mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 4, 2021 6:46:14 GMT
Beyond that - well, the Court is just doing what humans always do, they ask questions and they are trying to understand the world around them, which in this case also includes the ether. Granted, that exploration in itself seems to be the danger, but as far as we can tell, no one has ever actually taken the time to explain that to them. Yes, it still strikes me that nobody who knows that this kind of tampering with the ether is dangerous seems to be making an effort to point this out to the Court. Of course, there seem to be understandable reasons for the various individuals who most likely know. The Forest-folk would rather growl and threaten than reason with their opponents. Coyote presumably wants to exploit the Court's doings for his own benefit (like having the adventure of dying to add to his trickster exploits). Jones is probably bound by her self-imposed non-intervention rules. Zimmy only cares about what happens to herself and Gamma - and the Court wouldn't likely listen to her anyway. And I suspect that, even if someone did try alerting the Court about the negative consequences of meddling with the ether, they'd ignore that person, due to their obsession. Since when does the mad scientist listen to the person who says "I've been looking over your plans for this experiment, and there are a lot of danger signals that I think you ought to know about...." (In fact, we've seen this on a smaller scale with Kat - who gets so excited about being able to mold the cruise ship's flesh-form that she forgets that it wants her to help it in an attempt at committing adultery until Paz points that out, and who unnecessarily incorporates Diego's arrow into the procedure to return Reynardine's ownershp to Annie, just to see what would happen.) I do think that the Court bears more responsibility for this trouble than the Forest (though the forest-folk's own behavior leaves a lot to be desired). It was the Court's insistence on figuring out how the ether worked scientifically that started the conflict; before the Court started prying, they were living harmoniously with the Forest. Their actions endangered the Wood; from the forest-folk's point of view, they are only trying to protect themselves from their dangerous neighbors whose experiments could destroy them. Until the Court gains some humility and proportion, and comes to understand that its attempt to understand how the ether works was misguided, I fear there's little hope for peace between the two groups - genuine peace. And, no doubt, the Court's darker aspects, such as its constant surveillance, stem from its fear of the Forest; if it had kept good relations with Gilltie Wood, it would have probably never ventured down the "secrets and lies" path. Maybe it's the scientist in me that just feels like there's absolutely nothing wrong, in and of itself, in wanting to figure out how the ether works scientifically. It's the most human quality, wanting to understand the world around us, and if no one explains why just the act of researching something is harmful, then of course the Court should insist on continuing its experiments. Otherwise, it's just the Forest threatening the Court into suppressing their natural curiosity by force, and that's not really okay. It's heavily implied that the source of the original divide was a failed experiment, probably the Seed Bismuth growing out of control and slowly taking over the Forest (so many empty houses, Coyote using his powers to stabilise the Forest and creating the Annan waters, etc.). But it was just one failed experiment, there are a ton of those in real life! We learn from it and move on, not go full Luddite. Kat is quite a realistic as a scientist, getting excited about new research tools. Nothing wrong with that, then they appeal to her humanity(/emotions, whatever we want to call it) and she stops/modifies her plans, like not helping a ship that kidnapped a ship full of children or making sure to be extra careful with a potentially dangerous artifact. (Incidentally, once she confirmed it's not dangerous, why not use the arrow as part of her experiments?) To be clear, it's implied through their actions that the Court does have humanity/emotions to appeal to (they help the creatures of the Forest an awful lot). They are quite bureaucratic, so we don't see when things get decided, but for me, actions typically speak louder than words. |
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Post by aline on Jul 4, 2021 13:59:35 GMT
Thing is, we don't actually know why they did that. They murdered an innocent young woman and trapped her in a constant state of torture for centuries. There are no "why" in any universe that would make me think this is forgivable, or even understandable. My heart weeps for their poor little souls but if they were really that scared of being eaten in their sleep, they might have considered leaving. It's not that they had no choice, it's that torturing Jeanne was the most convenient option so everyone nodded that it was very sad indeed and proceeded to plan how to use her. Also let's note that the Court was more or less eating out the Forest with their "seed bismuth" before Coyote showed up. We were told the Court started as a bunch of refugees who were welcomed by the Forest folks. Then they grew their city in the heart of the Forest, creating a huge complex of buildings, most of which they don't need and just stand there empty. Who cares that other people and creatures were also living there, right... Coyote's divide quite possibly protected Gillitie Woods from complete destruction. We can hardly look at these people as victims of circumstances. They had their own powers and they made a lot of cruel choices. Disagree. Ysengrin had no reason to be that horrified by a device that was merely about seeing or understanding the ether. It also doesn't add up with his statement that the Court planned to do something to Annie specifically. All that was knowledge preexisting Loups' birth and the subsequent attacks, so the Court was planning it before the attacks. I do think it's the same device that Loup mentioned, but the fact that it's just about understanding or studying the ether is simply your interpretation that's not at all what Loup said. If the Court kills or captures Loup without further collateral damage, I'll tip my hat to them and congratulate them on a job well done. But I don't believe for one second they'll stop there. |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 4, 2021 15:39:17 GMT
