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Post by hp on Jul 19, 2021 16:27:40 GMT
(...)2.Humans are in fact slaving to the gods with their beliefs. They don't perceive it as limiting during their life, but come into duty after death. Maybe there's an alternative they seek to unlock. Could be freedom, could be paradise, could be immortality. (...) Every since we first learned of how the Ether works(or at least, how creatures like Coyote are born), it's struck me as parasitic in nature. Humans live and then are essentially harvested for the sake of creatures who, overall, seem disdainful toward them at best and outright violently hostile at worse. (...)
The tragic in that situation is, as Coyote put it, the ether is shaped by human beliefs. They are its masters rather than its slaves. If its current arrangement is "slaving", that is brought about by how human society acts and thinks, how they interact. If they changed their outlook on life and how they relate to each other, the ether would come to reflect that and maybe enable a healthier relationship between humanity and that aspect of reality. But the court is so indoctrinated into that mindset that they plan to destroy a fundamental layer of reality instead of relearning how to think about it.
That way of of thinking reminds me of the way people in the real world react to its problems. We live in a material situation organized under a mode of production, the power hierarchies it brings about, and the symbolic/cultural structures shaped by that arrangement to legitimize itself. That arrangement is tailored to benefit whoever is on top of those power hierarchies and that causes a whole lot of contradictions, inefficiencies, etc. People get dissatisfacted and angry at that, but they were indoctrinated and propagandized into thinking the arrangement is fine, and their less-than-ideal situation is their own fault, due to their lack of inteligence, diligence, working ethic, effort, whatever... So the disgruntled people see the contradictions but can't signify them correctly and will turn nihilist towards politics (which is just a regular tool of organizing society) thinking it's "all the same".
Now and then someone will try to engage that disgruntlement and harness it into political action. If people learn to break the indoctrination and signify the problems they see, that can be driven into actual changing the source of all the contradictions. But some actors try to engage that dissatisfaction without actually addressing their cause. Instead, they ellect scapegoats and drive people into action that change nothing, is actually detrimental and only preserve the hierarchies that generate the grievances.
Like the way fascism instrumentalizes the working class' grievances to defend the power structures that created them. Or, for instance, the question of antropogenic global warming, and how the economic players who benefited from causing it are now trying to pin guilt on individual behaviors. Some of them even recognize the problem but they only get to the point of proposing carbon markets, green financing, filtering the sun, colonising Mars, printing their brochiures on recycled paper, and such — carefully avoiding the elephant in the room which is a society organized by profit-driven exploitation, instead of by human needs, and how it is unsustainable.
The Court seems to be acting in that way. They have an unhealthy relationship to ether, which is a fundamental aspect of reality and themselves. But they are trying to solve it from the same ideological mindframe that made that relationship become unhealthy in the first place, and will end up just further harming themselves. When what they actually needed is to embrace it, and restablish the previous harmonical balance in the way their science interacted with their natural aspect.
Sorry for the long post.
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 19, 2021 17:51:55 GMT
"We will rid ourselves of the schackles of the unseen world" Looks like they are trying to erase the ether entirely. Humans are in fact slaving to the gods with their beliefs. They don't perceive it as limiting during their life, but come into duty after death. Maybe there's an alternative they seek to unlock. Could be freedom, could be paradise, could be immortality. Re. 'we will rid ourselves of the shackles of the unseen world', this is a pretty common metaphor among scientists. So they do consider the Ether and its inscrutable ways to be a restriction. [..] I doubt that will involve getting rid of the Ether; it's a matter of enslaving it to human will. There will be no more chaos; all will be in order. By my count, we have had 4 really quite different options, which is quite impressive on a single page of comments!  Here is a fifth (that I've kinda alluded to previously): they are seeking to completely separate the human spheres and the etheric spheres, because it's grinding their gears. Given that both spheres depend on each other, I don't think they are quite getting that this would cause the destruction of both. Oh well, I suppose we'll find out at some point. |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 19, 2021 18:10:09 GMT
