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Post by jda on Jul 2, 2021 16:13:06 GMT
I've been thinking that, knowing Tom, he has kept a lot of plot lines in reserve to pull forward in unexpected ways. Since this is a hugely complex story, it's kind of like a piano - every note is important, but not every note gets played in every performance. I've long suspected that there are more "main characters" in the Court other than the ones who are upstage on a regular basis, and it is foolish for us to assume that Aata is not equally powerful as or even more powerful than Eglamore or Jones, in the scheme of things. In fact I think most of us suspected that the real authority at Court is a shadowy cabal we know virtually nothing about, except that it was once willing to sacrifice one of its own members in a particularly cruel and spiritually hideous way in the distant past. /wildspec And the Shadow Men was founded by the one that went "rogue" on first panel |
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Post by bicarbonat on Jul 2, 2021 16:52:25 GMT
No, they hope a lot more from that encounter. Maybe to destroy Loup, or to control him somehow? They've been playing around with the ether, anything is possible really. Extract the Ether from Coyote. Like with the water.Only a measly canine would remain. And then KILL THE DOG. It would go right back around to that story he told Annie. |
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Post by rylfrazier on Jul 2, 2021 17:40:54 GMT
The court is neither powerless or incompetent - if they have a plan I imagine that it'll be at a minimum interesting to see how it turns out.
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Post by saardvark on Jul 2, 2021 17:53:30 GMT
ah, Sandman, a most excellent series.... |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 2, 2021 18:42:00 GMT
I've been thinking that, knowing Tom, he has kept a lot of plot lines in reserve to pull forward in unexpected ways. Since this is a hugely complex story, it's kind of like a piano - every note is important, but not every note gets played in every performance. I've long suspected that there are more "main characters" in the Court other than the ones who are upstage on a regular basis, and it is foolish for us to assume that Aata is not equally powerful as or even more powerful than Eglamore or Jones, in the scheme of things. In fact I think most of us suspected that the real authority at Court is a shadowy cabal we know virtually nothing about, except that it was once willing to sacrifice one of its own members in a particularly cruel and spiritually hideous way in the distant past. /wildspec And the Shadow Men was founded by the one that went "rogue" on first panel |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 2, 2021 18:57:49 GMT
So on the previous page, Annie tried to distract Loup from attacking the others, most likely Parley and James as they were the ones pictured, by tossing the lake water vial at him. Here we see that this seems to have worked, because Loup turns his head to devour the vial, tongue hanging out, saliva dribbling off the end of it. And then Loup must have pulled in his tongue reflexively, because, well, CHOMP and stuff. I notice that in the first frame there's still a bit of the lightning coming from Loup's eyes, which we've seen ever since he first appeared in this chapter. But now, that's been replaced by a number of red and white ray-like emanations and some fainter white ones as well. There are some scraps of energy around the red ones. It's difficult to see whether these are centered on Loup's eyes or his mouth, because of the angle from which we are viewing them, but I'm guessing it's his mouth. If the eye-lightning was an indication of his concentration on the Forest, that appears to have ceased, as he's currently ingesting a bunch of Coyote mojo, which must be distracting. I mean, it'd distract me. Then, just as happened when Loup swallowed the goose bone, Coyote pops out of Loup's forehead – or a piece of him, anyway, that part of Coyote that he stored within the lake water to see what happened. And, just as before, he doesn't have the red stripe on his back representing his strength, although he does seem to have the rest of his markings. Well, we can't tell whether he has all those eye markings. Anyway, HAHA HA HA HA, he says, his tongue hanging out of his mouth in wavy stair steps. And finally, in a small corner frame, Aata appears, that incessant grin on his face, saying, "Now." Now? Now, the first thing I'd assume is that this is some kind of signal to the rest of the Shadow Men to push the button or otherwise activate whatever they have planned. Or maybe it's the signal to run away. Or maybe it's just a stratagem to confuse Coyote. Who knows? Not me. We'll have to wait until Monday to see. Now to read other people's comments ... |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 2, 2021 19:14:13 GMT
I'm afraid the court has underestimated coyote severely. he did let loup know that loup was going to die, and while he wouldnt understand coyote's plan he would appreciate it before he died. Yes, Coyote's prophecy was that the water contained a memory of a plan, and when Loup learned of the plan, he would agree that it was an excellent plan, and then he would die. Now, when Loup swallowed the goose bone, he didn't get the memory back right away – the fragment of Coyote showed up right away, bantered for a while, and then finally granted Loup access to the memory. So since we've got another fragment of Coyote showing up here, that suggests that Loup isn't getting the memory back just yet. It'll happen when the Coyote fragment allows it to happen. So, unless the Court can actually prevent Coyote's plan from happening, this means that Loup can't die until he gets the memory – meaning that if the Court captures Coyote's fragment here, preventing him from revealing the memory to Loup, they're effectively prolonging Loup's life. I'm not sure what this gets them – maybe they'll be able to see the plan before Loup does? So much depends on what "Now" means. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 2, 2021 19:19:42 GMT
BY THE WAY, people. The shadows on Aata's forehead look so angular. Any idea if this means something? Or does the light come from directly below, making his eyebrows cast shadows?
