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Post by TBeholder on Apr 26, 2021 14:54:52 GMT
He should at least have offered Jones a seat. He would have to remember that's a thing humans do. I sympathize with the yearning to take part in life very much, but Tony has to seek help if he wants to accomplish that. He can't open this cage at his own. And cannot ask for help for the same reason. The key is behind the door. As usual. |
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Post by mitten on Apr 26, 2021 15:51:24 GMT
Is does kinda beg the question.. Tony, even if it's that hard to talk to Antimony about this.. could you maybe write the poor girl a letter or something? If you're aware of the problem, let her know you know and that it's not her fault. C'mon... Yes, I was about to say this same thing. Or a prerecorded video message, or talk to a person such as Donald whom he can talk to and tell *him* what to say/write. Anthony is supposed to be of genius intelligence, and though I know that doesn't always equal emotional intelligence I would have at least thought him capable of seeking out an alternate solution to his communication problem seeing that he knows he has a problem. Mind you, I don't think Surma is entirely blameless in this whole dysfunctional family setup either. She knew what Tony was like when she married him, and unless he outright lied to her about his inability to be a good father in one on one situations with Annie, I think once she knew she was dying she might have also thought to explain a few things to her daughter. If it wasn't deemed suitable to do it at once, maybe a letter to be opened in a few years time would have been good. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 26, 2021 16:13:52 GMT
So, what we've learned today has basically been confirmation of some suspicions – he doesn't want to be like this; he has no choice in the matter. It's not like a series of gradations between being like an automaton and being a human; it's like a lightswitch, on or off. He can in fact be himself when alone. And Annie is an exception to the rule, an unforeseen exception that torments him. But, as oneandoneis2 has already said, couldn't he write her a letter? One would think that he'd have thought of that, though; perhaps the cage descends around him even at the thought of interacting with her. But ... fine, dictate the letter to someone else, unless it happens then too. I suspect it's ... complicated, as things with Tony often are. He might feel this is a problem that he has to resolve himself, perhaps also that no one else can help him even if he wanted them to. He might not want to burden other folks, even or especially those he cares about, with his personal difficulties (not seeing, of course, that his issues cause problems for them, which is reminiscent of this). He might be ashamed to admit to others something he might consider a weakness or even just a difference. He might not want to deal with potential emotional responses from persons with whom he might share his struggles (being the recipient of others' outpoured feelings can be emotionally exhausting for someone like Tony). He might even simply not want people to pity him. But if he wants to take part in life with others - messy, emotional, and rewarding as it is - he's going to have to work through whatever obstacles are applicable. Much easier said than done, I know. I want to see him succeed. |
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ffkonoko
New Member
I've been a New Member for 9 years.
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Post by ffkonoko on Apr 26, 2021 16:31:16 GMT
Even in the "real world," Tony's appearance has always seemed remarkably variable to me. There's his age and facial injuries, of course, but he also shifts through an unusual range of artistic styles even by Tom's standards. Always represented, never really seen. I know you were linking them to comment on the art style, but I really appreciated the moment of comparison to another time Tony opened up. And you're right, he changes a lot. And a combination of the man drowning in sorrow, guilt, and then further compounding it with MORE reasons to be guilty...not the kind of state of mind to reach out and ask for help, no matter how obviously it is needed. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 26, 2021 16:38:58 GMT
...or talk to a person such as Donald whom he can talk to and tell *him* what to say/write. Somewhat repeating myself from another thread, I wonder if Don, as probably Tony's oldest and closest friend, ever tried to explore Tony's antisocial behavior with him. On the other hand, we know that a head-on approach never really works with Tony. I would be quite interested in learning more of the backstory between Don and Tony and exploring more of their friendship. |
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Post by Igniz on Apr 26, 2021 16:55:54 GMT
Could it be possible that Tony's mind cage (or Tony himself) is also part of Coyote's whole plan? Or that Tony is (gulp!) a part of Coyote?  In any event, note that Tony has no neck--his head is separate from his body. I know that feeling. It could very well just be a stylistic choice, as in  though, knowing Tom, it's hard to say.  I *think* the bars behind Antimony are just the shadow of Tony's cage. If so, the shadow should also be projected on Annie's head. By looking at the left, gray side of the vignette, and taking into account the "in fact, it was worse" line, it seems to me as if, in addition to be trapped inside his own, Tony's mind also sees Annie as if she was in another cage in relation to him, further separating the two and making communication with his daughter far more difficult than with other people even when alone with her. Would you offer This Guy a seat? Pretty much the same stuff, but Jones's more passive and ain't so creepy. After all, we've already seen Tony opening his own Gate of Truth while performing a human transmutation, sacrificing his right arm in exchange, though Kat has crafted him an automail arm since then. |
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Post by ohthatone on Apr 26, 2021 16:59:37 GMT
So, what we've learned today has basically been confirmation of some suspicions – he doesn't want to be like this; he has no choice in the matter. It's not like a series of gradations between being like an automaton and being a human; it's like a lightswitch, on or off. He can in fact be himself when alone. And Annie is an exception to the rule, an unforeseen exception that torments him. But, as oneandoneis2 has already said, couldn't he write her a letter? One would think that he'd have thought of that, though; perhaps the cage descends around him even at the thought of interacting with her. But ... fine, dictate the letter to someone else, unless it happens then too. I suspect it's ... complicated, as things with Tony often are. He might feel this is a problem that he has to resolve himself, perhaps also that no one else can help him even if he wanted them to. He might not want to burden other folks, even or especially those he cares about, with his personal difficulties (not seeing, of course, that his issues cause problems for them, which is reminiscent of this). He might be ashamed to admit to others something he might consider a weakness or even just a difference. He might not want to deal with potential emotional responses from persons with whom he might share his struggles (being the recipient of others' outpoured feelings can be emotionally exhausting for someone like Tony). He might even simply not want people to pity him. But if he wants to take part in life with others - messy, emotional, and rewarding as it is - he's going to have to work through whatever obstacles are applicable. Much easier said than done, I know. I want to see him succeed. I wish I could give more likes to this. This speaks to my struggles, to certain people I love and their struggles-- why cant you just do x? It some cases that works. Suck it up, do what needs to be done. But sometimes that can also equal "have you tried NOT being emotionally constipated?" And I'm sorry, it just doesnt always work like that. I've always been socially anxious and I even joined an improv troupe to try to overcome it. Its definitely helped but it's still there driving many of my (in)actions. I've always loved tony as a character so I hope he succeeds too, whatever form that takes. |
