yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on May 13, 2021 1:22:27 GMT
Ah yes, a synthetic love potion is much more likely than a woman in a long distance relationship cheating on her boyfriend with someone who is making her feel special by opening up to her in a way she hasn't seen him open up to others.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 13, 2021 1:24:27 GMT
I think the main ingredients in the love potion were boredom and hormones.
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Post by maxptc on May 13, 2021 2:02:25 GMT
Ah yes, a synthetic love potion is much more likely than a woman in a long distance relationship cheating on her boyfriend with someone who is making her feel special by opening up to her in a way she hasn't seen him open up to others. But the guy is awkward and distant and was mean to his daughter for a bit years later. So obviously Surma can't have loved him nor can anyone ever and I don't know anything that could counter that. |
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Post by faiiry on May 13, 2021 3:13:10 GMT
Surma may very well have been the first person his age outside of Donny to actually get the opportunity to know Tony and give him a chance. That being said, while I still can’t exactly see why Surma fell in love with Tony, I can very easily see why Tony fell in love with Surma. No wonder he became devoted to her. And then he lost her, which is even more heartbreaking to me in context now. I might be stating the obvious here, but I think the insight this chapter has given into Tony and Surma’s relationship specifically is pretty eye opening.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 13, 2021 3:31:37 GMT
...while I still can’t exactly see why Surma fell in love with Tony... I'm tellin' you guys, back then there was no cellphone service that deep in the jungle, probably no internet even for the Court and it wasn't as entertaining as it is today, likely limited tv or radio if any at all, plus probable bad reception in a foreign language. If you guys have never tried it, go a few days completely unplugged. No electric lights in the jungle so it gets very very dark and unsafe, so not much wandering after sunset. If they didn't have a set schedule then after they adjusted they'd likely wake up at dawn, go to sleep a bit after sunset, sleep four hours, wake again and be bored for a while, then sleep until dawn. That's why seeing some slugs going at it was a fascinating and ultimately life-altering experience they shared. I've gone unplugged for extended periods a few times; once I went a few months without and was completely entranced by the first thing I saw when I got back and saw a screen again... a rerun of Wheel of Fortune. Could barely tear my eyes from it. |
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Post by rafk on May 13, 2021 7:25:54 GMT
Ah yes, a synthetic love potion is much more likely than a woman in a long distance relationship cheating on her boyfriend with someone who is making her feel special by opening up to her in a way she hasn't seen him open up to others. But the guy is awkward and distant and was mean to his daughter for a bit years later. So obviously Surma can't have loved him nor can anyone ever and I don't know anything that could counter that. "mean to his daughter for a bit" is underselling it by a lot. Obviously a number of people have seen "alone with Anthony without being Annie" Anthony and can understand that he's a charming intelligent guy under those circumstances so it's not true that nobody in the Court could understand how Surma could love Anthony. But being awkward around others does not excuse Anthony abandoning his daughter for years without a word; being so harsh to her at all times that she's pathetically eager to grab any hint of approval from him and has huge issues about being stupid and inadequate; driving her to a point she mentally divided herself in her head into a split personality because she was having so much trouble coping, and cutting herself off from her friends and other support mechanisms; and making no on screen effort to ever apologise to Annie for any of it, or to have his apologies or an explanation or a single comforting word relayed to Annie by others. He intellectually knows he has this condition that makes him act badly to her and did nothing to mitigate the effect. At least from what we've seen on screen, he didn't even use the ability to talk properly with one Annie to apologise or explain how he'd acted previously. And by now it would be very cheap to come in and reveal hey, he actually did apologise and explain off screen months ago (especially since it wasn't reflected at all in Annie's behaviour). |
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Post by aline on May 13, 2021 9:54:18 GMT
Look guys, the fact that Tony was an a**** to his daughter when he first came back and the fact that he now has social anxiety around her are NOT one and the same. The harm inflicted is not the same!
Yes, he abandoned her for years with no intention to return, then when he did return he went all control freak mode, this was abusive and terrible. He was harsh with her, critical, he shut her down when she worried about him. I hated that!
But although we have not seen the deep heartfelt apology many people here want to see, he has stopped doing all that. Where he once barked at her "Is it your business?", he now very much invites her into his private life. He is obviously going out of his way to share more with her (symbolized when he lets her help him with his hand). He displays deep trust towards her, and confidence in her skills. She told him she had freed Jeanne and opened the door to a Forest invasion and he didn't even scold her, he considered the new information without casting doubt on her judgment.
There are many ways to show someone you love them, is what I'm getting at. Being anxious or nervous doesn't prove love or lack of love, it just proves anxiety. And that's not abusive in itself. Right now he's not lashing out at her or being mean to her, he's just jumpy and unable to relax and small talk. That's not abuse.