The Court needs to steal Coyote's power to make its plans work. That's what Coyote says, but it could be interpreted in many ways, e.g. they only need it temporarily to study it and then they'll return it. Does that make the plan cowardly, or does it make the plan clever and efficient, minimising damage? A full frontal attack would have inevitably hurt Court employees and innocent Forest creatures, and it probably wouldn't have worked. (Freeing Jeanne was also a secret attack made via stealth, but there was nothing cowardly about it.) I thought he just considers the same actions differently, just like he doesn't consider himself bitter, like in the previous page. But that's up to interpretation, of course. I mean, they kinda did, last time Annie went into the Forest, she managed to rile up Loup so much that he expelled all the elves. That made it very clear that Annie doesn't quite appreciate just how powerful Loup is and how he could easily wipe out the Court any minute. This time, she went even further, sending him into such a rage that he was about to attack the Court. She hasn't really been doing well as a medium, to be honest. |
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 19, 2021 18:41:27 GMT
But Aata's words suggest (if he truly is voicing the Court's goals and not his own motivation) that the Court really does intend to destroy the etheric world after all. I had thought until now that the Court's intention was simply to find out how the ether worked, explain it scientifically, and didn't realize the side effects. However, now it seems that this may be intentional after all. The ether is defined by its unexplainabilaty. So that has to change. Is there a really a distinction between changing something drastically, and destroying what it once was? So they do consider the Ether and its inscrutable ways to be a restriction. I think this supports the theory that they're basically working toward a push-button world where anyone can get anything they want at any time by just flipping a switch, tapping on a computer screen, or whatever. Humans create technology to make life more convenient for them, and the Court aims to take this program to the ultimate conclusion. I doubt that will involve getting rid of the Ether; it's a matter of enslaving it to human will. There will be no more chaos; all will be in order. (That's the plan, anyway.) That seems off to me. "Magic Buttons" are still unexplainable phenomenon... Technical people call such things "black boxes", and it can fundamentally never be trusted. How do you know it'll keep doing exactly what you want it to do, and nothing else, forever? (You don't.) My understanding is that the true driving force behind technological advancement is technical-minded people following their natural desires. First, Scientists do stuff just to see what happens. They write down what they see, look for patterns, and relentlessly tear each others' opinions to shreds. Ideas which survive the often brutal peer-review and testing process become Theories. Second, Engineers apply that knowledge to solve "interesting" problems. Often just because it's cool and/or to avoid manual labor. Businessmen hire them to solve the problem of "I promised that the product can do X". Both types of people absolutely abhor unpredictability. Scientists hate it because it prevents them from really understanding what's going on, Engineers hate it because they can only pray that what they make will actually work. Both would likely take something like the Ether as a challenge at first, like a mountain climber might see a 50-mile-high mountain, and I suspect such was the opinion of the early Court. But after generations of failure to make lasting progress, is it any wonder they're bitter? Hm... Kind of reminds one of Diego, doesn't it? Infatuation turned to jealousy... |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 19, 2021 19:00:52 GMT
Fast response to complex topic: In my reading of the comic (from the perspective of a reader) there appears to be causality in the ether, though it may be retroactive or difficult to attribute. Most humans can't see in the correct way to make connections between etheric cause and effect, or lack the context to make a connection even if they can, and for those people etheric things "just happen." An encounter with a 'pomp after death is likely the first and only contact with the etheric that such people will have during their existence such as we know it, though imagined etheric experiences are probably at least as common in the Gunnerverse as they are irl. A few may have genuine encounters during their lifetime, but these encounters are not always positive (remember Hetty?). Other humans can manipulate the ether and some can peer into the ether in the necessary way and perceive whys and perhaps something of hows, though I'd argue that at some level there will always be an "it just does." This inequality would seem to allow for the possibility of advancement of a body of knowledge about things etheric phenomena, though also the danger that hypotheses can become self-fulfilling if popular enough. And it is not just the beings of the etherium that humanity is served and/or oppressed by in the Gunnerverse, but the conventions, superstitions, and errors of generations now departed. Escape from this powerful form of dead hand control would be an attractive proposition in itself, but to those willing to embrace the more "distasteful" methods there may be pathways to goals that cannot be achieved with mere human methods. Given what we've been told about the Court's disposition I think it's reasonable to assume that they've been attempting to make sense of etheric phenomena in a universal way and are testing their theories by performing experiments. The Court is made of individuals and probably not all of them are altruistic pioneers and seekers of knowledge; probably a few would embrace unsavory etheric science if they could achieve particular ends with them. I think overall the Court wishes to either displace the beings of the etherium (the superstitions of their ancestors incarnate) from their various thrones or tame them, to force them and/or to adhere to what they would deem rational rules.
