V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on Jul 14, 2021 7:01:02 GMT
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Post by jda on Jul 14, 2021 7:06:19 GMT
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Post by philman on Jul 14, 2021 7:10:29 GMT
Aata has been manipulating for longer than we realised. Hmm. I would dearly love to know more about him.
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Post by Fishy on Jul 14, 2021 7:14:59 GMT
I wonder if there’s a single human in this world, past or present, who ever loved Coyote, Ysengrin, and Reynardine like Annie does. It’s easy to think of Annie as following in Surma’s footsteps, and Coyote speaks fondly of Surma… but what she did to Renard would be unthinkable for Annie. And who doesn’t Coyote speak fondly of?
It seems even those who are the closest to the forest can’t think of them as friends like Annie does.
I’m of the mind that it’s true, Coyote is just as dangerous as the Court and neither is to be trusted. But I love him the same way I love Eglamore. Scary, powerful, but so familiar. Is it wrong to make a friend out of someone like that, just for now? Just for as long as we can?
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Post by madjack on Jul 14, 2021 7:17:33 GMT
So just how does Coyote know that Aata was a part of the scheming around Renard? Did he pluck that information out of someone's head on a visit to the Court one time or does he have a source? Or has Aata confronted Coyote in the past?
Something about raising more questions than answers....
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 14, 2021 7:20:36 GMT
Cookies for me for predicting that he means Reynardine!  Otherwise, dunno, as far as we have been told and seen, the Court doesn't really like using the ether if they can avoid it and they have only acted to get Coyote's powers whenever it was transferred to another being not limited by his 'no interference' policy, i.e. when there was a perceived threat. So unless we find out that Aata's faction has a drastically different attitude (which is certainly possible, clearly his faction stands apart from the rest of the Court), this feels like another classic Coyote twist of the truth to me. Or, I guess, both can be true. The main factions of the Court only acted due to the perceived threat, and Aata is basically the Diego of the present, 'it's the only way' and all, for his own nefarious purposes. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 14, 2021 8:43:57 GMT
Watch Coyote tell the truth while conveniently leaving out the part he himself played. Too bad Renard is too ashamed to ever tell Annie anything about this story so far.
Or, I guess, both can be true. The main factions of the Court only acted due to the perceived threat, and Aata is basically the Diego of the present, 'it's the only way' and all, for his own nefarious purposes. My thoughts as well. Aata is, if not their leader, at least a high ranking Shadow Man, i.e. an important name among the Court's secret service. Maybe even part of whatever shadowy cabal leads the Court. It's not hard to imagine they believed him when he said Renard was a threat and had to be neutralized with a clever scheme. |
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Post by Druplesnubb on Jul 14, 2021 8:54:12 GMT
Coyote blaming the Court for Daniel's death seems... dishonest. |
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Post by Igniz on Jul 14, 2021 9:46:10 GMT
Coyote blaming the Court for Daniel's death seems... dishonest. Well, previously, we weren't aware of Aata's involvement in the affair, and we're still in the dark about the extent of his part in that attemp. In other words, we don't have the entire picture yet. |
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Post by justhalf on Jul 14, 2021 10:22:30 GMT
Finally, more exposition from Coyote! Looking forward to see what Coyote knows about the Court up to this point.
(btw, shouldn't panel 3 reads "this **led** to the death of that man"?)
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Post by bicarbonat on Jul 14, 2021 10:46:28 GMT
Coyote blaming the Court for Daniel's death seems... dishonest. Well, previously, we weren't aware of Aata's involvement in the affair, and we're still in the dark about the extent of his part in that attemp. In other words, we don't have the entire picture yet. Seems like the only person who didn't have an ounce of machination is the only person who ended up dead because of it. Everybody else knew something, and a few individuals knew everything. Coyote and Aata (and likely other Court figures) knew the possessed person would die; Renard wasn't 100% sure and, in desperation, didn't care. I doubt that Surma knew the means by which the Court's trap would spring - it reeks of the same secrecy as the arrow. She might've thought her job was to eventually lure him where he could be etherically subdued. I also wonder how the Court decided on Danny. We saw the motivator in the last debacle - Jeanne had emotional ties to the Forest, was about to defect, and made the mistake of slighting the trigger-man. Danny was clearly assigned to a route that intersected with Renard's. Anyway - [dons "Vice-President, Aata Hate Club" tee] |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 14, 2021 10:48:17 GMT
It sounds like Coyote prepares Annie for untimely (and messy) demise of good ol' Aata, imminent once time-stop is released.
