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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 23, 2021 7:03:29 GMT
And we've arrived at the origin of the chapter's title, the mind cage reference. And yep, it is sounding like he could interact with Fannie better because he might not have believed she was really an Antimony on some level. Sigh.
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V
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I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
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Post by V on Apr 23, 2021 7:07:09 GMT
Oh no, I'm afraid that's it for the exposition :-( If Tony does not know any better, who could?
Except if Jones demonstrates some crazy psychoanalytic skills and lets him realize new things just by letting him speak.
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Post by faiiry on Apr 23, 2021 7:07:16 GMT
Iâm one of those people who doesnât like Tony at all, but as an autistic person, I find myself being able to relate to him strongly, especially on this page. I donât know if his mind cage is the result of some in-universe supernatural shenanigans or if itâs just how he is as a person, but I relate so strongly to that social awkwardness and not being able to control how your body acts, as if your mind is in a cage. Iâve felt exactly that way before. This page really hit home in that way.
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Post by neonmoon on Apr 23, 2021 7:21:15 GMT
Whew, rough pages, I cringed when I realized we were in for another painful Tony chapter. I think all the debates and discourse about whether Tony is good or bad or abusive or what are going to have to settle for an understanding that this comic is, among other things, about the experience of having a severely mentally ill parent. I had to go through some âyou canât fix him; you canât change himâ when I read the last page and I think thatâs the story Tom is actually trying to tell, no matter how jarring it was for longtime readers when Tony returned and started being a major part of the story, derailing what was a pretty straightforward orphan coming of age with supernatural companions narrative. Antimony is dealing with a parent figure with a significant mental/emotional impairment and thatâs just what this comic is going to be about.
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Post by madjack on Apr 23, 2021 7:22:30 GMT
Oh no, I'm afraid that's it for the exposition :-( If Tony does not know any better, who could? He's already said that he doesn't know why he is the way he is. That he's saying as much again is interesting because this hopefully means we will get some new insight. This also means it's not a separate thing to his inability to open up to people, and it definitely isn't something he's put there himself. Hmm.
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 23, 2021 7:33:49 GMT
I swear this is the most AUTISTIC thing that's been said so far in this comic. This is why it was so painful for me to watch forum members speculate about a magical, etheric, or otherwise supernatural explanation for the way Tony is. Feeling like your mind is trapped in a cage that blocks your body from doing what you want it to do is a very real, very neurodiverse sensation, and it freaking hurts.
It pains me to relate so much to this man.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Apr 23, 2021 7:38:43 GMT
Hmmm, so the Broken Man really knows he is quite broken and how he's broken. I find it interesting that he DOES find it rather easy to open up to Jones, but that might be that he just sees her as the same kind of analytical/un-human mind he understands.
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on Apr 23, 2021 7:51:49 GMT
I like Tony a lot. I can't relate to him at all in any way, but from what I can see, his heart is in the right place. I'm not saying he's a very successful dad (he's not) but he's doing his best. When he married Surma, he tried to make sure both her and their child would survive. He was extremely smart and knowledgeable, he had access to facilities and equipment that other people didn't. It's quite likely that no other fire elemental had a chance like Surma's to surpass this death. Your wife dying at childbirth is a very complicated situation, and I think it would be hard for most husbands, even without any supernatural circumstances. A lot of them might subconsciously (or consciously!) blame the child, at least in part. However, I don't think that's Tony's case. I think the reason he was so distant towards Antimony even before Surma died, was not that he blamed her, but he blamed himself for his failure. I don't think it was a "it's your fault so I want nothing to do with you" but that it was a "I'm failing to save your mother and our family so I can't even look at you in the eye" feeling. When Surma died, he was sure that his daughter was better off without him. That's not indifference, it's extremely low self-esteem (also skewed logic). As for why he went to this strange supernatural adventuring trip afterwards: well, he tried everything scientific, so he might as well now try everything ethereal. Even if it was too late for Surma, if he managed to find an ethereal cure, Antimony could still benefit from it when SHE decided to have a child. Then he found creatures that promised him he could bring Surma back to life, and when he realized the cost of this resurrection was his daughter's life, he stopped. Once more, he blamed himself, and thought his daughter was better of without him, after he <i>almost killed her</i>.
What I'm saying is, Tony has a lot of issues. Dead wife, guilt, self-deprecation, and a child whose face reminds him both of his wife and his failure. It seems like he can't move past it. Probably a torrent of emotions overwhelm him whenever he looks at Antimony. A neurotypical person with a happy childhood might have the skills to overcome all that... but from what I read from other commenters with autism and social anxiety, his behavior seems quite realistic to me. I can't dislike someone for having (and failing) to overcome such obstacles whenever they socialize. Of course, that's not enough for Antimony, but "non-neurotypical person has trouble overcoming his guilt, moving on from the past and being a good father to his daughter whom he loves" is miles different from "unemotional person doesn't care about his daughter and only cares about resurrecting his wife and doing weird research".