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Post by wies on Apr 26, 2021 17:36:45 GMT
I sympathize with the yearning to take part in life very much, but Tony has to seek help if he wants to accomplish that. He can't open this cage at his own. And cannot ask for help for the same reason. The key is behind the door. As usual. (this started as a reaction to you, but it became a general contemplation of Anthony's character and the responsibility he still has despite the mindcage. So it is not a reaction specifically to you. Also, this is based on some speculation on the nature of the mindcage, so a few assumptions are made here) That is not the reason he can't ask for help. Whether a figure of speech or something etherical, I think the mindcage is a complicated metaphor for a deeply ingrained instinctive self-warding from too much intimate interaction. So ingrained it appears even if he consciously doesn't want it. But it doesn't mean its hold is absolute. I believe this page's sixth panel shows him fighting against it and that the next two pages show him being overwhelmed by his severe anxiety and running away back into the cage (It functions both as his emotional jail and refuge because he seems to conflate his anxiety with his protective measures against being overwhelmed by that very anxiety. Hence why I called it a complicated metaphor, heh) My point is that while, yeah, it is difficult for him to ask for help, he has shown to be capable enough to interact enough to lead the life of a functioning adult. He has managed to become surgeon, to hold a position high enough to convince the shadow men to keep away from Kat's lab. It is understandable that he seems to perceive the cage as all-powerful but that is not the case. Now, of course I don't expect him to immediately unload all his baggage at the first person he finds, but I think he possess the mental fortitude to even just coldy state he would like to talk with someone about his troubles and try to start from there. That is what he still can do, taking that first step: asking for help. Not saying it is easy, mind, but it is doable. The reasons he doesn't ask seem twofold: because he rightfully distrusts his current environment as has been pointed out, but also his extreme self-loathing as being in his own words " a complete failure". That last part is important because it is a genuine flaw of his personality that has more than one time devastated him. (Bit unrelated, but the sixth panel here shows how livid he can be when not constrained by his cage.) 1) It has led him to believe he could cure something that seems inherent to fire elementals (which, not that bad to be fair, you never know until you try, right?) 2) but after that seemed incurable he didn't seek out ways to get help or communicate his mental trouble to Antimony (via a letter or something recorded as some people here pointed it out) I believe that was due to self-loathing because of his broken promise and that he proved unable to communicate in a normal manner to his daughter. But, well, no matter how sympathetic and understandable it might be, often if not always self-loathing is another form of self-importance. Those things aren't reason enough for his inaction in that regard. 3) After Surma's death, he still couldn't let it go that he failed and went on searching an answer. And so instead of trying to find a way to co-exist with Antimony, he dropped her immediately off at Court. After her mother's death. Again, understandable. At that point he too has been aware he has been shown incapable to attend to her emotional needs (He likely was also in grief). So why keeping burden her with a shitty dad? Better find a place that while shady at least can become a supporting network and accepts her etherically abilities. So while it is not the worst solution he could have found, it is still a form of abandonment which probably caused her being so shut-in at the start of the comic. Because he couldn't prioritize his parenting above still finding a answer. (Though to be fair, he might have intended to help her with an answer as well later on) And he paid a heavy price for it. And it could have been worse with it having involuntarily killed his daughter. The reason I am all laying this out is because while I recognize Anthony's mindcage, whether its origin in the make-up of his brain, a traumatic youth, the ether (or a combination of all three, depending on how all this shakes out), as a genuinely heavy burden he has been saddled with for perhaps his whole life, it also doesn't serve as absolvation for the things he could still have done better and did not. Not all his actions are due to his anxiety, some are due to how he reacted to it. But this all shows how complicated and thorny responsibility in the context of mental illness is. It is easy both in-comic and out-comic to completely condemn him for his failures. (The irony of course that he partakes in this too) But it is also easy to not hold him responsible because he was genuinely overwhelmed and has sincerly felt caged. But both these ways of thinking cannot mend him and his relationship with Antimony. The first dismisses the turmoil and misery in his mind, the second his agency. The first would leave him languishing in his mental hell without learning him a way to actually and healthy cope with his anxiety, the second would mean he wouldn't have to apologize to Antimony and stop striving to become a better father meaning elevating his pain above the pain he caused her. To restore that relationship, it's gotta be both. His pain and burden need to be recognized as well his failures to cope with them and the damage he inflicted. Which means he is a tangled character. Suffering and causing suffering in one. And this dichotomy gets brought to the story's forefront repeatedly. And our brain that loves to simplify and abstract things struggles with this and the gut cannot deliver a sound assessment of him. So it is no wonder he is the most controversial character of the comic, even compared with characters that brought Antimony in mortal danger too like Renard or Coyote. Poor Tony! He likely will never get a top ten place of a popularity poll. But well, it would have been a very awkward affair for him anyway to stand at such a public place. (Also, Annie does a lot of the same exact stuff I am mentioning here, but with the difference that she knew a parent loved her (She was never in doubt of Surma's love for her) which may be something Tony didn't have, and was without debilitating anxiety able to gather herself a supporting network that called her out and provided a way to vent when she was making a cage of her own. As much Gamma stated Annie saved Kat from a dark path, the reverse might be true too.) |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 26, 2021 17:51:08 GMT
i'm full speed (actually 90%) in that Kat is responsible for his Mind Cage like someone Wild Spec'd whoa. What if Tony made a deal/received a reprise from This Other Ancient Guy and interpreter and was mindcaged as Clippy proposed first (panel 3)? (or will make in the future, and retro-applied by time shenanigans? Like, in some future Annie is at risk of dying, but Tony makes a deal to save her, and the Jailer says "Ok, but then you would never be able to show her love", and ping, Tony as a child is mindfkd, I mean, mindcaged from that day on) Highly unlikely, given that 1) What the two of them are talking about consists of a mind restriction and a physical jail, and 2) it's purpose is to make the jailed person unable to cause trouble. Tony, however, is absolutely capable of causing trouble.