So that she won't be too shocked by this.
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Post by todd on Jul 14, 2021 12:39:34 GMT
Coyote blaming the Court for Daniel's death seems... dishonest. If the Court hadn't sent Surma to manipulate Renard into falling in love with her, he wouldn't have accepted Coyote's offer and thereby killed Daniel. So I'd say the Court bears some of the responsibility for it. |
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Post by todd on Jul 14, 2021 12:41:41 GMT
(btw, shouldn't panel 3 reads "this **led** to the death of that man"?) I'd noticed that as well. It might be just another of those typos that gets fixed. On the other hand, I've seen "lead" being used for "led" elsewhere; it might be turning into something close to an "accepted norm" that way. (A bit like "alright" for "all right", though I prefer "all right".) |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 14, 2021 13:40:54 GMT
(btw, shouldn't panel 3 reads "this **led** to the death of that man"?) I'd noticed that as well. It might be just another of those typos that gets fixed. On the other hand, I've seen "lead" being used for "led" elsewhere; it might be turning into something close to an "accepted norm" that way. (A bit like "alright" for "all right", though I prefer "all right".) |
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Post by lurkerbot on Jul 14, 2021 13:46:43 GMT
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Post by aline on Jul 14, 2021 13:48:50 GMT
Coyote blaming the Court for Daniel's death seems... dishonest. I mean he's a trickster god. Of course he's dishonest. But he also tells the truth. Everybody in this sad little plot was trying to trick somebody else and it seems Surma was manipulated as well. She was told to lure Renard because he was a threat to the Court when in reality they wanted to trap him for much less savory reasons. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Jul 14, 2021 13:51:08 GMT
(btw, shouldn't panel 3 reads "this **led** to the death of that man"?) I'd noticed that as well. It might be just another of those typos that gets fixed. On the other hand, I've seen "lead" being used for "led" elsewhere; it might be turning into something close to an "accepted norm" that way. (A bit like "alright" for "all right", though I prefer "all right".) Yes, "lead" should be "led" in that sentence. And I'm firmly in the "all right" versus "alright" camp; "alright" still grates on me despite its usage becoming as prevalent as it has. |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 14, 2021 14:13:59 GMT
The panel borders remain gray, so time remains frozen. And as I thought, Coyote means that the Court tried to take some of his power by manipulating Renard into being captured. Annie feels bad about this because her mother was a part of that plan, and it led to the death of Schiff. And evidently Aata was one of the masterminds behind it.
Also, Coyote says they now intend to take all of his power. He's frozen time, so we don't know how successful this attempt is being, but why would this work? It doesn't seem as if it would have worked if they'd just thrown a device at Loup – perhaps because Loup would have just dodged, or knocked it out of the air with a rock, or turned it into a bird (I'm figuring that using ethereal powers directly on it might have given the Court some energy, but not the whole enchilada). I'm also guessing they wouldn't have tried this on Coyote either – they may not have perfected the technology yet by the time Loup showed up, but if they'd had it earlier and tried it, Coyote is much more canny than Loup and probably wouldn't have even allowed them to get close.
So what I'm guessing is that Loup was well and truly distracted for a moment, what with Coyote popping out of his forehead like that, so Aata figured it was a good time to make the attempt, since Loup wouldn't be able to defend himself.
Also, Coyote says they mean to take all of his power. He's not saying whether it could actually have worked. It seems to me that they could have taken the power of the Coyote fragment that was in the lake water, the fragment that emerged from Loup's head, but is that all of Coyote's power? I mean, isn't most of it inside Loup? And here I wander into Wild Speculation territory. What if Loup isn't the god he thinks he is? What if Coyote has been alive and well inside him all this time and has just been feeding him power and information when he needed it? What if this really is Coyote, hopping out to say hi (maybe the lake water contained the memory that he was in there), and perhaps the time we saw him with the goose bone wasn't the same thing? Hmm. There are Coyote and Ysengrin totems in the forest, which would suggest that their souls are in them, but is that definitely true? Maybe they're just empty totems for later use? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to me as if this plan would get all of Coyote's power. That doesn't mean that wasn't Aata's intent, though.