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Post by OrzBrain on Jul 19, 2021 21:04:40 GMT
It's very interesting what Coyote says about the Court needing his power for their cowardly designs.
I wonder if Coyote's "death" is about depriving them of the opportunity to acquire this power, and his plan is about making his sort of but not really "death" into an actual no coming back Death.
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 19, 2021 21:28:49 GMT
That seems off to me. "Magic Buttons" are still unexplainable phenomenon... I didn't say it would be a "magic button." I said the Court seems to want a push-button means of manipulating the Ether that any human can use, not just the ones with inborn etheric talents. Just as people all over the world use computers every day without really knowing how they work, people could use this Ether technology and wouldn't necessarily know how it worked. But there would be some who understood it, just as there are some who understand how to manufacture microchips. Aata's goal, from how I read it at least, is for anyone to be able to take advantage of the Ether's power, no matter whether they were born with a special etheric talent or not. They might have to learn which buttons to push, but that would be acceptable, as long as it's a skill that anyone sufficiently motivated could learn. The point is that it wouldn't depend on being born with some special etheric talent. That's not the kind of thing I'm talking about. To the technical people, it wouldn't be a "black box." They'd know how it worked. People who were experts in other areas wouldn't necessarily know that, but it would still work for them. Unless it broke, then they'd take it to the experts in that technology, just as with anything else. When the auto mechanic's Ether box breaks down, they take it to the ethericist for repairs, and the ethericist takes their car to the auto mechanic when it breaks down.I'm talking about technology in the more abstract sense of invention or tool-making. If it's raining, a tent made out of sticks and animal hides is technology; it creates a space in which it's not raining. That didn't really require anybody to come up with a scientific hypothesis or theory as we know it; just inventiveness. And anyone can make it, if they learn how. In an abstract sense technology begins with a need. Maybe some science is involved in filling that need, but maybe not. |
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 19, 2021 22:33:14 GMT
I didn't say it would be a "magic button." I said the Court seems to want a push-button means of manipulating the Ether that any human can use, not just the ones with inborn etheric talents. Just as people all over the world use computers every day without really knowing how they work, people could use this Ether technology and wouldn't necessarily know how it worked. But there would be some who understood it, just as there are some who understand how to manufacture microchips. Aata's goal, from how I read it at least, is for anyone to be able to take advantage of the Ether's power, no matter whether they were born with a special etheric talent or not. They might have to learn which buttons to push, but that would be acceptable, as long as it's a skill that anyone sufficiently motivated could learn. The point is that it wouldn't depend on being born with some special etheric talent. I think our difference of opinion is in what each of us think is the main goal. I believe the main goal is simply to make ether fundamentally predictable, just like physics. That this would allow for ether-based technology is just a natural benefit. You believe the primary goal is to make ether-based technology, and making the ether explainable is just a necessary stepping stone to achieving this. (Unless you don't think that's necessary, in which case I have more words for you.) Ultimately, there isn't enough evidence yet to prove which is true, so we're at an impass. (Actually, it's possible that both motivations are present among the members of the Court...) |
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heranje
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Oh super wow!
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Post by heranje on Jul 19, 2021 22:33:26 GMT
More and more fascinated by what Aata's identity could be.
There's clear Buddhist imagery in his etheric form, but it seems wobbly, like he's having trouble holding it together or staying in the ether at all.
Coyote remarks on his bitterness and calls him "failed cousin", which suggests he may have tried to become a God or etheric being at some point. Or originally was one and lost his etheric power, perhaps by people losing faith in him?
Though Coyote is surprised to see him in the ether, which suggests he either didn't start out as an etheric being or was thoroughly moored to the material realm.
I think it would be weird for Tom to bring in Budai as an antagonist considering he's a major contemporary deity (ish) even though that's definitely what his aesthetic borrows from, but I suppose Aata could be another Bodhisattva. The "shackles" line also reminds me of the buddhist idea of being trapped in the cycle of rebirth, suffering/desire and the material world.
Though... generally Coyote only calls Renard and Ysengrin cousin, right? It's not his catch-all term for other etheric beings, it's specifically his etheric dog-cousins? Can't really think of a mythological dog-creature that's related to Buddhism, beyond fu dogs and those are supposed to be lions, they were just named dogs by westerners...
