tidy world that follows the rules of physics, thank you very much.

Jones mentioned about the Court was founded when the humans who took refuge in the Forest "grew tired of etheric tenet". They didn't want magic in their lives.

[V]

Jul 19, 2021 7:33:13 GMT mzpx said:

Oh wow, first time we see Aata not smile. Then again, I suspect that even the most stoic person would get annoyed after being called bitter, cowardly and (implied) stupid. Coyote is looking extremely brattish in this page, what with calling the Court names, rudely cutting off the explanation, threatening Aata (while taking zero responsibility, as is his style) and then just flicks the person away. He really only cares about his own amusement.

Re. 'we will rid ourselves of the shackles of the unseen world', this is a pretty common metaphor among scientists. I have (in real life) heard Watson (from Watson and Crick of DNA structure fame) state that one of their principal motivations as scientists was so that they could chisel away at the need of using God to explain natural phenomena. An apocryphal story of Pierre-Simon Laplace is that when he presented Mécanique Céleste to Napoleon, and Napoleon asked where God was in it, Laplace replied 'I did not need to make that assumption'. (For the record, these days when it's generally agreed that religion and science operate in entirely different spheres with entirely different axioms, the sentiment is a lot less combative, of course. But the Court appears to be in the combative phase still, because the spheres and axioms have not been separated - perhaps that is their goal, they just don't realise that in the Gunnerkrigg world, the two spheres cannot be separated.)

These are good quotations, but I think they could actually add to my point, rather than oppose it. If you're dependent on God in your understanding of the world, would you say you're in his shackles? Me, I think it's more like becoming independent of a parent than breaking free from a slaver.

Congratulations for meeting J.D. Watson by the way!

[V]

Also, it's refreshing to hear that for once all is someone else's fault than Annie's (or the elf kids, of course)!

[arf]

I suspect Coyote's final warning was more for fire head girl's safety than Aata and co. She's going to need protection.

[arf]

Jul 19, 2021 8:05:03 GMT V said:

Also, it's refreshing to hear that for once all is someone else's fault than Annie's (or the elf kids, of course)!

"You know what? Screw those elf kids! It was never their damn fault, anyway. *This* guy, on the other hand..."

[madjack]

Depending on what state Loup is in after the timestop ends, I hope Eggers has more in his bag of tricks because getting everyone out of this unscathed is going to be a challenge.

[aline]

Jul 19, 2021 8:03:17 GMT V said:

Me, I think it's more like becoming independent of a parent than breaking free from a slaver.

I think from a Gunnerkrigg Court World point of view, it's more like stamping on the ground because gravity dares to impede your progress and look for ways to remove one of the forces of the universe from the world.
The difference is that in Gunnerkrigg, the ether exists as more than a theory. This isn't a philsosophical debate "was the universe created by God or by discoverable laws of nature". They're not arguing whether or not magic exists, they know magic exists and want it to stop existing.
Childish, irresponsible, and a blunt demonstration of a complete lack of understanding of the working of their world because I suspect the consequences of their meddling would be far more serious than they imagine if we look at what Coyote's death did to Gillitie Woods.

[mzpx]

Jul 19, 2021 8:03:17 GMT V said:

These are good quotations, but I think they could actually add to my point, rather than oppose it. If you're dependent on God in your understanding of the world, would you say you're in his shackles? Me, I think it's more like becoming independent of a parent than breaking free from a slaver.

I'd argue that's what scientists and therefore the Court would say, yes. When I was young, intelligent design was still being presented as a potentially credible alternative to evolution and it did feel suffocating (by the way, given that 'shackles' is used a lot metaphorically, e.g. 'earthly shackles', I don't immediately associate it with a master-slaver relationship - but I wonder if Aata is, like you are suggesting). Not saying that's the same for the average human, but the Court is a scientific organisation, so it's heavily biased from that point of view. The Court is clearly taking it to the extreme and there is the not inconsiderable difference between the Gunnerkrigg universe and ours that you literally cannot separate the unseen from the seen without breaking (likely) both.

Now I'm actually wondering if the comic is supposed to be an intentional social commentary from Tom, actually, about how trying to separate the two spheres isn't necessarily good, even in the real world? Back when he started writing, people like Richard Dawkins were very big and they were clearly going towards a Court-like extreme.

Congratulations for meeting J.D. Watson by the way!