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 2, 2021 19:27:00 GMT
I still think the Court is being underestimated and might have a plan that works. Cunning and a proper plan have the potential to beat overwhelming power, in stories in practicular. Or ... it might work for a while but then backfire on them. Or it might not get them what they want. The thing about plots is that they develop. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 2, 2021 19:32:04 GMT
I still think the Court is being underestimated and might have a plan that works. Cunning and a proper plan have the potential to beat overwhelming power, in stories in practicular. Or ... it might work for a while but then backfire on them. Or it might not get them what they want. The thing about plots is that they develop. Like their plan to capture Renard. Yes, it lead to his capture, but it got one of their students killed and likely also spurred their medium's decision to leave the Court.
Although, now that I think about it... who says the Court did not expect someone to be hurt or killed? After all, only this gave them a "reason" to hold him indefinitely... ("Why is Renard being held at the Court?" "Well, he killed that young man, of course!") How else would the Court have justified imprisoning Renard in front of his pack members?
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 2, 2021 19:32:06 GMT
BY THE WAY, people. The shadows on Aata's forehead look so angular. Any idea if this means something? Or does the light come from directly below, making his eyebrows cast shadows? The light has been coming from below in other frames in this chapter. Third frame on this page. Third frame on this page too. Final frame on this page. First frame on this page. Final frame on this page. These are all Annie, but that just might mean that Aata has quietly approached close enough to be illuminated – or for the illumination to spread to where Aata is standing. My guess is that it simply means that it's time for Aata to do something. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 2, 2021 19:35:44 GMT
BY THE WAY, people. The shadows on Aata's forehead look so angular. Any idea if this means something? Or does the light come from directly below, making his eyebrows cast shadows? The light has been coming from below in other frames in this chapter. Third frame on this page. Third frame on this page too. Final frame on this page. First frame on this page. Final frame on this page. These are all Annie, but that just might mean that Aata has quietly approached close enough to be illuminated – or for the illumination to spread to where Aata is standing. My guess is that it simply means that it's time for Aata to do something. You are right. But on pages 2484 and 2486 we also see Annie and the stones on the ground casting long shadows behind them. Where exactly IS the light source? Is it Loup? Is it the ground below him? |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Jul 2, 2021 22:14:11 GMT
Hmm, I had a sudden thought reading through the last few comments. We've seen that the Court takes in animals and fairies from the forest and turns them into humans if they wish, but they need to die first and be turned into a totem. We've seen that Coyote wishes to experience death, and has told Loup that once Loup finds out the rest of his plan, he will agree with it, and then will die. We've also seen that Coyote wishes to experience everything, and thinks that himself and the other gods only exist due to human imagination. What if this whole thing is some long term plan for Coyote himself to become human, to die but then be reborn into a human body. I LOVE this idea if only because it has the potential for being a Q story (from star trek) BUT because of that I also think from a writing standpoint this won't happen because it would then just be the Coyote show. Besides I don't think Loup would agree to becoming human as Coyote said Loup would agree to his plan. But Gunnerkrigg Court has ALWAYS been The Coyote Show? Even before I showed up. Such are the mysteries of the Ether. |
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Post by todd on Jul 3, 2021 0:04:00 GMT
So now we see who wins out, Aata and the Court's etheric machinations, or Coyote and his ineffable plans. I am fully expecting that "getting captured" will be part of Coyote's plan from the start, he is a master of Xanathos Gambits after all A remark I find amusing, since Xanatos (the man whom those Gambits were named after) did try to capture Coyote in an episode of "Gargoyles" once. (The Coyote of "Gargoyles" looked rather different from the one we know; sometimes like a young man, sometimes like a dust devil with a stylized coyote head. Xanatos, incidentally, was using as part of his Coyote-trap a robot also known as Coyote - the latest in a line of Coyote robots in the series - which produced a bit of light-hearted confusion, not to mention Coyote the Trickster commenting that he ought to sue Xanatos for trademark infringement.) And Coyote did have a secret agenda, revealed at the end, though a rather sweet one. (If anyone's interested in seeing it, it's the episode "Cloud Fathers" of "Gargoyles", and should be available on Disney Plus. It's also on the Season Two Part Two DVD of "Gargoyles".) |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 3, 2021 0:43:54 GMT
I still think the Court is being underestimated and might have a plan that works. Cunning and a proper plan have the potential to beat overwhelming power, in stories in practicular. Or ... it might work for a while but then backfire on them. Or it might not get them what they want. The thing about plots is that they develop. This is true, the plan working is very unlikely to be the end of the conflict. But whatever the Court does going as planned and wrecking Coyetes plan is another way things could develop. Honestly I don't think that's likely, the Court plan working for a bit and then backfiring would be my first bet. |
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Post by OrzBrain on Jul 3, 2021 2:01:21 GMT
So is this Coyote's plan? Create the dangerous and unstable Loup to bait the Court into a premature usage of their Omega etheric thingamajig so he has the chance to do something about it with a higher probability of success?