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 19, 2021 22:42:18 GMT
Coyote remarks on his bitterness and calls him "failed cousin", which suggests he may have tried to become a God or etheric being at some point. Or originally was one and lost his etheric power, perhaps by people losing faith in him? Or he just tried to become a god and failed, just now. |
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heranje
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Oh super wow!
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Post by heranje on Jul 19, 2021 22:53:37 GMT
Coyote remarks on his bitterness and calls him "failed cousin", which suggests he may have tried to become a God or etheric being at some point. Or originally was one and lost his etheric power, perhaps by people losing faith in him? Or he just tried to become a god and failed, just now. Hmm, I don't know. The "bitterness" comment has me thinking the failure was something that happened a while ago, which has left Aata bitter towards the ether. It also looked to me like whatever happened to Coyote wasn't an attempt to funnel his power into Aata but to trap it in a machine. Could be wrong, though. |
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Post by todd on Jul 19, 2021 23:52:33 GMT
That, however, would make Aata's statement about the Court's goals (that they want the whole human race to have this power) a lie. It reminds me a bit of N.I.C.E. in C. S. Lewis's "That Hideous Strength" again, where they start off claiming that the benefits of the work they're at will be for the human race, and then make it clear, as the story continues, that it'll be just for a few humans (namely, the ones running the Institute). |
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Post by todd on Jul 19, 2021 23:55:59 GMT
Ultimately, there isn't enough evidence yet to prove which is true, so we're at an impass. (Actually, it's possible that both motivations are present among the members of the Court...) Especially since the word is "members" - meaning several people, each of whom would have a different viewpoint and agendas. Coyote cuts off Aata before he can finish the "mission statement" - thus keeping the mystery about the Court's goals continuing. But this does mark the first occasion that one of the people in an authority position at the Court (as opposed to an "outsider" like Coyote or Zimmy) is talking about what those goals are. |
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Post by speedwell on Jul 20, 2021 0:03:03 GMT
That, however, would make Aata's statement about the Court's goals (that they want the whole human race to have this power) a lie. It reminds me a bit of N.I.C.E. in C. S. Lewis's "That Hideous Strength" again, where they start off claiming that the benefits of the work they're at will be for the human race, and then make it clear, as the story continues, that it'll be just for a few humans (namely, the ones running the Institute). Oooh, I just posted this in another thread. |
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Post by blahzor on Jul 20, 2021 0:26:01 GMT
Jones mentioned about the Court was founded when the humans who took refuge in the Forest "grew tired of etheric tenet". They didn't want magic in their lives. And then of all places they decided to settle in the heart of a forest filled to the brim with mystical and magical creatures. What could ever go wrong with this? Depending on what state Loup is in after the timestop ends, I hope Eggers has more in his bag of tricks because getting everyone out of this unscathed is going to be a challenge. *Time stop ends* *Parley grabs Eglamore and Annie* *BIP* Annie: But what about the Shadow Men? Eglamore: Screw those Shadow Men. Parley: This is their GD fault in the first place.
turns out all of the shadow men were elf kids in the past on the first steal attempt |
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 20, 2021 0:49:20 GMT
That, however, would make Aata's statement about the Court's goals ( that they want the whole human race to have this power) a lie. That's the thing--he didn't say that. "What we create will benefit all of man." Not that it would give etheric powers to all of man, or even that all of man would be able to use it in some form. If the Court gains power, wields that power itself, but uses it to cure disease or destroy beings like Hetty, they could still claim that their actions benefit the whole human race. (I am, of course, skeptical of this claim.) |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 20, 2021 2:16:12 GMT
Or he just tried to become a god and failed, just now. Hmm, I don't know. The "bitterness" comment has me thinking the failure was something that happened a while ago, which has left Aata bitter towards the ether. It also looked to me like whatever happened to Coyote wasn't an attempt to funnel his power into Aata but to trap it in a machine. Could be wrong, though. Yeah, we know so little at this point, so it's hard to say, but the bitterness doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Coyote. Maybe it does, I don't know. It seems like there are two general families of possibility: Aata is human, or he isn't. If he's human, maybe he's just etherically talented but has some kind of bitterness associated with it in his past (maybe related to Coyote, but maybe something that happened in his country of origin instead), and he was picked by the Court, possibly for both reasons. If he isn't human, we still don't know whether his bitterness has to do with Coyote or not. So ... yeah, my usual method of talking the subject to death kinda fails because of not enough information. Oh well, hehe. |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 20, 2021 2:31:56 GMT
