[2459] "I want to take part in life."

[wies]

Apr 27, 2021 8:05:56 GMT silicondream said:

I was going to try to take a break from “LEAVE TONY ALONE” rants, but...well, apologies. Here we go!

Apr 26, 2021 7:52:17 GMT wies said:

I sympathize with the yearning to take part in life very much, but Tony has to seek help if he wants to accomplish that.

As others have said, how do we know he didn’t? Maybe there are no therapists; maybe he’s tried but couldn’t find a willing provider with security clearance; maybe he’s done therapy but it hasn’t worked. Treatment-resistant mental illnesses and shitty behavioral health care systems are not exactly rare in the real world.

The only person we’ve met at the Court who’s anything close to a therapist is Jones, and her relationship with Tony has a giant wall in the middle called That Business With James. Still, as we see here, Tony is already talking to her. And he certainly reached out to his wife and friends.

I wasn't saying he didn't. (Though I do think that too, but also acknowledge it would have been very hard to do so) I was saying he needs to seek help now to take part in life.And yeah, it is a good step in that regard he is saying this to Jones.

Apr 27, 2021 8:05:56 GMT silicondream said:

(much worse like going off on a journey at your own to find a mystic solution, to name an example)

Why would that be worse? Annie and her friends do it all the time: that’s how you process your issues in a fantasy world. Fighting monsters, and talking to gods, and reanimating ancient robots, is their therapy. Why shouldn’t Tony be allowed to try the same thing?

foxurus put this more succinctly upthread, but look at Kat. When she couldn’t handle Annie’s doubling, she disappeared into her lab and reverse-engineered a robot bird from her parents’ old stories while concocting an elaborate multiverse theory with dead alt-Annies and bereaved alt-Kats. Then she tried to figure out how to break time in half, eventually consulted some goddesses for the secrets of time travel, and tied Annie’s life back together with a causal loop.

...none of which actually solved the initial problem of there being two Annies, but it made Kat feel a lot better and saved all Annies everywhere, maybe? This approach works for most GC characters.

And it worked for Tony, really. It hasn't cured his mental issue or Annie's curse, but it made him commit to Annie over Surma and I'm sure it's contributed to his ridiculous courage and determination whenever he has to protect her.  Also, he's a licensed surgeon, entomologist, engineer, shaman and necromancer at this point, which is bound to come in handy from time to time.  Can't become Bat-Dad without a training montage!

Well, it is worse because she was grieving and would likely have benefited from even a distant dad who is trying.

Kat...is a very complicated case. This Kat didn't mean to do all that. She just discovered her future herself did that already. And was forced to repeat that out of fear for the string of rescued Annies fatally broken. It is not liking Tony sending Anny to Gunnerkrigg while going off to see his wife again. Though there is a parallell with Tony's situation. She was so obsessed with the doiubling Paz felt neglected, and she was probably right. Which caused also some (teenage) drama.

It didn't work. He was already pretty commited to Annie. He is just bad at handling parenting in emotional regard. Tony was already determined and pretty courageous before his misfortune. It just left him both physically and mentally scarred.

I think in many regards Tony took reasonable decisions and even has shown good parenting (just disastrously not when it comes to communication and regulating emotions) but his journey was one of the worst decisions of his life.

I like the nickname Bat-Dad, both because he is as overprepared and meticulous and also because it sounds like bad dad.

[0o0f]

Apr 27, 2021 12:29:02 GMT frogspawned said:

If people were focused primarily on the lance of bone, I could also maybe get it. That's a direct, harmful thing - and while it was done in ignorance and born of tortured, desperate optimism I could still grasp the argument. But the example we're generally given is 'making her feel bad about cheating' which... seems quite reasonable? People should feel bad about cheating, especially when they're clever enough to succeed on their own but are too irresponsible to bother.

I think it's more about how he shows up after being absent for so long, and then proceeds to humiliate her. That clearly had a hurtful effect on her beyond "feeling bad about cheating." Although he had to do something because the court was threatening to expel her, I imagine there are ways he could have avoided hurting her to this extent.

[lurkerbot]

Apr 27, 2021 8:05:56 GMT silicondream said:

... Alternatively: choose saving your daughter from expulsion and banishment, explaining why to the only person who cares and can be trusted, and not getting drunk alone.

Renard was watching Tony on all his lonely nights. He wasn’t boozing it up, he was reviewing Annie’s schoolwork.


... Tony sent Annie to the school where they all worked, and he made sure that everything she needed was provided for her, ...

Well stated.

[imaginaryfriend]

Proposed topic for discussion: Do parents have a responsibility to socialize (to make fit for social environment) children well and/or lead them to emotional maturity (to act and express themselves effectively and in a controlled appropriate fashion)?

[Gemminie]

Apr 27, 2021 15:51:46 GMT 0o0f said:

Apr 27, 2021 12:29:02 GMT frogspawned said:

If people were focused primarily on the lance of bone, I could also maybe get it. That's a direct, harmful thing - and while it was done in ignorance and born of tortured, desperate optimism I could still grasp the argument. But the example we're generally given is 'making her feel bad about cheating' which... seems quite reasonable? People should feel bad about cheating, especially when they're clever enough to succeed on their own but are too irresponsible to bother.

I think it's more about how he shows up after being absent for so long, and then proceeds to humiliate her. That clearly had a hurtful effect on her beyond "feeling bad about cheating." Although he had to do something because the court was threatening to expel her, I imagine there are ways he could have avoided hurting her to this extent.

Tony did a number of things there. He took her (and everyone else) by surprise just by showing up, he made her go take her makeup off while he and the rest of the class waited silently, he waited until the end of class before explaining why she didn't have a textbook, he informed her that she'd be held back a year, he informed her that she'd be moving to new solitary quarters, he canceled her visiting privileges to the Forest, and he demanded that she give him Renard. That's seven separate surprises he hit her with all in the space of an hour or so.

It seems pretty obvious that three to four of them were Court-specified: Annie's being held back a year is a direct result of her plagiarism, and her new quarters are a direct result of that. And the Court had wanted to end her Forest visiting privileges for some time. As for Renard – James, Anja and Don wanted Annie to give him to them back in chapter 7, and refusing to do so led to her going out onto the bridge and getting pushed off, according to what James assumed, which Annie didn't correct him about. So I'd say the Court probably wanted Renard taken away from her, and Tony probably didn't disagree at all, considering his past experiences with Renard (i.e. a murderous body-stealing demon stalking Surma who had tried to kill Annie too).

I could even argue that a couple more are the Court's doing, too. Annie had no prior notice that Tony was back because nobody did. Wouldn't it usually be common practice for all a school's teachers to have a meeting or two before the school year began, or at the very least to get a list with each other's names and contact info? But James, Don, and Anja, all teachers, were completely blindsided by Tony's appearance, which definitely means that the Court deliberately left Tony's name off the contact list and excluded him from the meeting (at which his presence would probably have been disruptive anyway). The Court wanted Annie to be blindsided by his sudden reappearance, so they made certain that nobody Annie had contact with knew that he was even coming back, let alone when, or what he'd be doing. The Court didn't want Annie to know about Tony, or the consequences she was going to face, before that class period.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Annie would have to sit tensely through an hour of class without a textbook before he explained why. He could have said, "You shall be repeating Year 9 and thus shall not be taking this course, but for today you shall remain in your seat, because I will be speaking with you after class." That at least would have given her something, rather than Mystery Biology Theatre 3000.

And then there was the makeup thing. I can see absolutely zero ways in which the Court was involved in that decision. That was all Tony, and it was horrible. He may have been very upset and all, and he may have seen Surma's face, but in no way did that justify that. That was the worst, and he has yet to as much as apologize to Annie for it, let alone explain it or atone for it.

[blazingstar]

Apr 27, 2021 18:25:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Proposed topic for discussion: Do parents have a responsibility to socialize (to make fit for social environment) children well and/or lead them to emotional maturity (to act and express themselves effectively and in a controlled appropriate fashion)?

YES. That's absolutely part of their job. (This is why the practice of sending young children off to boarding school confuses me so much.) 

Specifically, a parent should do their best give their child tools to navigate a social environment in a way that is age-appropriate for the child (sometimes adults expect children to be too mature, like telling them never to cry) and emotionally healthy. Even if the parent doesn't have that social capability or emotional tools themselves. 