Uh-oh, looks like this view is controversial.. Sorry, wasn't trying to start some massive argument or anything. Thing is, we don't actually know why they did that. They murdered an innocent young woman and trapped her in a constant state of torture for centuries. There are no "why" in any universe that would make me think this is forgivable, or even understandable. I guess that's where we disagree (nothing wrong with that! that's what makes the world turn  ) - for me, these were actions during a war where one side was worried about being wiped out without a trace at any moment. So they did something unarguably terrible to save the lives of (at least) hundreds (over the history of the Court, likely thousands - the moment Jeanne was freed, Coyote initiated his plan that once again put the Court at existential threat). Even without the threat of being wiped out, Ysengrin would have kept attacking and killing people for centuries. For me, that makes it understandable although certainly shameful. As you are saying, they were refugees escaping persecution, leaving was never really an option. And it was their home too, so I don't really like the argument of how they should have just gone back to where they came from, sorry. A lot will depend on the exact history of the seed bismuth - was it a failed experiment that the Court had no way of stopping, or was it all intentional? It will actually be interesting to see what happens when Loup is taken out of the equation, as he's still, just about, keeping things together. Will the seed bismuth's exponential growth kick back into action? This implies yes.. As in, the Court believes it just peers into the ether, but it will actually break apart reality/ether. Intentionality is quite important here, and that has often been left fairly open. (E.g. something affecting Annie specifically - if the ether breaks, the side of her that Ysengrin cares about will be 'taken away'.) I guess we'll have to wait and see, there's a lot still up for interpretation. Aata's smile on this page is certainly creeping me out. I know he always smiles, but still, this doesn't seem to be a moment he should be taking pleasure in. Of course, not disagreeing there. I just want to emphasise that a) the Court has also done a lot of good things, and b) the Forest has also done a lot of bad things (and good things too). Neither side is better than the other - which is where I think Tom expects us to sit, at least for now. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 4, 2021 18:43:17 GMT
Incidentally, once she confirmed it's not dangerous, why not use the arrow as part of her experiments? I can't really remember Kat ever confirming that the arrow was in fact not dangerous. for me, these were actions during a war where one side was worried about being wiped out without a trace at any moment. So they did something unarguably terrible to save the lives of (at least) hundreds (over the history of the Court, likely thousands - the moment Jeanne was freed, Coyote initiated his plan that once again put the Court at existential threat). Even without the threat of being wiped out, Ysengrin would have kept attacking and killing people for centuries. For me, that makes it understandable although certainly shameful. I don't see any evidence that Court and Forest were at war when Jeanne and her boyfriend were killed. Coyote had created the ravine explicitly to stop both sides from fighting. First of all, it is only one theory that the Founders were escaping a war. Others say they simply wanted to be apart from the rest of humanity. Second, no one said anything about them having to go back exactly were they came from. Third, being refugees does not excuse anything the Founders did. Fourth, with all their technological marvels, do you really think they had no other options? A group of people who had the ability to grow cities and create sentient robots should not have been able to pack their stuff and look for a place where they wouldn't disturb anyone? Or to fortify the Annan waters in a way that didn't involve killing two people and entrapping their souls (how about building a force of robotic guards for example)? The Founders, and Diego in particular were not unable to consider other options. They were just unwilling. |
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mzpx
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Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 4, 2021 20:39:10 GMT
Incidentally, once she confirmed it's not dangerous, why not use the arrow as part of her experiments? I can't really remember Kat ever confirming that the arrow was in fact not dangerous. for me, these were actions during a war where one side was worried about being wiped out without a trace at any moment. So they did something unarguably terrible to save the lives of (at least) hundreds (over the history of the Court, likely thousands - the moment Jeanne was freed, Coyote initiated his plan that once again put the Court at existential threat). Even without the threat of being wiped out, Ysengrin would have kept attacking and killing people for centuries. For me, that makes it understandable although certainly shameful. I don't see any evidence that Court and Forest were at war when Jeanne and her boyfriend were killed. Coyote had created the ravine explicitly to stop both sides from fighting. First of all, it is only one theory that the Founders were escaping a war. Others say they simply wanted to be apart from the rest of humanity. Second, no one said anything about them having to go back exactly were they came from. Third, being refugees does not excuse anything the Founders did. Fourth, with all their technological marvels, do you really think they had no other options? A group of people who had the ability to grow cities and create sentient robots should not have been able to pack their stuff and look for a place where they wouldn't disturb anyone? Or to fortify the Annan waters in a way that didn't involve killing two