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 26, 2021 18:56:10 GMT
And cannot ask for help for the same reason. The key is behind the door. As usual. "GREAT STUFF HERE" (Also, Annie does a lot of the same exact stuff I am mentioning here, but with the difference that she knew a parent loved her (She was never in doubt of Surma's love for her) which may be something Tony didn't have, and was without debilitating anxiety able to gather herself a supporting network that called her out and provided a way to vent when she was making a cage of her own. As much Gamma stated Annie saved Kat from a dark path, the reverse might be true too.) I wanted to say two things. 1) Great post. That was a nice read and nice analysis. 2) I'm not sure with Annie it was a problem as much as a defense mechanism. It's not that Annie was at times incapable of being intimate with people as much as she was protecting herself from getting hurt. We can see a lot of this in the beginnings of the comic and how Annie opens up with Kat, and eventually others as well the more she interacts with the creatures from the Forest. Plus, Annie is unconsciously extremely empathetic. Whether that is an etheric/fire elemental influence or something unique about Annie, I think is incompatible with being the way Anthony is. |
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Post by mitten on Apr 26, 2021 19:07:53 GMT
"GREAT STUFF HERE" (Also, Annie does a lot of the same exact stuff I am mentioning here, but with the difference that she knew a parent loved her (She was never in doubt of Surma's love for her) which may be something Tony didn't have, and was without debilitating anxiety able to gather herself a supporting network that called her out and provided a way to vent when she was making a cage of her own. As much Gamma stated Annie saved Kat from a dark path, the reverse might be true too.) I wanted to say two things. 1) Great post. That was a nice read and nice analysis. 2) I'm not sure with Annie it was a problem as much as a defense mechanism. It's not that Annie was at times incapable of being intimate with people as much as she was protecting herself from getting hurt. We can see a lot of this in the beginnings of the comic and how Annie opens up with Kat, and eventually others as well the more she interacts with the creatures from the Forest. Plus, Annie is unconsciously extremely empathetic. Whether that is an etheric/fire elemental influence or something unique about Annie, I think is incompatible with being the way Anthony is. Now, that makes me wonder - if Annie's empathy is etherial, and if Tony's mind cage is also etherial, might it perhaps be one repelling the other, like two magnets? It doesn't explain why it was different with Forest Annie, but otherwise I could see it being somehow the case. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 26, 2021 19:11:03 GMT
After Surma's death, he still couldn't let it go that he failed and went on searching an answer. And so instead of trying to find a way to co-exist with Antimony, he dropped her immediately off at Court. After her mother's death. Again, understandable. At that point he too has been aware he has been shown incapable to attend to her emotional needs (He likely was also in grief). So why keeping burden her with a shitty dad? Better find a place that while shady at least can become a supporting network and accepts her etherically abilities. So while it is not the worst solution he could have found, it is still a form of abandonment which probably caused her being so shut-in at the start of the comic. Because he couldn't prioritize his parenting above still finding a answer. To the many excellent points already stated, I want to add that Tony leaving Antimony with the Court allowed her to become acquainted with the Donlans, probably Tony's (and Surma's) closest friends. I wonder if he had that in his (albeit clouded by guilt and grief) mind. If so, this arrangement should have been formalized by designating Don and Anja as Antimony's godparents. But maybe this contingency never occurred to Tony, or Surma earlier for that matter. I find this a bit peculiar considering that we're not aware of either Tony or Surma having any other relatives able to care for their daughter if needed. Given Tony's self-assessment as a complete failure, he likely felt that leaving Antimony at the Court was the least-bad solution given his circumstances. After all, in his eyes, how could she live with the man that killed her mother? |
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 26, 2021 19:19:16 GMT
By the way, I just learned that April is Autism Awareness Month (apologies if I forgot or missed an earlier mention) - an interesting coincidence (if that's all it is) given the current storyline.
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Post by fia on Apr 26, 2021 19:41:37 GMT
I just want to say two quick things -
(1) Sometimes if you or your loved one have been the way they are for as long as they/you can remember, the alternative behaviors are just not imaginable as genuine possibilities. They're just not. I've been trying to have phone conversations with my dad last more than 5 minutes for most of my life. It's not really possible. He loves me – he's often the one who calls first – but he just can't. And he will never talk about why, either. The barrier on expressing his feelings is wholesale, medium doesn't matter. The only form he has to express his feelings are his actions. He will buy gifts, or run errands, or do favors, or provide help, he will send me links to ten articles a day on whatever topic he's interested in at that time if I let him, but he absolutely cannot do Conversation.
He also has an innate distrust of therapists. He was married to one for 3 decades and still thinks they're hacks. So that's a bust.
(2) "Why not just do x" isn't so easy when people have deeply ingrained (chronic) mental illness. Like Annie asking Zimmy to harness her powers, it's enough to tear your hair out. I have ADHD and people trying to give me organizational advice don't understand that the problem isn't with the methods I use or don't use (I promise you I've tried all of them), it's with my core programming. You try 30 different methods to bypass your dysfunction and somehow get the same result every time. It's actually kind of scary how solidly reliable the dysfunctions are. Over the years, I've even been impressed by the versatility and longevity of my mental illnesses. If society were structured so as to value my dysfunctions, I'd be among the most influential or powerful people on Earth, hands down..!