[Bandolute]

Apr 27, 2021 8:05:56 GMT silicondream said:

Would he have been a better father by killing himself or running away?

Maybe? Like in terms of sheer harm done by his return, versus the good? Depends solely on what he thinks he's going to accomplish by keeping Annie "in the program" which I am intuiting to be something related to extended her lifespan, if I'm optimistic about it. But Annie's not exactly lacking in father figures these days. Her biodad hasn't filled a void upon his return so much as he's opened one up.

Apr 27, 2021 8:05:56 GMT silicondream said:

What Tony did convey to Annie was precisely what he should have done. He was a “quiet man” who couldn’t talk to anybody, therefore he couldn’t talk to her either. He was an antisocial and unpopular man who was distant with everybody, therefore was distant with her as well. That was the only way she could understand him without the fatal realization that she, specifically, was his problem. And it worked; Antimony has almost always been happy around him and confident in his love.

Of course, at some point in her life Annie was always going to figure things out. But it would be far better for her to do so as late in life as possible, when her ego would be strong enough to cope. That’s probably why Anja and even Kat got evasive when Annie popped the “but why is it just me?” question, and why Annie herself retracted it. She'll learn on her own when she's ready--which is probably right about now.

Lord have fucking mercy. I retract my previous statement. Tony DEFINITELY should have gotten lost in that desert and never been found, if we're counting "allowing Annie the blissful ignorance of not knowing her dad will never be able to openly communicate with HER SPECIFICALLY" as one of his good parenting decisions. As though "figure it out somehow, you're an adult and a GENIUS" isn't an option instead. Annie isn't confidant of his love. Having never seen proof of it, she was just desperate to think it existed. Even Surma felt the need to reassure Annie of that love, after Tony shot his one and only child a look of complete and utter loathing back, back at the hospital. That shit is formative. She is confident of nothing.

We'll all be circling this drain forever except all the normal people, well-adjusted people who just want everyone to stop screaming about Tony, because some of us look at Tony and see an abuser, and see the harm he's done to Annie, and it makes the "good" in him seem farcical and empty.

And some of use see this same guy and apparently think he's the most relatable dude ever, except that he makes little mistakes--and forget Annie, look how much HE'S hurting over all of this! And I shake my head but pretty much understand this position, even if it sets my teeth to grind, because having intense social anxiety is horrible. Your own mind preventing you from engaging with the world, accidentally hurting the people you love, is horrible. It's not hard to see yourself in that pattern of behavior, I get it. 

Or I THINK I do, right up until someone gives Tony accolades for what they see as purposefully minimizing the psychological impact of a "fatal realization," like any of this was just or good or necessary. Like it's just out of his hands completely, that all he can do with his zero agency is mitigate the damage. Darkly humorous, because it is so, so bad, and indicates such a steep irredeemability that I am no longer sure why anyone who does relate to him would want to continue to do so. Even I, Tony Hater #4, don't dislike him to the point where I think that was the best he could have done, or believe that is the most he is capable of. Better to think it was a mistake or a failing than to think it was some sort of premeditated deception made so that she could delude herself into feeling loved until she was old enough to withstand its lack.

[drmemory]

Apr 27, 2021 9:10:10 GMT pyradonis said:

Apr 27, 2021 2:21:22 GMT drmemory said:

[...]

Sorry, no wild theories or anything this time, I'm just wondering if i missed something here.  Like why someone would be worried about Annie's mental state, if I missed evidence of same, and who could or would give Jones tasks like that.

I just assumed it were people like the Shadow Men or Llanwellyn who are interested in Annie's mental state and how her recombination came about. And that Jones interviews all these other people only after getting the task of evaluating the new Annie.

That there is pretty much why I keep poking at the core question of why Jones is tasked with looking into Annie's mental state - I don't think that's really what she is meant to be doing.  I suspect she was sent to do that on the theory that she'd uncover what really happened with the recombination (or whatever it really is).  So that sounds right.  Perhaps the people behind the curtain thought they'd get better results asking Jones to evaluate Annie's mental state than by asking Jones to spy on Annie.

This has to be puzzling to the Court people responsible for monitoring things - normally big events involving Annie happen after she goes to the forest, but this one did not. Not knowing what really happened has got to be really bugging them. I have to assume that their surveillance cannot see what happens inside Zimmy's mind realm.

We've previously been told that when people are in there, they are physically where they were to start with.  Like in Spring Heeled, Zimmy said she was going ok because she was really still standing next to Gamma on the rooftop.  So if we assume that the elf chase really happened, then the Annies, the elf kids, Zimmy and Renard all kind of hung out on the street at that intersection they were at when Pouncing Elf Boy pounced.  I don't think we've ever been told about whether there is outside surveillance in the court (like the cameras in GB).

Then there is a discontinuity, where we cut to Zimmy and Gamma watching the elf kids playing sports with a bunch of other kids, not all elven.  Annie appears, looking a bit confused at first, but quickly figures things out and turns down Renard's offer of an explanation.  We are not told if that scene immediately followed the previous scene.

I still think there is something funny about that whole thing - the elf kids were dressed for the game when we first saw them, and were dressed the same way when we saw them playing.  We only think they were out chasing Zimmy because we were told that.  What if this really started with Zimmy and Gamma watching them play their game, the Annies wandered by, and they and the elf kids were sucked in to Zimmy's recreation of her bulling incident "using elements from the court"?  It's a theory anyway.  I don't feel strongly about it, but I still feel like there is something odd about the sequence of events we were shown.  Like why would the elf kids interrupt their game to chase Zimmy, then return to it as if nothing happened?

If it did happen as presented, with the chase, the bullying recreation, the Annie argument, the reconciliation between Zimmy and Gamma and Renard, leading to Zimmy doing... something to help Annie understand herself better (which also caused there to be only one physical Annie around, either because they are merged or for some other reason)... I wonder what that looked like?    Zimmy, Annies, Renard, and elf kids standing around looking dazed for a while, then two Annies poof and one appears, and Gamma appears from nowhere?  Or they all disappear from the corner and appear at the game?

I really love this comic.  Nothing else I've found fascinates me like this!

[drmemory]

I agree with the analyses that say most of what Tony did when he showed up in class was dictated by the court, but I'm still pretty unhappy with how he did it. He did not need to humiliate Annie like that.  Tell her the jig is up on her cheating and she has to re-take the year?  Sure.  A better man could have handled that better, but the facts were accurate and he had agreed to deal with it himself.  Confiscating Renard?  Hard to say.  Maybe the Court told him to attempt to get custody of Renard, maybe not.

Calling her makeup ridiculous?  Making the class sit in silence while she washed it off?  Blaming her for delaying her classmates when it was entirely his fault that the class was delayed, because he told them to sit in silence while she washed off her makeup, fully knowing already that she wasn't going to be permitted to participate in the class anyway?  None of that is cool, and I'm sure it wasn't required by the court.  I don't see how any of that could be blamed on his issues with communicating either - he was just totally a dick about it.

Likewise, his treatment of her when she attempted to show compassion about his hand, even after all he had just done to her.

I don't see how his treatment of Annie that day can be blamed on his mind cage.  He was communicating just fine - he chose to say what he said and treat her the way he did.  He was upset because she looked so much like his dead wife?  Well boo hoo.  He's the adult and needs to act like one.  We've seen him freeze up and fail to communicate, or just fail to explain himself well.  Either of those things would have been far better than what he actually did.

THIS is why people don't like him, I bet.  It's certainly my problem with him.  I've given him a lot of credit for giving her a place to live and trying to make sure she keeps up on her studies, but it doesn't entirely make up for just flat out treating her like dirt in front of her friends.  For a lot of her friends and classmates, this was their first exposure to the man, and they probably still haven't seen him interact with her in any other way.  Is it any wonder they question why she'd want to live with him?

Sorry, I've been a Tony defender for the most part, and I'm sure I will be again, but I just re-read Chapter 51, The Tree, and was reminded of how badly he treated her that day and how little of it could be blamed on his communications issues.

[todd]

One difficulty with the "the Court asked/ordered Antony to take Renard from Annie" speculation; Antony kept Renard, rather than turning him over to the Court. That suggests that he demanded Renard from her on his own initiative (it would make better sense for the Court to have Renard in its own keeping; in his condition, Antony might not be the best guardian - this became clear when he returned Renard to Annie, just like that).