people and entrapping their souls (how about building a force of robotic guards for example)? The Founders, and Diego in particular were not unable to consider other options. They were just unwilling. Kat confirms that the arrow is not dangerous here. She makes the point that a tool is only as dangerous as the user even earlier, here. The exact circumstances are unclear, and context matters, so it would be good to get confirmation. But it seems like it happened shortly after the arrival of the canine gods, as the ravine was there already, but there were still plenty of green spaces in the Court and relationships persisted from before. So the trigger may have been Ysengrin and Coyote themselves, rather than the regular Forest folk: an angry wolf god intent on 'destroy[ing all humans] given the chance' and an even more powerful trickster god who is completely untrustworthy (many examples of that, one I've mentioned before is that he is the direct reason why Loup is now threatening the lives of all humans in the Court, but it's not Coyote, so technically he didn't lie). Again, we don't know the exact circumstances that the founders of the Court were in and context matters, but even if they had somewhere to go (and there's no guarantee of that, e.g. the ability to grow cities doesn't really help with bigotry), it was there that they made their home, so expecting them to leave doesn't sit well with me. Why should they leave? Because a) the neighbours don't like them being true to themselves (and do research), or b) they are being threatened with obliteration by literal gods? (I'm trying not to bring real-life parallels into this, but they exist - maybe this is too personal for me, I might take a step back.) Oh yeah, Diego was terrible (and that's an understatement). Judging by his level of guilt and how much he was trying to deflect it onto others, he probably did know that there were alternatives just didn't tell others. |
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Post by exterminatecake on Jul 4, 2021 21:22:02 GMT
i have nothing productive to add to the big-brain conversations currently going on about this page; i only want to say that this page has struck me with abject fear. i cannot wait to see where this is going.
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Post by todd on Jul 4, 2021 23:02:40 GMT
My own theory about the Omega Device (based on the hints we've had in the story so far) is that it is meant only to understand from a scientific point of view how various etheric phenomena work - but that what the Court doesn't realize (only those privy to Coyote's secret, such as Coyote himself, Annie, and Ysengrin - the fact that it's a secret indicates that very few people know it) is that these etheric phenomena and beings function only because they were dreamed up by humans long ago, when science was still in its infancy and humans didn't realize yet that the things they were imagining were scientifically impossible. and, consequently, that the Omega Device's conclusion would be that these things can't possibly work - and therefore, they don't, coming to this conclusion with enough force to counter the force of human belief. Hence the Omega Device threatening the etheric world is inevitable.
I rather like the notion that the spread of the Court was unintentional - a case of the Court being unable to control the Seed Bismuth - because it would explain why the Court is so large, yet so empty, which certainly seems impractical. (Large to the extent that you have to undergo a complex journey with several different forms of transportation just to get a haircut - cf. Chapter Fifteen.) (As I mentioned before, I can't help suspecting that if that was the case, rather than deliberate, it wouldn't have helped relations with the Forest; the forest-folk would have seen the Court as dangerously incompetent.) I certainly have the impression that the Court's been using things it doesn't fully understand, with often disastrous results.
My own theory on why the Court didn't simply move to a place with more reasonable neighbors (besides the possibility of dangers in the outside world they might have been fleeing from and a reluctance to abandon a new home): it's possible that the Court's experiments with the ether (which started the trouble with the Forest, and so were clearly underway by the time that they were working out how to defend the Annan Waters) could only be carried out in the vicinity of Gillitie Wood and the Seed Bismuth, and that leaving would mean they'd never get to understand what made the ether work.
The conflict strikes me as a case of both groups committing atrocities in what they see as self-defense (the Court murdered Jeanne and her lover because they saw it as the only way to keep themselves safe from the Forest; Loup and his army attack the Court because they see it as the only way to stop the Court from completing the Omega Device and destroying them all), and never even considering seriously talking out this problem. (Thanks partly to the flaws of both sides; the forest-folk would rather fight, or at least threaten to fight, than talk, and the Court considers it beneath its dignity to negotiate with talking animals. It doesn't help that Coyote's been "running the show" enough to encourage the chaos to continue for his own ends.) As I mentioned before, nobody has even tried informing the Court about the side effects of the Omega Device - and it may be too late by now, since the Court's so close to completion that it would refuse to call off the project at this point (and the realization that it could wipe out all the etheric creatures in Gillitie Wood - and maybe even everywhere on the planet - might seem like an incentive rather than a deterrent, after Loup's attack). I fear that even the best mediums in the world would have an extremely difficult time resolving this conflict. (Though we've gotten hints that Annie and Kat will somehow steer the Court in a better direction - presumably one that won't endanger the ether and further antagonize the forest-folk. Even then, I imagine that there'd also be the problem that the more aggressive forest-folk might still hold that the Court has to be punished for its past wrongs, and that aborting the Omega Device project won't be enough.)