Thanks - I've felt ambivalent about that ever since due to all the terrible things he's said and I was fully prepared to just stand up and walk out if he started saying anything in that direction, but it was also a rare opportunity to hear from someone who was active during those very exciting times.

[jocobo]

Jul 19, 2021 7:15:20 GMT V said:

Hmm, Aata has the typical narrative of a dictator in this page.

One thing in what he says has me wondering. Why does he perceive the ether as shackles? I did not quite get the feeling that a common human being would be influenced, let alone impeded by it. There's two things I can think of:

1. Humans can't directly use the ether for their benefit. But then why would one use a slavery analogy? One would rather liken this to breaking a wall or something.
2. Humans are in fact slaving to the gods with their beliefs. They don't perceive it as limiting during their life, but come into duty after death. Maybe there's an alternative they seek to unlock. Could be freedom, could be paradise, could be immortality.

Personally my first thought was option number two.

Every since we first learned of how the Ether works(or at least, how creatures like Coyote are born), it's struck me as parasitic in nature. Humans live and then are essentially harvested for the sake of creatures who, overall, seem disdainful toward them at best and outright violently hostile at worse. Even toward humans who actively seek kinship. And while one could argue the attitude is mutual, it really isn't. The Court is mutually disdainful, yes. But the average person doesn't even know such beings exist.

I'm reminded of the little boy being tormented by Hettie. How many similar situations of misfortune do normal people suffer, tormented by entities they don't even know exist, for slights they don't even know they caused?

It would not be entirely unreasonable from this point of view , in a world of uncaring Gods and Monsters, for Mankind to seek to make his own. A sympathetic one, who could protect man from the predation of other etheric beings. It's not even that different from the role Kat is unintentionally taking on fro the Robots who themselves are slaves to uncaring masters int eh form of humans.

[pylgrimm]

Jul 19, 2021 7:15:20 GMT V said:

Hmm, Aata has the typical narrative of a dictator in this page.

One thing in what he says has me wondering. Why does he perceive the ether as shackles? I did not quite get the feeling that a common human being would be influenced, let alone impeded by it. There's two things I can think of:

1. Humans can't directly use the ether for their benefit. But then why would one use a slavery analogy? One would rather liken this to breaking a wall or something.
2. Humans are in fact slaving to the gods with their beliefs. They don't perceive it as limiting during their life, but come into duty after death. Maybe there's an alternative they seek to unlock. Could be freedom, could be paradise, could be immortality.

Since the psychopomps are ehteric creatures, maybe they are under the (likely misguided) belief that eliminating the connection between the ether and the physical (I honestly don't think they're planning genocide, simply a separation) will eliminate death?

[ohthatone]

Jul 19, 2021 8:05:03 GMT V said:

Also, it's refreshing to hear that for once all is someone else's fault than Annie's (or the elf kids, of course)!

Yes but is aata going to own it or just let the blame stay with Annie? If someone does die from this, it would be super easy for someone coming out of the time stop to blame annie for riling Loup, and aata could just whistle and look the other way.
I mean, he *could* also casually claim responsibility ("it seems we've miscalculated" or something equally cold), I guess it depends on how much he needs the fire head girl free.

[todd]

One question: does Aata's statement about the Court's goals on this page genuinely reflect the Court's overall agenda, or is it his perspective? The previous page revealed that he had an etheric nature himself - though we don't know whether he's an etheric being who's changing into a human or the other way around - and that may give him a different angle on the Court's doings than the "regular human" members. (Much like how, in the conspiracy to murder Jeanne and turn her into a vengeful ghost, most of the Court were seeing it as a defense against Gilltie Wood, but DIego was seeing it as revenge for her rejecting him.)

But Aata's words suggest (if he truly is voicing the Court's goals and not his own motivation) that the Court really does intend to destroy the etheric world after all. I had thought until now that the Court's intention was simply to find out how the ether worked, explain it scientifically, and didn't realize the side effects. However, now it seems that this may be intentional after all.

The "rid ourselves of the shackles of the unseen world" part might indeed be an attempt at doing away with the trouble that etheric beings like Coyote and Loup have caused - an attempt to free humanity from living in terror of the doings of gods and monsters. (Though presumably wiping out even the etheric beings who don't prey on humans - maybe with a tone of "We don't have the luxury of sorting them out".) Note, also, that there were hints that the Court's founders came to Gilltie Wood in the first place to escape war or persecution in the human world; humans don't need etheric beings around to produce misery, suffering, and fear in their lives, but are all too capable of inflicting such woes on each other.

