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Post by mitten on Apr 23, 2021 14:30:49 GMT
I'm not sure, but the chapter's title might be a subtle reference to the current page. What do you think? I don't know. I'm still thinking a volatile Nick Cage will make an appearance. Due to the reasons Tony is talking about, he'll be extra cautious not to upset Cage. Like minding the gap. My question is, does GC Nick Cage have etheric powers? Wait, does ours? I am now imagining a wildeyed Cage screaming in Annie's face - 'How'd it get BURNT?!'
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 23, 2021 15:00:38 GMT
So, previously Tony had said that he'd thought he'd learned to treat (Court) Annie as her own person, separate from his Surma baggage, but the coming of Forest Annie proved him wrong. Here he says that he found himself able to open up to Forest Annie in new ways, but he doesn't understand why. He reiterates that he knows that he's got an issue with relating to multiple people at once, but he doesn't know why it is. And then, with artwork very similar to the chapter icon and title image, he compares it to his mind being in a cage. Separated from control over his body, he can't make it do what he wants. But of course, this isn't true all the time. Right now, for example, he's talking to Jones. So when he's around at most one other person, he has the keys to the cage. But then there's Annie ... he loses the keys when she's around. I'm reading a lot in this thread about how his experience is resonating with those with autism and executive dysfunction. I greatly appreciate those who have come forward with their points of view. I would say that perhaps Tony's autistic, and I should leave it at that, except that: - His issue goes away, seemingly completely, when he's alone with just one other person (although we haven't seen him alone with that many characters, the list includes Don, Surma, Kat, and now Jones)
- Annie seems to be an exception to rule 1
- Forest Annie seems to be an exception to rule 2
I'm still getting the impression that those facts suggest that something more is going on. He may of course be autistic and have something etherically weird going on. What if at a young age his parents misguidedly tried to do something Ether-related to "cure" his autism? We're probably talking about the 1970s or so. The public impression of autism was kids who couldn't talk or write, assuming people had heard of it at all. Psychology didn't know much, and the average person knew even less.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 23, 2021 17:30:19 GMT
I don't know. I'm still thinking a volatile Nick Cage will make an appearance. Due to the reasons Tony is talking about, he'll be extra cautious not to upset Cage. Like minding the gap. My question is, does GC Nick Cage have etheric powers? Wait, does ours? I am now imagining a wildeyed Cage screaming in Annie's face - 'How'd it get BURNT?!' He's referring to the ball, of course.
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Post by rafk on Apr 23, 2021 17:44:33 GMT
Oh Gods, more Sympathy For The Tony stuff.
Unfortunately Tom's conception of the character and his actions don't marry up with the way many readers see it. I'm being as nice as possible. There is making readers knee jerk hate a character at first sight and then showing they should have sympathy, and there is making the character so objectively horrible as the abuser of their own child that that sympathy is not possible, and I have just come to accept Tom doesn't seem to see that's how he wrote Tony's actions. It's an old argument at this stage. GC has never been the same or as good since Tony's return took it to that darker more serious place.
I am just hoping that we can soon be past this and the incredibly crap "there's two Annies! Now there isn't! How long did we spend on that without it moving the plot forward at all?" story arc and get back to some storytelling rather than the cod psychoanalysis of Annie and Tony that is constantly the worst part of GC.
