[2466] That's him as a whole

[Timberwere]

Annie takes the holistic approach.

[laaaa]

That's a pretty wise approach.

[imaginaryfriend]

Here's a link to the page wherein Coyote discusses the three Ysengrins vs. real Ysengrin for comparison purposes (there's some interesting differences).

[madjack]

May 12, 2021 7:11:04 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Here's a link to the page wherein Coyote discusses the three Ysengrins vs. real Ysengrin for comparison purposes (there's some interesting differences).

Now you bring that up, It wouldn't be surprising to find that this helped Annie realise that this may well have been what Coyote meant with regards to Ys.

[madjack]

May 12, 2021 7:23:28 GMT @dameofdiamonds said:

Which page is the last panel from? The one next to "she saw the whole of him..." ? It looks like it was from Get Lost, but Surma and Tony were outside for most of that chapter...

It's both Annies, from the opening page of chapter 73.

[silicondream]

So far as I can recall, this is the first time Annie has ever judged her father on panel--identified anything he's done as "good" or "bad."  That's a huge step.

[blahzor]

Seeing your parent as a human? Couldn't be me

[basser]

Annie and Tony opine about each other to a lady-shaped chunk of rock.

Meanwhile I'm chucking to myself over the thought that maybe Zimmy didn't undo Loup's thing after all, maybe all she did was remind Annie about how she's a personification of fire and flames can just, y'know, combine. Maybe this is pretty much what always happens when you shift an elemental and that's why you ain't supposed to go around shifting folks all willy-nilly, cause you never know when you might end up supercharging a belligerent fire elemental.

And on another note how many incarnations of this exact fire spirit d'you think Jones has had the pleasure of staring blankly at while they talk about feelings and stuff.

[madjack]

May 12, 2021 7:32:02 GMT basser said:

And on another note how many incarnations of this exact fire spirit d'you think Jones has had the pleasure of staring blankly at while they talk about feelings and stuff.

Maybe not that many, since it's implied here that Jones has only been at the Court since world war 2 at the earliest, given she'd only heard of them at the time of the blitz.

Edit: It's implied Surma was brought to the Court from the outside too? Seeing as she was put into the wrong house along with Anja.

Another edit: Surma didn't like Jones at all so, Annie might well be the first.

[imaginaryfriend]

I think that today's page provides Antimony's final explanation of and/or response to what her father's look meant back on #813. The cynic in me whispers that it's probably not that quite that simple, that Antimony is probably seeing her mother through rose-tinted glasses, but the optimist in me thinks that it's probably good enough.

[wies]

May 12, 2021 7:11:04 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Here's a link to the page wherein Coyote discusses the three Ysengrins vs. real Ysengrin for comparison purposes (there's some interesting differences).

I was thinking of that page too. And I think as with Tony, Ysengrin is all of them.

[basser]

Well yeah but we got no numbers on how many human bodies the fire spirit's gone through beyond it's had at least three or four now. Coyote kinda implied a lot more than that, though. So I'm picturing this unholy union of dude and literal actual fire happened somewhere back in ye olde medieval times (when folks had naught else to do but seduce fire, natch) and then assuming each vessel has her baby between ages 15-30ish you wind up with a whole bunch of opportunities for Jones to bump into this particular spirit. If that's the case then Jones' weird interest in Annie's mental state might just be her trying to figure out what's up with the Flame on account of she's never seen it do something like this before.

[V]

May 12, 2021 7:43:19 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I think that today's page provides Antimony's final explanation of and/or response to what her father's look meant back on #813. The cynic in me whispers that it's probably not that quite that simple, that Antimony is probably seeing her mother through rose-tinted glasses, but the optimist in me thinks that it's probably good enough.

I'm afraid I don't follow, what would the simple explanation/response be, and what would her perception of Surma have to do with Tony's look? That she lied to her?

I thought this was more about Surma's line later in there, with Annie deliberately reusing her words, but I still don't quite get the connection.

[sebastian]

May 12, 2021 7:43:19 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I think that today's page provides Antimony's final explanation of and/or response to what her father's look meant back on #813. The cynic in me whispers that it's probably not that quite that simple, that Antimony is probably seeing her mother through rose-tinted glasses, but the optimist in me thinks that it's probably good enough.