[foxurus]

Apr 27, 2021 8:38:24 GMT silicondream said:

Ysengrin is, literally, the Big Bad Wolf. He has no regard for human life--in fact, he actively wants to wipe out humanity. He tried to kill Annie five minutes after he met her, threatened to kill her again when she saw him undressed, and even after they’d become near-family, a careless sentence made him snap and hunt her down through the forest like...well, like the predatory monster that he is. He crushed one of her most prized possessions, temporarily crippling her psychic abilities, and caused her to break down and try to incinerate him in revenge. Most horrifyingly of all, he agreed with Tony about her. And currently he’s all hopped up on Coyote juice--having murdered and eaten his, sort of, best friend and idol?--and has become Annie’s creepiest and most explicitly sexual stalker.

Objectively, and barring her own biology, Ysengrin is the most serious threat to Annie’s survival in the entire story. Subjectively, he has directly caused Annie immense amounts of panic, grief and anxiety. And we can’t even blame his issues on Coyote, because Ysengrin knows that Coyote’s distorting his mind and body and he accepts that in return for, well, power. He’s a textbook villain.

This is incredibly unfair and lets Coyote off the hook far too much. Loup is equally Coyote and Ysengrin (if not more Coyote), and his sexual advances are certainly inherited from Coyote. Coyote was not Ysengrin's "best" friend, nor his friend at all. Yes, his idol. But also his abuser and tormenter. He didn't know Coyote was taking his memories or filling his mind with holes. Coyote is objectively the most villainous character, more than anyone else in the comic could possibly be, and has also orchestrated events which put Annie (and others!) in extreme physical danger (also seen here and here) and caused emotional anguish. The one who throws you into a cage with a rabid dog is at fault for your injuries.

And he was with Coyote for strength, not power. There is no power in being someone's tool. One could also quite easily argue he stayed with Coyote due to the emotional abuse Coyote inflicted upon him.

I understand your point. But you could make it with less exaggeration, especially since you're against the uncharitable takes other people have of Mr. Carver.

Apr 27, 2021 13:46:25 GMT maxptc said:

Im a pretty big believer that people here are notorious for allowing the magic animals to get away with attempted murder and other moral failings towards Annie while judging the humans super harshly for less, like Paz gossiping.

Everyone in-universe is pretty solid about how much Renard, Coyote, and Ysengrin (and Tony) have fucked up. I don't see the same in-universe reaction to Paz; her resulting conversation with Kat was extremely underwhelming. If the characters had laid out why her behavior was problematic, I wouldn't feel the need to do it myself.

Apr 27, 2021 14:30:32 GMT wies said:

Yeah, "not the worst solution" was an understatement. It was a decent solution. I am not holding him responsible for that, but for the decision to not go with her. He would still have been a rather distant dad, but it would have been an environment where he could have learned better how to parent, with her making friends and him being able to talk with Donald or Jones. Even if he had to see Surma again, it would have been better if he waited longer than a month before going away. As people have pointed out in the threads of Annie and the Fire he would have known more about psychopomps if he had been able to communicate with her.

I agree with that! Leaving Annie because he felt she was better off without him was extremely short-sighted, and damaged Annie's psyche at an already incredibly tumultuous and difficult time in her life. She'll probably carry that scar for the rest of her life. He should have at least asked Surma (who knew Annie better) if she thought Annie would like him to be there instead of trusting his self-loathing, even if he wasn't able to ask Annie herself. (Also, on the topic of terrible things he's done, he handled his first day back atrociously and definitely didn't need to. Like drmemory says, that's entirely on him, not his mind cage.)

There's part of me that wonders if the Court twisted his arm and forced him to go immediately, but I think that's me giving him too much slack. His Court research probably could have waited a while.

Apr 28, 2021 1:15:57 GMT Bandolute said:

Even Surma felt the need to reassure Annie of that love, after Tony shot his one and only child a look of complete and utter loathing back, back at the hospital. That shit is formative. She is confident of nothing.

Yes, that was damaging for Annie, and she's certainly insecure about whether he loves her. No, it was not a look of "complete and utter loathing", it was just Tony's face. He has the same facial expression literally all the time when he's with Annie. This and this is how Tony looks when he's flipping out; his face does not change. He wasn't even angry when he walked past her; he was sad because he knew he couldn't save Surma. Surma was trying to reassure Annie that Tony didn't hold her responsible for Surma's death. (Yeah, even though Annie didn't know the context at all. Surma wasn't a very good mom either.)

Apr 28, 2021 1:15:57 GMT Bandolute said:

I am no longer sure why anyone who does relate to him would want to continue to do so.

One person had an opinion and suddenly you stop being able to understand anyone else who relates to him, even if they do not have that particular opinion?

[Polyhymnia]

Apr 28, 2021 1:15:57 GMT Bandolute said:

We'll all be circling this drain forever except all the normal people, well-adjusted people who just want everyone to stop screaming about Tony, because some of us look at Tony and see an abuser, and see the harm he's done to Annie, and it makes the "good" in him seem farcical and empty.

And some of use see this same guy and apparently think he's the most relatable dude ever, except that he makes little mistakes--and forget Annie, look how much HE'S hurting over all of this! And I shake my head but pretty much understand this position, even if it sets my teeth to grind, because having intense social anxiety is horrible. Your own mind preventing you from engaging with the world, accidentally hurting the people you love, is horrible. It's not hard to see yourself in that pattern of behavior, I get it.

Apr 28, 2021 2:21:03 GMT drmemory said:

I agree with the analyses that say most of what Tony did when he showed up in class was dictated by the court, but I'm still pretty unhappy with how he did it. He did not need to humiliate Annie like that. ...

Calling her makeup ridiculous?  Making the class sit in silence while she washed it off?  Blaming her for delaying her classmates when it was entirely his fault that the class was delayed, because he told them to sit in silence while she washed off her makeup, fully knowing already that she wasn't going to be permitted to participate in the class anyway?  None of that is cool, and I'm sure it wasn't required by the court.  I don't see how any of that could be blamed on his issues with communicating either - he was just totally a dick about it.

Likewise, his treatment of her when she attempted to show compassion about his hand, even after all he had just done to her.

I don't see how his treatment of Annie that day can be blamed on his mind cage.  He was communicating just fine - he chose to say what he said and treat her the way he did.  He was upset because she looked so much like his dead wife?  Well boo hoo.  He's the adult and needs to act like one.  We've seen him freeze up and fail to communicate, or just fail to explain himself well.  Either of those things would have been far better than what he actually did.

THIS is why people don't like him, I bet.  It's certainly my problem with him.  I've given him a lot of credit for giving her a place to live and trying to make sure she keeps up on her studies, but it doesn't entirely make up for just flat out treating her like dirt in front of her friends.  For a lot of her friends and classmates, this was their first exposure to the man, and they probably still haven't seen him interact with her in any other way.  Is it any wonder they question why she'd want to live with him?

Sorry, I've been a Tony defender for the most part, and I'm sure I will be again, but I just re-read Chapter 51, The Tree, and was reminded of how badly he treated her that day and how little of it could be blamed on his communications issues.

I haven't personally experienced abuse, so I feel like it's easier for me to relate strongly to both Annie and Tony without being repulsed by Tony's initial actions (which were not very appropriate, especially when he came back, as drmemory clearly put it, even if they were somewhat understandable. Especially refusing to start class until Annie returned from removed her makeup when he was about to tell her she's being held back anyways). And I really don't think his practical abandonment was okay, even if it was understandable &/or relatable. It was a maladaptive coping mechanism that hurt Annie (see: when she was waiting in vain for any contact). I can see why he did it, and relate to the emotional withdrawal (if not the desperation), but that doesn't make it okay. Still, since he's a character, I find these explorations of his personality interesting in a way I don't think I'd be able to if he was a real person or reminded me of a real person in my life.

Annie's conflicted relationship with her emotions has been really relatable since Mr. Donlan recognized the signs of emotional stress and gave her both help by addressing the problem but also giving her space and privacy. And then, her experience was juxtaposed directly with Tony being extremely conflicted over small social interactions while everyone else doesn't understand exactly how stressful "basic" social situations are when you don't know how to navigate them, which was about the most relatable thing ever (ADHD+social anxiety here). So while I really want Tony to address his mistakes and communicate with his daughter, that doesn't stop the mind cage from being one of the most relatable things I've seen.