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Post by worldsong on Apr 23, 2021 17:48:45 GMT
So, previously Tony had said that he'd thought he'd learned to treat (Court) Annie as her own person, separate from his Surma baggage, but the coming of Forest Annie proved him wrong. Here he says that he found himself able to open up to Forest Annie in new ways, but he doesn't understand why. He reiterates that he knows that he's got an issue with relating to multiple people at once, but he doesn't know why it is. And then, with artwork very similar to the chapter icon and title image, he compares it to his mind being in a cage. Separated from control over his body, he can't make it do what he wants. But of course, this isn't true all the time. Right now, for example, he's talking to Jones. So when he's around at most one other person, he has the keys to the cage. But then there's Annie ... he loses the keys when she's around. I'm reading a lot in this thread about how his experience is resonating with those with autism and executive dysfunction. I greatly appreciate those who have come forward with their points of view. I would say that perhaps Tony's autistic, and I should leave it at that, except that: - His issue goes away, seemingly completely, when he's alone with just one other person (although we haven't seen him alone with that many characters, the list includes Don, Surma, Kat, and now Jones)
- Annie seems to be an exception to rule 1
- Forest Annie seems to be an exception to rule 2
I'm still getting the impression that those facts suggest that something more is going on. He may of course be autistic and have something etherically weird going on. What if at a young age his parents misguidedly tried to do something Ether-related to "cure" his autism? We're probably talking about the 1970s or so. The public impression of autism was kids who couldn't talk or write, assuming people had heard of it at all. Psychology didn't know much, and the average person knew even less. It's entirely possible that there's something etheric involved but honestly I don't find it that strange that Tony regains control when he's only dealing with one person. Dealing with one person is so much easier than dealing with a group. In general it just feels like you can actually afford to show a bit about what your real opinions and thoughts instead of having to carefully navigate the rivers of group politics. And Annie being the exception also is understandable given there's a complicated history involved. It doesn't even need to be the case that with Annie he's afraid of what she might think, he just has so many issues which are directly tied to Annie that he seizes up. Oh Gods, more Sympathy For The Tony stuff. Unfortunately Tom's conception of the character and his actions don't marry up with the way many readers see it. I'm being as nice as possible. There is making readers knee jerk hate a character at first sight and then showing they should have sympathy, and there is making the character so objectively horrible as the abuser of their own child that that sympathy is not possible, and I have just come to accept Tom doesn't seem to see that's how he wrote Tony's actions. It's an old argument at this stage. GC has never been the same or as good since Tony's return took it to that darker more serious place. I am just hoping that we can soon be past this and the incredibly crap "there's two Annies! Now there isn't! How long did we spend on that without it moving the plot forward at all?" story arc and get back to some storytelling rather than the cod psychoanalysis of Annie and Tony that is constantly the worst part of GC. I'd guess that Tom doesn't see it that way because his perspective aligns more with the people who can muster up sympathy for Tony.
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Post by bedinsis on Apr 23, 2021 18:08:21 GMT
I am just hoping that we can soon be past this and the incredibly crap "there's two Annies! Now there isn't! How long did we spend on that without it moving the plot forward at all?" story arc and get back to some storytelling rather than the cod psychoanalysis of Annie and Tony that is constantly the worst part of GC. The other day I had the thought that the plot has been jogging in place ever since Loup appeared. Then I realized that: No, it hasn't. It has always been a story juggling multiple plot-threads without a clearly set goal. The only thing that's different is that Loup's attack meant that the plot suddenly got something more urgent to focus on, meaning the normal pace of the comic only feels slower in comparison.
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Post by rafk on Apr 23, 2021 18:09:35 GMT
It's always a problem when stories are dragged out over so many years. The writer isn't the same person with the same views and experiences and interests they were at the start; neither are long time readers. It's so hard to stick the landing.