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Post by silicondream on Jul 3, 2021 3:34:53 GMT
"Hello, Loup. Do you like...fun?"
Par-ty! Par-ty! Par-ty!
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Post by maxptc on Jul 3, 2021 3:47:53 GMT
So is this Coyote's plan? Create the dangerous and unstable Loup to bait the Court into a premature usage of their Omega etheric thingamajig so he has the chance to do something about it with a higher probability of success? I like this theory. I mean,"experiencing death" is understandable and all, but its never screamed grand plan to me, and I'm super convinced Coyote has a grand plan. I mean, he could have died whenever if he wanted, that part works even if Ysengrin/Loup can't attack the Court. |
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Post by rafk on Jul 3, 2021 6:49:37 GMT
I swear if there isn't a massive Ghostbusters reference in the next few pages, it will surely be a travesty. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had that imagery in my head for what's about to happen. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Jul 3, 2021 7:01:29 GMT
I still think the Court is being underestimated and might have a plan that works. Cunning and a proper plan have the potential to beat overwhelming power, in stories in practicular. The court successfully came up with a plan that closed passage across the Annan waters for... how many years?... until the court built a bridge over to allow crossings on their terms. They are not idiots, their plans often work, especially if they have been planning/plotting them for a long time. I don't know what they are about to do, but I am sure it will have a devastating effect. Oh, and I think Atta's last name is Steadman.  |
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Post by vanzetti on Jul 3, 2021 9:34:05 GMT
Though it was expected, Coyote's sudden appearance is still quite jarring. So which is scarier, a rabid Loup or a laughing Coyote? I'm sure Suit Buddha has his plans and contingencies, but I'm fairly sure Coyote is still a step ahead. If the Court actually managed to trick Coyote, I think he'd be pleased with the surprise. Can't wait for Monday. Oh yes. Coyote can only win. Either he is pleased because his plans worked, or he is pleased because someone managed to surprise him / show him a new trick. "Everything is going just as planned". Is Coyote literally Tzeentch?
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Post by saardvark on Jul 3, 2021 11:19:39 GMT
BY THE WAY, people. The shadows on Aata's forehead look so angular. Any idea if this means something? Or does the light come from directly below, making his eyebrows cast shadows? Im guessing eyebrows and light from below. The shadows are growing so symmetric from them... (I suppose another possibility is the shadows of Eggs and Parley, who are tall and in front of little Aata - not that angular though...). Reminds me of a professor I had - he had these enormously extended eyebrows - they must have grown 2cm out from his face. We often wondered if birds could perch on them. So I'm imagining that every gram of foccular hair-growing power in Aata's being has concentrated on growing EYEBROWS OF INFINITE DOOM (great for casting shadows), rather than the something on the arid moonscape of his scalp. |
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Post by razgrizx on Jul 3, 2021 16:11:52 GMT
Why does Loup have such a deep purple tongue when both Coyote and Ys had normal colored tongues? It's been bothering me for a while now, that can't be healthy for a wolf-god!