I will say, I do give him props for amending protective decisions that were hastily made and without information. I also do approve of him trying to communicate, even when it's difficult (and even though that interaction looks tiny, it feels like a big deal to me, especially considering how he kept pushing through when it was distressing enough that he walked all the way up a ridge in his stockinged feet without noticing).

Do I think these attempts make up for his actions upon arriving? No, not really. I think addressing his specific behavior from that incident and apologizing is a necessary step in making amends over those specific actions. Same thing goes for his abandonment. He needs to address that, and if it means he acquires social skills to do so(such as means writing a letter or rehearsing a speech), he should work towards doing that if he wants to mend this relationship. Is he a good father? The jury's still out on that for me--I think he has potential to not be a bad one, but it's clear he has issues and that he needs to better communicate with his daughter. Time will tell for me how this relationship pans out.

[Gemminie]

Apr 28, 2021 1:43:20 GMT drmemory said:

We've previously been told that when people are in there, they are physically where they were to start with.  Like in Spring Heeled, Zimmy said she was going ok because she was really still standing next to Gamma on the rooftop.  So if we assume that the elf chase really happened, then the Annies, the elf kids, Zimmy and Renard all kind of hung out on the street at that intersection they were at when Pouncing Elf Boy pounced.  I don't think we've ever been told about whether there is outside surveillance in the court (like the cameras in GB).

If I had to hazard a guess, this is where everybody was the whole time. Zimmy and Gamma were sitting on that wall thing, the Annies and Renard were behind them, and the elf kids were never really in the zany elf chase at all; those were thought-forms based on the elf kids Zimmy (and Gamma) saw running around in the courtyard below them.

I still think there is something funny about that whole thing - the elf kids were dressed for the game when we first saw them, and were dressed the same way when we saw them playing.  We only think they were out chasing Zimmy because we were told that.  What if this really started with Zimmy and Gamma watching them play their game, the Annies wandered by, and they and the elf kids were sucked in to Zimmy's recreation of her bulling incident "using elements from the court"?  It's a theory anyway.  I don't feel strongly about it, but I still feel like there is something odd about the sequence of events we were shown.  Like why would the elf kids interrupt their game to chase Zimmy, then return to it as if nothing happened?

I think Zimmy and Gamma were watching them down there, and Zimmy had a PTSD flashback to that time when some teens chased her down and beat her up right as the Annies and Renard came by. Gamma wanted to help, but Zimmy was too wrapped up in the flashback and pushed her away (well, mentally), probably because she didn't feel she deserved help. That was already happening when the chapter began, and then the flashback did a deeper dive and incorporated a bunch of Annie's stuff into it too. Renard was never in it at all, but as an ethereal being he was able to look around, find Gamma, and ask her questions, once she woke up.

I don't think the elf kids were ever really involved. I think they were thought forms that Zimmy incorporated into her flashback, so when they heard Tam's thoughts they were partly the thoughts of the real Tam and partly the thoughts of the fake Tam from inside the scenario. None of them seemed to remember anything about it when the dream sequence ended, and more importantly, none of the other people who weren't involved were reacting as if four of them had just suddenly stopped where they were and stood still, staring into space (or collapsed to the ground, or whatever).

If it did happen as presented, with the chase, the bullying recreation, the Annie argument, the reconciliation between Zimmy and Gamma and Renard, leading to Zimmy doing... something to help Annie understand herself better (which also caused there to be only one physical Annie around, either because they are merged or for some other reason)... I wonder what that looked like?    Zimmy, Annies, Renard, and elf kids standing around looking dazed for a while, then two Annies poof and one appears, and Gamma appears from nowhere?  Or they all disappear from the corner and appear at the game?

I think it looked like what I mentioned above. The various elf and human kids were running around doing stuff in the courtyard below, Zimmy and Gamma were sitting on the wall watching them, the Annies and Renard came up behind them, and then suddenly there was one Annie instead of two. I think the incidents in Zimmingham took zero time in real life. Also, the corner where Zimmy ran into the Annies and Renard wasn't real. That was already inside the flashback.

I really love this comic.  Nothing else I've found fascinates me like this!

I know, right? It's amazing.

[Gemminie]

Apr 28, 2021 2:56:38 GMT todd said:

One difficulty with the "the Court asked/ordered Antony to take Renard from Annie" speculation; Antony kept Renard, rather than turning him over to the Court. That suggests that he demanded Renard from her on his own initiative (it would make better sense for the Court to have Renard in its own keeping; in his condition, Antony might not be the best guardian - this became clear when he returned Renard to Annie, just like that).

Well, maybe the Court said something like, "Oh, and try to get Renard away from her. He's a bad influence." Or maybe Tony came up with that idea on his own (understandable given his history with Renard). But I think the Court would have been fine with Tony owning Renard, at least for the moment, because they have some control/influence over him. They could have worked on getting him to willingly relinquish Renard to them later; the pressing issue was getting him away from Annie. They couldn't force Annie to give him to them; she'd just have refused. They couldn't just take him without simultaneously freeing him, as James said in chapter 9. The only way to get Renard away from her was to have Tony demand that she give Renard to him.

You know, I'm just wondering why the Court hasn't simply paid someone to steal Renard, douse him in kerosene, place him in a room whose walls are painted all over with those anti-possession wards, and toss in a burning flare before shutting the door. Maybe because they don't want him dead; they want him under their control. OK, fine; they place a figurine with eyes in that room that belongs to one of them, Renard's only option to stay alive. Maybe they're afraid that he wouldn't go for it and would choose to die rather than become some random Court flunky's captive?

[wlerin]

Apr 26, 2021 16:55:54 GMT Igniz said:

Apr 26, 2021 8:08:36 GMT wlerin said:

I *think* the bars behind Antimony are just the shadow of Tony's cage.

If so, the shadow should also be projected on Annie's head.

Not necessarily. She's a lot closer to the bars so the shadow would be narrower, and the page is also heavily stylized.

[migrantworker]

Apr 28, 2021 2:21:03 GMT drmemory said:

I agree with the analyses that say most of what Tony did when he showed up in class was dictated by the court, but I'm still pretty unhappy with how he did it. He did not need to humiliate Annie like that.  Tell her the jig is up on her cheating and she has to re-take the year?  Sure.  A better man could have handled that better, but the facts were accurate and he had agreed to deal with it himself.  Confiscating Renard?  Hard to say.  Maybe the Court told him to attempt to get custody of Renard, maybe not.

Calling her makeup ridiculous?  Making the class sit in silence while she washed it off?  Blaming her for delaying her classmates when it was entirely his fault that the class was delayed, because he told them to sit in silence while she washed off her makeup, fully knowing already that she wasn't going to be permitted to participate in the class anyway?  None of that is cool, and I'm sure it wasn't required by the court.  I don't see how any of that could be blamed on his issues with communicating either - he was just totally a dick about it.

Likewise, his treatment of her when she attempted to show compassion about his hand, even after all he had just done to her.

I don't see how his treatment of Annie that day can be blamed on his mind cage.  He was communicating just fine - he chose to say what he said and treat her the way he did.  He was upset because she looked so much like his dead wife?  Well boo hoo.  He's the adult and needs to act like one.  We've seen him freeze up and fail to communicate, or just fail to explain himself well.  Either of those things would have been far better than what he actually did.

THIS is why people don't like him, I bet.  It's certainly my problem with him.  I've given him a lot of credit for giving her a place to live and trying to make sure she keeps up on her studies, but it doesn't entirely make up for just flat out treating her like dirt in front of her friends.  For a lot of her friends and classmates, this was their first exposure to the man, and they probably still haven't seen him interact with her in any other way.  Is it any wonder they question why she'd want to live with him?

Sorry, I've been a Tony defender for the most part, and I'm sure I will be again, but I just re-read Chapter 51, The Tree, and was reminded of how badly he treated her that day and how little of it could be blamed on his communications issues.

Hmm, I saw all of Tony's actions in chapter 51, except those we later learnt were requested of him by the Court, as a power move pure and simple: I can do all this and you can't stop me. It had a lasting effect on Annie which has been discussed by others already, but also on the rest of the class: see the first panel here. "He is okay if we do what he says". Yes we remember you are the boss here, oh yes we do. Even the 'really interesting' practical stuff might be construed as a perk for compliance.

