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Post by starburst98 on Oct 2, 2008 12:52:57 GMT
... you don't need to have sex to be a lesbian, you just have to like girls more then boys. also, am i a catalyst or something? i seem to ignite things way too easy.
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Post by agasa on Oct 2, 2008 14:49:21 GMT
Listen. Regardless from what i think about the point in itself, i know that the last time something like this did go around, it ended up with a massive posting of edited comics with semi-obscene text. As people around have clearly the tendency of mischief, and as this forum is to be read by anyone including kids, it might be a good idea returning to actually discussing the comic, instead of speculating on this. My personal opinion, also given by the fact i actually have "been there, done that" myself, is that Zimmy has a bad case of what i call "viral friendship", and it works independently from the gender of either party. When it seems that the whole world has something against you, apart from one person, you grasp this person like a leech with magnets, completely dependent on the friend. and sometimes you are so obsessive and consuming, that the friend simply runs away. This whole thing stems not as for love from a particular liking or from the beauty of the soul of the other party, but rather from depression and subconscious desperation, from the perceived emptiness of one's life in regard of contact to others. Ah, lastly: starburst98, it's only natural that you cause flames: with a name like that, one would expect stellar explosions at least
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Post by penguinfactory on Oct 2, 2008 15:23:45 GMT
Drama and Pathos!!
I just noticed now that Annie is actually arm-locking Zimmy in the second panel. I think this, along with the lack of pity she displays when looking at Zimmy on the ground, is another look at her darker side. That's some good character building.
I don't really get why the whole lesbian issue causes such controversy. To me, it seems as if when Zimmy says "love" she means.... well, love.
I had actually bene formuating a theory (officially titled "PenguinFactory's Greater character motivation theory") that Zimmy was just acting so protective of Gamma because Gamma is useful to her, and not because she actually likes her, but this pretty much sinks that (even more than the bonus page of "Dobronac, Gamma" did).
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Post by illusionist on Oct 2, 2008 17:25:03 GMT
Though I said I think it's platonic love, I'm actually starting to think it could be romantic due to the last panel. I could go either way depending on future evidence.
As for lying to Gamma, viral friendship, etc. I think the lies may have been due to fear of losing her. Zimmy isn't very popular, and seemingly for good reason. So she finds a girl she likes who depends on her for translation. Rather than tell her the truth and risk losing her, Zimmy does whatever it takes to keep Gamma on her side. Just my thoughts.
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Post by etcetera on Oct 2, 2008 18:19:25 GMT
I don't think Annie is showing an evil side at all or something. Although Zimmy attacked Annie, she was just mad and angry and didn't actually want to hurt her. Annie on the other hand didn't want to hurt Zimmy either, she just tried to prevent Zimmy from doing something she might regret later and told her to "calm down" by pinning her to the ground. It's more like an act of friendship. Zimmy is obviously not in physical pain and there is no hostility between the two. Then again, I've never been able to see even the slightest hint of evil in any character whatsoever.
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Post by edisoninari on Oct 2, 2008 18:50:24 GMT
What I like about the last few pages is that Annie is really asserting herself in her interactions with Zimmy. She is acting more like a leader in the social interactions with Zimmy than when she was with Kat and their classmates. Excluding the type of situation Annie is in now, it seems to show that Annie is in her element in odd and otherworldly situations.
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
Posts: 232
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Post by Chrome on Oct 3, 2008 0:45:30 GMT
I see it as friendship-type love. Nothing of the romantic sort.
They are only 12, 13. No point in discussing that. But you know how some guys will go "I love you man!" for the chips or an act of good friendship. Ya know? That kind of love. Sisterly, friendship love.
As for Annie, Eggers could have most certainly taught self-defense to the students. Remember this is a school where weird things could happen more often than in a Ghostbusters movie when the sh*t hit the fan. I'd have considered it a wise move to teach them some stuff kids their size and age could do. Hell, Jones would've considered it wise, and it probably was her idea to begin with. Whoever thought of teaching them swordfighting, anyways?
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Post by Yeagger on Oct 3, 2008 0:48:53 GMT
I really hate when the threads get like this. I'm not into "shipping", in anything, but especially Gunnerkrigg. On one hand, there's the "hints" (if you even want to call it that; I think a bit of insanity is invovled), on the other... well, pretty much everything.
These threads reaaaally wind everyone up and make everyone so very snippy.
It's silly to say they're lesbians simply because they love eachother. "Love" is a very complicated thing. In all honesty, they're probably just close friends, or have a "family" like relationship.
But, it could (probably isn't) be romantic. And saying they're 12/13, and thus "can't" love in such a manner is also a bit silly.