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Post by silicondream on Apr 23, 2021 18:19:31 GMT
Count me in the "one person is infinitely easier to deal with than two people" camp. When I'm anxious, I want to please, and there's no way to perfectly please person A without leaving person B dissatisfied. The three-body problem has no closed-form solution! And yep, it is sounding like he could interact with Fannie better because he might not have believed she was really an Antimony on some level.. Perhaps. Or, because he allowed himself to feel that disbelief and suspicion at first, he was quickly able to move past it and accept that she was Antimony. Again, most of the people close to Annie have blown up at her at some point. Renard had his initial assault and then the confrontation in Fire Spike. Eglamore snapped at her after rescuing her from Ysengrin, and was initially hostile to Forest Annie. Even Kat had her “omigod, Annie!” moment with Alistair, her “you make it hard to be your friend” moment in From the Forest She Came, and her recent freakout at the twin Annies. I’m not saying Annie deserves to be momentarily rejected; I’m just saying that many of her loved ones occasionally find her physically or psychologically impossible, and this is how they cope. Tony doesn’t do blowups, and until now he couldn’t even admit his anger to himself. That probably just made it fester, though. Kat’s somewhat similar in that way. - His issue goes away, seemingly completely, when he's alone with just one other person (although we haven't seen him alone with that many characters, the list includes Don, Surma, Kat, and now Jones)
- Annie seems to be an exception to rule 1
- Forest Annie seems to be an exception to rule 2
I don’t think Annie’s much of an exception to rule 1; she’s the least “just one” person on the planet. She has her own tendencies to dissociate, and she’s constantly having psychic side conversations with other etheric beings. Including, most uncomfortably for Tony, Renard. (Imagine having the creature who threatened your wife and your daughter watching your every family reaction with his beady little stuffed-animal eyes...) And Surma is always metaphorically and metaphysically in the room. Conversely, Forest Annie was significantly more independent, and--at least at first--significantly more isolated. That first night at Tony’s house, even Renard was gone. It may have been the first private father-daughter moment they've had since Tony's reunion; I'm not sure they spent any significant time together (minus angry Kat) inside the White Room.
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Post by puntino on Apr 23, 2021 18:58:08 GMT
Huh, I did not expect so many neurodiverget folks saying they relate, as I relate very much as well, but from a diffrent angle - I'm neurotypical as far as I know, but I suffer from depression that had mostly been treated and the biggest thing that remains is executive dysfunction - which is the thing that seem so Tony-like, wanting to do things but being unable to. Shoutout to people with Depression and other mental illnesses who deal with this. Disclaimer: I haven't been formally diagnosed with Autism, but I do have ADHD, Autism's "sister disorder", and my biggest symptom is executive dysfunction. Executive dysfunction is actually what I was referring to when I said I painfully relate to Tony's "mind cage". It's a strange, sad kind of experience to be mentally screaming at your body to do a task, and it just...doesn't do it. It's a very weird feeling seeing something I've struggled with for quite some time being described as a medical thing, one that other people go through. Huh. Besides that, although I had seriously disliked Tony from his first shocking actions, and that I still do not condone anything that he's done, all this development goes to show that there's much more going under the hood when bad things like these happen. It's not that it should be justified, but people are always seem too quick to jump from the "understand" phase to the "judgement" one.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 23, 2021 20:29:07 GMT
Count me in the "one person is infinitely easier to deal with than two people" camp. When I'm anxious, I want to please, and there's no way to perfectly please person A without leaving person B dissatisfied. The three-body problem has no closed-form solution! Increase your body count to four. That way the two who you don't please can commiserate. Really, is there any problem that increasing the body count high enough can't solve? And yep, it is sounding like he could interact with Fannie better because he might not have believed she was really an Antimony on some level.. Perhaps. Or, because he allowed himself to feel that disbelief and suspicion at first, he was quickly able to move past it and accept that she was Antimony. Perhaps, but I can't help but remember what he says in the last two panels of the previous page. He isn't just talking about his initial reaction to Fannie. I think he's referring to Courtnie when he says, "The same thing happened when I returned to the Court and saw Antimony again after all those years... But living with her in this house I thought I had learned to see her differently. As her own person. The Antimony that returned from the forest (Fannie) proved me wrong." (emphasis mine) I think that means that Fannie's arrival gave lie to his belief that he had come to see Antimony (Courtnie) as someone distinct from Surma. That's both good and bad, I suppose, and I'm not entirely sure I believe him on that count because he didn't react the same as when he first returned, but he then marvels at how he was able to open up to Fannie. I'd like to believe that it was just the break in continuity and/or the chance to do things over with a younger version of Antimony, and maybe it is on an intellectual level... Again, most of the people close to Annie have blown up at her at some point. Renard had his initial assault and then the confrontation in Fire Spike. Eglamore snapped at her after rescuing her from Ysengrin, and was initially hostile to Forest Annie. Even Kat had her “omigod, Annie!” moment with Alistair, her “you make it hard to be your friend” moment in From the Forest She Came, and her recent freakout at the twin Annies. I’m not saying Annie deserves to be momentarily rejected; I’m just saying that many of her loved ones occasionally find her physically or psychologically impossible, and this is how they cope. The bonus page at the end of the comic will be everyone who knows Antimony Carver forming a Antimony-survivor support group.