I'm sure other folks with different challenges have had similar experiences with their own struggles. I've made progress on some of mine, but every time it is so slow, so hard-won, and absolutely exhausting to achieve. And you still mess up sometimes and it's enough to blow a fuse.
EDIT TO ADD: I do actually very much want to continue therapy (I've done years of it already) but where I'm living it'll add up to $300/mo or more even with insurance. Trying to figure out now who to go to and how to budget. It's ... doubly hard when your problem is ADHD, ha. (Or, say, depression, or anxiety, if you have PTSD from a prior 'therapeutic' experience, like some people I know).
What I'm saying is "just go to therapy" isn't a clean and automatic solution for all of us either. Some of us have to learn to live with ourselves before we even get to the therapist's office in order for therapy to start having an effect.
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Post by wies on Apr 26, 2021 23:13:03 GMT
"GREAT STUFF HERE" (Also, Annie does a lot of the same exact stuff I am mentioning here, but with the difference that she knew a parent loved her (She was never in doubt of Surma's love for her) which may be something Tony didn't have, and was without debilitating anxiety able to gather herself a supporting network that called her out and provided a way to vent when she was making a cage of her own. As much Gamma stated Annie saved Kat from a dark path, the reverse might be true too.) I wanted to say two things. 1) Great post. That was a nice read and nice analysis. 2) I'm not sure with Annie it was a problem as much as a defense mechanism. It's not that Annie was at times incapable of being intimate with people as much as she was protecting herself from getting hurt. We can see a lot of this in the beginnings of the comic and how Annie opens up with Kat, and eventually others as well the more she interacts with the creatures from the Forest. Plus, Annie is unconsciously extremely empathetic. Whether that is an etheric/fire elemental influence or something unique about Annie, I think is incompatible with being the way Anthony is. 1) Thank you! 2)"protecting herself from hurt" is important here. Now, I admit I am going on a limb here, but it is the same speculation in my post you responded to: the mindcage is a flawed tool for Tony to stop being overwhelmed by his anxiety (and may also have been developed as reaction to hurt or neglect in his life). In other words, to protect himself from hurt. Now, I could be totally wrong and this could be all or partly ether. And maybe even inflicted on him by someone else, like Ysengrin's memory loss! (It would still work on a metaphorical level, I think) But let's assume my speculation is right. Antimony purposefully used her etherical powers to cut off her anger and fire because she was afraid of her anger overwhelming her and lashing out at her own dad.(Not an unjustifed fear) No matter her anger, she didn't want that to happen so she put it away. (Much like how Anthony tried to suppress his anger when he saw Antimony and Forest Annie after his return, with the second time going a lot better.)
Now, here is the crucial part: While the cut might have been necessary at the time, I don't think she would have stopped it at her own. Ysengrin ended it against her will and was prepared to get burned a lot. (Also, Anthony might have benefited from a well-timed 'So?' now and then. It is a bit like Donald trying to say to chill when he was fretting about Brinnie. I really love Ysengrin's deadpan reaction to all that Carver turmoil)
Now, I don't think it would ever have grown so severe as the mindcage (if only because it happened later in her life and because it seems less thorough) but I suspect if she kept cut off going for some time that would have caused some serious connection issues with her anger and fire later down the road.
Anyway, I see much of Tony's anguish in that act of hers.
This is the most extreme example, but it is not the first time she needed someone to shake her up. Like, in Thread she was so afraid Kat would hate her for something she would do she preferred to run away. (Hey, at least she did it with shoes on!) But Kat both holds her responsible and reassures her with her own incredible empathy and heart she too treasures her friendship and how Annie is important to her. (Also, those exhanged quotes of "I would do anything for you!" sure read different now we know of Kat's time shenangians) As great Donald is, I doubt he would have made a reassurement like that to Tony. (Partly because of his subdued manner of expressing and partly because Tony seems even more difficult to understand and handle as friend than Annie.)
Influenced by her mother and father Antimony may have been, but also by Kat.
Then also that whole thing with copying Kat's homework. We really see Anthony's influence there with her motivation to not look stupid in Kat's eyes. (Hmm, someone does not like being seen as a failure!) But also her first hiding her emotions at beforehand, which quickly fails and her mother's qualities become more prominent (for this is not only the story of Antimony and her father, but also of her and her mother) but it ends with her running away and staying away for a looong time which Ysengrin, Jones and Kat showed displeasure with that decision and let her know no matter the emotional upset she went through she is still responsible for what she did to others. They held her accountable and let her know her reaction was not okay. It is not completely the same but it is similiar to Tony's own runaway when Surma died. (Just on a waaaay smaller scale)
Annie is not Tony, she is her own person. But that doesn't mean she can't make same or similiar faults. (That goes up for Surma too) In my view, it is less that her empathy prevents her from becoming fully caged like him, and more that she could build a network of friends and mentors that both supports her and make her attent of her flaws. Like, before she ran away to the Forest, she too was seen by most of her classmates with distrust, just like some might with Tony. After all, people fear what is strange to them. Only later when she gained confidence enough to show more of her likeable qualities and go socialize like in Faraway Morning, the classmates started to trust her and then to like her.