Also, Anne's just defending herself. May I ask, why is everyone acting like she's beating the crap out of Zimmy? I believe Zimmy was the one who tried hitting Anne.
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Post by starburst98 on Oct 3, 2008 1:55:55 GMT
thank you, Yeagger, you explained what i was trying to say but couldn't think up right.
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Post by Yeagger on Oct 3, 2008 2:31:17 GMT
Not a problem. I had to calm down from laughing to write that. Why is everyone so serious? It's a comic.
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Mesías
Junior Member
Shine on You crazy Diamond!
Posts: 57
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Post by Mesías on Oct 3, 2008 6:03:15 GMT
Also, Anne's just defending herself. May I ask, why is everyone acting like she's beating the crap out of Zimmy? I believe Zimmy was the one who tried hitting Anne. Agreed. I frankly was really surprised that people commented about that, almost more than the shipping. Why is everyone so serious? It's a comic. Well, for some people this is really a serious matter. Edit: link fixed.
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Post by Count Casimir on Oct 3, 2008 6:56:14 GMT
Thank you Yeagger, for saying so eloquently what I didn't manage to.
Also, @ mesias: your link doesn't lead anywhere.
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Post by King Mir on Oct 3, 2008 11:38:50 GMT
They are only 12, 13. No point in discussing that. But you know how some guys will go "I love you man!" for the chips or an act of good friendship. Ya know? That kind of love. Sisterly, friendship love. What ever kind of love it is, it's way deeper then a guys saying "I love you man". This isn't a ballgame, and nobody has beer in their hands.
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Post by cenit on Oct 3, 2008 13:35:19 GMT
Why is everyone saying "evil"... one of the great things of GC is that there are not "good guys vs bad guys"... although people can connect more to Kat than with Y's On a side note, I LOVE YOU ALL!!! and stop making such a big discussion over a word...
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Post by illusionist on Oct 3, 2008 16:55:14 GMT
What I like about the last few pages is that Annie is really asserting herself in her interactions with Zimmy. She is acting more like a leader in the social interactions with Zimmy than when she was with Kat and their classmates. Excluding the type of situation Annie is in now, it seems to show that Annie is in her element in odd and otherworldly situations. I like that she's being a leader, but she really could have handled everything better. Note to Annie: If somebody who actually knows what the Hell is going on says you need to find Gamma, stop crushing on Kat for five goddamn minutes and find Gamma.
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Madii
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by Madii on Oct 3, 2008 23:07:55 GMT
As for love, nothing says codependent like having an arm-and-leg-thrashing tantrum in the street because your anti-nightmare talisman got lost.
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Post by Shunpike on Oct 4, 2008 0:04:27 GMT
...I have no opinion. Zimmy and Gamma's relationship hasn't really been examined enough for me to get off the fence.
But yeah, this page of the thread has some good points.
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elpis
New Member
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Post by elpis on Oct 4, 2008 0:45:06 GMT
As a note before I begin, I have noticed Tom's post suggesting against ranting, but I think this falls just far enough from that to be used all the same. I have also noticed the fact that the thread has largely petered out, but I kept silent despite keeping up with the previous thread on this sort of subject and have regretted it since. So, after reading around ninety comments on the actual comic page and thirty posts here in this thread I'm afraid I'm going to have to speak from the heart in words best expressed by Popeye the Sailor.
“That's all I can stands, cuz I can't stands n'more!"
Despite that, though, I am going to do my best to give a measured, logical and polite response to the various outright falsehoods that have been spoken, as well as the otherwise questionable assertions that are being tossed around.
“Zimmy is talking about platonic love.”
Unfortunately, all signs point to “no,” fellows. If you reread the comic then you have to note that Zimmy specifically rejects Annie's attempt to categorize her feelings as, “caring a lot.” Instead she feels it necessary to declare that she loves her, which is something that only a person in romantic love would do. If someone said that you cared a lot about your best friend or a family member, would you bother to clarify it as being “love,” much less refute the assertion of “caring a lot?” No, not likely.
“Zimmy doesn't love Gamma, except in a twisted, narcissistic form of it because she considers Gamma a glorified extra appendage.”
A little more feasible, but still no. Once again looking at the comic, take note of her declaration that she would kill everyone else in the world and herself if Gamma asked. When it comes to that kind of narcissistic love, the individual will only “love” the other as long as they are doing what the individual wants and, more importantly, the individual will never hurt themselves for the other. And, before anyone tries to point out that Zimmy could not really mean what she's saying, it should be noted that everything Zimmy said in that comic are as truthful as any statement out of a human being's mouth can possibly be. The emotionality of her outburst and the stress she's under makes it very unlikely that she even has the rationale in that moment to lie; there's a reason that, in legal proceedings, excited utterances are exceptions to normal hearsay rules; nor does she really have any reason to do so. Zimmy has shown scarcely little care for what Annie thinks of her, nor nearly enough cunning to try and manipulate her with such an outburst.