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Post by lurkerbot on Jul 4, 2021 23:42:20 GMT
I can't really remember Kat ever confirming that the arrow was in fact not dangerous. Kat confirms that the arrow is not dangerous here. Katerina certainly denies that the arrow is dangerous, but I'm reluctant to classify her assertation as objective confirmation that it's not. Despite her confident assessment, I'm skeptical that she fully understands all of the arrow's abilities, especially possible etheric qualities that she doesn't fully comprehend. After all, let's not forget that her insistence on including the arrow when transferring Renard's ownership back to Antimony led directly to this unintended consequence. Yes, it all seemed to work out OK in the end, but my point is that Katerina certainly didn't foresee that sequence of events. What else might she have missed about the arrow? |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 5, 2021 5:55:49 GMT
It doesn't help that Coyote's been "running the show" enough to encourage the chaos to continue for his own ends. I think that's the key here. Coyote had the knowledge and power to shut down the Seed Bismuth entirely (assuming it was a failed experiment), knock some heads together and force the two sides to the negotiating table to come to an agreement they could both live with. Instead, he created a stop-gap measure with the etheric Forest structure (did he get bored before fixing it properly? or did he already anticipate Loup?) and then just amplified the resentment between the two sides. He may have been on the Forest side of the ravine, but it's not quite clear whether he's on the side of the Forest folk. |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 5, 2021 6:11:47 GMT
I'm on board with the ancient Court being huge jerks, but that's kinda the norm for human ancestors. The modern court humans didn't seem to be aware of the magic death shield situation, which I guess isn't good but not really something they could control. I'm not convinced it's evidence the Court's current efforts are more or less morally ambiguous then Coyete and the Forests generally amoral chaotic atmosphere. I mean we see magic characters expressing dismay, but that just tracks that they wouldn't trust science and humans interfacing with what makes them tick. That doesn't mean human curiosity and our desire to understand and control anything and everything we encounter is bad, I mean its what helps the world spin. The modern day Court has always seemed more full of itself then outright malicious to me, but i can see we have some varying opinions on that subject.
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Post by aline on Jul 5, 2021 7:28:43 GMT
I'm on board with the ancient Court being huge jerks, but that's kinda the norm for human ancestors. The modern court humans didn't seem to be aware of the magic death shield situation, which I guess isn't good but not really something they could control. I'm not convinced it's evidence the Court's current efforts are more or less morally ambiguous then Coyete and the Forests generally amoral chaotic atmosphere. I mean we see magic characters expressing dismay, but that just tracks that they wouldn't trust science and humans interfacing with what makes them tick. That doesn't mean human curiosity and our desire to understand and control anything and everything we encounter is bad, I mean its what helps the world spin. The modern day Court has always seemed more full of itself then outright malicious to me, but i can see we have some varying opinions on that subject. There's no evidence their philosophy of using innocent people to accomplish their goal has changed at any point. The way they treated Annie (it's not even that her punishment for cheating was harsh, it's how they threatened her wellbeing in order to manipulate her father). The way they have such heavy surveillance on their own folks to the point where clever people like Tony do a thorough sweep of their own house before they speak of certain things. The way they abandoned the Chester students to their own devices after Loup's attacks, because apparently you can just dump a bunch of children once you no longer need them. Whatever is going on with the hollow fairies... They have a track record of treating people like tools. It's incredibly creepy to watch how they treat *their own people*. I have a hard time accepting that it's supposed to be fine because the Forest this and the Forest that. The Forest has its own bad shit, but it doesn't make what the Court's doing ok. I'm not arguing that they are "worse" or "better" than the Forest, I say that they are bad. Fundamentally bad. You can put a murderer next to another murderer, he still committed murder. "My neighbour is an asshole too" isn't a defence. |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 5, 2021 8:01:20 GMT