We have yet to see why he's always like that with two people or more, though. Would he freeze like this if it was only him, Donny and Surma in the same room? If any non-neurotypical person could answer me this, I'd be very grateful!
(By far the strangest thing about him is how KAT liked him. HER issue with him wasn't that he was cold, but that he was an absent father to Antimony. Jokes and a brilliant mind don't change that. I still don't understand how she changed her mind. Even if Antimony told her about everything she saw spying through Donny, I'd have thought she'd be extra mad at him for opening up to her but not Antimony.)
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on Apr 23, 2021 8:00:04 GMT
I swear this is the most AUTISTIC thing that's been said so far in this comic. This is why it was so painful for me to watch forum members speculate about a magical, etheric, or otherwise supernatural explanation for the way Tony is. Feeling like your mind is trapped in a cage that blocks your body from doing what you want it to do is a very real, very neurodiverse sensation, and it freaking hurts. It pains me to relate so much to this man. I think the weird, potentially supernatural thing that confuses some of us readers if the number of people that triggers Tony's mind cage. I'd have thought that familiarity with the people surrounding you would be a lot more important. Like, Tony should be able to open up when he's with Donny because they're friends. Maybe he's not equally familiar with Anja, so he closes up when she's around as well. But then why should he open up to Kat? He's not familiar with her. Why did he open up with Surma the moment she was alone if the only person he was close with was Donny? Why is "the number of people surrounding him being one, regardless of whether they're close friends or total strangers" so crucial? Is that something you experience?
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Post by talanaes on Apr 23, 2021 8:12:33 GMT
I swear this is the most AUTISTIC thing that's been said so far in this comic. This is why it was so painful for me to watch forum members speculate about a magical, etheric, or otherwise supernatural explanation for the way Tony is. Feeling like your mind is trapped in a cage that blocks your body from doing what you want it to do is a very real, very neurodiverse sensation, and it freaking hurts. It pains me to relate so much to this man. I think the weird, potentially supernatural thing that confuses some of us readers if the number of people that triggers Tony's mind cage. I'd have thought that familiarity with the people surrounding you would be a lot more important. Like, Tony should be able to open up when he's with Donny because they're friends. Maybe he's not equally familiar with Anja, so he closes up when she's around as well. But then why should he open up to Kat? He's not familiar with her. Why did he open up with Surma the moment she was alone if the only person he was close with was Donny? Why is "the number of people surrounding him being one, regardless of whether they're close friends or total strangers" so crucial? Is that something you experience?
As soon as there are three people, any interaction also contains an observer.
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Post by faiiry on Apr 23, 2021 8:13:31 GMT
I swear this is the most AUTISTIC thing that's been said so far in this comic. This is why it was so painful for me to watch forum members speculate about a magical, etheric, or otherwise supernatural explanation for the way Tony is. Feeling like your mind is trapped in a cage that blocks your body from doing what you want it to do is a very real, very neurodiverse sensation, and it freaking hurts. It pains me to relate so much to this man. I think the weird, potentially supernatural thing that confuses some of us readers if the number of people that triggers Tony's mind cage. I'd have thought that familiarity with the people surrounding you would be a lot more important. Like, Tony should be able to open up when he's with Donny because they're friends. Maybe he's not equally familiar with Anja, so he closes up when she's around as well. But then why should he open up to Kat? He's not familiar with her. Why did he open up with Surma the moment she was alone if the only person he was close with was Donny? Why is "the number of people surrounding him being one, regardless of whether they're close friends or total strangers" so crucial? Is that something you experience? I canât speak for everyoneâautism is a super diverse experience and nobody experiences it the same way. However, when I think about it, I think it sounds pretty reasonable for Tony to be more comfortable one-on-one than in groups. A lot of autistic people feel like we put on different âmasksâ with different people, and Iâm thinking that when heâs in a group of two or more, Tony may have a tough time deciding which mask to put onâwhich is pretty relatable for me personally. I donât know why heâs different with certain people than others, but autism (or whatever heâs struggling with) is an incredibly complex and diverse thing, and it could be based on any number of factors that make him more comfortable and easygoing with certain people than others. I know itâs a lot easier for me to be myself one-on-one with someone I trust than in a larger group who I donât know that well.