“Zimmy is too mentally unbalanced to love anyone.”
First of all, who the hell are you to be making judgments about who is capable of love and who isn't? Are you a professor of psychology, or a licensed practitioner? Even if you are, I'm quite certain you haven't actually talked to Zimmy herself and asked the questions necessary to make that sort of determination, what with her being fictional and all. The fact is that almost no psychological disorder makes it, clinically, impossible to love. It just makes it extremely difficult to do so. And, that aside, Zimmy isn't much more unbalanced than your average teenager from a hard life background. Plenty angry, sure, and more than a little hostile but that's more likely a product of the environment she grew up in rather than psychosis.
“It's sick to talk about this, they're thirteen-fourteen years old.”
Alright, let me give all of you out there who apparently based your understanding of lesbians entirely on porn a quick, crash course. Lesbians are no more or less sexually active than any given straight person. And once again, before anyone tries to point out that straight children in their age group have plenty of sex these days, I have something for you to consider. If you apply that logic universally then it is no more okay for Kat to have had her brief relationship with Alistair. I'll just give you a quick paragraph break to digest that.
Anyone who still wants to complain about that aspect of the question should admit their homophobia and excuse themselves from the debate. Now, with that out of the way I would like to further point out that, regardless of whether or not they are diddling one another or not, Tom has neither an obligation to state that fact nor to depict the actual act within the comic if they are. So, that being the case, you have only your own imagination to take grievance with if that's where the presence of an underaged girl who is attracted to other girls takes you.
“Zimmy lies to Gamma.”
In this case the first thing you should keep in mind is that it's quite possible that was not intentional. Zimmy and Gamma communicate primarily through telepathy and it is more than possible then that Gamma simply “hears” Zimmy's immediate thoughts before she even has any time to think them through. Given Zimmy's observed nature it's understandable that she would have a very negative reaction to things she considers threatening to herself or Gamma. Really, what would your first thought be to a question like that, asking about how your friend is a year or two older than you but still in your class? The natural assumption there for almost anyone is that they were held back, which is generally equated in people's minds to stupidity. And ultimately, even if the lies are intentional, they are most likely not malicious. Zimmy doesn't tell them because she wants to make Gamma feel bad but rather because she afraid to lose her, so she makes other people seem less appealing as friendship prospects. Certain a poor move, but more than forgivable.
So, in summation, stop trying to explain this away as anything other than what it is: Zimmy is in love with Gamma. Whether Gamma feels the same way, however, remains to be seen. Thanks much for your time, and you folks have a lovely evening.
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Post by Count Casimir on Oct 4, 2008 4:36:34 GMT
So, in summation, stop trying to explain this away as anything other than what it is: Zimmy is in love with Gamma. Whether Gamma feels the same way, however, remains to be seen. Thanks much for your time, and you folks have a lovely evening. You are wrong. Or, to be less of a dick about it, I believe you are jumping to major conclusions with flawed reasoning. You've done a good job of clarifying small things that Zimmy says. The problem is in your conclusions; your actually somewhat condescending be-all-and-end-all statement that yours is the only possible truth is incorrect. All of your arguments after the first deal well enough with refuting those italicized list points; however, the attempt to tie them together with your first statement is flat out wrong, making your whole theory fall a bit flat: Instead she feels it necessary to declare that she loves her, which is something that only a person in romantic love would do. If someone said that you cared a lot about your best friend or a family member, would you bother to clarify it as being “love,” much less refute the assertion of “caring a lot?” No, not likely. The exact quote is, "Care about 'er? I love her!" She is in no way refuting the statement, "You care about her a lot, don't you?" She is in fact embellishing it in the midst of an emotionally charged fist-flying tantrum. Now, IN MY EXPERIENCE, "caring" about someone is a weak way of saying you love someone, be it platonic OR romantic. It IS likely that I would clarify my feelings as "love" in either situation, should it arise. That's just me; however, I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who feels that way, and saying that "only a person in romantic love" could possibly say that is a mistake. I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it any time this comes up; I'M NOT SURE. Either of the two situations concering Zimmy and Gamma (that is, romantic or platonic love) is possible; however, if it even matters in the long run, then we don't have enough information to decide. Tom has surprised me numerous times before and I can guarantee he'll do it again. I have learned not to speculate on things that don't immediately matter in this comic, because if it's important that we know what's going on it will be made clear to us. Sit back, everyone, and enjoy this storyteller's tale. This forum was made for discussion, not war. I apologize profusely if this is classified as a rant. I think this is actually my longest post on this forum ever. :P EDITSIES: And I just realized that I've destroyed my resolution to take this whole deal less seriously. Sorry all.