I'm on board with the ancient Court being huge jerks, but that's kinda the norm for human ancestors. The modern court humans didn't seem to be aware of the magic death shield situation, which I guess isn't good but not really something they could control. I'm not convinced it's evidence the Court's current efforts are more or less morally ambiguous then Coyete and the Forests generally amoral chaotic atmosphere. I mean we see magic characters expressing dismay, but that just tracks that they wouldn't trust science and humans interfacing with what makes them tick. That doesn't mean human curiosity and our desire to understand and control anything and everything we encounter is bad, I mean its what helps the world spin. The modern day Court has always seemed more full of itself then outright malicious to me, but i can see we have some varying opinions on that subject. There's no evidence their philosophy of using innocent people to accomplish their goal has changed at any point. The way they treated Annie (it's not even that her punishment for cheating was harsh, it's how they threatened her wellbeing in order to manipulate her father). The way they have such heavy surveillance on their own folks to the point where clever people like Tony do a thorough sweep of their own house before they speak of certain things. The way they abandoned the Chester students to their own devices after Loup's attacks, because apparently you can just dump a bunch of children once you no longer need them. Whatever is going on with the hollow fairies... They have a track record of treating people like tools. It's incredibly creepy to watch how they treat *their own people*. I have a hard time accepting that it's supposed to be fine because the Forest this and the Forest that. The Forest has its own bad shit, but it doesn't make what the Court's doing ok. I'm not arguing that they are "worse" or "better" than the Forest, I say that they are bad. Fundamentally bad. You can put a murderer next to another murderer, he still committed murder. "My neighbour is an asshole too" isn't a defence. I mean, I just don't see anything you described as very abnormal behavior for humans. If you cheat in some schools, you're done. The worst parts of that came from Tony, not the Court. Governments in general(which the Court is essentially) are pretty well known for surveillance, and considering the powers and technology at play in the court, like the Chester students, I don't think the spying on students and abandoning the dangerous ones is an evil action, cowardly and morally questionable for sure, but bravery and trust aren't common qualities and lacking them isn't a malicious action. The fairy situation is confusing from both sides, but it seems like a consensual decision everyone understands and that all parties feel they benefit from and play a part in operating. I am saying the Court isn’t t bad, just like the Forest isn't bad. Both groups aren't good either of course, unless you happen to be loyal to one side or the other. And that boils down to a very deep nature and freedom versus technology and control conversation, and I'm just not convinced one Philosophy is significantly better or worse then the other. I definitely haven't gotten an evil vibe from anyone but Loup and the Ancient Court folk, but I do understand why the Court is seen that way. |
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Post by aline on Jul 5, 2021 8:07:56 GMT
I mean, I just don't see anything you described as very abnormal behavior for humans. Burning down cities and raping civilians isn't very abnormal behavior for humans. Neither, arguably, are pogroms and genocide. What is your point? That if things have been done before they can't be considered morally wrong? Don't know that many school who'd use your cheating to blackmail your parents, but maybe you know things I don't. When was the last time you had to check for listening devices inside your own living room. There are different levels of surveillance. Adults who work for them, who are on their side, who are not mysterious students with mysterious powers, expect the Court to know every word they say in their own living room. That's what I'd expect from a dystopian dictatorship. If you don't think it's evil to abandon children that were purposefully brought to the Court so they could be used then we have very different moral compasses. "Dangerous". Seriously. It's cruel and the hollow fairy didn't consent in being created that way. We don't know what their deal is, but they seem to be created to only want things the Court can easily give them and do a lot of valuale work with no breaks. I guess we'll find out eventually. |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 5, 2021 8:13:37 GMT
I mean, I just don't see anything you described as very abnormal behavior for humans. Burning down cities and raping civilians isn't very abnormal behavior for humans. Neither, arguably, are pogroms and genocide. What is your point? That if things have been done before they can't be considered morally wrong? I mean, I don't feel those actions are comparable. Those actions cause intentional direct harm, and the modern Court hasn't been shown to have done those things. They have been shown to spy, consider expelling and exiling cheating students, and leave magic alone or work to manipulate it depending on how safe they feel about the overall situation. Just doesn't seem like genocide or rape to me. That subject matter is a little outside what this comic has ever covered in fact, so forgive me if I don't consider it much when judging the Court. |
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Post by aline on Jul 5, 2021 8:23:03 GMT