I mean, her empathy still matters! But I wonder how much if she didn't have so quickly another friend who is loyal and also strange in her own manner. My point here is while I also don't believe she would ever have it as bad as Anthony, her defense mechanism could have ended up being quite the cage that would be difficult to open as well. That it didn't seems due to her better youth in which she socialized with ghosts and psychopomps and did trust Surma loved her which in turn made her sociable enough to eventually get the help and support Tony needed and should have received when he was her age. |
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Post by maxptc on Apr 27, 2021 0:11:57 GMT
(2) "Why not just do x" isn't so easy when people have deeply ingrained (chronic) mental illness. Like Annie asking Zimmy to harness her powers, it's enough to tear your hair out. I have ADHD and people trying to give me organizational advice don't understand that the problem isn't with the methods I use or don't use (I promise you I've tried all of them), it's with my core programming. You try 30 different methods to bypass your dysfunction and somehow get the same result every time. It's actually kind of scary how solidly reliable the dysfunctions are. Over the years, I've even been impressed by the versatility and longevity of my mental illnesses. If society were structured so as to value my dysfunctions, I'd be among the most influential or powerful people on Earth, hands down..! I'm sure other folks with different challenges have had similar experiences with their own struggles. I've made progress on some of mine, but every time it is so slow, so hard-won, and absolutely exhausting to achieve. And you still mess up sometimes and it's enough to blow a fuse. EDIT TO ADD: I do actually very much want to continue therapy (I've done years of it already) but where I'm living it'll add up to $300/mo or more even with insurance. Trying to figure out now who to go to and how to budget. It's ... doubly hard when your problem is ADHD, ha. (Or, say, depression, or anxiety, if you have PTSD from a prior 'therapeutic' experience, like some people I know). What I'm saying is "just go to therapy" isn't a clean and automatic solution for all of us either. Some of us have to learn to live with ourselves before we even get to the therapist's office in order for therapy to start having an effect. This is so on point. The "just try _____" advice to people with mental struggles is kinda...ableist I guess? It comes from a good place typically, but it's the emotional equivalent of being in a yacht and telling someone in a paddleboat to peddle really hard or have a better boat if they wanna go faster and as far out into the ocean as you. |
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shadowhunter
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Why am I always the "and one more"?
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Post by shadowhunter on Apr 27, 2021 1:00:17 GMT
In some ways they're really more the opposite of one another, in spite of me poorly throwing this together - Tony has all the capacity for emotional connection that Jones doesn't have, but he struggles with the social process. Whereas Jones has learned to perfectly mimic all of those processes, but she can't get there emotionally. And so they both carry that isolation with them. |
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Post by foxurus on Apr 27, 2021 1:33:59 GMT
Choose trying to resurrect your dead wife. If we're gonna start hating people for trying to resurrect their loved ones, I should remind you that Kat time traveled to bring Annie back from the dead. [...] So while it is not the worst solution he could have found, it is still a form of abandonment which probably caused her being so shut-in at the start of the comic. Because he couldn't prioritize his parenting above still finding a answer. (Though to be fair, he might have intended to help her with an answer as well later on) And he paid a heavy price for it. And it could have been worse with it having involuntarily killed his daughter. Annie had no way of interacting with other children (who weren't dying) until she went to the Court because Surma forced the family to live in a hospital far away from anyone they knew so that her friends wouldn't see her dying. Being emotionally stunted at the beginning of the comic was far more because of Surma and her inability to put Annie's needs (like social interaction, or knowing she's a fire elemental) beyond her own desires (like avoiding difficult conversations) than anything Tony did, even given that he was barely a father to Annie. (In contrast, Surma likely did learn about her heritage from her mother.) And it was not Tony who wanted Annie to go back to Gunnerkrigg Court -- Tony only decided to not go with her. I don't think we should assume that easy loopholes like just writing letters would work. Yes, he can talk to other people, and they can talk to her. (Which they've already done some; Anja told Annie about her father being unable to talk to more than one person, and Donny shared a conversation between them with her.) But asking them to tell her something would likely lock him up just the same as telling her himself, as would writing a letter. Knowing that what he says will get back to her may very well make it impossible to say. Also, part of the change in Anthony's design is that he seems to have been extremely underweight when he returned to the Court. |
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Post by drmemory on Apr 27, 2021 2:21:22 GMT
To recap: This chapter started with Jones trying to evaluate Annie's mental state. It is implied that this is related to her apparently becoming single again, though I'm not sure that was fully spelled out. In fairness, Annie doesn't spell out that she's single either, so they are being equally forthcoming.
"It seems that way, yes!" vs. "People are curious about your... recombination. They wonder about your mental state".
She interviewed a bunch of people. Unless I missed something, nobody actually said anything bad or alarming about Annie's mental state. Quite the opposite! Parley said she seemed more confident. Paz said that even during the confrontation, she was not acting strangely. The rest of the Scooby gang kind of liked there being two, and said they seemed like sisters, observing that their personalities had diverged a little. James said she seems none the worse for the experience. Jones pressed Anja about the "unruly" thing, and Anja agreed, then Idra said it was no wonder she was spoiled. Anja then defends Annie again and reduces that to "headstrong".
In summary, nobody seems to think there are are issues with Annie's mental state, either now nor before the merger or whatever it is.
Meanwhile, all roads lead to Tony. Pretty much everyone she asked about Annie pointed a finger at Tony. To be clear, if anyone said anything about Annie's mental state being off in any way but it being Tony's fault, I missed it - they all jumped directly to the anti-Tony side, yes? Except for Donald, of course, who calmly and maturely suggested they just TALK to the man.
So we still don't know who put Jones up to this, nor whether she decided on her own. She does seem to care about Annie (though I'm sure she would say it was learned behavior). Maybe this was all to provide a reason for Jones to ask Tony about his mind? I'm a little surprised that she's only asking Tony these questions now, but I guess stones don't have a lot of curiosity. 
Sorry, no wild theories or anything this time, I'm just wondering if i missed something here. Like why someone would be worried about Annie's mental state, if I missed evidence of same, and who could or would give Jones tasks like that.