Now granted, a teacher must be in a position of some dominance over the class, or else it becomes problematic for him to actually do the teaching. But why Tony chose to establish his dominance in such an aggressive way - I do not know.

[pyradonis]

Apr 28, 2021 1:43:20 GMT drmemory said:

Apr 27, 2021 9:10:10 GMT pyradonis said:

I just assumed it were people like the Shadow Men or Llanwellyn who are interested in Annie's mental state and how her recombination came about. And that Jones interviews all these other people only after getting the task of evaluating the new Annie.

That there is pretty much why I keep poking at the core question of why Jones is tasked with looking into Annie's mental state - I don't think that's really what she is meant to be doing.  I suspect she was sent to do that on the theory that she'd uncover what really happened with the recombination (or whatever it really is).  So that sounds right.  Perhaps the people behind the curtain thought they'd get better results asking Jones to evaluate Annie's mental state than by asking Jones to spy on Annie.

This has to be puzzling to the Court people responsible for monitoring things - normally big events involving Annie happen after she goes to the forest, but this one did not. Not knowing what really happened has got to be really bugging them. I have to assume that their surveillance cannot see what happens inside Zimmy's mind realm.

You're certainly right in that the Court higher-ups must want to know what exactly happened. Depending on how you look at it, one of their citizens vanished. Maybe the Annie that came from the Forest was a spy after all? And if that "recombination" story is a lie and one of the Annies left or was taken away, their security was breached, another thing to be possibly concerned about.

But I think even if they actually believe that the two Annies are now one, they have an interest in her mental state. They are going to give Loup the Lake Water, and they have to decide whether they will take Annie with them. On one hand, if she is not there, Loup might react very negatively. Coyote pushed over a building when Annie was not allowed to sse him any more. On the other hand, Loup flipped out last time Annie(s) talked to him, and the Court will equally want to prevent a mentally unstable Annie to meet with Loup and say the wrong thing to him...

[todd]

Apr 28, 2021 4:47:39 GMT Gemminie said:

Well, maybe the Court said something like, "Oh, and try to get Renard away from her. He's a bad influence." Or maybe Tony came up with that idea on his own (understandable given his history with Renard). But I think the Court would have been fine with Tony owning Renard, at least for the moment, because they have some control/influence over him. They could have worked on getting him to willingly relinquish Renard to them later; the pressing issue was getting him away from Annie. They couldn't force Annie to give him to them; she'd just have refused. They couldn't just take him without simultaneously freeing him, as James said in chapter 9. The only way to get Renard away from her was to have Tony demand that she give Renard to him.

Maybe. But Antony's unsuccessful attempts to get Rey to speak to him do suggest that this was (at least, in part) Antony's agenda. (Maybe one of his motives was wanting to know more about Rey's connection with Surma.)

[todd]

Apr 27, 2021 13:53:12 GMT pyradonis said:

Apr 27, 2021 13:20:56 GMT todd said:

I wonder whether we go easier on Coyote, Ysengrin, and Renard than on Antony because they're non-humans ("magical" talking canids from myth and legend) while Antony's human. All the more so since the trouble those three have caused is of a fantastic nature, while Antony's actions towards Annie were more "real-world discipline" in tone.

You might be on to something here... I also wonder if Zimmy's blacked out eyes and sharp teeth are also a reason readers tend to go easier on her as well...

Perhaps. I noticed also that some readers went easier on the cruise ship in "The Torn Sea", saying that he was in love, and overlooked the fact that he was in love with a married woman who was happy with her husband and had no desire to cheat on him - and I wonder whether the would-be adulterer being a ship with artificial intelligence, and the woman whom he desired being a fantastic sea creature, made it easier to overlook that angle.

Also, characters like Renard, Ysengrin, and Coyote were lively and entertaining, even at their worst, while Antony has been generally serious. (Not to mention that Antony's disciplining Annie reined in - or at least, threatened to rein in - the adventure side of the comic, which the misdeeds of Coyote and his fellow etheric canids never did.)

[lurkerbot]

Apr 28, 2021 2:56:38 GMT todd said:

One difficulty with the "the Court asked/ordered Antony to take Renard from Annie" speculation; Antony kept Renard, rather than turning him over to the Court. That suggests that he demanded Renard from her on his own initiative (it would make better sense for the Court to have Renard in its own keeping; in his condition, Antony might not be the best guardian - this became clear when he returned Renard to Annie, just like that).

I think it's quite likely Tony made the Renard relinquishment demand on his own; he does say he did so out of concern for her safety. I imagine that his subsequent research into Antimony's past activities led him to conclude that Renard's companionship had been very good for her, which is why he had no remaining qualms about returning him when she asked.

Also note that Tony says he stopped Antimony's Forest visits, not the Court.

[todd]

Apr 28, 2021 17:46:18 GMT lurkerbot said:

Also note that Tony says he stopped Antimony's Forest visits, not the Court.

I wonder whether the Court might have influenced him into forbidding her - in part, I suspect, so that when Coyote showed up and started knocking buildings down (assuming that the Court had anticipated that step) they could point the finger at Antony in the hopes that Coyote would go after him and leave them alone.

[Gemminie]

Apr 28, 2021 23:47:58 GMT todd said:

Apr 28, 2021 17:46:18 GMT lurkerbot said:

Also note that Tony says he stopped Antimony's Forest visits, not the Court.

I wonder whether the Court might have influenced him into forbidding her - in part, I suspect, so that when Coyote showed up and started knocking buildings down (assuming that the Court had anticipated that step) they could point the finger at Antony in the hopes that Coyote would go after him and leave them alone.

True, we know the Court wanted to end her Forest visiting privileges, probably mostly because Coyote wanted her to be in the Forest a lot, and they knew that whatever Coyote wanted was something they wouldn't like. But they probably thought something like, "Hmm, if we just forbid her, Coyote can accuse the Court of kidnapping his chosen Forest medium, who is also an honorary Forest citizen, a serious breach of diplomatic protocol, and can demand recompense. But if Carver forbids her, it's not an official act of the Court, so we have deniability. He might still get mad and knock down a building, but that's not as bad. Meanwhile, we slow down his plans ... whatever they are."

[saardvark]

Apr 28, 2021 4:25:59 GMT Gemminie said:

Apr 28, 2021 1:43:20 GMT drmemory said:

We've previously been told that when people are in there, they are physically where they were to start with.  Like in Spring Heeled, Zimmy said she was going ok because she was really still standing next to Gamma on the rooftop.  So if we assume that the elf chase really happened, then the Annies, the elf kids, Zimmy and Renard all kind of hung out on the street at that intersection they were at when Pouncing Elf Boy pounced.  I don't think we've ever been told about whether there is outside surveillance in the court (like the cameras in GB).

If I had to hazard a guess, this is where everybody was the whole time. Zimmy and Gamma were sitting on that wall thing, the Annies and Renard were behind them, and the elf kids were never really in the zany elf chase at all; those were thought-forms based on the elf kids Zimmy (and Gamma) saw running around in the courtyard below them.

I still think there is something funny about that whole thing - the elf kids were dressed for the game when we first saw them, and were dressed the same way when we saw them playing.  We only think they were out chasing Zimmy because we were told that.  What if this really started with Zimmy and Gamma watching them play their game, the Annies wandered by, and they and the elf kids were sucked in to Zimmy's recreation of her bulling incident "using elements from the court"?  It's a theory anyway.  I don't feel strongly about it, but I still feel like there is something odd about the sequence of events we were shown.  Like why would the elf kids interrupt their game to chase Zimmy, then return to it as if nothing happened?

I think Zimmy and Gamma were watching them down there, and Zimmy had a PTSD flashback to that time when some teens chased her down and beat her up right as the Annies and Renard came by. Gamma wanted to help, but Zimmy was too wrapped up in the flashback and pushed her away (well, mentally), probably because she didn't feel she deserved help. That was already happening when the chapter began, and then the flashback did a deeper dive and incorporated a bunch of Annie's stuff into it too. Renard was never in it at all, but as an ethereal being he was able to look around, find Gamma, and ask her questions, once she woke up.