I don't get what you mean, I thought obvious that that look meant that while he was having a moment with Surma the istant he found that Antimony was in the room his 'mindcage' went up and he went from distressed and emotional to cold and distant. What do you thought it meant?

[saardvark]

Hmm, maybe to Tony, since he never knew her otherwise, Surma = human + fire elemental was still one person. But Annie, from the moment of her birth, was slowly draining the elemental, a part of Surma, into herself. Thus Annie is paradoxically two people, and so up goes the mind cage.

(Apologies if someone has thunk this already....)

[Gemminie]

We see Annie close up, talking to Jones, who is farther away. She explains just what it is that she got wrong, which she was talking about on the previous page: it's not that there's a real Tony and a false Tony; both are real.

And then we slip into "illustration of the speaker's thoughts" mode, with a large image of a neutral-expressioned Tony in the center, a black circle behind him that serves as the center for six radial sub-panels: Tony after months nearly dying in the wilderness, Tony on his quest, young Tony during the expedition, Tony with Surma in the hospital, Tony working with a Big Science Machine, Tony getting an injection for his hand from the Annies. The black background of the central image blends into the shadows of that image in such a way that Tony's head looks disconnected from his body. Meanwhile, Annie goes on to explain that all the Tonys are Tony, and Surma loved him for what he is.

I suppose it makes sense for Annie to say that, because she was recently Annies but is actually one Annie. But is she correct? I mean, Tony himself described his experience as being inside a cage, unable to express himself to others much of the time. So I'm not sure Tony would agree with this assessment himself (not that he's necessarily correct either). It seems to me, however, that Surma would have been more likely to agree with Annie's assessment.

[fia]

*Takes a tiny bow*
I've been saying for a while this is what this stuff is leading to, although I wasn't expecting Annie to just say it bluntly. The spiritual side of alchemy is all about opposites-are-a-whole, perfection-through-destruction-and-reunion. Antimony having the alchemical realization about herself first, and then about her father, that's the journey. The opposites are one.

Tony just has to catch up. I think it's him who doesn't quite get it yet. Going by Gemminie's interpretation from last time, he still thinks of himself as two different people, like Annie used to (more than once), or like the 'real' him is in a cage and 'something else' is out there interacting, like he's in the Sunken Place. He's the same dude the entire time.
I guess the Mind Cage isn't etheric after all? Not like hocus-pocus etheric anyway.

Good for Annie. So proud of her. Hope her dad eventually acquires half her courage and brains.

[fia]

Okay okay I'm going to say it – CARVER HIKING TRIP

oh they would be so cute out in the woods, with their pet dog-wolf familiar and just a little awkward, Annie lights the campfire, they both really enjoy the view. they wouldn't talk much but that's okay. maybe they meet up with the Donlans at the end of their trek, who are hanging out on the beach with the Cadena-Blancos. awwwwww.

[Bandolute]

Now that Annie will blithely accept anything Tony gives her as all she can get, with a smile, he truly has no incentive to change or improve. Looking forward to his continuing stagnation as a human being. Can't wait for the scene where he sacrifices his life for Annie or some shit and Eglamore sheds a single tear, whispering "I misjudged you." The deification of the worst dad will finally be complete.

This is so empty and unsatisfying. The child's revelation that their parent is a complex agent with many facets shouldn't terminate in "and that's why everything they do is okay!" But I guess he's utterly incapable of change, and expecting it is stupid since he doesn't really want to try.

[aline]

May 12, 2021 14:38:08 GMT Bandolute said:

Now that Annie will blithely accept anything Tony gives her as all she can get, with a smile, he truly has no incentive to change or improve.

We just saw him explain that he has always wanted to have that easy relationship with her, that he was delighted when he was able to relax around her. He wants this, he always wanted it, the reason it's not happening isn't for lack of incentive. He just doesn't know how to fix it (yet).

May 12, 2021 14:38:08 GMT Bandolute said:

This is so empty and unsatisfying. The child's revelation that their parent is a complex agent with many facets shouldn't terminate in "and that's why everything they do is okay!" But I guess he's utterly incapable of change, and expecting it is stupid since he doesn't really want to try.