Burning down cities and raping civilians isn't very abnormal behavior for humans. Neither, arguably, are pogroms and genocide. What is your point? That if things have been done before they can't be considered morally wrong? I mean, I don't feel those actions are comparable. Those actions cause intentional direct harm, and the modern Court hasn't been shown to have done those things. They have been shown to spy, consider expelling and exiling cheating students, and leave magic alone or work to manipulate it depending on how safe they feel about the overall situation. Just doesn't seem like genocide or rape to me. That subject matter is a little outside what this comic has ever covered in fact, so forgive me if I don't consider it much when judging the Court. I'm trying to find out how "normal behavior for humans" can equate "not evil actually". That's not an argument that works. Lots of normal human behaviors are extremely evil. Can we agree on that? |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 5, 2021 8:38:25 GMT
I mean, I don't feel those actions are comparable. Those actions cause intentional direct harm, and the modern Court hasn't been shown to have done those things. They have been shown to spy, consider expelling and exiling cheating students, and leave magic alone or work to manipulate it depending on how safe they feel about the overall situation. Just doesn't seem like genocide or rape to me. That subject matter is a little outside what this comic has ever covered in fact, so forgive me if I don't consider it much when judging the Court. I'm trying to find out how "normal behavior for humans" can equate "not evil actually". That's not an argument that works. Lots of normal human behaviors are extremely evil. Can we agree on that? Yes, but some normal behavior isn't evil just because it's not kind, not that it makes it good. Its just understandable, or what people will do to live in controlled, safety based society. Spying on your population is taboo, but (I think) every government ever has done it to some degree. Are all governments evil for spying? I don't think so, but again that isn't a fact, just an opinion. Is the way the Court wanted to punish Annie morally questionable, or just how it ended up playing out? I'm not saying that because something is typical its okay, just that some typical human behaviors the Court has are being seen as very malicious, and I just see it as how business as usual would be in a human not magic world within a magic world. They need to do better for sure, but they aren't a big bad that needs to be put down either. Just humans being dumb and human, waiting for someone with some balance to help make things a little better. |
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Post by aline on Jul 5, 2021 8:56:17 GMT
Yes, but some normal behavior isn't evil just because it's not kind, not that it makes it good. Dude. "not kind"? I guess we do have very different moral compasses. |
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Post by todd on Jul 5, 2021 12:45:06 GMT
It doesn't help that Coyote's been "running the show" enough to encourage the chaos to continue for his own ends. I think that's the key here. Coyote had the knowledge and power to shut down the Seed Bismuth entirely (assuming it was a failed experiment), knock some heads together and force the two sides to the negotiating table to come to an agreement they could both live with. Instead, he created a stop-gap measure with the etheric Forest structure (did he get bored before fixing it properly? or did he already anticipate Loup?) and then just amplified the resentment between the two sides. He may have been on the Forest side of the ravine, but it's not quite clear whether he's on the side of the Forest folk. In light of the "Coyote wanted to die" revelation, I've wondered whether Coyote saw the Court vs. Forest troubles as just the opportunity for a new trickster adventure (death), no different in essence from the ones he'd had back in the American Southwest (like trying to create humans or disguising himself as a dead goose by a lake); to him, the factions were just an instrument he could exploit to add to his legend. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 5, 2021 15:27:17 GMT
Kat confirms that the arrow is not dangerous here. She makes the point that a tool is only as dangerous as the user even earlier, here. It seems I had indeed forgotten that part. However, I must disagree with Kat. That a tool is only as dangerous as its user is only valid when the user has truly understood the tool. And I doubt Kat has truly understood the arrow (likely because she has trouble understanding its Etheric properties). The forest folk allowed the Founders to settle in their forest which was then threatened to be obliterated by the uncontrolled spread of the Court. From what we know, that was the original reason why the forest folk was upset, not the experiments. When being true to oneself includes includes destroying your neighbors' ancestral home after arriving there, one's neighbors are absolutely entitled to wanting the others to leave (that they likely did not ask in a very diplomatic fashion is another story). Also, why should Gillitie have been the only place for the Founders to go to? Yes, and not only that, the others also didn't ask. The plan enacted is so far-fetched, it's impossible they did not consider obvious solutions like posting human or robotic guards (or both) at their borders. They probably thought something like "why invest into materials or risk the lives of guards when Diego just provided us with an elegant self-sustaining solution that also lets us get rid of a possible weak spot in our structure (since Jeanne loved a man from the Forest)?" |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 5, 2021 15:45:44 GMT