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 3, 2021 17:04:44 GMT
At the risk of sounding controversial, I kinda hope that the Court's scheme works, or at the very least I understand why they are doing it. Loup is a menace, he's a danger not just to the Court but the Forest as well. He can't be reasoned with and he's essentially a ticking time bomb with vast power. The Court has clearly always been wary of Coyote (quite rightly, as it turns out), but they put up with him because of some misplaced trust in his promise that he will 'leave the Court alone'. As Jones noted, Coyote twists the truth though - sure, technically it wasn't him that interfered, but really, he was the direct cause, given that he knew exactly what was going to happen. So the Court can never go back to playing ostrich about him, even if he were to be reborn, because he can always just pull another one of these tricks and risk the lives of everyone. Beyond that - well, the Court is just doing what humans always do, they ask questions and they are trying to understand the world around them, which in this case also includes the ether. Granted, that exploration in itself seems to be the danger, but as far as we can tell, no one has ever actually taken the time to explain that to them. |
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Post by aline on Jul 3, 2021 18:24:44 GMT
At the risk of sounding controversial, I kinda hope that the Court's scheme works, or at the very least I understand why they are doing it. Loup is a menace, he's a danger not just to the Court but the Forest as well. He can't be reasoned with and he's essentially a ticking time bomb with vast power. I mean, whether that's controversial or not is going to depend a lot on what exactly they're doing? Creating a magical barrier to prevent creatures from intruding into the Court? Sounds like a fine idea. Murdering two innocent people and tying their very souls to the river for all times so that their restless rage and despair can be used as a barrier? Sounds... like a crime that should you send you in prison for the rest of your sorry life, probably. Also whatever they're doing, they started it long, long before Loup existed. We know the Omega project was already a thing when the cast's parents were young adults. And, Ysengrin told us one of the reasons he immediately attacked after eating Coyote was *because* he suddenly knew what Coyote knew about what the Court was planning to do. I'm very bothered by this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2027"The Court is far worse than I imagined!" "I cannot let it stand!" That sounds... ominous. Educated guess is their plan involves more horrifying damage to perfectly innocent people in service of their interests. |
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Post by warrl on Jul 3, 2021 19:24:13 GMT
Why does Loup have such a deep purple tongue when both Coyote and Ys had normal colored tongues? It's been bothering me for a while now, that can't be healthy for a wolf-god! Well, maybe it's Chow time... |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 3, 2021 21:04:19 GMT
At the risk of sounding controversial, I kinda hope that the Court's scheme works, or at the very least I understand why they are doing it. Loup is a menace, he's a danger not just to the Court but the Forest as well. He can't be reasoned with and he's essentially a ticking time bomb with vast power. I mean, whether that's controversial or not is going to depend a lot on what exactly they're doing? Creating a magical barrier to prevent creatures from intruding into the Court? Sounds like a fine idea. Murdering two innocent people and tying their very souls to the river for all times so that their restless rage and despair can be used as a barrier? Sounds... like a crime that should you send you in prison for the rest of your sorry life, probably. Also whatever they're doing, they started it long, long before Loup existed. We know the Omega project was already a thing when the cast's parents were young adults. And, Ysengrin told us one of the reasons he immediately attacked after eating Coyote was *because* he suddenly knew what Coyote knew about what the Court was planning to do. I'm very bothered by this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2027"The Court is far worse than I imagined!" "I cannot let it stand!" That sounds... ominous. Educated guess is their plan involves more horrifying damage to perfectly innocent people in service of their interests. Thing is, we don't actually know why they did that. At the very least, the very moment Coyote arrived, he created the Annan waters, so they definitely had a very sudden experience of how easily a god could wipe them all out. For all we know, Ysengrin may have started attacking the Court straight away, so they may have made the decision to sacrifice two people to avoid a full-blown war and the death of who knows many. (Obviously, Diego was a terrible person who may or may not have lied about this being the only way to fortify the waters and the Court leadership should have asked many more follow-up questions/should have considered diplomacy, but it is heavily implied that they didn't want to do the sacrifice and they were just scared out of their wits.) We don't know what the Omega device actually is - my hypothesis remains that it was originally just supposed to be a way of directly seeing/describing/understanding the ether, and it was only repurposed into a weapon/holding device when Loup showed up. Oh, and I thought that Ysengrin meant the device that Loup mentioned? I might be wrong though! Hmm, present-day Court is actually not that bad, including to the creatures of the Forest (there are other examples, but it's getting late!). Don't get me wrong, they seem to be ignoring that robots are individuals, their plans for Annie's punishment for her cheating were unnecessarily severe, etc. But from what we have seen, the current Court leadership is not really any better or worse than the Forest leadership. I think it's been brought up on this forum before that Coyote, Ysengrin, Loup and Renardine all directly threatened Annie's life and they have all physically harmed (and likely killed some of) the people of the Court (with the possible exception of Coyote, I think we were told it was an empty building), but somehow those actions are considered less severely. I don't quite understand why that is? |