1) He has already changed. A lot. His interactions with Annie used to be forbidding her to do things and checking her homework. Since then he has invited her to live with him (which would be normal elsewhere in the world, but is unusual at the Court, Annie is the only kid her age sharing a house with her parent as far as we know), he has shown trust in her judgment and ability, and has been bonding with her familiar who he had previously tried to separate from her.

2) Accepting someone for who they are isn't saying "everything they do is okay". What Annie is discovering now is what all kids have to discover one day, that her father is a person, a big mess of a person, with flaws. It doesn't mean everything he does is okay. In fact it means the exact contrary. Finding out your parent is a flawed person opens up the door to questioning their choices on equal footing.

Edit:
3) You can love someone unconditionally and still disagree with what they do and say, have boundaries, and demand respect. 

[AluK]

May 12, 2021 14:38:08 GMT Bandolute said:

Now that Annie will blithely accept anything Tony gives her as all she can get, with a smile, he truly has no incentive to change or improve. Looking forward to his continuing stagnation as a human being. Can't wait for the scene where he sacrifices his life for Annie or some shit and Eglamore sheds a single tear, whispering "I misjudged you." The deification of the worst dad will finally be complete.

This is so empty and unsatisfying. The child's revelation that their parent is a complex agent with many facets shouldn't terminate in "and that's why everything they do is okay!" But I guess he's utterly incapable of change, and expecting it is stupid since he doesn't really want to try.

That's certainly a read.

Or, you can read what's actually there, that Annie is learning to understand her father as a complex person and is more willing to accept him as that. What Anthony will or won't isn't really the subject here; he'll get there by himself, because no one changes for external forces, but for internal ones. And if he's to get there it will be through understanding and support.

[imaginaryfriend]

Replying to sebastian and V :

I don't get what you mean, I thought obvious that that look meant that while he was having a moment with Surma the instant he found that Antimony was in the room his 'mindcage' went up and he went from distressed and emotional to cold and distant. What do you thought it meant?

That's correct however I figure that Antimony's view of how and why her mother fell in love with Anthony and what her mother was communicating to her about her father is oversimplified. The key is that "...the good and, I suppose, the bad" part.

I think Antimony's current take on Anthony is a "well that's just how he is" broad brush that could be (and probably was by Surma) being used to gloss over other feelings from time to time.  Don't get me wrong, it's great that Antimony can see Anthony as a person as well as her parent. I've met some people who never learned how to do that. It's good enough for now but if her view doesn't continue to evolve as she grows older might become a bad example later on. A "well that's just how he is" can be used to excuse as well as explain.  I hope we see something about that before the comic ends...

I'm afraid I don't follow, what would the simple explanation/response be, and what would her perception of Surma have to do with Tony's look? That she lied to her?

I'd prefer to say oversimplified. I don't think Surma is lying there but she probably was at least sometimes ignoring inconvenient hard-to-explain details on how Anthony interacted with Antimony. If Surma was Anthony's whole world, so to speak, it would be human nature for there to be some resentment towards Antimony on some level even though he still loves her. Even without her imminent death just the time that Antimony would take up that he used to spend with Surma would be something that would rankle at least a bit. Couples normally experience that when they have a kid(s).  I'm not sure he could deal with those feelings in any way other than suppressing them and that might cause them to peek out from time to time. Sometimes the mind cage may have not been the mind cage.

Also not sure that Antimony understands how Surma and Anthony's romantic relationship worked. Not sure I do either, but it occurs to me that "the bad" might have been complimentary to Surma's way of doing things. "The mind cage" may have been useful, not just something that Surma accepted as part of the package.

[blackouthart]

May 12, 2021 16:31:55 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Replying to sebastian and V :

I don't get what you mean, I thought obvious that that look meant that while he was having a moment with Surma the instant he found that Antimony was in the room his 'mindcage' went up and he went from distressed and emotional to cold and distant. What do you thought it meant?

That's correct however I figure that Antimony's view of how and why her mother fell in love with Anthony and what her mother was communicating to her about her father is oversimplified. The key is that "...the good and, I suppose, the bad" part.