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 23, 2021 21:06:10 GMT
It's entirely possible that there's something etheric involved but honestly I don't find it that strange that Tony regains control when he's only dealing with one person. Dealing with one person is so much easier than dealing with a group. In general it just feels like you can actually afford to show a bit about what your real opinions and thoughts instead of having to carefully navigate the rivers of group politics. And Annie being the exception also is understandable given there's a complicated history involved. It doesn't even need to be the case that with Annie he's afraid of what she might think, he just has so many issues which are directly tied to Annie that he seizes up. I have some social anxiety and definitely find it far easier to have a relaxing conversation with one person than with more than one. Now, granted, I don't have a level of social anxiety that some people have, but this seems to go far beyond even the crippling level to being literally unable to say or do anything but the bare minimum, no matter how hard Tony wants to or tries to. And then, around one person (or at least with most individuals), it's completely gone.
Or ... is it? Something we haven't seen yet is Tony's description of what it's like when there's just one other person around. Does he still feel like he's in a cage, just a roomier one with softer bars? Or is the cage feeling entirely gone? Is the Tony we see in such situations the real Tony, or just a less rigid one? What's the real Tony like? Yes, as I've said before, readers who are denying that the Tony we're seeing on the page is a portrayal of the character that they can accept are denying the story's reality as presented to us. We saw things entirely from Annie's perspective early on when (and because) Tony was absent, and when he returned we saw things from her perspective again because of the creator's choices. But we've been getting glimpses of Tony's perspective, and as usual things are more complicated than "Tony = villain." I don't think anyone in this comic is a villain; I think everyone has a reason for what they do. But I know it can be hard to accept that someone might have actual real reasons for doing horrible things to another person at one point or another. It makes us wonder whether we might do the same, if we were in the same situation. It makes us wonder whether we have the potential for evil. Everyone has the potential to harm others, in my opinion, and not all of us always make the right choices at crucial moments. And no, I'm not apologizing for Tony, because there are things he could be doing right now that he isn't doing, such as explaining to his own daughter and only family what it's like to be him, not to mention apologizing for the terrible stuff he's put Annie through, which to our knowledge he still hasn't explained to her firsthand. This guy has made some bad mistakes, and he's continuing to make them. But they're mistakes.
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Post by aline on Apr 23, 2021 22:31:57 GMT
He isn't just talking about his initial reaction to Fannie. I think he's referring to Courtnie when he says, "The same thing happened when I returned to the Court and saw Antimony again after all those years... But living with her in this house I thought I had learned to see her differently. As her own person. The Antimony that returned from the forest (Fannie) proved me wrong." (emphasis mine) I think that means that Fannie's arrival gave lie to his belief that he had come to see Antimony (Courtnie) as someone distinct from Surma. That's both good and bad, I suppose, and I'm not entirely sure I believe him on that count because he didn't react the same as when he first returned, but he then marvels at how he was able to open up to Fannie. I'd like to believe that it was just the break in continuity and/or the chance to do things over with a younger version of Antimony, and maybe it is on an intellectual level... Feeling the same but not reacting the same is a fairly normal thing I'd think, we all learn from our mistakes. He restrained himself instead of lashing out this time because he had better self-awareness than the first time around. He recognized he wasn't thinking straight so he shut up. He himself doesn't know why he was more comfortable with Forest!Annie than Court!Annie. So I don't think there is such a straightforward link with how he perceived her when he first saw her. It may have factored into it, but surely there is more to it. Court!Annie and Forest!Annie are a bit like aspects of the same person. They're both Annie, but different parts of Annie are more predominant in them. Maybe Court!Annie would be the "good daughter" aspect, being the one who just spent six months doing homework, protecting the Court and trying to make her dad proud. And Forest!Annie would be the wild supernatural one who was off bargaining with gods and getting caught up im timey wimey shenanigans. Court!Annie was the one who started wearing her mom's make up again "to remember her", didn't want to let the illusion of Surma go, who taunted the other Annie about still having Surma's necklace that Forest!Annie didn't have because she was off adventuring. In a way, Forest!Annie is the Annie Tony has kinda been suppressing by his very presence? The one who is more independant, who annoys the Court officials constantly