That, however, would make Aata's statement about the Court's goals ( that they want the whole human race to have this power) a lie. That's the thing--he didn't say that. "What we create will benefit all of man." Not that it would give etheric powers to all of man, or even that all of man would be able to use it in some form. If the Court gains power, wields that power itself, but uses it to cure disease or destroy beings like Hetty, they could still claim that their actions benefit the whole human race. (I am, of course, skeptical of this claim.) Now that you mention that, I think you're right – he can be telling the truth (as he sees it, of course) as long as he believes the entire human race will benefit from whatever it is the Court is planning. They don't necessarily have to give the entire human race access to the etheric power of whatever variety it turns out to be. (Again, from their point of view.) |
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Post by warrl on Jul 20, 2021 6:48:22 GMT
Hmm, Aata has the typical narrative of a dictator in this page. One thing in what he says has me wondering. Why does he perceive the ether as shackles? Wannabe dictators do tend to describe anything that prevents them from forcing others into compliance as a shackle... I think Aata wants a deterministic universe, not realizing two things: 1) if he got it, its deterministic nature would confine him just as much as everyone else 2) he won't get it because the material universe is not deterministic. Quantum mechanics, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle... all solid science... |
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Post by warrl on Jul 20, 2021 7:04:55 GMT
If you're dependent on God in your understanding of the world, would you say you're in his shackles? Me, I think it's more like becoming independent of a parent than breaking free from a slaver. If you're dependent on God in your understanding of the world, then (IMHO) at most you're shackled by your dependence - not by God. Replace that dependence with a dependence on science, rejecting everything that science has no explanation for, and you're going to miss a LOT in human interaction, in enjoyable fiction, etc. Consider our programs to "fight addiction" - and how many of them simply change what the person is addicted to. (I've known a few people who were addicted to 12-step programs... including one who would lie about being addicted to various things so they could participate in more 12-step programs.) |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 20, 2021 9:01:46 GMT
That, however, would make Aata's statement about the Court's goals ( that they want the whole human race to have this power) a lie. That's the thing--he didn't say that. "What we create will benefit all of man." Not that it would give etheric powers to all of man, or even that all of man would be able to use it in some form. If the Court gains power, wields that power itself, but uses it to cure disease or destroy beings like Hetty, they could still claim that their actions benefit the whole human race. (I am, of course, skeptical of this claim.) Oh, yes, like trickle-down economics. We didn't say we wanted everyone to be relieved of their tax burdens, only the rich and privileged, and when they will inevitably lose a few coins from their overfilled pockets everyone will profit! |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 20, 2021 17:30:11 GMT
If you're dependent on God in your understanding of the world, would you say you're in his shackles? Me, I think it's more like becoming independent of a parent than breaking free from a slaver. If you're dependent on God in your understanding of the world, then (IMHO) at most you're shackled by your dependence - not by God. Replace that dependence with a dependence on science, rejecting everything that science has no explanation for, and you're going to miss a LOT in human interaction, in enjoyable fiction, etc. Consider our programs to "fight addiction" - and how many of them simply change what the person is addicted to. (I've known a few people who were addicted to 12-step programs... including one who would lie about being addicted to various things so they could participate in more 12-step programs.) On that note, I wonder if it is even possible to replace the current etheric realm with something better even if everything the Court wants happens. I would think that since most people will not be able to replicate (or even follow) the Court's experiments and tinkering what would emerge would be a new unseen structure based on scienceism rather than a materialistic-empiricist paradigm. Of course, the Court might then be a new universal church with its high priest caste now in charge of that scienceism in more than one layer of reality... |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 20, 2021 17:30:18 GMT