I think Antimony's current take on Anthony is a "well that's just how he is" broad brush that could be (and probably was by Surma) being used to gloss over other feelings from time to time.  Don't get me wrong, it's great that Antimony can see Anthony as a person as well as her parent. I've met some people who never learned how to do that. It's good enough for now but if her view doesn't continue to evolve as she grows older might become a bad example later on. A "well that's just how he is" can be used to excuse as well as explain.  I hope we see something about that before the comic ends...

Yeah, I was here to say the same thing. As much as I think it's great that Annie sees her father as a complex human being - way older people have trouble doing this, myself included - I want to know how she actually feels. This is definitely a more evolved approach, but it still feels like she's deflecting any discussion of how she actually feels about her father's actions. We can wax philosophically about our parents all we want to people when they're not around. What I want to know is how Annie actually feels beyond any intellectual rationalization of his actions and motivations. Whether she's been hurt, whether she forgives him, these are all still extremely up in the air and I really do hope he's just not let off the hook. He has changed. He's had to, obviously. But I want to know how she feels about her father, truly. This just still feels like fluff. I know GC is hard to read on a day by day basis, but I want the prevarication to stop. 

Tom: more questions you say? coming right up! 

(is my prediction) 

[mitten]

Truly, with each and every panel that I see Annie rationalizing about how she understands everything now, and it's totally cool, really, truly - the more my inner eye keeps seeing the 'This is fine' meme, with the cartoon dog being slowly engulfed in flames. (Not linking to it, since I don't know if linking to other sites is allowed on this forum but it's easy enough to find if you don't know the one I mean.)

[Bandolute]

May 12, 2021 15:21:48 GMT aline said:

You can love someone unconditionally and still disagree with what they do and say, have boundaries, and demand respect. 

I mean, agreed, but that really doesn't seem like what is happening to me. It seems like she's just repressed any reasonable upset or anger, and the story is presenting that as mature and more morally correct than being hurt. Tony won't meet her half way, so she's run the entire stretch and given up on him ever showing her love openly again, and I genuinely don't know why most people think this is good.

Is Tony showing Annie respect by never apologizing for what he's done wrong, or even acknowledging there was any wrongdoing in the first place? Is he erecting a reasonable boundary by allowing his grief to continue to color his perception of his daughter?

It just reads as more "See? He had his reasons." To which my response is obviously, everyone does, but so what? Tony is complex? This is not a profound insight, and it doesn't excuse anything. He needs to do better.

[laaaa]

Hmm, I don't think we are reaching a "this is fine" scenario... I think we are reaching a "this is a human" scenario. Tony was so alianated from his daughter that she legit believed he had brainwashing powers and seduced her mom and tricked Kat into liking him. Now she sees him simply as a person with lots of issues. A great gap (namely "I feel like my dad is a robot with two personalities") has been bridged.
And while Tony and his actions may never be "fine", I think we'll reach a point where they are "okay". People mess up. Parents mess up too. Sometimes you can't undo your actions and their consequences. A wrong parenting approach, a trauma from the parent's own childhood, a mental/physical illness, drugs, depression, the death of a family member, bankruptcy, debt, etc could make anyone a sub-par parent. I know parents who had some sort of calamity befall them during their children's formative years, resulting in problematic (even neglectful) parenting, with lasting consequences to the children.
Of course this is not okay, but it doesn't mean that the parent is actually abusive. Abuse is a strong word. And because, really, it could happen to anyone - me, you, your children, my grandchildren - any of us can somehow, for any reason, fail spectacularly at parenting. Hurt those we love. Crush their dreams. Miscalculate their needs. It'd be great if parents automatically became superhumanly strong and unmovable pillars of wisdom and stability for their children, but that's not how it works. And if a sudden death of a loved one or a serious illness or money problems shattered my emotional stability and crippled my parenting abilities then that would be horrible, but it still doesn't make me abusive. And if and when I start to get myself together and try my best, I'd wish to be forgiven and given a second chance. Because of this wish, I feel I own others (Tony in this instance) the same second chance.
This is the vibe Annie is giving me. "I understand my dad a little bit. He did some crappy things. He has unresolved issues. He's trying. He loves me and I still love him, I want to give this another go. I want to keep trying to have a good relationship with him."
In other words, "this is my family".
This is one of the most realistic things in this supernatural-filled comic. A genuinely difficult relationship. Where you love someone despite of the things they've done. Where it takes huge effort to forgive the other's mistake. And where the loved one did a mistake they don't know how they could fix.