Then there's the question of whether the Court's plan will work. It seems Coyote's stopped it, but maybe that's only because he's stopped time. Maybe as soon as he restarts time, it'll continue. And maybe that's Coyote's plan. Or maybe not, and he'll restart time and be Coyote, and the Shadow Men will be very nervous.
[Edit: Nobody's replied yet, and I noticed another thing.] Coyote's tail extends off the last frame, and its outline gets brighter as it approaches the edge. I think this is about as strong a telegraph as Tom can give us that Coyote's still attached to the beam. He either can't escape from it, or he's decided not to escape from it for his own reasons. He's also looking down at Aata with a not-too-pleased expression, suggesting that he perhaps intends to do something nasty.
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Post by King Mir on Jul 14, 2021 15:19:25 GMT
A man who wants the power of a god. This is a tale as old as time. Technically we already knew this here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=497. But now we have a face to the court. |
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Post by machiavelli33 on Jul 14, 2021 15:39:00 GMT
Aata is older than one would suspect.
Mirth must really be the elixir of youth. His Buddha-like figure (roundness, bald head, long earlobes, smiling countenance) plays into this as well - which... well, raises yet more questions, doesn't it.
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Post by warrl on Jul 14, 2021 16:41:36 GMT
(A bit like "alright" for "all right", though I prefer "all right".) Do you also often confuse "acceptable or tolerable" with "absolutely perfect"? |
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Post by najmniejszy on Jul 14, 2021 16:48:19 GMT
I am starting to love Aata. Not as a person, but as a character. I have a real fondness for machiavellanschemers who are also polite and have a bigger purpose driving them
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Post by OrzBrain on Jul 14, 2021 18:09:30 GMT
It seems Coyote's stopped it, but maybe that's only because he's stopped time. Maybe as soon as he restarts time, it'll continue. And maybe that's Coyote's plan. Or maybe not, and he'll restart time and be Coyote, and the Shadow Men will be very nervous. I suspect that Coyote is about to give Annie a decisive role in stopping or not stopping the Court's plan. After all, from a Doylist perspective it makes sense for her to wind up with the agency since she is the main character. I'll bet Coyote is about to point out a flaw in the Court's Etheric control mechanisms which he either can't or won't utilize, but which Annie can use to put an end to the Court's attempt, or release Coyote after the attempt apparently succeeds. |
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Post by hp on Jul 14, 2021 18:47:20 GMT
I can't figure how that "first attempt" works. Did Rey accept (or ask for) Coyote's possession powers because of his love for Surma? Or did Surma try to trick Rey because he already have Coyote's powers? Making Rey take Coyote's powers was part of Surma's trick? Or the Court decided to trick him after he had already accepted the powers?
The order that makes the most sense to me is, Rey loved Surma, who didn't love back and monitored him for the Court. Rey asked for possession powers for Coyote so he could be a human and be loved by Surma; and *then* Surma, on Court orders, pretended to love him back to set a trap him?
(There's also the possibility that he told Surma beforehand about being offered power from Coyote to become human, and THEN on Court orders, she pretended to love him back and led him to accept?)
As for Aata, I thought he was top dog at theCourt, like aheadmaster or something? You guys say there are people above him?
Maybe it's time for another GK re-read from the start...