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on Apr 23, 2021 8:16:48 GMT
I think the weird, potentially supernatural thing that confuses some of us readers if the number of people that triggers Tony's mind cage. I'd have thought that familiarity with the people surrounding you would be a lot more important. Like, Tony should be able to open up when he's with Donny because they're friends. Maybe he's not equally familiar with Anja, so he closes up when she's around as well. But then why should he open up to Kat? He's not familiar with her. Why did he open up with Surma the moment she was alone if the only person he was close with was Donny? Why is "the number of people surrounding him being one, regardless of whether they're close friends or total strangers" so crucial? Is that something you experience? I canât speak for everyoneâautism is a super diverse experience and nobody experiences it the same way. However, when I think about it, I think it sounds pretty reasonable for Tony to be more comfortable one-on-one than in groups. A lot of autistic people feel like we put on different âmasksâ with different people, and Iâm thinking that when heâs in a group of two or more, Tony may have a tough time deciding which mask to put onâwhich is pretty relatable for me personally. I donât know why heâs different with certain people than others, but autism (or whatever heâs struggling with) is an incredibly complex and diverse thing, and it could be based on any number of factors that make him more comfortable and easygoing with certain people than others. I know itâs a lot easier for me to be myself one-on-one with someone I trust than in a larger group who I donât know that well. Thank you for explaining this!!
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Post by lisanela on Apr 23, 2021 8:41:55 GMT
Jones: Woah I wish I could sit down for this revelation but there's only one chair in this house.
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yinglung
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It's only a tatter of mime.
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Post by yinglung on Apr 23, 2021 9:21:40 GMT
To add on to the "why only one on one?", a conversation between two other people is more intimidating to contribute to. There are fewer conversational gaps to jump in on, there is the constant risk of interrupting what someone else is saying, and you have to gauge the reaction of two people to your contribution, which means that chance that you make an poor impression more than doubles. I have enough difficulty convincing myself a social interaction with one other person didn't end in accidentally embarrassing myself, let alone when there are two potential sources of imagined judgement.
To give some perspective on what social anxiety feels like, imagine there is a buffet with a wide variety of food of varying quality. You know you can safely have saltines and cereal, but anything else makes you nauseous. You see other people eat the food and be fine, but you can only try one or two dishes before throwing up becomes a real danger. Slowly, you get used to the taste of pizza, and it joins saltines and cereal as one of the staples of your diet. But the buffet changes the toppings, and you still get nauseous sometimes. For every new dish, you have to convince yourself that the nausea is worth it, that eventually you will come to like and appreciate it. But the reality is, there are dishes you will never like, there are dishes that you like that get taken off the menu, and sometimes you pushed yourself too far and threw up, which means that you can't stand to have the last dish you tried even if you might have otherwise come to like it, the association is too gut-wrenchingly uncomfortable to deal with.
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Post by sebastian on Apr 23, 2021 9:48:56 GMT
Hmmm, so the Broken Man really knows he is quite broken and how he's broken. I find it interesting that he DOES find it rather easy to open up to Jones, but that might be that he just sees her as the same kind of analytical/un-human mind he understands. Jones is not a person. Talking with Jones is like talking with a mountain, one with a very weird echo that answer back, but still. I think Antony, for the same reason, could talk with Coyote/Loup without problems, at least one on one. He also seemed to have no problem talking with the psycopomps, at least to ask what he wanted. I wonder if he talked to Reynardine while he kept him in custody. I should look back but did we ever seen differences in how Reynardine treat him/talk about him after he gave him back to Annie?
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Post by oneandoneis2 on Apr 23, 2021 10:13:46 GMT
Tony didn't talk to Reynard, because Kat was his owner at that point and Rey refused to be anything other than a stuffed toy whilst with Tony
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Post by sebastian on Apr 23, 2021 10:21:40 GMT
Tony didn't talk to Reynard, because Kat was his owner at that point and Rey refused to be anything other than a stuffed toy whilst with Tony That just mean that Rey would not talk to Tony, not that Antony didn't talk to him.
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novia
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Post by novia on Apr 23, 2021 10:35:00 GMT
cookies plz
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 23, 2021 10:53:46 GMT
I'm not sure, but the chapter's title might be a subtle reference to the current page. What do you think? I wonder if he talked to Reynardine while he kept him in custody. He occasionally commanded Renard to show himself, which Renard refused. That's about it.
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Post by najmniejszy on Apr 23, 2021 10:57:47 GMT
Huh, I did not expect so many neurodiverget folks saying they relate, as I relate very much as well, but from a diffrent angle - I'm neurotypical as far as I know, but I suffer from depression that had mostly been treated and the biggest thing that remains is executive dysfunction - which is the thing that seem so Tony-like, wanting to do things but being unable to.
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Post by AluK on Apr 23, 2021 11:09:04 GMT
Past experiences with a person and the perception of prior judgement, in special, are two big things that make it much more difficult to talk to some people than with others, in my social anxiety experience. If I think I've made myself a fool in front of someone or if something they said or done has given me the impression (and that's real easy, because I over-analyze this stuff a lot, comb through every interaction with a fine tooth comb looking for reasons to feel embarrassed, and a lot of the time it's just what it is - my perception, not an actual fact), my first instinct is to lock up - and sadly, that usually means the person will act differently towards me, and that will reinforce that perception.