[Bandolute]

May 12, 2021 20:25:24 GMT laaaa said:

A wrong parenting approach, a trauma from the parent's own childhood, a mental/physical illness, drugs, depression, the death of a family member, bankruptcy, debt, etc could make anyone a sub-par parent. I know parents who had some sort of calamity befall them during their children's formative years, resulting in problematic (even neglectful) parenting, with lasting consequences to the children.

Of course this is not okay, but it doesn't mean that the parent is actually abusive.

Unrelated to Tony or anything in the comic, but just as a stand alone assertion-- if your parenting has become sub-par, problematic, or negligent, you may very well be abusive depending on the severity. "Abusive" isn't a term limited solely to people who cause harm for fun. Plenty of abusers have experienced abuse or tragedy, or are suffering. You don't have to willfully intend to abuse your child to display abusive behavior, it's not about your intent. That is not how abuse works. Being sorry about it, or having sad a reason for it doesn't make it not abuse.

[laaaa]

May 12, 2021 20:40:59 GMT Bandolute said:

May 12, 2021 20:25:24 GMT laaaa said:

A wrong parenting approach, a trauma from the parent's own childhood, a mental/physical illness, drugs, depression, the death of a family member, bankruptcy, debt, etc could make anyone a sub-par parent. I know parents who had some sort of calamity befall them during their children's formative years, resulting in problematic (even neglectful) parenting, with lasting consequences to the children.

Of course this is not okay, but it doesn't mean that the parent is actually abusive.

Unrelated to Tony or anything in the comic, but just as a stand alone assertion-- if your parenting has become sub-par, problematic, or negligent, you may very well be abusive depending on the severity. "Abusive" isn't a term limited solely to people who cause harm for fun. Plenty of abusers have experienced abuse or tragedy, or are suffering. You don't have to willfully intend to abuse your child to display abusive behavior, it's not about your intent. That is not how abuse works. Being sorry about it, or having sad a reason for it doesn't make it not abuse.

But that's the thing: intent limits the severity of it.
If I intend to be a good parent then I'll get it right eventually. Maybe not as fast as I should, but I will. I'll try to find ways to stop it. Maybe I won't find them soon enough, but I'll find them eventally. Progress, however small, will be made.
Intent also helps in the wronged person to cope with/heal more quickly from it. "My dad is strict because he wants me to become responsible" is very different for the child from: "My dad is strict because he doesn't want me to embarass him in front of his friends".
Unless the parent is really, REALLY in extremely deep trouble (say, with drugs) then I think most parents who trully love their children and stuggle with issues of their own may occasionally be crap parents, but won't cross the line to being abusive.

Edit: intend will also limit the duration of the problematic behavior (once again, limiting the severity). From the moment the parent gets the support they need, they'll inprove. A mourning widow will get her head together with support from the family. A raging narkissist will play mind games with the therapist for ever and no matter how much "love" they have for the child, they have a lot more for themselves.

But then, all this is just my speculation. I'm not an expert and have no personal experience of family abuse.

[Bandolute]

May 12, 2021 20:55:27 GMT laaaa said:

But that's the thing: intent limits the severity of it.

I disagree. I think this is a little naive. People are perfectly capable of abusing those they sincerely love. Maybe they hate themselves for it. Maybe they're not capable of recognizing what they're doing is abuse. It's still abusive, regardless of their intentions. The severity of that abuse, the time period over which it occurs, are completely independent of intent, or the presence of love.

But since we're getting off topic, agree to disagree.

[gergle]

"That is the man my mother fell in love with"

From everything that everyone outside of Surma and Tony has seen, that is the man your mother SAYS she fell in love with.

We have zero evidence to support that she actually did.  

It's equally, and I'd say from the evidence we HAVE seen, MORE likely, your father slipped your mother a mind altering drug when he had her alone in the jungle.