Coyote cuts off Aata before he can finish the "mission statement" - thus keeping the mystery about the Court's goals continuing. Almost as if Coyote had stopped Aata at just the right moment to make sure Annie only heard the slightly dodgy and easy-to-misunderstand part in order to ensure she would think in a particular way. Wouldn't be the first time, even if there was no direct memory manipulation this time around. Hmm, I don't know. The "bitterness" comment has me thinking the failure was something that happened a while ago, which has left Aata bitter towards the ether. Just to emphasise, it's only Coyote's subjective viewpoint that Aata is bitter, Aata doesn't see himself as bitter. Sure, there is likely something in his past for Coyote to consider it a source of bitterness, but it's probably heavily up for interpretation. I think Aata wants a deterministic universe, not realizing two things: 1) if he got it, its deterministic nature would confine him just as much as everyone else 2) he won't get it because the material universe is not deterministic. Quantum mechanics, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle... all solid science... The Court wants a 'seen' universe, not a deterministic one. Non-deterministic processes in the material world can often be simulated stochastically, producing a probability distribution and allowing predictions/forecasting, thereby explaining them, turning them into something 'seen'. The Court's issue is that there are certain parts of the unseen world that cannot be turned 'seen' no matter how much they have tried using regular methods, because they are 'only explained by not having an explanation' - basically, they are outside the regular axiom/logic system that science uses. Jones just is, according to regular logic, her existence is a paradox. The loop of the Tic-Toc is also a paradox, and we know there's something going on with the first Kat that started the loop. Doesn't mean that the Court is not trying to make the unseen world follow regular logic (and first Kat probably helped, perhaps causing her universe to collapse). Replace that dependence with a dependence on science, rejecting everything that science has no explanation for, and you're going to miss a LOT in human interaction, in enjoyable fiction, etc. There are a lot of behavioural scientists that would beg to differ!  Human interactions do follow basic rules, often with some randomness on top of them. Our usual logic system still applies, cause leads to effect, etc. Not so in the ether, where the effect can easily lead to the cause. Obviously, I don't know anything about that particular example, but I thought that medical professionals were pretty united in that e.g. opioid replacement therapy is one of the best ways to get people off e.g. heroin? And given how bad some of those drugs are, replacing them with less harmful addictions can be a very good thing, greatly increasing the healthspan. |
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Post by Draxiss on Jul 20, 2021 19:03:47 GMT
Beat me to that analysis! Really makes me wonder what the organizational structure of the Court actually is. It doesn't seem particularly democratic. I haven't seen a single page in which anyone so much as mention the word 'Vote,' to the best of my knowledge. I suspect Tom is going for more of an 'inscrutable, bureaucratic system whose rules push those in it towards a particular ideology and particular set of actions without any one person necessarily being The Bad Guy.' I do suspect you'd find that power tends to be funneled up towards some group of elites with unchecked power, however. I do find it frustrating that it's such a common mode of thought for characters within the comic to view magic as somehow incompatible with the scientific method. To be fair, I think the frustration I feel is part of the point, but it does suck that it seems like the only people who seem be trying to actively do science at the ether are a the weirdos trying to conquer it. I guess on a more meta level, I feel weird when the magic is code for 'religion' or 'spirituality,' which exist in entirely different spheres from science in the real world. Now that I think about it, I suspect the Court isn't as good at science as they want to appear to be. I'll bet there's a lot of cases in which ideology is put before results, inconvenient data gets buried, and/or researchers get repeatedly replaced until they come out with the results the Court wants. Not sure if the comic would ever have the time or care to cover something like that, but it'd be a interesting perspective. For a famous example in the real world, the Nazis did a whole bunch of garbage science. There's certainly a debate to be had over the ethics of using Nazi science for the betterment of humanity, but people sometimes overlook just how much of Nazi science was useless. Researchers would make stuff up to fit their warped worldview and make sure their superiors didn't hurt them. (Also before someone jumps down my throat, no I'm not saying that the Court are equivalent to Nazis. The internet has broken me and I immediately feel like I have to qualify everything I say.) |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 20, 2021 20:18:28 GMT
Beat me to that analysis! Really makes me wonder what the organizational structure of the Court actually is. It doesn't seem particularly democratic. I haven't seen a single page in which anyone so much as mention the word 'Vote,' to the best of my knowledge. I suspect Tom is going for more of an 'inscrutable, bureaucratic system whose rules push those in it towards a particular ideology and particular set of actions without any one person necessarily being The Bad Guy.' I do suspect you'd find that power tends to be funneled up towards some group of elites with unchecked power, however. I've always thought of it as a kind of anarchist society (in the philosophical sense, so 'rule by none'), with mutual interactions between individuals, banding together with vaguely defined factions with just the one additional overarching principle that the usual world wouldn't have, i.e. obsessive study of the ether. But in the practical sense, that's basically what you are saying. Kat, Juliette and Anja all do science at the ether and they aren't weirdos trying to conquer it. Also, the unseen world is, by definition, incompatible with scientific method, at least in this universe. You don't have to go to the Nazis for that, philosophers of science have been pretty clear in the second half of the 20th century that that is no such thing as The Scientific Method(TM) and that the practice of science is well, a bit of an artform. |