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Post by silicondream on Apr 27, 2021 8:05:56 GMT
I was going to try to take a break from “LEAVE TONY ALONE” rants, but...well, apologies. Here we go! I sympathize with the yearning to take part in life very much, but Tony has to seek help if he wants to accomplish that. As others have said, how do we know he didn’t? Maybe there are no therapists; maybe he’s tried but couldn’t find a willing provider with security clearance; maybe he’s done therapy but it hasn’t worked. Treatment-resistant mental illnesses and shitty behavioral health care systems are not exactly rare in the real world. The only person we’ve met at the Court who’s anything close to a therapist is Jones, and her relationship with Tony has a giant wall in the middle called That Business With James. Still, as we see here, Tony is already talking to her. And he certainly reached out to his wife and friends. Why would that be worse? Annie and her friends do it all the time: that’s how you process your issues in a fantasy world. Fighting monsters, and talking to gods, and reanimating ancient robots, is their therapy. Why shouldn’t Tony be allowed to try the same thing? foxurus put this more succinctly upthread, but look at Kat. When she couldn’t handle Annie’s doubling, she disappeared into her lab and reverse-engineered a robot bird from her parents’ old stories while concocting an elaborate multiverse theory with dead alt-Annies and bereaved alt-Kats. Then she tried to figure out how to break time in half, eventually consulted some goddesses for the secrets of time travel, and tied Annie’s life back together with a causal loop. ...none of which actually solved the initial problem of there being two Annies, but it made Kat feel a lot better and saved all Annies everywhere, maybe? This approach works for most GC characters. And it worked for Tony, really. It hasn't cured his mental issue or Annie's curse, but it made him commit to Annie over Surma and I'm sure it's contributed to his ridiculous courage and determination whenever he has to protect her. Also, he's a licensed surgeon, entomologist, engineer, shaman and necromancer at this point, which is bound to come in handy from time to time. Can't become Bat-Dad without a training montage! Choose disappearing for years. I maintain that when you’re on top-secret psychedelic journeys into the underworld, neither your schedule nor your cell phone reception is really a matter of choice. Mort: am i a joke to youThis world is filled with revenants and restless beings. Surma was a self-birthing magical psychic who talked to the dead for a living. It is not even weird that Tony would think to contact her spirit. How would Tony know they were malignant? Surma seemed to be on perfectly good terms with them. They showed a darker side with Annie later, but I don’t see why Tony would assume that his wife’s coworkers were, like, Satanic. Which worked, you’ll notice. It just had the unexpected side effect of endangering Annie. But again, how could Tony predict that? He’d seen that Surma and Annie were running off the same battery in life, but he didn’t yet know that Annie had sucked away Surma’s actual soul. And the psychopomps chose not to mention it. Would he have been a better father by killing himself or running away? Alternatively: choose saving your daughter from expulsion and banishment, explaining why to the only person who cares and can be trusted, and not getting drunk alone. Renard was watching Tony on all his lonely nights. He wasn’t boozing it up, he was reviewing Annie’s schoolwork. Also: wah fucking wah, Tony. You could have explained this to your best mates and let them pick up the slack. He did! He’s told lots of people! He’s explaining it to Jones right now, and it’s clearly not the first time since he says “You know how I am.” He explained it to Surma at the end of “Get Lost,” and he either told Anja or allowed Surma to tell her because Anja narrates “Get Lost.” He’s almost certainly explained it to Don, since he tells Don everything. I see no evidence that Tony hid his disability from any of his peers. Most of them probably didn’t notice or didn’t care, because Tony’s massively unpopular, but that doesn’t make it his fault. And, for that matter, his best mates did pick up the slack. Tony sent Annie to the school where they all worked, and he made sure that everything she needed was provided for her, and his friends co-parented her while he was off on his quest. It all worked out fairly nicely, on Annie's end. Is does kinda beg the question.. Tony, even if it's that hard to talk to Antimony about this.. could you maybe write the poor girl a letter or something? If you're aware of the problem, let her know you know and that it's not her fault. Why would he be so cruel as to tell Antimony, especially at any younger age than this? It would break her heart! Annie’s devoted to Tony and always has been. If she knew that she was her father’s personal Outer God, that her mere presence was a unique drain on his sanity, that he could be alone and content with anybody except her...that would crush any child, let alone one whose mother is dying or dead. Convincing her that “it’s not her fault” would be impossible; kids just don’t think that way. Everything is their fault, and Annie was a particularly responsible kid. What Tony did convey to Annie was precisely what he should have done. He was a “quiet man” who couldn’t talk to anybody, therefore he couldn’t talk to her either. He was an antisocial and unpopular man who was distant with everybody, therefore was distant with her as well. That was the only way she could understand him without the fatal realization that she, specifically, was his problem. And it worked; Antimony has almost always been happy around him and confident in his love. Of course, at some point in her life Annie was always going to figure things out. But it would be far better for her to do so as late in life as possible, when her ego would be strong enough to cope. That’s probably why Anja and even Kat got evasive when Annie popped the “but why is it just me?” question, and why Annie herself retracted it. She'll learn on her own when she's ready--which is probably right about now. |
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Post by madjack on Apr 27, 2021 8:10:18 GMT
Anthony is Coyote confirmed Could it be possible that Tony's mind cage (or Tony himself) is also part of Coyote's whole plan? Or that Tony is (gulp!) a part of Coyote? In the end, everyone returns to Coyote. |
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Post by silicondream on Apr 27, 2021 8:38:24 GMT