When you are in a relationship with someone who has a mental illness, trauma, or is neurodivergent in some capacity, you might well be in a situation where some of the standard messages of love are not possible. Hugs may be out of the question, for example. But because the feelings are there, you work it out, you find ways to work around it, you build different kinds of bridges. That's what both Tony and Annie are trying to do right now. It doesn't happen overnight, it's a process, and it demands a lot knowledge of oneself and of the other precisely because those bridges are not the standard issue ones.
I agree it would be an issue if only Annie were adapting to this situation but it's a blatant lie to say Tony isn't. He obviously is working towards a better relationship with his daughter. His conversation with Jones indicates he plans to keep doing that.
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laaaa
Full Member
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Post by laaaa on May 13, 2021 10:00:04 GMT
Look guys, the fact that Tony was an a**** to his daughter when he first came back and the fact that he now has social anxiety around her are NOT one and the same. The harm inflicted is not the same! Yes, he abandoned her for years with no intention to return, then when he did return he went all control freak mode, this was abusive and terrible. He was harsh with her, critical, he shut her down when she worried about him. I hated that! But although we have not seen the deep heartfelt apology many people here want to see, he has stopped doing all that. Where he once barked at her "Is it your business?", he now very much invites her into his private life. He is obviously going out of his way to share more with her (symbolized when he lets her help him with his hand). He displays deep trust towards her, and confidence in her skills. She told him she had freed Jeanne and opened the door to a Forest invasion and he didn't even scold her, he considered the new information without casting doubt on her judgment. There are many ways to show someone you love them, is what I'm getting at. Being anxious or nervous doesn't prove love or lack of love, it just proves anxiety. And that's not abusive in itself. Right now he's not lashing out at her or being mean to her, he's just jumpy and unable to relax and small talk. That's not abuse. When you are in a relationship with someone who has a mental illness, trauma, or is neurodivergent in some capacity, you might well be in a situation where some of the standard messages of love are not possible. Hugs may be out of the question, for example. But because the feelings are there, you work it out, you find ways to work around it, you build different kinds of bridges. That's what both Tony and Annie are trying to do right now. It doesn't happen overnight, it's a process, and it demands a lot knowledge of oneself and of the other precisely because those bridges are not the standard issue ones. I agree it would be an issue if only Annie were adapting to this situation but it's a blatant lie to say Tony isn't. He obviously is working towards a better relationship with his daughter. His conversation with Jones indicates he plans to keep doing that. I think you put it together perfectly. |
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Post by rafk on May 13, 2021 10:57:52 GMT
Look guys, the fact that Tony was an a**** to his daughter when he first came back and the fact that he now has social anxiety around her are NOT one and the same. The harm inflicted is not the same! Yes, he abandoned her for years with no intention to return, then when he did return he went all control freak mode, this was abusive and terrible. He was harsh with her, critical, he shut her down when she worried about him. I hated that! But although we have not seen the deep heartfelt apology many people here want to see, he has stopped doing all that. Where he once barked at her "Is it your business?", he now very much invites her into his private life. He is obviously going out of his way to share more with her (symbolized when he lets her help him with his hand). He displays deep trust towards her, and confidence in her skills. She told him she had freed Jeanne and opened the door to a Forest invasion and he didn't even scold her, he considered the new information without casting doubt on her judgment. There are many ways to show someone you love them, is what I'm getting at. Being anxious or nervous doesn't prove love or lack of love, it just proves anxiety. And that's not abusive in itself. Right now he's not lashing out at her or being mean to her, he's just jumpy and unable to relax and small talk. That's not abuse. When you are in a relationship with someone who has a mental illness, trauma, or is neurodivergent in some capacity, you might well be in a situation where some of the standard messages of love are not possible. Hugs may be out of the question, for example. But because the feelings are there, you work it out, you find ways to work around it, you build different kinds of bridges. That's what both Tony and Annie are trying to do right now. It doesn't happen overnight, it's a process, and it demands a lot knowledge of oneself and of the other precisely because those bridges are not the standard issue ones. I agree it would be an issue if only Annie were adapting to this situation but it's a blatant lie to say Tony isn't. He obviously is working towards a better relationship with his daughter. His conversation with Jones indicates he plans to keep doing that. Just before the Loup incident. Since then we know by his own admission and the discussions between the Annies how he's treated the two versions of Annie, and the one he mentally considered real Annie was still treated badly. I'm not real interested in arguing degrees of bad treatment. If he's improving it is not by a lot other than that hey, at least he's not abandoning Annie anymore which is the start of things. His conversation with Jones? Is it really that far from his conversation with Donald after he returned except with insight gained from the unique situation of two Annies? Tony is not stupid and he's not completely non functional in society. There's never been a great (or, really, any lexplanation for why someone like him can't do any more to help his own child understand that she isn't the stupid failure who doesn't deserve his love that he must know he constantly makes her feel like, and that the way he acts towards her is on him, not her. |
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Post by fia on May 13, 2021 13:30:35 GMT
Methinks these forumites claiming it doesn't make sense that Surma fell in love with Tony doth protest too much.