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Post by todd on Jul 3, 2021 23:42:02 GMT
Murdering two innocent people and tying their very souls to the river for all times so that their restless rage and despair can be used as a barrier? Sounds... like a crime that should you send you in prison for the rest of your sorry life, probably. Except that the people who carried out this plan are the ones running the community where it took place; who's going to send them to prison? |
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Post by todd on Jul 3, 2021 23:48:52 GMT
Thing is, we don't actually know why they did that. At the very least, the very moment Coyote arrived, he created the Annan waters, so they definitely had a very sudden experience of how easily a god could wipe them all out. For all we know, Ysengrin may have started attacking the Court straight away, so they may have made the decision to sacrifice two people to avoid a full-blown war and the death of who knows many. (Obviously, Diego was a terrible person who may or may not have lied about this being the only way to fortify the waters and the Court leadership should have asked many more follow-up questions/should have considered diplomacy, but it is heavily implied that they didn't want to do the sacrifice and they were just scared out of their wits.) We don't know what the Omega device actually is - my hypothesis remains that it was originally just supposed to be a way of directly seeing/describing/understanding the ether, and it was only repurposed into a weapon/holding device when Loup showed up. Oh, and I thought that Ysengrin meant the device that Loup mentioned? I might be wrong though! Hmm, present-day Court is actually not that bad, including to the creatures of the Forest (there are other examples, but it's getting late!). Don't get me wrong, they seem to be ignoring that robots are individuals, their plans for Annie's punishment for her cheating were unnecessarily severe, etc. But from what we have seen, the current Court leadership is not really any better or worse than the Forest leadership. I think it's been brought up on this forum before that Coyote, Ysengrin, Loup and Renardine all directly threatened Annie's life and they have all physically harmed (and likely killed some of) the people of the Court (with the possible exception of Coyote, I think we were told it was an empty building), but somehow those actions are considered less severely. I don't quite understand why that is? I think that part of the reason why we go easier on the Forest than on the Court is that the Forest characters mentioned above (particularly Coyote and Reynardine)are often funny and entertaining, while the Court leadership is coldly serious, veiled in shadows, etc. Consequently, we find their actions harder to forgive than those of the Forest canines. |
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Post by todd on Jul 4, 2021 0:09:58 GMT
Beyond that - well, the Court is just doing what humans always do, they ask questions and they are trying to understand the world around them, which in this case also includes the ether. Granted, that exploration in itself seems to be the danger, but as far as we can tell, no one has ever actually taken the time to explain that to them. Yes, it still strikes me that nobody who knows that this kind of tampering with the ether is dangerous seems to be making an effort to point this out to the Court. Of course, there seem to be understandable reasons for the various individuals who most likely know. The Forest-folk would rather growl and threaten than reason with their opponents. Coyote presumably wants to exploit the Court's doings for his own benefit (like having the adventure of dying to add to his trickster exploits). Jones is probably bound by her self-imposed non-intervention rules. Zimmy only cares about what happens to herself and Gamma - and the Court wouldn't likely listen to her anyway. And I suspect that, even if someone did try alerting the Court about the negative consequences of meddling with the ether, they'd ignore that person, due to their obsession. Since when does the mad scientist listen to the person who says "I've been looking over your plans for this experiment, and there are a lot of danger signals that I think you ought to know about...." (In fact, we've seen this on a smaller scale with Kat - who gets so excited about being able to mold the cruise ship's flesh-form that she forgets that it wants her to help it in an attempt at committing adultery until Paz points that out, and who unnecessarily incorporates Diego's arrow into the procedure to return Reynardine's ownershp to Annie, just to see what would happen.) I do think that the Court bears more responsibility for this trouble than the Forest (though the forest-folk's own behavior leaves a lot to be desired). It was the Court's insistence on figuring out how the ether worked scientifically that started the conflict; before the Court started prying, they were living harmoniously with the Forest. Their actions endangered the Wood; from the forest-folk's point of view, they are only trying to protect themselves from their dangerous neighbors whose experiments could destroy them. Until the Court gains some humility and proportion, and comes to understand that its attempt to understand how the ether works was misguided, I fear there's little hope for peace between the two groups - genuine peace. And, no doubt, the Court's darker aspects, such as its constant surveillance, stem from its fear of the Forest; if it had kept good relations with Gilltie Wood, it would have probably never ventured down the "secrets and lies" path. |
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