One other question, stemming from the indication that the Court may be deliberately trying to destroy the ether after all. A lot of the Court humans have etheric qualities. What becomes of them, if the Court succeeds? Maybe they'll simply become ordinary humans, of course (which would free Annie from the fate of Surma, say, or Zimmy from her constant torment) - but I wouldn't be completely certain of that. Maybe most of the Court leaders (except for Aata) are ordinary humans and see it as not their problem, while Aata might be willing to sacrifice himself for the Cause.

[pyradonis]

Jul 19, 2021 7:45:13 GMT aline said:

Jones mentioned about the Court was founded when the humans who took refuge in the Forest "grew tired of etheric tenet". They didn't want magic in their lives.

And then of all places they decided to settle in the heart of a forest filled to the brim with mystical and magical creatures. What could ever go wrong with this?

Jul 19, 2021 8:16:41 GMT madjack said:

Depending on what state Loup is in after the timestop ends, I hope Eggers has more in his bag of tricks because getting everyone out of this unscathed is going to be a challenge.

*Time stop ends*
*Parley grabs Eglamore and Annie*
*BIP*
Annie: But what about the Shadow Men?
Eglamore: Screw those Shadow Men.

Parley: This is their GD fault in the first place.

[todd]

Jul 19, 2021 12:54:30 GMT pyradonis said:

Jul 19, 2021 7:45:13 GMT aline said:

Jones mentioned about the Court was founded when the humans who took refuge in the Forest "grew tired of etheric tenet". They didn't want magic in their lives.

And then of all places they decided to settle in the heart of a forest filled to the brim with mystical and magical creatures. What could ever go wrong with this?

I had the impression that the "grew tired of etheric tenet" came about after they settled in Gilltie Wood.

[ohthatone]

I just love everything about the second panel. The haughty, indignant, beautifully drawn aata about to righteously monolog juxtaposed with coyoteduck completey blowing him off.

[aline]

Jul 19, 2021 13:21:23 GMT todd said:

Jul 19, 2021 12:54:30 GMT pyradonis said:

And then of all places they decided to settle in the heart of a forest filled to the brim with mystical and magical creatures. What could ever go wrong with this?

I had the impression that the "grew tired of etheric tenet" came about after they settled in Gilltie Wood.

I mean if you settle in the Alps and grow tired of mountains you could always go look for a plain instead. Or, apparently, embark on a cross-generational quest to level all mountains.

[worldsong]

I guess this is how Coyote acts when he genuinely doesn't like someone. Usually he's just having fun.

[Gemminie]

The Court needs to steal Coyote's power to make its plans work. Coyote both asks Aata whether that's true and states that it is. He calls the Court cowards and its plans cowardly. Well, at the very least, the plan to steal Coyote's power was cowardly; it was a secret attack made via stealth. Aata's ethereal presence is wobbly and shifting, as if it is unstable. Perhaps it's very difficult to manifest in this particular realm, and it's the best he can manage.

Aata reacts with indignation. He doesn't really refute Coyote's accusation of cowardice; it's more like he dismisses it as irrelevant. Whatever they have to do to free mankind from the "shackles of the unseen world," they'll do. So they do consider the Ether and its inscrutable ways to be a restriction. I think this supports the theory that they're basically working toward a push-button world where anyone can get anything they want at any time by just flipping a switch, tapping on a computer screen, or whatever. Humans create technology to make life more convenient for them, and the Court aims to take this program to the ultimate conclusion. I doubt that will involve getting rid of the Ether; it's a matter of enslaving it to human will. There will be no more chaos; all will be in order. (That's the plan, anyway.) Rolling his eyes, Coyote cuts Aata off; he's heard it all before. He's got something to tell Annie that he doesn't want Aata to hear. I'm sure Aata will ask her about it later, though ... assuming he remembers. And survives.

Now Coyote says a few important things: "when I return Fire Head Girl" means that he's the one who pulled Annie into the time-stopped Ether here so he could talk to her; that wasn't Annie's doing. He predicts Loup will attack "you" in rage, probably meaning Aata personally, but he might also mean the Shadow Men, or even everyone from the Court other than Annie. And he blames it on Aata, and I personally can't gainsay that; Aata was the one who formulated and initiated the plan to steal Coyote's powers, after all. They didn't have to steal the lake water from Annie, and they didn't have commandeer the mission to return it to Loup. I wouldn't want to be in Aata's shoes right now ... though he may have some sort of a backup plan to survive this.