That has the odd effect of making it much easier to interact and open up to total strangers and/or people with whom I had few interactions than with some people that I interact daily. Now, If I have had several interactions with a person and I've learned to see them as someone that's non-judgemental and/or like-minded, I ease up on it - that's how I've built a circle of friends, that's why I'm quite close to my mum, etc.
But there's definitely this constant war inside my head whenever I have to interact with several people simultaneously, as I juggle with all these thoughts and feelings.
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on Apr 23, 2021 12:04:20 GMT
Past experiences with a person and the perception of prior judgement, in special, are two big things that make it much more difficult to talk to some people than with others, in my social anxiety experience. If I think I've made myself a fool in front of someone or if something they said or done has given me the impression (and that's real easy, because I over-analyze this stuff a lot, comb through every interaction with a fine tooth comb looking for reasons to feel embarrassed, and a lot of the time it's just what it is - my perception, not an actual fact), my first instinct is to lock up - and sadly, that usually means the person will act differently towards me, and that will reinforce that perception. That has the odd effect of making it much easier to interact and open up to total strangers and/or people with whom I had few interactions than with some people that I interact daily. Now, If I have had several interactions with a person and I've learned to see them as someone that's non-judgemental and/or like-minded, I ease up on it - that's how I've built a circle of friends, that's why I'm quite close to my mum, etc. But there's definitely this constant war inside my head whenever I have to interact with several people simultaneously, as I juggle with all these thoughts and feelings. It's interesting how a complete stranger might be easier to talk to than an acquaintance! However, I'm not sure that this is Tony's case though: when he was invited to the Dolands' house for dinner, Kat made it pretty clear she dislikes him and was quite rude at him, and he still managed to open up to her. Yet I can see how more than one people would be a lot more difficult to cope with, so that makes sense.
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Post by blahzor on Apr 23, 2021 12:18:58 GMT
ok Anthony you have a Alien inside you, you must extract it to gain control again
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Post by Per on Apr 23, 2021 12:22:20 GMT
And we've arrived at the origin of the chapter's title, the mind cage reference. Roll credits! Also, Tony is Nagato Yuki.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 23, 2021 13:10:51 GMT
Never watched the sequel; was she that disappointing?
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 23, 2021 13:33:37 GMT
I'm not sure, but the chapter's title might be a subtle reference to the current page. What do you think? I don't know. I'm still thinking a volatile Nick Cage will make an appearance. Due to the reasons Tony is talking about, he'll be extra cautious not to upset Cage. Like minding the gap. My question is, does GC Nick Cage have etheric powers? Wait, does ours?
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Post by beaukm on Apr 23, 2021 13:38:47 GMT
As someone on the Autistic spectrum, this feels familiar in some ways; it doesnât mean weâre broken, it doesnât mean we NEED to be fixed, and it DOESNT excuse abuse, BUT it IS relatable.
I think the ânumber of peopleâ issue can come down to processing issues and trouble concentrating on multiple peoplesâ thoughts and action at once, even if theyâre someone we know. Conversations with multiple people for those with disabilities can be draining, especially where theyâre wrought with ableism.
I think itâs also clear that Tony and Antimonyâs relationship is tied up in a lot of pressure and anxiety that Tony still doesnât feel equipped to handle. Iâm not sure why Tony felt he could talk to Fannie as if she were an imposter after Rey said otherwiseâ âit looks like you have two daughters nowââ but our thinking can be complex and varied and, as Tony said, feel like itâs out of our control at times.
Anyway, treat those with disabilities in your life with respect and autonomy. Thank you!
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Post by shaihulud on Apr 23, 2021 13:41:23 GMT
This actually sounds exactly word for word like my own experience with depersonalization. Only for him, it doesn't go away, which sounds like a nightmare.
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Post by Per on Apr 23, 2021 14:15:42 GMT
Never watched the sequel; was she that disappointing? If by sequel you mean the spinoff series it doesn't apply there, it's got a completely different metaphysical premise. It was just referring to some fuzzily similar specifics of how the original character works.
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 23, 2021 14:22:06 GMT
Huh, I did not expect so many neurodiverget folks saying they relate, as I relate very much as well, but from a diffrent angle - I'm neurotypical as far as I know, but I suffer from depression that had mostly been treated and the biggest thing that remains is executive dysfunction - which is the thing that seem so Tony-like, wanting to do things but being unable to. Shoutout to people with Depression and other mental illnesses who deal with this. Disclaimer: I haven't been formally diagnosed with Autism, but I do have ADHD, Autism's "sister disorder", and my biggest symptom is executive dysfunction. Executive dysfunction is actually what I was referring to when I said I painfully relate to Tony's "mind cage". It's a strange, sad kind of experience to be mentally screaming at your body to do a task, and it just...doesn't do it.
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