I don't think the elf kids were ever really involved. I think they were thought forms that Zimmy incorporated into her flashback, so when they heard Tam's thoughts they were partly the thoughts of the real Tam and partly the thoughts of the fake Tam from inside the scenario. None of them seemed to remember anything about it when the dream sequence ended, and more importantly, none of the other people who weren't involved were reacting as if four of them had just suddenly stopped where they were and stood still, staring into space (or collapsed to the ground, or whatever).

If it did happen as presented, with the chase, the bullying recreation, the Annie argument, the reconciliation between Zimmy and Gamma and Renard, leading to Zimmy doing... something to help Annie understand herself better (which also caused there to be only one physical Annie around, either because they are merged or for some other reason)... I wonder what that looked like?    Zimmy, Annies, Renard, and elf kids standing around looking dazed for a while, then two Annies poof and one appears, and Gamma appears from nowhere?  Or they all disappear from the corner and appear at the game?

I think it looked like what I mentioned above. The various elf and human kids were running around doing stuff in the courtyard below, Zimmy and Gamma were sitting on the wall watching them, the Annies and Renard came up behind them, and then suddenly there was one Annie instead of two. I think the incidents in Zimmingham took zero time in real life. Also, the corner where Zimmy ran into the Annies and Renard wasn't real. That was already inside the flashback.

Wow, this is really close to my mental image of what happened as well!  I am beginning to think that Zimmy has "matured" somewhat, is more self confident, (somewhat) at ease, in a generally better mood

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2255
(and following pages...)

and has come to accept herself and her "gifts" a bit, and finally taken Annie up on her suggestion to learn how to control Zimmingham to a degree.  

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=461

She has more control about pulling herself out of the episodes (hence Gamma being less worried about it when speaking with Renard),

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2417

and then leaving Zimm-Land almost at a casual Gamma remark

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2428
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2429 

but also some ability to control Z-land's "reality distortion field".  Zimms knew what she was doing when she remerged the Annies...

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2432

and I figure she used Zimm-kand's distortion field to fuse the Annies back together.  Unclear if it is a permanent fix though!

edit:  added her casual exit from Zimmingham

[silicondream]

Been a while, sorry it took so long, but: Ysengrin!

Apr 27, 2021 13:46:25 GMT maxptc said:

Im a pretty big believer that people here are notorious for allowing the magic animals to get away with attempted murder and other moral failings towards Annie while judging the humans super harshly for less, like Paz gossiping.

And that doesn’t really work for me, in a story where myth and legend collide with the human. Most of the human characters have their own legendary antecedents; Paz is a St. Francis riff, Tony is a frothy blend of Lancelot, Prometheus and Wooden Tony, and Eglamore is That Guy.

Everyone here is a person, but also a story trying to be real. They're not all equally dangerous, but they can all be judged.

Apr 28, 2021 4:17:45 GMT foxurus said:

This is incredibly unfair and lets Coyote off the hook far too much. Loup is equally Coyote and Ysengrin (if not more Coyote), and his sexual advances are certainly inherited from Coyote.

Loup’s sexuality may be mostly inherited from Coyote, but his lack of restraint is not. Coyote makes advances toward Annie on the pages you cite, but he accepts her refusal, even allows her to hit back if she wants. He plays at intimidation, but concedes if she stares him down.  Coyote is being a flirt towards Annie, albeit a doggish and pushy one, because he always leaves her a way to take control. (In fact, the only time I can think of Coyote demanding something from Annie is when he forbade her to mention his tooth.)

Ysengrin concedes nothing when Y targets Annie, unless forced. Fortunately, Y’s not usually interested in her that way--Y was never interested in Surma either, and human bodies do nothing for Ym. It’s only Annie's firepower that really attracts Ym. Still, look at this and tell me there’s no subtext.  Y is the potential violator.

He didn't know Coyote was taking his memories or filling his mind with holes.

I don’t see how Ysengrin couldn’t know. Y was aware that Ys mental degeneration was happening, and Y knew that Ys physical degeneration was due to Coyote’s power. Y knew that Coyote had Ym under restraint, because Annie and Y had an entire conversation about it. Who else could be the Culprit?

Though a Trickster, Coyote has always been very honest with Ysengrin. He has to be; Y already works extra-hard at deluding Ymself.

Coyote is objectively the most villainous character, more than anyone else in the comic could possibly be

Well...sure. Coyote is objectively the most everything character, because Coyote is the wisest! and most powerful!. He can effect or avert anything, therefore he's responsible for all evils. Gunnerkrigg’s theodicy is “...get it? Haha!” As Tom has mentioned, Coyote’s done unforgivable things in the past, and I’m sure he did them with a smile.

But my claim was that Ysengrin was more dangerous to Annie than Coyote is. Coyote’s a dick, but he treasures the people of the Forest and Court alike. Coyote nourishes the Forest, protects the Court, enables their inhabitants to transition from one to the other, never lies, and never breaks a promise.

Annie is Coyote’s pet firebird, and he treasures her most carefully. He let the Tic-Tocs rescue her before destroying it; he taught her wisdom and etheric skills; he directly protected her from wisps and Ysengrin; he warned the elves to treat her well; he shielded her from the wrath of the Headmaster; he talked Tony into letting her return to the Forest so he could check up on her etheric state. Heck, even after Coyote’s death he was still manipulating Loup into treating Annie more kindly.

So in this story, Coyote is more hero than villain. Ysengrin is not. Y was casually savaging Hum-Ants before Coyote ever arrived, for no other reason than scorn of their weakness. It’s only through Coyote’s intimidation, cajoling, and beatdowns that Ysengrin is even temporarily capable of treating Ys lessers like people. And even with all that, even with those Y loves most, Y periodically snaps and tries to tear them apart. At which point, the only remaining treatment option is a frontal Coyotomy.

and has also orchestrated events which put Annie (and others!) in extreme physical danger (also seen here and here) and caused emotional anguish.

There’s no serious danger for Annie when Coyote’s around, though. He can and does shut down Ysengrin in the blink of an eye when Y goes too far. Of course he can’t do that after he’s dead--except that he kinda does anyway--but who was it who chose to kill him?

As for emotional anguish--yes, definitely. Except that it was more about Coyote allowing Ysengrin to cause Annie emotional anguish, because--as other adults pointed out--Annie needed to stop blindly trusting Ym before something worse happened. Coyote tried to explain Ysengrin’s issue the non-traumatic way, but Annie didn’t listen. So Coyote dropped her a warning, and then let Ym teach her first-hand.

The one who throws you into a cage with a rabid dog is at fault for your injuries.

First, we don’t fault the dog, because we kill the dog instead. Moral systems vary, but in most, those who are not capable of being moral agents are not deserving of much moral consideration. You don’t have a human-level right to life unless you can at least pretend to be humane.

Second, Ysengrin is not a rabid dog, nor any other kind of dumb animal. Y may look wolfish, but Y talks and schemes and makes moral decisions like a man. After all, Y was dreamed up by humans, an allegory for human failings--even worse, Y was a corrupt priest, a monk turned bishop. Y has sought and exploited Ys power over others, whilst hypocritically claiming solitude and...purity.

See, Coyote is both trickster and ruler. And divine tricksters and rulers share certain things in common. They love to teach you a lesson. They love to do this by paying Ye back for Yr sins in kind. And because they are impartial--from a certain point of view--they will do this even if Ye’ve sinned against a third party.

Renard tried to teach Ysengrin to be a better person, but was too weak to be acknowledged by Ym. Coyote takes a more forceful, and scrupulously just, approach. Y kill Hum-Ants; Coyote mauls Ye. Y try to pull rank on Hum-Ants; Coyote mocks Ye. Y demand power beyond mY ability to control, and use it to hurt others and glorify mYself; Coyote gives it to Ye, but warns Ye repeatedly and explicitly that Ye are not deserving and it will destroy Ye. Y will never forget mY undying grudge against Hum-Ants; Coyote makes Ye forget.

Of course, the impartiality of tricksters and rulers is viewed differently. Tricksters are obnoxious meddlers; kings are Just judges. (Overruled! Call for an etymology check.) Annie prefers to see Coyote as a trickster; so far, Ysengrin has chosen Judge, and enforces judgment in Coyote’s name. Yet Y will not Ymself obey Coyote’s teachings: to be kind to Hum-Ants, to think before Ye act, to forgive insults, to abandon power Ye do not deserve. HYpocrite! Are Ye not to blame for the verdict?