Oh, man. One more nugget of hackneyed annoyance I must disgorge: And our brain that loves to simplify and abstract things struggles with this and the gut cannot deliver a sound assessment of him. So it is no wonder he is the most controversial character of the comic, even compared with characters that brought Antimony in mortal danger too like Renard or Coyote. And, most glaringly, Ysengrin. Ysengrin is, literally, the Big Bad Wolf. He has no regard for human life--in fact, he actively wants to wipe out humanity. He tried to kill Annie five minutes after he met her, threatened to kill her again when she saw him undressed, and even after they’d become near-family, a careless sentence made him snap and hunt her down through the forest like...well, like the predatory monster that he is. He crushed one of her most prized possessions, temporarily crippling her psychic abilities, and caused her to break down and try to incinerate him in revenge. Most horrifyingly of all, he agreed with Tony about her. And currently he’s all hopped up on Coyote juice--having murdered and eaten his, sort of, best friend and idol?--and has become Annie’s creepiest and most explicitly sexual stalker. Objectively, and barring her own biology, Ysengrin is the most serious threat to Annie’s survival in the entire story. Subjectively, he has directly caused Annie immense amounts of panic, grief and anxiety. And we can’t even blame his issues on Coyote, because Ysengrin knows that Coyote’s distorting his mind and body and he accepts that in return for, well, power. He’s a textbook villain. But many readers seem to be...cool with all that, somehow. Poor demented Wolf-Dad! He’s so fluffy and vulnerable and he lets her ride on him! At least he never did anything really nasty, like being a dick to Annie in class one time, or failing to smile at her on cue! Mind you, I like Ysengrin myself in a lot of ways. He’s a monster, but a sympathetic monster. But the fact that people find him so sympathetic and Tony so unforgivable is...well, it’s fascinating. I think it’s fundamentally because Ysengrin’s scenes--both negative and positive--tend to push Annie toward becoming a cool fantasy heroine, while Tony’s scenes tend to push her toward becoming a normal young woman. Ysengrin’s Annie is simply more fun to read about, and we resent Tony for getting in her way, even though any responsible parent would do the same. Or maybe it's that more readers have personally experienced the cold and neglectful variety of dad-hole than the unpredictable and violent variety. I dunno. |
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Post by rinabean on Apr 27, 2021 8:57:29 GMT
Ysengrin is, literally, the Big Bad Wolf. He has no regard for human life--in fact, he actively wants to wipe out humanity. He tried to kill Annie five minutes after he met her, threatened to kill her again when she saw him undressed, and even after they’d become near-family, a careless sentence made him snap and hunt her down through the forest like...well, like the predatory monster that he is. He crushed one of her most prized possessions, temporarily crippling her psychic abilities, and caused her to break down and try to incinerate him in revenge. Most horrifyingly of all, he agreed with Tony about her. And currently he’s all hopped up on Coyote juice--having murdered and eaten his, sort of, best friend and idol?--and has become Annie’s creepiest and most explicitly sexual stalker. Objectively, and barring her own biology, Ysengrin is the most serious threat to Annie’s survival in the entire story. Subjectively, he has directly caused Annie immense amounts of panic, grief and anxiety. And we can’t even blame his issues on Coyote, because Ysengrin knows that Coyote’s distorting his mind and body and he accepts that in return for, well, power. He’s a textbook villain. But many readers seem to be...cool with all that, somehow. Poor demented Wolf-Dad! He’s so fluffy and vulnerable and he lets her ride on him! At least he never did anything really nasty, like being a dick to Annie in class one time, or failing to smile at her on cue! Mind you, I like Ysengrin myself in a lot of ways. He’s a monster, but a sympathetic monster. But the fact that people find him so sympathetic and Tony so unforgivable is...well, it’s fascinating. I think it’s fundamentally because Ysengrin’s scenes--both negative and positive--tend to push Annie toward becoming a cool fantasy heroine, while Tony’s scenes tend to push her toward becoming a normal young woman. Ysengrin’s Annie is simply more fun to read about, and we resent Tony for getting in her way, even though any responsible parent would do the same. Or maybe it's that more readers have personally experienced the cold and neglectful variety of dad-hole than the unpredictable and violent variety. I dunno. If it's bad for Ysengrin to "temporarily cripple her psychic abilities", it's far worse for Anthony to "push her toward becoming a normal young woman". She isn't a normal young woman. And I thought that whole episode was just as much about Anthony rejecting the fire as Ysengrin breaking the blinker stone, or maybe I'm mixing two together in my mind. I expect one of the ways Anthony tried to save Surma & Annie would have been to remove their powers, too. He never managed it, and the intentions are good (if Surma had agreed to it, of course), but it's certainly no better than Ysengrin doing it accidentally, in a way that Annie grew from
Generally, I really don't like people making excuses for Anthony. Being autistic or having anxiety doesn't make you a child abuser. It's clearly something along those lines that his difficulties stem from, but none of it justifies what he's done. The vibe I often get from discussions of this topic is like "oh, well, if he's autistic, of course he's a terrible father" and... that's not the statement against ableism some people seem to think it is. At the end of the day, Ysengrin literally is a monster, and Anthony isn't. If his emotional difficulties, whatever they are, are supposed to make him a parallel monster... that's not cool! And I don't think that that's the intention in the comic. I think he's just a really awful father. Not simply because he's not warm, but because he never makes serious efforts to mitigate this flaw in his parenting. Interesting character - terrible person |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 27, 2021 9:10:10 GMT
[...]
Sorry, no wild theories or anything this time, I'm just wondering if i missed something here. Like why someone would be worried about Annie's mental state, if I missed evidence of same, and who could or would give Jones tasks like that.
I just assumed it were people like the Shadow Men or Llanwellyn who are interested in Annie's mental state and how her recombination came about. And that Jones interviews all these other people only after getting the task of evaluating the new Annie. |
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Post by frogspawned on Apr 27, 2021 12:29:02 GMT
Generally, I really don't like people making excuses for Anthony. Being autistic or having anxiety doesn't make you a child abuser. It's clearly something along those lines that his difficulties stem from, but none of it justifies what he's done. The vibe I often get from discussions of this topic is like "oh, well, if he's autistic, of course he's a terrible father" and... that's not the statement against ableism some people seem to think it is. At the end of the day, Ysengrin literally is a monster, and Anthony isn't. If his emotional difficulties, whatever they are, are supposed to make him a parallel monster... that's not cool! And I don't think that that's the intention in the comic. I think he's just a really awful father. Not simply because he's not warm, but because he never makes serious efforts to mitigate this flaw in his parenting. Interesting character - terrible person I'm in a similar boat, I think. I don't like people making excuses for Anthony: but in my case it's because nothing he has done ... really needs excusing?