Has no one ever dated someone their friends thought wasn't cool or hot or whatever?? In my experience most people other than oneself rarely grok why one likes who one likes, and that's all well and good, if we all fell in love exclusively with publicly charming McHotties then I'm sure half of us would never have a date. And I would probably never have had ANY of the relationships I have had.
My husband and I both have difficult families and we have MANY wonderful qualities, few of which show up around them. So they each think our choice in partner doesn't make sense. But it's that they don't see the whole dimension of our relationship or personality at all. I actually think our relationship is pretty dang healthy compared to the ones they each have had (with one or two exceptions).
Think of it this way – if you're a goose, you love water, and if you meet a goose in the water you'll think they're amazing and elegant. But if you meet a goose trying to cross a street they'll be awkward and angry and they'll honk at you and walk funny and you might hate them because they're scary.
We are not the same across every circumstance and you know what that's OK.
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Post by maxptc on May 13, 2021 13:34:13 GMT
But the guy is awkward and distant and was mean to his daughter for a bit years later. So obviously Surma can't have loved him nor can anyone ever and I don't know anything that could counter that. "mean to his daughter for a bit" is underselling it by a lot. Obviously a number of people have seen "alone with Anthony without being Annie" Anthony and can understand that he's a charming intelligent guy under those circumstances so it's not true that nobody in the Court could understand how Surma could love Anthony. But being awkward around others does not excuse Anthony abandoning his daughter for years without a word; being so harsh to her at all times that she's pathetically eager to grab any hint of approval from him and has huge issues about being stupid and inadequate; driving her to a point she mentally divided herself in her head into a split personality because she was having so much trouble coping, and cutting herself off from her friends and other support mechanisms; and making no on screen effort to ever apologise to Annie for any of it, or to have his apologies or an explanation or a single comforting word relayed to Annie by others. He intellectually knows he has this condition that makes him act badly to her and did nothing to mitigate the effect. At least from what we've seen on screen, he didn't even use the ability to talk properly with one Annie to apologise or explain how he'd acted previously. And by now it would be very cheap to come in and reveal hey, he actually did apologise and explain off screen months ago (especially since it wasn't reflected at all in Annie's behaviour). I will admit to understating Tony and Annie's relationship, it was intentional. I don't wanna get back into the whole "How bad and what was bad in practicular" Tony conversation, but I obviously don't think Tony actions are nearly as severe as others do, I really do think "mean" is closer to the truth then "abusive"(neither is right, more nuanced imo), so I understate his impact for effect sometimes. I state it that way because 1.Im kinda of a jerk 2.I feel the people calling Tony abusive and still holding the "Surma can't have loved him" position as equally off the mark or intentionally seeing him one dimensionally. Especially the Surma thing, we had an entire chapter about it. I get the Tony sucks side and think he messed up big. I just don't agree with the level of severity of his mistake or the added implications some have landed on because of those actions. |
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Post by fia on May 13, 2021 13:38:00 GMT
Okay wait I had to think about this, like what's the best metaphor for Tony going by the goose crossing the street metric.
I think Tony in a domestic / paternal environment is maybe like a foreign exchange student visiting a secondary school and taking classes with younger kids than them. Everything's too different! It's stressful! How do you talk to people, everything you say is a translation. You learned about this in your classes but somehow it doesn't come out right when you're actually there. And no one is your age so you have to be careful what to talk about. Super awkward. They all think you're a big weird lump and you try to make yourself as small as possible but you still say stuff that doesn't go down well so you can't hide.
But when you get in a room alone with a good friend from home you can be more normal and less awkward for a bit.
See I typed all that out and I just made myself anxious. Oof.
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Post by alevice on May 13, 2021 13:51:03 GMT
Of all the crap I can throw at Tony's parenthood, I don't think he was a bad husband. Even the lone time they spent unplugged, while it might have helped hook them both up, it wouldn't have mattered long term if they didnt have a solid relationship post honeymoon phase.
Tony was there for Surma, unlike James who was more of a medieval knight only being around for short lapses before dissapearing again due to training/whatever, and seems to be definitely the jealous and potentially abusive type (definitely showing his strenght to overwhelm Tony didnt help).