And he was with Coyote for strength, not power. There is no power in being someone's tool.

Y disagree! There’s plenty of power once the tool devours its wielder.

Ysengrin’s a Sith. Ys preferred path to power is to find the strongest douche around, leech off them for a while, then betray and replace them. It never works for long. It can’t work for long. But Yader never learns, until the last.

One could also quite easily argue he stayed with Coyote due to the emotional abuse Coyote inflicted upon him.

I don’t think so. Renard abuses Ysengrin; the other beasts and humans abuse Ysengrin. In return, Y despise them all. Smiling.

Y stay with Coyote because of Coyote’s power. Because Coyote knows how to make it stick. Because Y approve of effective abuse.

Because Y’m a villain.

[maxptc]

May 10, 2021 2:09:25 GMT silicondream said:

Been a while, sorry it took so long, but: Ysengrin!

Apr 27, 2021 13:20:56 GMT todd said:

Im a pretty big believer that people here are notorious for allowing the magic animals to get away with attempted murder and other moral failings towards Annie while judging the humans super harshly for less, like Paz gossiping.

And that doesn’t really work for me, in a story where myth and legend collide with the human. Most of the human characters have their own legendary antecedents; Paz is a St. Francis riff, Tony is a frothy blend of Lancelot, Prometheus and Wooden Tony, and Eglamore is That Guy.

Everyone here is a person, but also a story trying to be real. They're not all equally dangerous, but they can all be judged.

You quoted Todd for something I posted instead of me and my first thought was "oh God did I plagiarize Todd". But almost had a heart attack and I don't know why...

[silicondream]

JYYpers!  Sorry about that.  Fixed, I think.

[saardvark]

May 10, 2021 2:09:25 GMT silicondream said:

Been a while, sorry it took so long, but: Ysengrin!

Apr 27, 2021 13:46:25 GMT maxptc said:

Im a pretty big believer that people here are notorious for allowing the magic animals to get away with attempted murder and other moral failings towards Annie while judging the humans super harshly for less, like Paz gossiping.

And that doesn’t really work for me, in a story where myth and legend collide with the human. Most of the human characters have their own legendary antecedents; Paz is a St. Francis riff, Tony is a frothy blend of Lancelot, Prometheus and Wooden Tony, and Eglamore is That Guy.

Everyone here is a person, but also a story trying to be real. They're not all equally dangerous, but they can all be judged.

Coyote is objectively the most villainous character, more than anyone else in the comic could possibly be

Well...sure. Coyote is objectively the most everything character, because Coyote is the wisest! and most powerful!. He can effect or avert anything, therefore he's responsible for all evils. Gunnerkrigg’s theodicy is “...get it? Haha!” As Tom has mentioned, Coyote’s done unforgivable things in the past, and I’m sure he did them with a smile.

But my claim was that Ysengrin was more dangerous to Annie than Coyote is. Coyote’s a dick, but he treasures the people of the Forest and Court alike. Coyote nourishes the Forest, protects the Court, enables their inhabitants to transition from one to the other, never lies, and never breaks a promise.

Annie is Coyote’s pet firebird, and he treasures her most carefully. He let the Tic-Tocs rescue her before destroying it; he taught her wisdom and etheric skills; he directly protected her from wisps and Ysengrin; he warned the elves to treat her well; he shielded her from the wrath of the Headmaster; he talked Tony into letting her return to the Forest so he could check up on her etheric state. Heck, even after Coyote’s death he was still manipulating Loup into treating Annie more kindly.

So in this story, Coyote is more hero than villain. Ysengrin is not. Y was casually savaging Hum-Ants before Coyote ever arrived, for no other reason than scorn of their weakness. It’s only through Coyote’s intimidation, cajoling, and beatdowns that Ysengrin is even temporarily capable of treating Ys lessers like people. And even with all that, even with those Y loves most, Y periodically snaps and tries to tear them apart. At which point, the only remaining treatment option is a frontal Coyotomy.

and has also orchestrated events which put Annie (and others!) in extreme physical danger (also seen here and here) and caused emotional anguish.

There’s no serious danger for Annie when Coyote’s around, though. He can and does shut down Ysengrin in the blink of an eye when Y goes too far. Of course he can’t do that after he’s dead--except that he kinda does anyway--but who was it who chose to kill him?

As for emotional anguish--yes, definitely. Except that it was more about Coyote allowing Ysengrin to cause Annie emotional anguish, because--as other adults pointed out--Annie needed to stop blindly trusting Ym before something worse happened. Coyote tried to explain Ysengrin’s issue the non-traumatic way, but Annie didn’t listen. So Coyote dropped her a warning, and then let Ym teach her first-hand.

The one who throws you into a cage with a rabid dog is at fault for your injuries.

First, we don’t fault the dog, because we kill the dog instead. Moral systems vary, but in most, those who are not capable of being moral agents are not deserving of much moral consideration. You don’t have a human-level right to life unless you can at least pretend to be humane.

Second, Ysengrin is not a rabid dog, nor any other kind of dumb animal. Y may look wolfish, but Y talks and schemes and makes moral decisions like a man. After all, Y was dreamed up by humans, an allegory for human failings--even worse, Y was a corrupt priest, a monk turned bishop. Y has sought and exploited Ys power over others, whilst hypocritically claiming solitude and...purity.

See, Coyote is both trickster and ruler. And divine tricksters and rulers share certain things in common. They love to teach you a lesson. They love to do this by paying Ye back for Yr sins in kind. And because they are impartial--from a certain point of view--they will do this even if Ye’ve sinned against a third party.

Renard tried to teach Ysengrin to be a better person, but was too weak to be acknowledged by Ym. Coyote takes a more forceful, and scrupulously just, approach. Y kill Hum-Ants; Coyote mauls Ye. Y try to pull rank on Hum-Ants; Coyote mocks Ye. Y demand power beyond mY ability to control, and use it to hurt others and glorify mYself; Coyote gives it to Ye, but warns Ye repeatedly and explicitly that Ye are not deserving and it will destroy Ye. Y will never forget mY undying grudge against Hum-Ants; Coyote makes Ye forget.

Of course, the impartiality of tricksters and rulers is viewed differently. Tricksters are obnoxious meddlers; kings are Just judges. (Overruled! Call for an etymology check.) Annie prefers to see Coyote as a trickster; so far, Ysengrin has chosen Judge, and enforces judgment in Coyote’s name. Yet Y will not Ymself obey Coyote’s teachings: to be kind to Hum-Ants, to think before Ye act, to forgive insults, to abandon power Ye do not deserve. HYpocrite! Are Ye not to blame for the verdict?

And he was with Coyote for strength, not power. There is no power in being someone's tool.

Y disagree! There’s plenty of power once the tool devours its wielder.

Ysengrin’s a Sith. Ys preferred path to power is to find the strongest douche around, leech off them for a while, then betray and replace them. It never works for long. It can’t work for long. But Yader never learns, until the last.

One could also quite easily argue he stayed with Coyote due to the emotional abuse Coyote inflicted upon him.

I don’t think so. Renard abuses Ysengrin; the other beasts and humans abuse Ysengrin. In return, Y despise them all. Smiling.

Y stay with Coyote because of Coyote’s power. Because Coyote knows how to make it stick. Because Y approve of effective abuse.

Because Y’m a villain.

I like the insight on the character's archetypes, but I think some of this is a bit a bit easy on Coyote and a bit harsh on Ys.  Ys hates most hum-ants because weak, but he has grown affection for Annie and has become a mentor/teacher/pseudo-father figure to her, at first because Coyote wanted it, but later because he genuinely wanted to.  I think he is a danger to Annie ONLY because of Coyote destabilizing his brain by turning it into a Swiss cheese of memory holes.  He is always regretful after a "rage" episode where he threatens her.

[pyradonis]

May 11, 2021 0:39:15 GMT saardvark said:

I like the insight on the character's archetypes, but I think some of this is a bit a bit easy on Coyote and a bit harsh on Ys.  Ys hates most hum-ants because weak, but he has grown affection for Annie and has become a mentor/teacher/pseudo-father figure to her, at first because Coyote wanted it, but later because he genuinely wanted to.  I think he is a danger to Annie ONLY because of Coyote destabilizing his brain by turning it into a Swiss cheese of memory holes.  He is always regretful after a "rage" episode where he threatens her.