Yes, but some normal behavior isn't evil just because it's not kind, not that it makes it good. Dude. "not kind"? I guess we do have very different moral compasses. Should I have said because it's selfish or shortsighted? Word choice isn't my strength. But yeah, I think so as far as the moral compasses thing. You seem to be a good deal nicer and idealistic then me. Im kind of a jerk, and I definitively believe in a large amount of moral ambiguity, in stories in practicular. I choose to give everyone some benefit of the doubt, because the other choice is to just assume everyone is always acting with the worst intentions. I have a pretty utilitarian and pro humanity style of morality, unfortunately for everyone. |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 5, 2021 18:14:06 GMT
I think that's the key here. Coyote had the knowledge and power to shut down the Seed Bismuth entirely (assuming it was a failed experiment), knock some heads together and force the two sides to the negotiating table to come to an agreement they could both live with. Instead, he created a stop-gap measure with the etheric Forest structure (did he get bored before fixing it properly? or did he already anticipate Loup?) and then just amplified the resentment between the two sides. He may have been on the Forest side of the ravine, but it's not quite clear whether he's on the side of the Forest folk. In light of the "Coyote wanted to die" revelation, I've wondered whether Coyote saw the Court vs. Forest troubles as just the opportunity for a new trickster adventure (death), no different in essence from the ones he'd had back in the American Southwest (like trying to create humans or disguising himself as a dead goose by a lake); to him, the factions were just an instrument he could exploit to add to his legend. Probably not just his 'death adventure', he does seem to have another plan. But I struggle to think of a single time Coyote did a genuinely selfless thing, so it's probably just another adventure, e.g. 'I'm so awesome that I helped a human become a god even after I died', or something. So yeah, pretty sure he's just exploiting the factions. He has form on using intelligent beings for fun. |
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Post by warrl on Jul 5, 2021 21:30:44 GMT
Dude. "not kind"? I guess we do have very different moral compasses. Should I have said because it's selfish or shortsighted? Word choice isn't my strength. But yeah, I think so as far as the moral compasses thing. You seem to be a good deal nicer and idealistic then me. Im kind of a jerk, and I definitively believe in a large amount of moral ambiguity, in stories in practicular. I choose to give everyone some benefit of the doubt, because the other choice is to just assume everyone is always acting with the worst intentions. I have a pretty utilitarian and pro humanity style of morality, unfortunately for everyone. "Selfish or shortsighted" is not necessarily evil. But evil can definitely also be selfish and/or shortsighted. |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 5, 2021 21:45:12 GMT
Should I have said because it's selfish or shortsighted? Word choice isn't my strength. But yeah, I think so as far as the moral compasses thing. You seem to be a good deal nicer and idealistic then me. Im kind of a jerk, and I definitively believe in a large amount of moral ambiguity, in stories in practicular. I choose to give everyone some benefit of the doubt, because the other choice is to just assume everyone is always acting with the worst intentions. I have a pretty utilitarian and pro humanity style of morality, unfortunately for everyone. "Selfish or shortsighted" is not necessarily evil. But evil can definitely also be selfish and/or shortsighted. Yep, and seeing the Court as evil is understandable, just not a position I agree with. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 5, 2021 22:05:34 GMT
Now let's see how well it works. Ah, the problem is not how well it works, but how well it ends. It may work in the sense it succeeds at stealing a lot of power from Loup… but if the result is being stuck with angry Loup and constantly giggling electric grid, this would not exactly improve the situation, yes? |
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Post by todd on Jul 5, 2021 23:52:03 GMT
Probably not just his 'death adventure', he does seem to have another plan. I think so as well; the involvement of the goose bone and lake water makes it clear that Coyote's plan didn't end with his death. |
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Post by todd on Jul 6, 2021 0:05:43 GMT
Although the Court's done a lot of bad things (and I'm uneasy about its current action; yes, Loup's a mad despot who's harming his own polity as well as the neighboring one, but what the Court's just done here feels like violating a diplomatic meeting - in human terms, like sniping the other side's leader in the middle of a negotiation), I still hesitate at calling it evil. To me, "evil" would mean far more corrupt motives (say, having the goal be, not to understand the ether scientifically, but to weaponize it and conquer the world with it). (I've compared and contrasted the Court with N.I.C.E. from C. S. Lewis's "That Hideous Strength", and I'd say that N.I.C.E. qualifies as "evil" far better than the Court does - although the Court, perhaps in part because it's less corrupt, strikes me as more dangerous.)