I really don't understand how sending your daughter to boarding school and reprimanding her for cheating in her classes merits the claims of "Child Abuse" we see so often. If he'd just left her at the hospital with no arrangements made for her life or education I could see the neglect angle- but that wasn't what happened.
If people were focused primarily on the lance of bone, I could also maybe get it. That's a direct, harmful thing - and while it was done in ignorance and born of tortured, desperate optimism I could still grasp the argument. But the example we're generally given is 'making her feel bad about cheating' which... seems quite reasonable? People should feel bad about cheating, especially when they're clever enough to succeed on their own but are too irresponsible to bother.
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Post by todd on Apr 27, 2021 13:20:56 GMT
I wonder whether we go easier on Coyote, Ysengrin, and Renard than on Antony because they're non-humans ("magical" talking canids from myth and legend) while Antony's human. All the more so since the trouble those three have caused is of a fantastic nature, while Antony's actions towards Annie were more "real-world discipline" in tone.
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Post by maxptc on Apr 27, 2021 13:46:25 GMT
I wonder whether we go easier on Coyote, Ysengrin, and Renard than on Antony because they're non-humans ("magical" talking canids from myth and legend) while Antony's human. All the more so since the trouble those three have caused is of a fantastic nature, while Antony's actions towards Annie were more "real-world discipline" in tone. Im a pretty big believer that people here are notorious for allowing the magic animals to get away with attempted murder and other moral failings towards Annie while judging the humans super harshly for less, like Paz gossiping. Tony gets it the worst because not only is he human, but because he is Annie's Dad, so very relatable, and his failings are more personal to Annie, even if they are leaps and bounds less aggressive or potentially life threatening, aside from the mind spike. Sure unlike the magic creatures in her life, Tony wasn't trying to murder her with said spike, but that doesn't count for much because he also sent her to the boarding school everyone in comic attends and also doesn't like her cheating at said school. Oh and didn't let her wear make up at first, and tried to take away the fox spirt that tried to murder her. |
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Post by blahzor on Apr 27, 2021 13:50:07 GMT
i'm full speed (actually 90%) in that Kat is responsible for his Mind Cage like someone Wild Spec'd whoa. What if Tony made a deal/received a reprise from This Other Ancient Guy and interpreter and was mindcaged as Clippy proposed first (panel 3)? (or will make in the future, and retro-applied by time shenanigans? Like, in some future Annie is at risk of dying, but Tony makes a deal to save her, and the Jailer says "Ok, but then you would never be able to show her love", and ping, Tony as a child is mindfkd, I mean, mindcaged from that day on) i don't think they'd do trades but more accept promises and punish if broken. so Tony gets the punishment b/c he tried to break the Fire Spirit from passing on but he doesn't get the full punishment b/c they technically only warned Kat and Annie. Also full punishment of him would stop Annie from existing and negating his thing he gets punished for? |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 27, 2021 13:53:12 GMT
I wonder whether we go easier on Coyote, Ysengrin, and Renard than on Antony because they're non-humans ("magical" talking canids from myth and legend) while Antony's human. All the more so since the trouble those three have caused is of a fantastic nature, while Antony's actions towards Annie were more "real-world discipline" in tone. You might be on to something here... I also wonder if Zimmy's blacked out eyes and sharp teeth are also a reason readers tend to go easier on her as well... |
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Post by wies on Apr 27, 2021 14:30:32 GMT
[...] So while it is not the worst solution he could have found, it is still a form of abandonment which probably caused her being so shut-in at the start of the comic. Because he couldn't prioritize his parenting above still finding a answer. (Though to be fair, he might have intended to help her with an answer as well later on) And he paid a heavy price for it. And it could have been worse with it having involuntarily killed his daughter. Annie had no way of interacting with other children (who weren't dying) until she went to the Court because Surma forced the family to live in a hospital far away from anyone they knew so that her friends wouldn't see her dying. Being emotionally stunted at the beginning of the comic was far more because of Surma and her inability to put Annie's needs (like social interaction, or knowing she's a fire elemental) beyond her own desires (like avoiding difficult conversations) than anything Tony did, even given that he was barely a father to Annie. (In contrast, Surma likely did learn about her heritage from her mother.) And it was not Tony who wanted Annie to go back to Gunnerkrigg Court -- Tony only decided to not go with her. Yeah, "not the worst solution" was an understatement. It was a decent solution. I am not holding him responsible for that, but for the decision to not go with her. He would still have been a rather distant dad, but it would have been an environment where he could have learned better how to parent, with her making friends and him being able to talk with Donald or Jones. Even if he had to see Surma again, it would have been better if he waited longer than a month before going away. As people have pointed out in the threads of Annie and the Fire he would have known more about psychopomps if he had been able to communicate with her. On that note: I don't think we should assume that easy loopholes like just writing letters would work. Yes, he can talk to other people, and they can talk to her. (Which they've already done some; Anja told Annie about her father being unable to talk to more than one person, and Donny shared a conversation between them with her.) But asking them to tell her something would likely lock him up just the same as telling her himself, as would writing a letter. Knowing that what he says will get back to her may very well make it impossible to say. I don't think it is impossible for him. Because he has been gradually improving his behavior all the time. Like, with asking her to come live at his house when she went to the forest. Conceding in an argument with Courtnie that she could wear make-up again. And, significantly, opened up briefly to disguised Courtnie to communicate more. That last thing is importent because it shows he can communicate of his own volition. And that is why, though difficult, a letter or something is not that bad an idea. Like, it doesn't have to be a diary-like confession! Even a dry explanation and acknowledgment would already do a whole lot. He seems hindered from doing such things by a mix of self-loathing and (understandably) belief he is completely helpless in the cage. |
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