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Post by aline on May 13, 2021 14:49:40 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1915Just before the Loup incident. Since then we know by his own admission and the discussions between the Annies how he's treated the two versions of Annie, and the one he mentally considered real Annie was still treated badly. That's after the incident you mentioned. Shortly before that he asks her to come live with him. Then: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2075The man has obviously decided direct compliments are in order since then. Again, I don't deny he has treated Annie badly. I deny that he's not making efforts to change. Again, and this is my entire point, social anxiety is not "treating someone badly". This: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2387is not "treating someone badly". He is trying to tell her about what he's doing but... brain won't cooperate. He is not doing anything to make her feel bad, he's not doing or saying anything that could be remotely constructed as mean. He's just failing at small talk. |
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Post by faiiry on May 13, 2021 17:24:23 GMT
For my part, I don’t not understand Surma’s love for Tony because he’s “not cool and hot.” I still don’t understand because from my point of view, the chapter explaining their romance displayed little chemistry or anything they have in common besides the ability to be mildly friendly with one another. I still don’t understand why Surma was attracted to him or fell in love with him, but I look forward to this being explored further in the comic, because I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the flashbacks.
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Post by mitten on May 13, 2021 17:41:32 GMT
For my part, I don’t not understand Surma’s love for Tony because he’s “not cool and hot.” I still don’t understand because from my point of view, the chapter explaining their romance displayed little chemistry or anything they have in common besides the ability to be mildly friendly with one another. I still don’t understand why Surma was attracted to him or fell in love with him, but I look forward to this being explored further in the comic, because I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the flashbacks. Well, Tony is highly intelligent, and I can imagine he is very interesting to talk to in a one-on-one situation, where he also gets to display a sense of humour. Those are traits I personally find important when it comes to attraction, so I can definitely see it. Also, I kind of got the impression that at least in his younger days he was fairly physically attractive, if not in the muscular way James was. Brinnie did have a crush on him too, and I don't think she ever saw the more personable side of him. |
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Post by saardvark on May 13, 2021 17:56:03 GMT
For my part, I don’t not understand Surma’s love for Tony because he’s “not cool and hot.” I still don’t understand because from my point of view, the chapter explaining their romance displayed little chemistry or anything they have in common besides the ability to be mildly friendly with one another. I still don’t understand why Surma was attracted to him or fell in love with him, but I look forward to this being explored further in the comic, because I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the flashbacks. well, he's a decent looking guy, if not a muscular hunk-type like Sir Eggs. But on their trip to the jungle, Surma learns... he's thoughtful and considerate www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1873knows some beautiful places www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1874complements her hard work, is a alot more easy-going and convivial when one-on-one www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1876is involved in (possibly) exciting secret court work www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1877is interested in her abilities www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1878is funny www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1880caring and sympathetic www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1881is a good cook www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1882makes a mean cuppa joe www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1883patient www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1886understanding of her quirks www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1892www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1893observant (and complementary again!) www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1894all taken together, all these good traits quite changed her mind about Tony... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1897so I guess I can see it, though its certainly an odd match on its surface! |
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Post by pyradonis on May 13, 2021 19:17:16 GMT
For my part, I don’t not understand Surma’s love for Tony because he’s “not cool and hot.” I still don’t understand because from my point of view, the chapter explaining their romance displayed little chemistry or anything they have in common besides the ability to be mildly friendly with one another. I still don’t understand why Surma was attracted to him or fell in love with him, but I look forward to this being explored further in the comic, because I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the flashbacks. I remember different people saying this about "Get Lost!", that they did not see any chemistry or similar between Surma and Tony. I would like to know, are there better examples in this comic? I am genuinely curious, because I do not understand much about romance, flirting etc. and in a medium like a comic I am basically dependent on visual cues like smiles, blushing, depicted daydreams etc. to recognize "Aha! There is romance in the air! This person is attracted to that person!" So to me the chapter did not seem worse at portraying romance than any other instance in the comic. I can imagine this famous chemistry is something one either feels or not, that is why I am specifically asking for other examples to compare in the same medium. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 14, 2021 0:27:09 GMT
Anthony and Surma falling in love on their mission to the jungle In My Humble Opinion can be viewed as a variation of the old romance novel "stranded on a desert island alone together" trope. Just in case I checked tvtropes to see if they had a handy list of media but they once again proved useless. Samaritan Relationship Starter was the closest I could find, as Surma went as a favor in the first place when Anja couldn't go, but that's just not that close. There may be something hiding under the broader Rescue Romance trope since the isolation and environment really allowed Anthony to demonstrate competence and dependability... but I don't think so. Goodreads, on the other hand, lists 68 books with the old desert island love story, though the only one I recognize is The Blue Lagoon and I only saw the movie. It wasn't that great.