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elpis
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by elpis on Oct 4, 2008 8:43:43 GMT
I don't see why you're apologizing for that as I feel that sensible debate is always preferable to random scattered arguing with no basis or logic. In fact, I am pleased to have received such a well-thought out response and I feel little need to argue the point further other than making a clarification. I did not mean to imply that such is universally the case, though I suppose I did make it seem like that by asking the reader for their own feelings on the matter. Regardless, I do feel in this case that Zimmy is not really the type that would throw around a so-called, "loaded word," like love without meaning it in the context I am suggesting.
All the same, I'm happy to politely agree to disagree as I have no issue with your stance. I only felt the need to speak up because I was seeing far too many individuals making excuses for why it had to be anything other than what it likely is. Your more moderate stance of waiting for more information is ultimately fine with me, even if I feel fine with predicting half of the light at the end of the tunnel now. That is ultimately the nature of being a reasonable human being, no, to accept that just because someone believes differently than you does not mean they are wrong? One way or the other, thank you for the response.
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Neon
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by Neon on Oct 4, 2008 12:03:07 GMT
Hey Elpis, you're awesome.
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Post by Yeagger on Oct 4, 2008 15:27:09 GMT
Hey Elpis, you're awesome. I second this.
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Post by Count Casimir on Oct 4, 2008 17:17:42 GMT
Thanks, man. Reasonableness (I may have just made up a new word) is always well appreciated. Thanks for your stance.
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Post by inhumandecency on Oct 5, 2008 9:55:35 GMT
Some psychologists argue that the platonic / romantic-sexual distinction doesn't cover everything. Lisa Diamond reports on entirely heterosexual women who describe feelings towards a female friend that sound in every respect like romantic love (she makes your heart race, you can't stop thinking about her, you'd kill everyone in the world for her...), except that there's no physical attraction. That sounds like a reasonable description of Zimmy and Gamma's relationship, for those who don't think there's good evidence that they're lovers. Lisa Diamond's web page -- she's pretty cool www.psych.utah.edu/people/faculty/diamond/
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Post by etcetera on Oct 5, 2008 15:14:34 GMT
I want you to stop and think for a moment. All of you. Who are you trying to convince? Reading this thread I get the impression that every single one of you got the right idea of the special relationship between Z and G. Nobody ever said "Oh my god they are so going to **** and then they have *** with ******* on *********** and then they play twing twang!!1!" So please let this topic rest in peace because we already know what you are going to say.
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Post by Midnight Meadows on Oct 5, 2008 18:30:07 GMT
and then they play twing twang!!1! hahahahahah oh wow... was that a Heavenly Sword reference I just saw there? You sir, are awesome.
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elpis
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by elpis on Oct 6, 2008 4:22:24 GMT
I want you to stop and think for a moment. All of you. Who are you trying to convince? Reading this thread I get the impression that every single one of you got the right idea of the special relationship between Z and G. Nobody ever said "Oh my god they are so going to **** and then they have *** with ******* on *********** and then they play twing twang!!1!" So please let this topic rest in peace because we already know what you are going to say. Interesting. Last time I looked, I was fairly certain the forum's name was very much indicative of its purpose, that being discussion. I guess I must have just missed the memo noting it had been changed to cater to your attention span. As I noted above, I feel that thoughtful, reasonable debate always has a place in any setting so I see no reason why this thread cannot continue on into infinity so long as people are still interested in discussing the matter and are willing to remain civil in going about it. I have no personal stake in the matter, however, because I never intended to convince anyone of anything. I stated my reason for posting at the very beginning, that I wanted to speak my piece while I had the chance and I have done so. I just felt it necessary to respond here because I was unwilling to say nothing and let you believe I was acquiescing to your will. My apologies, but I can be very adversarial like that.
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Post by etcetera on Oct 6, 2008 8:50:32 GMT
In retrospect I think I overreacted a bit. Sorry about that, it doesn't happen often to me, but I just had to let it out someway. etc.
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Post by illusionist on Oct 6, 2008 12:03:09 GMT
Nonsense. If you were unreasonable, so were all the people who called the shippers perverts and complained about things that didn't happen.
Midnight meadows, I'm looking at you and your little rant about masturbation.
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Post by Midnight Meadows on Oct 6, 2008 23:54:11 GMT
Midnight meadows, I'm looking at you I stand by what I said. Learn to deal with it. I think everyone has already gotten their thoughts out on this particular page so there's really no point in beating the proverbial dead horse anymore, is there? There are new pages to talk about and some very interesting revelations from them.
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