by being so difficult to control. Maybe Tony could see Forest!Annie more as who she is (once past the initial emotional response) because she doesn't bother as much to put on a mask. Maybe Court!Annie's more prominent preoccupation with "working on her relationhip" with her dad and honoring her mom's memory freaked him out a bit, given his huge guilt-trips about being the man who killed Annie's mom. Anyway. I think he's fairly close to figuring out his hangups and getting closer to this new Annie who's more at peace with herself. He hasn't lost anybody, she's right here. If he lets her, she'll be free around him, and in turn he'll be able to be free around her. PS: Can I say that I just loved this page on reread: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2079Look at him. The man is sitting completely relaxed letting the girls deal with the sudden intrusion of Forest creatures. He did not even look up. Completely confident that the teens were dealing with that situation without breaking a sweat.
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 23, 2021 23:48:34 GMT
To add on to the "why only one on one?", a conversation between two other people is more intimidating to contribute to. There are fewer conversational gaps to jump in on, there is the constant risk of interrupting what someone else is saying, and you have to gauge the reaction of two people to your contribution, which means that chance that you make an poor impression more than doubles. I have enough difficulty convincing myself a social interaction with one other person didn't end in accidentally embarrassing myself, let alone when there are two potential sources of imagined judgement. [emphasis mine] I know this experience all too well. It's a bit comforting to learn that I'm not alone.
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Post by maxptc on Apr 23, 2021 23:53:55 GMT
It always feels like I'm defending Tony when I post about him, and I really don't mean to be because of all the bad things he's done, but the dude just screams borderline personality to me, in addition to being twice broken by life, that we know of (Surmas death and his attempt to undo it). I just have a really hard time being harsh on people who are broken and suffer with mental troubles as long as they are making a sincere effort, even if it's a failing effort or a whole person could see what they should be doing with ease. If he didn't have all his mental issues I'd say someone just needs to slap Tony on the head and tell him to hug his daughter and be more open about his feelings and thought process. But thats obviously the issue, he doesn't have full control over how he expresses himself, despite being a very controlled person. Seriously even if it was possible before, I'm starting to doubt that anyone, even Tony himslef or a magic therapist, could fix Tonys level of messed up, he has seen to much for someone with his issues, he's as broken as it gets, trying to hold himself together for someone he can barely look at. He can battle it and do better sure, but this is who he is. Sad, but doesn't excuse any of his behavior, and Annie deserving better can't change who someone is fundamentally. If I knew Annie I'd just be hoping she makes it to 18 without to much damage so she can minimize his influence, because I don't see how the relationship becomes healthy. Maybe Jones can work some magic and truly help him, or maybe he can treat the new fusion Annie at least as well as he did Fannie despite his inner thoughts, but I just don't think so.
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Post by ysenfrown on Apr 24, 2021 0:08:07 GMT
I swear this is the most AUTISTIC thing that's been said so far in this comic. This is why it was so painful for me to watch forum members speculate about a magical, etheric, or otherwise supernatural explanation for the way Tony is. Feeling like your mind is trapped in a cage that blocks your body from doing what you want it to do is a very real, very neurodiverse sensation, and it freaking hurts. It pains me to relate so much to this man. See, I think the thing is that I love having neurodivergent representation in this comic, and though I have complex feelings towards Tony in general, overall I love him as a character in this comic & will always remember reading the update where he appears and FREAKING out in excitement for what that means for the comic. But I worry that what Tom's leading towards is an etheric explanation for the way Tony is, which would contribute to why the Arbiter was brought up in the first place. I don't want this to happen, and I would love!! to be proven wrong (and have fingers crossed that this chapter will help with this). Agree a lot with this. Most of my complicated feelings towards Tony is how his harm towards Annie hasn't been resolved, but instead seems to be explained away? Like, oh, it's okay that he forced Annie to not wear makeup, because it's really just her hanging onto Surma. It's okay that he abandoned her, because it was to figure out how to get her mother back. Generally, I feel like the comic is gradually working towards resolution, which is why I'm personally okay with Tony's characterization as of right now (and I can't imagine this comic ending with Tony and Annie's relationship on a cliffhanger) but resolution of those above items is on my bucket list of things I want to see and which I think this chapter is working towards.