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 14, 2021 20:22:06 GMT
I can't figure how that "first attempt" works. Did Rey accept (or ask for) Coyote's possession powers because of his love for Surma? Or did Surma try to trick Rey because he already have Coyote's powers? Making Rey take Coyote's powers was part of Surma's trick? Or the Court decided to trick him after he had already accepted the powers? The order that makes the most sense to me is, Rey loved Surma, who didn't love back and monitored him for the Court. Rey asked for possession powers for Coyote so he could be a human and be loved by Surma; and *then* Surma, on Court orders, pretended to love him back to set a trap him? (There's also the possibility that he told Surma beforehand about being offered power from Coyote to become human, and THEN on Court orders, she pretended to love him back and led him to accept?) As for Aata, I thought he was top dog at theCourt, like aheadmaster or something? You guys say there are people above him? Maybe it's time for another GK re-read from the start... It seems to have gone like this: Coyote wanted to give Renard his powers, but Renard refusedThe Court learned of this and told Surma to flirt with RenardIt worked, and Renard asked Coyote for the power to take bodiesCoyote knew it had been a trickRenard knew that possessing anything was fatal to the targetCoyote convinced Renard to possess SchiffAs for Aata, I'm not sure. We've never seen anyone give Aata orders. Nor have we seen anyone give Llanwellyn orders, although Llanwellyn has said " we took your findings into consideration," implying that he's not an autocrat but a member of a committee, at least when it comes to diplomatic affairs. We've also been told that the Shadow Men are part of the Court that's separate from the school. The simplest conclusion is that the Shadow Men are one branch of the Court, while the school is another, and Aata is highly placed in the Shadow Men if not in charge of it, while Llanwellyn is the school's headmaster, but appointing a Court Medium is a decision for a higher body. Perhaps there is a council that has Aata and Llanwellyn on it, among others we don't know. (Or we may know them, but we don't know they're that high up – Tony, for example, though I doubt it.) James and the Donlans can't be on that council, because they were just as surprised at the Court medium decision as everyone else. We've seen a mention of " the Lords of the Court," but that was in an allegorical story from Coyote's point of view. Still, there have been vaguely-drawn or faceless people in the background at meetings with Coyote, so there are probably just people making Court decisions whom Tom isn't interested in telling us about, because the story's not really about them. |
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 14, 2021 20:37:22 GMT
Seems like the only person who didn't have an ounce of machination is the only person who ended up dead because of it. Everybody else knew something, and a few individuals knew everything. Coyote and Aata (and likely other Court figures) knew the possessed person would die; Renard wasn't 100% sure and, in desperation, didn't care. I doubt that Surma knew the means by which the Court's trap would spring - it reeks of the same secrecy as the arrow. She might've thought her job was to eventually lure him where he could be etherically subdued. I also wonder how the Court decided on Danny. We saw the motivator in the last debacle - Jeanne had emotional ties to the Forest, was about to defect, and made the mistake of slighting the trigger-man. Danny was clearly assigned to a route that intersected with Renard's. I can't figure how that "first attempt" works. Did Rey accept (or ask for) Coyote's possession powers because of his love for Surma? Or did Surma try to trick Rey because he already have Coyote's powers? Making Rey take Coyote's powers was part of Surma's trick? Or the Court decided to trick him after he had already accepted the powers? The order that makes the most sense to me is, Rey loved Surma, who didn't love back and monitored him for the Court. Rey asked for possession powers for Coyote so he could be a human and be loved by Surma; and *then* Surma, on Court orders, pretended to love him back to set a trap him? Coyote has wanted to give his powers to Rey since they first met. Surma found out about this when she became the medium. The Court got scared about a being having (potentially all of) Coyote's powers without his non-interference policy (even the transfer itself has.. an impact), so they asked Surma to trick him and lure him into the Court. Rey then asked for Coyote's possession powers and killed Daniel in a way that was unexpected by the Court (at least by Anja and Surma). It remains unclear if e.g. Aata knew that Rey never would have accepted Coyote's powers had it not been for Surma's trick. (On the other hand, they've long suspected that Coyote was controlling Ysengrin, so even if they did, they might not have wanted to risk it.) This is just my opinion, but I don't think there is just one leader of the Court, or even a secretive cabal of sorts. There seems to be some hierarchy, but a lot more bureaucracy, so everything is probably on a need-to-know basis with no single person/committee having full clearance. Just an overriding principle that is shared by most (at least the inner) members of the Court: advance understanding of the ether. Let's keep in mind that it's not just Anthony that knows about the Omega device, Donald knows too. |
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 14, 2021 20:40:26 GMT
I keep being late to the party hahahahaha. That overlaps with my timeline a lot. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Jul 14, 2021 23:30:12 GMT
It's always bothered me that Anja was at least not opposed to, if not actually part of, the plot to deceive Renard, as evidenced by her use of "we" in Panel 5. I've perhaps irrationally thought better of her than that, but from her perspective it would not be unreasonable to do whatever necessary to keep her family and home safe from outside entities she knew little about. And she and Donald did change their opinion of Renard after they got to know him, as did James. |
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Post by hp on Jul 15, 2021 0:05:08 GMT
Wow, thank you both for the rundown. I didn't remember most of that, those links were really helpful.
Gemminie, I actually had forgotten about Llanwelyn and mixed up Aata with him... I thought Aata was also the one who hosted coyote's visits while sitting in a chair.
As I said, it's time for a full reread. it's been a couple years since the last one
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