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Post by faiiry on May 14, 2021 3:55:34 GMT
For my part, I don’t not understand Surma’s love for Tony because he’s “not cool and hot.” I still don’t understand because from my point of view, the chapter explaining their romance displayed little chemistry or anything they have in common besides the ability to be mildly friendly with one another. I still don’t understand why Surma was attracted to him or fell in love with him, but I look forward to this being explored further in the comic, because I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the flashbacks. well, he's a decent looking guy, if not a muscular hunk-type like Sir Eggs. But on their trip to the jungle, Surma learns... he's thoughtful and considerate www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1873knows some beautiful places www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1874complements her hard work, is a alot more easy-going and convivial when one-on-one www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1876is involved in (possibly) exciting secret court work www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1877is interested in her abilities www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1878is funny www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1880caring and sympathetic www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1881is a good cook www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1882makes a mean cuppa joe www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1883patient www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1886understanding of her quirks www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1892www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1893observant (and complementary again!) www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1894all taken together, all these good traits quite changed her mind about Tony... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1897so I guess I can see it, though its certainly an odd match on its surface! Honestly, I may just be reading the comic the wrong way somehow, because when you put it like this, it makes a lot more sense. I feel a little silly. When you list all these reasons together, it does present a logical whole as to why she fell for him. I genuinely kind of get it now. Edit; Forgot to ever mention that I interpreted the biggest factor in her attraction to be the fact that Surma was in a lonely, isolating long-distance relationship and was probably desperate for a nice boy to stick around and show genuine interest in her. Not that it’s James’ fault—just saying that this is the part of the situation I understand most easily. |
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Post by saardvark on May 14, 2021 4:06:36 GMT
Honestly, I may just be reading the comic the wrong way somehow, because when you put it like this, it makes a lot more sense. I feel a little silly. When you list all these reasons together, it does present a logical whole as to why she fell for him. I genuinely kind of get it now. Edit; Forgot to ever mention that I interpreted the biggest factor in her attraction to be the fact that Surma was in a lonely, isolating long-distance relationship and was probably desperate for a nice boy to stick around and show genuine interest in her. Not that it’s James’ fault—just saying that this is the part of the situation I understand most easily. Im sure that was part of it too! Considerate, kind, attentive, interested, and yes, kinda good looking Tony was there and being nice, while her errant-knight-boyfriend was off training somewhere, abandoning, neglecting, ignoring.... |
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Post by maxptc on May 14, 2021 4:27:29 GMT
Forgot to ever mention that I interpreted the biggest factor in her attraction to be the fact that Surma was in a lonely, isolating long-distance relationship and was probably desperate for a nice boy to stick around and show genuine interest in her. Not that it’s James’ fault—just saying that this is the part of the situation I understand most easily. You might not be wrong, its hard to say what the main factor was. Just like it's hard to say if the break up was or wasn't James and or Surmas fault. We know about the long trips making Surma lonely, but honestly this shouldn't be an insurmountable issue as seen by Parley and Smitty. We really don't know much about Surma/James relationship aside from James thinking it was great until Tony stole Surma, and while I get why he thinks that, it's shown to be not the full truth. Sometime things just happen and people fall in or out of love/attraction without a huge or main catalyst, just lots of little ones, which is what I personally think happened. But again, we know little about either relationship. We don't even know how serious Surma was about James (relationships aren't always seen the same by both parties). Aside from them loving each other we have very little insight into how Tony and Surma functioned as well. |
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Post by rafk on May 14, 2021 6:18:41 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1915Just before the Loup incident. Since then we know by his own admission and the discussions between the Annies how he's treated the two versions of Annie, and the one he mentally considered real Annie was still treated badly. That's after the incident you mentioned. Shortly before that he asks her to come live with him. Then: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2075The man has obviously decided direct compliments are in order since then. Again, I don't deny he has treated Annie badly. I deny that he's not making efforts to change. Again, and this is my entire point, social anxiety is not "treating someone badly". This: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2387is not "treating someone badly". He is trying to tell her about what he's doing but... brain won't cooperate. He is not doing anything to make her feel bad, he's not doing or saying anything that could be remotely constructed as mean. He's just failing at small talk. 2075 was specifically an example of how he was able to act properly to ONE version of Annie (leaving the other to be like "he never does that to me!"). In 2001 he is speaking to Eglamore. Annie is not there to hear Tony saying something good about her. And the best 3rd one you can come up with is an example of awkward small talk where he isn't actively hating her to her face? He's her father and his daughter is having to try and disguise herself to try and hear one nice word from him ever out of the months they've lived together. Fantastic! The actual best moment he's had is inviting her to live with him on her return from the Forest. But even that's like 'he's her father, he's been back at the Court for how long now, and that's the best. I mean, many abusers intersperse their abusive moments with being lovely and wonderful to the victim not merely less awkward, it doesn't make up for it. I hope that Annie as a character has the realisation she doesn't need her father to fix his shit up and show her affection or approval to be confident in herself; that she can accept he HAS wronged her and that it's not her fault; that the message isn't being sent here that a child should happily tolerate this from a parent, that Tony has done enough that he should have our sympathies. |