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Post by todd on Jul 20, 2021 23:39:14 GMT
Coyote cuts off Aata before he can finish the "mission statement" - thus keeping the mystery about the Court's goals continuing. Almost as if Coyote had stopped Aata at just the right moment to make sure Annie only heard the slightly dodgy and easy-to-misunderstand part in order to ensure she would think in a particular way. Wouldn't be the first time, even if there was no direct memory manipulation this time around. I was thinking more from a "narrative approach" than an "in-story approach", actually (though it probably does fit Coyote's goals) - Tom providing us with just enough new information about the Court's goals to excite us and stimulate discussion (which clearly succeeded, judging from this thread) while still preserving a sense of mystery and suspense through cutting off Aata at the dramatically right moment. |
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Post by hp on Jul 20, 2021 23:50:11 GMT
Really makes me wonder what the organizational structure of the Court actually is. It doesn't seem particularly democratic. I haven't seen a single page in which anyone so much as mention the word 'Vote,' to the best of my knowledge. I suspect Tom is going for more of an 'inscrutable, bureaucratic system whose rules push those in it towards a particular ideology and particular set of actions without any one person necessarily being The Bad Guy.' I do suspect you'd find that power tends to be funneled up towards some group of elites with unchecked power, however. We can't know without more info about the rest of the world. Is the Court a shady private institution covertly operating in a world mostly like our own? Is the Court a regular institution in a weird world, a la Hogwarts/ Rowling's Britain? Is it public in that setting? The way it's narratively without context gives the story an abstract vibe, like the Court is some technocratic elitist archetype. It works like transcendental allegories such as Kafka's works like "On the Penal Colony" and Bioy Casares' "The Invention of Morel"
Agreed. But it doesn't even has to be something as radical as nazis... Even "regular" science is full of biases and blind spots. The scientific method has to be applied by people with all their baggage, after all, and all people think within an ideological framework. "Fish don't know they're in water". Like a lot of historically accepted "biological" explanations for gender-coded behaviour are increasingly debunked, and to this day there are "social darwinists" who try to legitimize bigotry as science and attribute social developments to genes. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 21, 2021 0:56:58 GMT
As in, man behind the curtain? Of course now that we know there is one “enlightened being” running one of the Court's cabals… is he the only one? *Ploink* just casually fingerflicking that dude away. I am worried though, about Coyote already saying Loup will attack. If a trickster seemingly gets serious, things are about to go down. Hence removal of the clowns. |
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 21, 2021 6:38:25 GMT
Almost as if Coyote had stopped Aata at just the right moment to make sure Annie only heard the slightly dodgy and easy-to-misunderstand part in order to ensure she would think in a particular way. Wouldn't be the first time, even if there was no direct memory manipulation this time around. I was thinking more from a "narrative approach" than an "in-story approach", actually (though it probably does fit Coyote's goals) - Tom providing us with just enough new information about the Court's goals to excite us and stimulate discussion (which clearly succeeded, judging from this thread) while still preserving a sense of mystery and suspense through cutting off Aata at the dramatically right moment. Why not both? Coyote occasionally almost-but-not-quite breaks the fourth wall. |
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mzpx
Junior Member
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Post by mzpx on Jul 21, 2021 6:45:08 GMT
The Court needs to steal Coyote's power to make its plans work. That's what Coyote says, but it could be interpreted in many ways, e.g. they only need it temporarily to study it and then they'll return it. Ah, I'm annoyed with myself for not noticing this earlier, here's an excellent example of Coyote calling something 'stolen' that most people would not consider stolen. Jones' name was very specifically freely given, as it always is. |
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Here is a fifth (that I've kinda alluded to previously): they are seeking to completely separate the human spheres and the etheric spheres, because it's 
Human interactions do follow basic rules, often with some randomness on top of them. Our usual logic system still applies, cause leads to effect, etc. Not so in the ether, where the effect can easily lead to the cause.