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Post by speedwell on Jul 6, 2021 4:15:11 GMT
Although the Court's done a lot of bad things (and I'm uneasy about its current action; yes, Loup's a mad despot who's harming his own polity as well as the neighboring one, but what the Court's just done here feels like violating a diplomatic meeting - in human terms, like sniping the other side's leader in the middle of a negotiation), I still hesitate at calling it evil. To me, "evil" would mean far more corrupt motives (say, having the goal be, not to understand the ether scientifically, but to weaponize it and conquer the world with it). (I've compared and contrasted the Court with N.I.C.E. from C. S. Lewis's "That Hideous Strength", and I'd say that N.I.C.E. qualifies as "evil" far better than the Court does - although the Court, perhaps in part because it's less corrupt, strikes me as more dangerous.) I submit that a That Hideous Strength scenario would be more analogous to Renard's situation (a Forest entity working within the NICE entity initially as a misunderstood pseudo-ally) and that I expect Renard to wind up like (spoiler alert for those who haven't read the Lewis book) Merlin in that he will eventually regain a sense of his own divinity and power, and draw the help of the Forest to him to, if not absolutely defeat, at least strike a severe blow to, the Court. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 6, 2021 8:21:27 GMT
Now let's see how well it works. Ah, the problem is not how well it works, but how well it ends. It may work in the sense it succeeds at stealing a lot of power from Loup… but if the result is being stuck with angry Loup and constantly giggling electric grid, this would not exactly improve the situation, yes? It's difficult to say but I'd guess that the Court, by pulling this stunt, is buying time in return for a higher probability of hostilities later. Yes, Antimony chucking the lake water did force "Loup" to abort his attack on her companions but we don't know what he would have done after assimilating it. Maybe he wouldn't have attacked, maybe he would have remembered he was Coyote, but maybe he would have just continued his attack (perhaps in frustration for what he learned or didn't learn). Given that they only have Antimony's after-action debriefings to judge "Loup" on and they haven't been impressed with her overall performance and probably don't trust her, or better to say they trust her to make the situation worse, I can understand why they're doing what they're doing. I disagree with it from my perspective as a reader of the comic, but I understand it. Doing nothing is sometimes the right move in a crisis but it's often easier to do something, even if it will probably make things worse. Not too worried about a giggling electric grid. The extractors purify the ether so any intention or personhood should get filtered out. It may also adjust frequency or change some quality to make it easier to store and transmit. Pretty sure the etheric setup is separate from the grid, anyway. What they should worry about is the treatment of and containment for the waste product (assuming there is any) and their storage capacity for ether. "Loup" should be continuously replenished by Coyote's power, though continuously draining him should interrupt anything he's trying to do that requires ether. They can't just ground out any unrequested surplus of energy because that would (probably) flow right back into "Loup" through the environment via Coyote's power. Sooner or later they're going to twist up more ether than they can hold; unless they can use it for something they're going to have a containment breach. The more immediate concern should be the waste product. If they vacuum up a Coyote back-from-the-dead visitation then I'm expecting something suitably nightmarish to appear that their previous experiments with generic ether in nature may not have prepared them for. |
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Post by todd on Jul 6, 2021 13:02:13 GMT
I submit that a That Hideous Strength scenario would be more analogous to Renard's situation (a Forest entity working within the NICE entity initially as a misunderstood pseudo-ally) and that I expect Renard to wind up like (spoiler alert for those who haven't read the Lewis book) Merlin in that he will eventually regain a sense of his own divinity and power, and draw the help of the Forest to him to, if not absolutely defeat, at least strike a severe blow to, the Court. I hadn't thought of that, though I think it oddly appropriate if Renard had a similar role; he and Merlin are both classic figures from medieval legend. But, as I mentioned above, the clear difference between the Court and the Institute (although they have many things in common - the willingness to put morality aside to achieve their goals, the fear and distrust of nature and attempt to replace it with "safe" artificial substitutes, the nebulous structure (which the Court has outdone the Institute on; over eight volumes in, we still don't know who the real members of the Court's Inner Circle are and whether the Headmaster is really one of them or just a mouthpiece) is that the Court really is a scientific organization that just wants to study the ether and figure out how it works, to fit it into their world-view, where the Institute just wanted to take over the world (and even its scientific facade was based more on "social planning" than on science in the sense of studying the natural world and learning more about it). The natural world in "Gunnerkrigg Court" is just as greyish as the Court, and there's definitely no counterpart to Ransom's company in the Court universe. (The "fake guides" who manipulated Antony for their entertainment might be the "fallen eldils" counterpart, but there's no sign that they've had any involvement with anyone other than Antony, let alone acting as secret masters of the Court.) |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 6, 2021 20:46:32 GMT
You are right. But on pages 2484 and 2486 we also see Annie and the stones on the ground casting long shadows behind them. Where exactly IS the light source? Is it Loup? Is it the ground below him? I mean, it's a good question, isn't it? I've been assuming it was all the Etherealightning (tm) that Loup was emitting, which was mostly on the ground, or passing between Loup and the ground. |
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) - for me, these were actions during a war where one side was worried about being wiped out without a trace at any moment. So they did something unarguably terrible to save the lives of (at least) hundreds (over the history of the Court, likely thousands - the moment 