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Post by 0o0f on May 14, 2021 6:39:47 GMT
I remember different people saying this about "Get Lost!", that they did not see any chemistry or similar between Surma and Tony. I would like to know, are there better examples in this comic? I am genuinely curious, because I do not understand much about romance, flirting etc. and in a medium like a comic I am basically dependent on visual cues like smiles, blushing, depicted daydreams etc. to recognize "Aha! There is romance in the air! This person is attracted to that person!" So to me the chapter did not seem worse at portraying romance than any other instance in the comic. I can imagine this famous chemistry is something one either feels or not, that is why I am specifically asking for other examples to compare in the same medium. Honestly, I think when it comes to fictional portrayals of romance, whether characters have chemistry or not is rather subjective, and depends a lot on the audience's own preferences. So if they are put off by a character or relationship dynamic, they might be less inclined to see chemistry there. |
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laaaa
Full Member
Posts: 247
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Post by laaaa on May 14, 2021 7:35:38 GMT
I mean, many abusers intersperse their abusive moments with being lovely and wonderful to the victim not merely less awkward, it doesn't make up for it. I'd like to point out that the interchange between lovely-horrible behavior of abusers that you mention here is typically behavior of people with narkissistic/antisocial/borderline/histrionic personality disorders, and it's either a calculated manipulation tactic to draw someone close and make them dependent to the abuser (and in this case the abuser is usually pretty much untreatable and never improves) or a result of extreme emotion unbalance, as in, the abuser screams to their friend and call them the worst scum of earth, and next hour tells them they are perfect angels (in this case the abuser needs lifelong medication and therapy to TRY to balance their emotions). This is very much NOT what is happening here. The extremes of the lovely-horrible behavior in abuse are not present in Tony's actions. If he was capable of that level of manipulation I guarantee to you that the norm would not be "everyone hates my dad" but "everyone loves my dad". Annie would try to seek help and no one would believe her. "Not your dad, he's so kind. He'd never do that to you. You are overreacting. You must be mistaken. You have to understand where he's coming from. You need to try more." The abuse would happen behind closed doors. Only Englamore would hate Tony, and Tony would hate him back and try to remove him from the Court and his life. That doesn't mean that abuse only ever happens behind closed doors, but abusers who are capable of manipulating their victims' emotions like that and alter their behavior (instead of being an all-purpose jerk) are much more likely to be sneaky about it. Also, in cases of cold-blooded manipulation, the abuser is pretty much guaranteed to never even attempt to alter their behavior or take any responsibility. That would mean that Tony's tears in front of Donny was an act, that his efforts to change his behavior to Annie are actually part of a bigger scheme to pretend to be a good dad only to crush her at the worst possible moment etc. Part of why I am incapable of seeing Tony as an abuser is because I know perfectly well how bad abusers can get, how manipulative, how cruel, how domineering, how much they can seclude their victims from support etc. Tony was definitely neglectful but it just does not compare (that's the way I see it, at least). |
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Post by pyradonis on May 14, 2021 12:36:09 GMT
Forgot to ever mention that I interpreted the biggest factor in her attraction to be the fact that Surma was in a lonely, isolating long-distance relationship and was probably desperate for a nice boy to stick around and show genuine interest in her. Not that it’s James’ fault—just saying that this is the part of the situation I understand most easily. You might not be wrong, its hard to say what the main factor was. Just like it's hard to say if the break up was or wasn't James and or Surmas fault. We know about the long trips making Surma lonely, but honestly this shouldn't be an insurmountable issue as seen by Parley and Smitty. To be fair, Smitty is kind of a wimp. If having been bullied by Parley for months before she claimed to be in love with him wasn't an insurmountable issue for him, then her being away often for training shouldn't be one either.
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Post by aline on May 14, 2021 13:53:55 GMT
2075 was specifically an example of how he was able to act properly to ONE version of Annie (leaving the other to be like "he never does that to me!"). What are you talking about? He's complimenting Court Annie on this page, and the one he has the easiest relationship with is Forest Annie, the other one (although it only starts a little later when they're at home) |
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Post by silicondream on May 15, 2021 5:03:51 GMT
And on another note how many incarnations of this exact fire spirit d'you think Jones has had the pleasure of staring blankly at while they talk about feelings and stuff. I figure sometimes the conversation didn't go so well, other times they just cuddled.