Then, with a wave of a paw and a POF, Coyote dismisses Aata from his presence. He has something to say to Annie, and possibly to Loup, and he doesn't want an audience. Will we learn about the plan at long last?

[bicarbonat]

I think I'm liking my Aata guess more and more.

[ctso74]

Jul 19, 2021 7:14:36 GMT shadow3 said:

I was really hoping for an epic showdown between Loup and a Coyote-empowered Renard (after drinking the lake water).

Hmm maybe the Omega project...

One day, we'll see Renard's Magical Girl transformation. For background music, I'd go with "She's got the power"... One day...

[pyradonis]

Jul 19, 2021 14:56:32 GMT Gemminie said:

 I think this supports the theory that they're basically working toward a push-button world where anyone can get anything they want at any time by just flipping a switch, tapping on a computer screen, or whatever.

[Gemminie]

Jul 19, 2021 12:50:32 GMT todd said:

One question: does Aata's statement about the Court's goals on this page genuinely reflect the Court's overall agenda, or is it his perspective?

Depending on how influential Aata is in the Court, that may not matter. If he runs the show, his perspective and the Court's agenda are one and the same.

we don't know whether [Aata is] an etheric being who's changing into a human or the other way around

Well, consider the humans we know of who can enter the Ether. Annie can, though she's part fire, not 100% human. Anja can, and it seems to go with being Gitana, though she may need a blinker stone. Zimmy can, though she enters involuntarily and only goes to Trauma Horror World. Gamma may be able to, but it seems as if she goes to more of a telepathic mind space region. Jack can, but we don't know how good he is at it lately. All of these people have an etheric talent. Even Parley and Paz might be able to learn how to do it, if they had a reason to train in the ability. The most likely scenario (IMO) is that Aata is a human with an etheric talent (either randomly or because he's a descendant of some etheric entity), and he's trained himself to be able to project his consciousness into the Ether.

But Aata's words suggest (if he truly is voicing the Court's goals and not his own motivation) that the Court really does intend to destroy the etheric world after all. I had thought until now that the Court's intention was simply to find out how the ether worked, explain it scientifically, and didn't realize the side effects. However, now it seems that this may be intentional after all.

It seemed to me more that he didn't want to destroy the etheric world, but rather destroy its randomness. After all, who/what decides who gets etheric talents and who doesn't? That's completely obscure, and it certainly has some measure of ineffability to it. And maybe that's a good word to use. Ineffable means "impossible to describe in words," which is fairly close to "impossible to describe in scientific terms." I think the Court wants to eliminate the Ether's innefability. The only control humans have over the Ether right now is via the beliefs people take with them into it when they die, and the control that certain talented individuals can exert upon it. Neither of those is truly fully controllable – the first because different people have different beliefs, the second because there's no predicting who's going to have etheric talents, or what they'll be. The Court, it seems to me, wants to turn the Ether from ineffable magic into predictable technology.

humans don't need etheric beings around to produce misery, suffering, and fear in their lives, but are all too capable of inflicting such woes on each other.

No, they don't, and what's odd is that the Court doesn't seem to be considering what happens when there are multiple godlike humans with absolute control over the Ether. There will inevitably be conflict. Is that a blind spot? Or are they considering that, and are they planning to simply make sure that they're the ones with the power? That, however, would make Aata's statement about the Court's goals (that they want the whole human race to have this power) a lie.

One other question, stemming from the indication that the Court may be deliberately trying to destroy the ether after all. A lot of the Court humans have etheric qualities. What becomes of them, if the Court succeeds? Maybe they'll simply become ordinary humans, of course (which would free Annie from the fate of Surma, say, or Zimmy from her constant torment) - but I wouldn't be completely certain of that. Maybe most of the Court leaders (except for Aata) are ordinary humans and see it as not their problem, while Aata might be willing to sacrifice himself for the Cause.

Well, besides the fact that I don't think they're actually planning to destroy the Ether, I think they see the present age (where some humans have etheric talents and the Court has gathered them from the four corners of the Earth) as a transitional stage. Soon the ones without etheric talents will have control of vast etheric power, far stronger than the people with random natural talents, who will obviously want to ignore those inferior abilities in favor of this new predictable and versatile technology. After all, maybe you can teleport over short distances like Parley, but why would you want to use that when you can use this new device, which can teleport you anywhere on Earth and conjure you a drink too?