Also, each of these times I can think of (except maybe Loup screaming about ripping her apart if she doubts Ysengrin's love for her, if that counts) Coyote had manipulated events to provoke an outburst. At least one time, Ysengrin realized it as well.

[silicondream]

May 11, 2021 0:39:15 GMT saardvark said:

I like the insight on the character's archetypes, but I think some of this is a bit a bit easy on Coyote and a bit harsh on Ys.

Well, it's barely possible that I got carried away doing Y-voices and lost my, er, objectivity.

But probably not. I am very wise and clever and powerful, after all.

Ys hates most hum-ants because weak, but he has grown affection for Annie and has become a mentor/teacher/pseudo-father figure to her, at first because Coyote wanted it, but later because he genuinely wanted to.

Yes, definitely, but I don't think he would ever have gotten there without Coyote's careful management. And he still hasn't learned to love or even respect the weak; he loves Annie mostly because she's fearless and can cast buffs and Fire 2.

 I think he is a danger to Annie ONLY because of Coyote destabilizing his brain by turning it into a Swiss cheese of memory holes.  

We must agree to disagree, then. Coyote's goal is to "temper Ysgenrin's rage", and he only seems to steal Y's memories after Y makes a wrong choice. I think he'd always be a danger to Annie, love or not, and Coyote's memory manipulations were the only things "resetting" him back to a state before his pride and resentment permanently poisoned their relationship.

He is always regretful after a "rage" episode where he threatens her.

You know, I was going to grant this and say something about how regret can't undo murder, but then I looked back and...when is he regretful, exactly? I've seen him be confused about why he did it, and I've seen him acknowledge (and presumably lament) that Annie's disappointed in him, and I'm sure he'd miss her terribly if he killed her. But I can't recall Ysengrin ever acknowledging that attacking or threatening her life over a moment of anxiety or a point of pride is the wrong choice.

Feel free to find a counterexample, but I think you can see this particularly well when Annie talks to his shade inside Loup. Annie says "You attacked the Court!" and Ysengrin essentially replies "I didn't mean to at first...but then I found out all this secret stuff and I just had to." Because that's still how he thinks, even after centuries alongside Coyote and the people of the Forest. Compromise is not an option unless someone stronger forces you into it.

And again, mythologically, that's kind of the point of him. He's "an allegory of human stupidity" not because he's never cunning or perceptive, but because he's almost incapable of changing his mind. He offends, Renard plays a trick on him in return, he fails to learn his lesson, repeat for eternity. Even Renard himself has gotten bored with their roles by the time Coyote shows up; he's matured past the need to constantly meddle with others. But Ysgenrin doesn't mature.

May 11, 2021 14:11:50 GMT pyradonis said:

Also, each of these times I can think of (except maybe Loup screaming about ripping her apart if she doubts Ysengrin's love for her, if that counts) Coyote had manipulated events to provoke an outburst. At least one time, Ysengrin realized it as well.

Absolutely; Coyote manipulates everything. But he also orchestrates Annie's escape from those situations, which is why I say that Annie's never in real physical danger when he's around. (Barring, perhaps, their first proxy encounter at the Bridge--but now we know that Coyote was present and adjusting things there too.) Coyote turns everything into a lesson, albeit sometimes a baffling and terrifying one.

And in terms of Ysengrin's character, I don't so much care about whether Coyote provoked him, as whether his responses were well-aimed and proportional to the provocations. And they weren't. Coyote screws with a lot of people, but they don't all try to tear a little girl's face off in response.

[saardvark]

May 13, 2021 12:32:10 GMT silicondream said:

May 11, 2021 0:39:15 GMT saardvark said:

I like the insight on the character's archetypes, but I think some of this is a bit a bit easy on Coyote and a bit harsh on Ys.

Well, it's barely possible that I got carried away doing Y-voices and lost my, er, objectivity.

But probably not. I am very wise and clever and powerful, after all.

Ys hates most hum-ants because weak, but he has grown affection for Annie and has become a mentor/teacher/pseudo-father figure to her, at first because Coyote wanted it, but later because he genuinely wanted to.

Yes, definitely, but I don't think he would ever have gotten there without Coyote's careful management. And he still hasn't learned to love or even respect the weak; he loves Annie mostly because she's fearless and can cast buffs and Fire 2.

 I think he is a danger to Annie ONLY because of Coyote destabilizing his brain by turning it into a Swiss cheese of memory holes.  

We must agree to disagree, then. Coyote's goal is to "temper Ysgenrin's rage", and he only seems to steal Y's memories after Y makes a wrong choice. I think he'd always be a danger to Annie, love or not, and Coyote's memory manipulations were the only things "resetting" him back to a state before his pride and resentment permanently poisoned their relationship.

He is always regretful after a "rage" episode where he threatens her.

You know, I was going to grant this and say something about how regret can't undo murder, but then I looked back and...when is he regretful, exactly? I've seen him be confused about why he did it, and I've seen him acknowledge (and presumably lament) that Annie's disappointed in him, and I'm sure he'd miss her terribly if he killed her. But I can't recall Ysengrin ever acknowledging that attacking or threatening her life over a moment of anxiety or a point of pride is the wrong choice.

Feel free to find a counterexample, but I think you can see this particularly well when Annie talks to his shade inside Loup. Annie says "You attacked the Court!" and Ysengrin essentially replies "I didn't mean to at first...but then I found out all this secret stuff and I just had to." Because that's still how he thinks, even after centuries alongside Coyote and the people of the Forest. Compromise is not an option unless someone stronger forces you into it.

And again, mythologically, that's kind of the point of him. He's "an allegory of human stupidity" not because he's never cunning or perceptive, but because he's almost incapable of changing his mind. He offends, Renard plays a trick on him in return, he fails to learn his lesson, repeat for eternity. Even Renard himself has gotten bored with their roles by the time Coyote shows up; he's matured past the need to constantly meddle with others. But Ysgenrin doesn't mature.

May 11, 2021 14:11:50 GMT pyradonis said:

Also, each of these times I can think of (except maybe Loup screaming about ripping her apart if she doubts Ysengrin's love for her, if that counts) Coyote had manipulated events to provoke an outburst. At least one time, Ysengrin realized it as well.

Absolutely; Coyote manipulates everything. But he also orchestrates Annie's escape from those situations, which is why I say that Annie's never in real physical danger when he's around. (Barring, perhaps, their first proxy encounter at the Bridge--but now we know that Coyote was present and adjusting things there too.) Coyote turns everything into a lesson, albeit sometimes a baffling and terrifying one.

And in terms of Ysengrin's character, I don't so much care about whether Coyote provoked him, as whether his responses were well-aimed and proportional to the provocations. And they weren't. Coyote screws with a lot of people, but they don't all try to tear a little girl's face off in response.

I mostly agree with what you're saying, except I think Annie is somewhat an exceptional case hum-ant for Ys.  He may not say it in words ("I regret my attempted attack on the girl..") here
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1088
 I read the look on Ys' face in panels 4, 6 & 7 as totally anguished (and confused) regret.  He loves and respects (to a degree) Annie,
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1260
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1579
and finds her worthy of his mentoring and insight
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=828
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1261
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1262
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1579
despite still thinking she is weak and has much still to learn  
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1240
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1578

As for the source of Ys rages, which Jones notes are getting worse...  
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=286
we may disagree on cause and effect.  I think that yes, Ys has always been angry towards hum-ants for their disrespect and threat to the Forest, but I wonder if it isn't getting worse *because* Coyote is cratering his mind, destabilizing its structure.  He cant learn from mistakes because Coyote doesnt let him even remember them so that he could reflect on them.  
I think Coyote is working on multiple levels here. I agree that he is short term working to "temper Ys' rage" (which also prevents Ys from learning from mistakes!), but longer term he is storing all these "rage moments" for the day when they can all be flooded back at once, overwhelming any mental barriers so that the now totally uncontrollably enraged Ys makes the *fatal* mistake of rage-"killing" Coyote himself (as per Coyote's intent).  Coyote has been planning for that - his own death, and Loup's formation - for a loooong time.....