So I'm picturing this unholy union of dude and literal actual fire happened somewhere back in ye olde medieval times (when folks had naught else to do but seduce fire, natch) Yeah, I've often wondered about the historical timing of that. Although I figure it would more likely be a dudette, or other be-uterused person, to kick off the biological cycle. A Vestal Virgin, maybe? Or a red-headed Mary, stumbling out of a burning stable with a child in her arms and Joseph's ashes on her feet? On the gripping hand, it might be alchemically appropriate to have it happen during the Renaissance, when Paracelsus and Agrippa were popularizing the idea of elementals and a certain abbot was popularizing the idea of swiping right on them. On the knapping hand, fire worship is very old, maybe as old as worship itself, and when you imagine Annie's archetype as a blend of eternal hearthfire and grain goddess...well, we could even be talking about Lucy's old flame. Perhaps Jones sometimes chooses her companions because they might end up loving/befriending a Phoenix. With Eglamore, she almost got it right…. I suppose it makes sense for Annie to say that, because she was recently Annies but is actually one Annie. But is she correct? Dunno. What is truth? All is one if you're observing from far enough away, but self-consciousness is generally founded on atomization. ...okay, I suck at poetry. I would say that, yes, Tony is clearly just a single lump of breathing meat, and Annie is clearly just a single five-dimensional fusion of klepton and fire goddess. But neither of them can function as humans if they see themselves that way. Nor can most of us, really; it's awfully hard to socialize properly without talking to yourself. (...and as I type that I wonder whether anyone's reported purely "internal" aphasia. Nope, no one's mentioned it on Twitter! Research complete.) The "mind cage" part of Tony may not have its own consciousness, but Tom once noted that Annie's Fire probably didn't either. The spiritual side of alchemy is all about opposites-are-a-whole, perfection-through-destruction-and-reunion. Antimony having the alchemical realization about herself first, and then about her father, that's the journey. The opposites are one. Tony just has to catch up. I think it's him who doesn't quite get it yet. I think it's more symmetric than that. Tony had the same realization about Antimony the moment she was born, and that's when the mind cage slammed down for good. He's not about to marry any more opposites, alchemically or otherwise, until his daughter's grown up and living at a safe distance. Of course Annie may have figured that out already too, and I wouldn't be surprised if she decides to move out again soon. Same as with the makeup: you have a right to it, but that doesn't mean you need it. I'd say it takes quite a bit of courage to marry a doomed semi-goddess and then raise her next incarnation whose very presence is psychologically toxic to you, but of course opinions vary. Now that Annie will blithely accept anything Tony gives her as all she can get, with a smile, he truly has no incentive to change or improve. - Annie is born as her mom's near-clone and her dad's personal cognitohazard, kills her mom just by existing, then turns out to have sucked her soul out
- Annie becomes besties with a pack of sometimes-murderous canine deities including her mother's stalker
- Annie fails in school and almost gets exiled for treason
- Annie rescues rage ghosts and cripples the Court's centuries-old defensive system
- Annie's besties fuse into a mad god and only she can negotiate with it
- Annie becomes two Annies, then one Annie again
"Thank god I have no incentive to change," comments Tony, and he's totally wearing this face.
Tony doesn't generally publicize his sacrifices, and most people don't generally want to hear about them. If he dies for Annie, Eglamore will probably stand over the casket and kvetch about how it actually proves he was a self-centered coward. Jones will watch him in arch silence, and Annie will mutter "just ignore him, father" to her new doll. Unrelated to Tony or anything in the comic, but just as a stand alone assertion-- if your parenting has become sub-par, problematic, or negligent, you may very well be abusive depending on the severity. "Abusive" isn't a term limited solely to people who cause harm for fun. Plenty of abusers have experienced abuse or tragedy, or are suffering. You don't have to willfully intend to abuse your child to display abusive behavior, it's not about your intent. That is not how abuse works. Being sorry about it, or having sad a reason for it doesn't make it not abuse. This is true, certainly. And the same is true for parental abuse by children. That said, excessive fear of being abusive can make oneself more vulnerable to abuse, as well as drive codependency and helicopter parenting, so I wouldn't recommend that people be hypervigilant about it--as Tony is, frankly. I think it's best to focus on the effects of your parenting, not on whether it makes you a saint or a sinner. (Leave that job to your children.) For my part, I don’t not understand Surma’s love for Tony because he’s “not cool and hot.” I still don’t understand because from my point of view, the chapter explaining their romance displayed little chemistry or anything they have in common besides the ability to be mildly friendly with one another. Forgive the chiming in, but in a nutshell--one on one, Tony is incredibly attentive and considerate. He could have snapped at Surma for being a poor listener and carelessly signing herself up for the expedition, or he could have tried to shuffle her off to the side so he could get most things done without her (which, speaking as a former field researcher, is what most of us would probably do). Instead he expressed concern, then made it clear that she didn't have to help out but that he'd fully appreciate it and support her if she did. He attended to her comfort, praised her for helping, taught her whatever she wanted to know, and took a lively and genuine interest in the powers that were her chief point of pride. For a lot of people, that's just about everything they could want in a partner. Plus