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 24, 2021 0:14:22 GMT
When it comes to Tony, I've often been reminded of Panel 1 on this page. We now understand more of the true anguish behind that casually-tossed-out comment.
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 24, 2021 1:43:19 GMT
... this seems to go far beyond even the crippling level to being literally unable to say or do anything but the bare minimum, no matter how hard Tony wants to or tries to. Small disagreement: Tony doesn't have a problem with talking when there's multiple people around--even when Eglamore is practically yelling in his face. It's more that he's "strictly business"--very formal, prefers to talk about facts, doesn't open up or share his feelings. The personable, relaxed side of him is what can't come out unless he's one on one.
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Post by Fishy on Apr 24, 2021 2:03:22 GMT
All this looking back on when Tony first arrived is reminding me that we never got to see wacky hijinks in the Friends apartment. I forgive a lot about Tony but I don't think I'll ever quite get over that. Such missed potential, it looked like such a comfy setting.
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Post by drmemory on Apr 24, 2021 4:09:33 GMT
It would be really cool to get Tony into Zimmyland. I wonder what Zimmy and Gamma would see inside Tony's head? I don't think Tom will give Tony an instant fix or anything, or at least I'd be pretty surprised, but perhaps we'll learn even more about what's going on there. It would at least be nice to know why original Annie and Cannie were exceptions to the "one person seems ok" rule, where Fannie was not.
Here's something else to think about. Let's assume that this really is a mental health issue, and not some sort of weird etheric thing. Honestly, that seems likely to me, but you never know in GC. Anyway, he's been like this as long as we've known about him, all the way back to the flashbacks to the hospital and the jungle and even just hanging out with the other kids. So it's not a recent change. I mean, it COULD be a weird etheric thing, but it would have had to have happened when he was quite young, right? Before we first saw him, at any rate.
My question is, can this sort of thing be inherited? Does Annie have it? I'm thinking not - we have seen her with her mask in the ether, that she values, and we've seen her struggle with her temper and occasionally lose the battle. She doesn't really seem emotionally crippled, we've seen pretty nuanced emotions from her, but she tries to keep her mask in place. To me, this seems more like wanting to be like Daddy (whom she clearly loves) rather than her own copy of his problem.
Still, I guess I'm wondering if Annie's masked emotions are more likely to be nature or nurture.
Also, I'm curious as to what Tony will say when Jones asks him about Annie's mental state. She is not easily distracted from her goal!
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Post by drmemory on Apr 24, 2021 4:19:46 GMT
Oops. Almost forgot. The fact that Tony was able to interact so well with Fannie is pretty strong evidence that she isn't the original Annie. It doesn't say anything else about her, like whether she is a part of a split Annie or an Annie shifted from another timeline or just an Annie created by Loup, but she isn't Annie Prime. Wasn't, whatever.
Hmmm. Not created by Loup either. Coyote said he can't create the spark of life from nothing, and Loup is less than the sum of his parts...
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Post by 0o0f on Apr 24, 2021 8:42:49 GMT
When it comes to Tony, I've often been reminded of Panel 1 on this page. We now understand more of the true anguish behind that casually-tossed-out comment. Was just rereading this chapter. A lot of truth is spoken in jest... Anyway I don't have quite the issues Tony has but it makes sense that it's easier to interact with one person, or alternatively be "all business" because it's less unpredictable to deal with. Less risk of being caught off guard or overwhelmed, because you have just this one person or task to focus on. I can be easily susceptible to overwhelm in situations that I don't know how to deal with, which is why I think I can see where Tony is coming from (without saying it justifies his treatment of Annie...I don't know if it sounds like I'm making excuses but I just think he is an interesting character). So he seems to have a lot of willpower when it comes to cutting his own hand off to make trades with suspect spirits, but he was a surgeon so performing surgery on himself is relatively straightforward compared to something like a social situation he doesn't have as much handle on. And I imagine he was in a state of tunnel-vision on his quest for Surma's soul.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 24, 2021 11:06:02 GMT
It would be really cool to get Tony into Zimmyland. I wonder what Zimmy and Gamma would see inside Tony's head? I don't think Tom will give Tony an instant fix or anything, or at least I'd be pretty surprised, but perhaps we'll learn even more about what's going on there. It would at least be nice to know why original Annie and Cannie were exceptions to the "one person seems ok" rule, where Fannie was not. Here's something else to think about. Let's assume that this really is a mental health issue, and not some sort of weird etheric thing. Honestly, that seems likely to me, but you never know in GC.
It's already very unlikely. As in, if his problem is caused by "magical" shenanigans, those must be very subtle, perhaps even indirect. Jack style "ether cooties" are straight out. Because both Antimony via blinker stone (most of Chapter 52) and Renard (most of Chapters 51-55, as it's not like he had a lot of other things to do) ether-watched Anthony very closely and as far as we know, neither of them noticed anything unusual enough to be worth a comment, much less worries.
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Post by speedwell on Apr 24, 2021 11:30:20 GMT
The other neurodivergent people in the forum have said good and true things. <3 To what's already been said, I want to also vote for "executive dysfunction", "depersonalisation", and "depression".
For those of you moaning that we will just have to live with this like a sore toe when it rains, I want to point out that I was a few years older than Tony is here before my autism was recognised as more than just "depression with anxiety". With the help of that therapist I learned ways to escape the "cage". I still live in the cage. But now I have a key to the lock.
Tony may never be neurotypical, but I can recognise that he is the sort who genuinely wants to find ways to fit better in the "world outside", as opposed to my autistic husband, for example, who is so exhausted trying to cope that he mostly sees his cage as the boundary of who he is. If Jones is able to give Tony good advice, he will still have trouble leaving the cage once and for all. By this age he's lived in it so long that it can't be separated from his sense of self. It's OK for an adult to say, "this is what shaped who I am and here are the mechanisms I use to compensate", and it's OK for them to say, "I need some time to myself" when things get overwhelming.
I still want to point out that Tony didn't appear to feel that sense of overwhelm and caged-in-ness when he was traveling and meeting all sorts of people. I could be wrong about that, though... maybe when meeting with a group of tribal elders, he was able to interact meaningfully with them as a group... but I doubt that very much; I think it more likely that his aloofness made him seem mysterious and important. Make of that what you will.
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Post by adenil on Apr 24, 2021 13:26:59 GMT
I'm most interested in Tony's "you know how I am, Jones." It's easy to forget but Jones was around the parents since they were kids. Although she spent more time with Eglamore she would also know Tony, and his statement provides an interesting insight into that. Did they have other heart-to-hearts like this one? Maybe this isn't the first time Jones has pulled Tony aside and tried a polite interrogation.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on Apr 24, 2021 13:42:15 GMT
... this seems to go far beyond even the crippling level to being literally unable to say or do anything but the bare minimum, no matter how hard Tony wants to or tries to. Small disagreement: Tony doesn't have a problem with talking when there's multiple people around--even when Eglamore is practically yelling in his face. It's more that he's "strictly business"--very formal, prefers to talk about facts, doesn't open up or share his feelings. The personable, relaxed side of him is what can't come out unless he's one on one. Well, he's able to teach a full classroom, which is not exactly easy even for people who can be themselves in a group. And I find it rather interesting that he did speak up his emotions back then – whether it was professional speaking or not, unless no makeup is a school policy of broader validity, it had a personal subtext. He could have left that also for after the class, but then it was not a problem to him. Convenient, say I.