the hawtness, of course--and prior to running his face through a meat grinder plus Zimmy, Tony was very handsome. Saith Tom. But the consideration is the important thing.You can see that in how he treats Juliette and Arthur, and in how he welcomed Forest Annie while supporting and reassuring Court Annie in their first meeting, and even in how he treats Jones. Eglamore is very fond of Jones and complimentary to her, of course, but he has a tendency to treat her like part of the landscape when he's upset or distracted. Which Jones is cool with, because being part of the landscape is her thing, but compare to how Tony looks at her, solicits her opinions, and carefully phrases his language to be most accessible to her. Jones likes analyzing and offering recommendations, but she doesn't like passing judgment or expressing desires, and Tony respects that. He's just extremely kind, much as Don is kind, but he's also enthusiastic where Don tends to be more detached. Which is why it's so maddening for readers to look back and recall the instances where he was, apparently, monstrously unkind to Annie. Are Tony's other kindnesses part of a diabolical ruse? Or does he just abhor Annie so much that a good man becomes an abuser in her presence? Or are he and Annie so systematically mistaken about the world that they can't see the inconsistencies? Or are we so systematically mistaken about their world that we can't see he was right all along? Or is Tom just an uncharacteristically terrible writer when it comes to dads? All options are troubling! (Except of course for the correct option, which is the one I believe, and which is never troubling to me because I am the only perfectly rational person on the Internet. I have a plaque and everything.) |
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Post by silicondream on May 15, 2021 5:08:59 GMT
Continuing, 2075 was specifically an example of how he was able to act properly to ONE version of Annie (leaving the other to be like "he never does that to me!"). Surely you noticed how he was simultaneously talking the Court out of treating the OTHER Annie as a pod person, right? And how the Annies instantly hated each other, so treating either of them kindly automatically offended the other one? Good lord, if there's a manual for more proper behavior than this when your daughter's changeling stumbles out of a haunted forest, please forward me a copy. She heard his initial approval, she was back in time for the end of his argument with Eglamore, and she's not stupid. Annie knows how protective her father is, and there's nothing that matters to her more than being accepted as a peer by him. To discover that he thinks she's competent to handle this situation--unlike literally every other human in the Court, including Kat--is the highest compliment she could possibly receive. Well, let's make the question non-rhetorical. How long had Tony been back at the Court, and when would be the best time for them to move in together? Obviously it would have been a bad idea for her to live with him while he was still quarantining Renard and she was still channeling Carrie, so that gets us through the end of Chapter 57. Chapters 58-61 are Forest/Jeanne stuff and happen almost back to back. By Chapter 62, Annie and Tony were having dinner together. In Chapter 63 he started working with Kat on helping Juliette and Arthur, and within a few days Annie found out about it. In short order (Chapter 65, after the "Get Lost" flashback), Annie started working with them too. Then, in chapter 67, Tony invited her to live with him.
Why, it's as if Tony was trying to gradually restore intimacy between them, while making sure at each step that Annie had a chance to consider, process and consent. Wonder how it worked out that way? a) So do non-abusers, and b) sometimes it does. The victim's perspective actually matters here; plenty of people have tolerated the occasional abusive moment because the overall relationship was worth it at the time. For some, that's almost the definition of family--you put up with each other's crap when no one else would, because you give each other what no one else can. Of course, if you're a concerned party on the outside, you can't always take someone's word for that--especially if they're a child. Which is why I look for things like Annie's increased confidence in herself, and her elevated mood and increased power level, and her academic success, and the fact that she's coping incredibly well with the apparent deaths of Coyote and Ysengrin, and the fact that Tony has never appeared in her Zimmingham. And then I can say, ok, looks like on balance he's been good for her since his return. I'd say she had that realisation before Chapter 1. Unlike her father, lack of confidence has never been one of Annie's failings. Isn't that why most readers came to love her? |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 15, 2021 5:16:42 GMT
So I'm picturing this unholy union of dude and literal actual fire happened somewhere back in ye olde medieval times (when folks had naught else to do but seduce fire, natch) Yeah, I've often wondered about the historical timing of that. Although I figure it would more likely be a dudette, or other be-uterused person, to kick off the biological cycle. A Vestal Virgin, maybe? Or a red-headed Mary, stumbling out of a burning stable with a child in her arms and Joseph's ashes on her feet? Back when people believed in child-bearing as a literal magic power it might not have taken much at all. I don't remember enough of it to look it up, but I read one Eastern European fable where a woman conceived a fire-child because an ember from the fire fell in her lap. I think in that same one she had a second kid with ice-powers because a snowflake fell in her lap later, but I may be mixing my fables up. I do recall that there were no details about the kids' actual delivery, which could have been unpleasant. There have also been a number of stories about witches using magic and their natural ability to bear children to give birth to magical monsters as well as heroes/villains. And then there were those wacky gods... |
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