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Post by speedwell on Apr 24, 2021 14:45:49 GMT
Small disagreement: Tony doesn't have a problem with talking when there's multiple people around--even when Eglamore is practically yelling in his face. It's more that he's "strictly business"--very formal, prefers to talk about facts, doesn't open up or share his feelings. The personable, relaxed side of him is what can't come out unless he's one on one. Well, he's able to teach a full classroom, which is not exactly easy even for people who can be themselves in a group. And I find it rather interesting that he did speak up his emotions back then – whether it was professional speaking or not, unless no makeup is a school policy of broader validity, it had a personal subtext. He could have left that also for after the class, but then it was not a problem to him. Convenient, say I. As an autistic person who worked for years as a classroom trainer for a multinational oilfield engineering company, I can assure you that it's really not what you expect - after all, there's no real pressure to "be yourself" when you're playing the part of the teacher, although it is better the more you can. The trainer controls nearly every aspect of the situation, both in terms of the learning environment and the interactions between people. The trainer prepares the lecture ahead of time, clear social boundaries are enforced, and in many cases even the vocabulary is limited. Students come in expecting to be compliant. If the trainer is supported by administrative staff in case of emergencies such as the power going out or the caterer not showing up with lunch, it's really pretty comfortable. The cherry on the sundae was that I wound up with a huge proportion of students with a lesser or greater degree of neurodivergence, as you often do in a technical setting. Not trying to "make you wrong" here... just pointing out something from the point of view of having been there.
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 24, 2021 16:55:00 GMT
I'm most interested in Tony's "you know how I am, Jones." It's easy to forget but Jones was around the parents since they were kids. Although she spent more time with Eglamore she would also know Tony, and his statement provides an interesting insight into that. Did they have other heart-to-hearts like this one? Maybe this isn't the first time Jones has pulled Tony aside and tried a polite interrogation. An interesting question, and I wonder if others have tried as well, particularly Don. Don is probably Tony's oldest and closest friend, so I wonder if Don ever tried to explore Tony's behavior with him. On the other hand, we know that a head-on approach never really works with Tony, and Don probably has more experience with this than anyone. I imagine Tony has pushed away anyone - Don, likely Surma, maybe others - who tried to get him to open up. It's interesting that only now is he able to express his inner turmoil to someone else. Is it because the other person is Jones, is it personal growth, or something else?
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Post by speedwell on Apr 24, 2021 17:55:31 GMT
I'm most interested in Tony's "you know how I am, Jones." It's easy to forget but Jones was around the parents since they were kids. Although she spent more time with Eglamore she would also know Tony, and his statement provides an interesting insight into that. Did they have other heart-to-hearts like this one? Maybe this isn't the first time Jones has pulled Tony aside and tried a polite interrogation. An interesting question, and I wonder if others have tried as well, particularly Don. Don is probably Tony's longest and closest friend, so I wonder if Don ever tried to explore Tony's behavior with him. On the other hand, we know that a head-on approach never really works with Tony, and Don probably has more experience with this than anyone. I imagine Tony has pushed away anyone - Don, likely Surma, maybe others - who tried to get him to open up. It's interesting that only now is he able to express his inner turmoil to someone else. Is it because the other person is Jones, is it personal growth, or something else? I don't mean to be flippant, but I think it's like talking to the cat.
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ffkonoko
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Post by ffkonoko on Apr 24, 2021 19:01:52 GMT
And yep, it is sounding like he could interact with Fannie better because he might not have believed she was really an Antimony on some level. Sigh. I'd pretty solidly say the opposite. It's not like he was able to interact with other not-antimony people people. He explicitly said he THOUGHT he had been able to accept court-annie as her own person, but it was forest annie that disproved that. Because he accepted Fannie as being Antimony, moreso? Edit: Also, I think he believed he had overcome it, and knew it was not fair, or right...but also his daughters existence is predicated on literally draining the life out of his wife, compounding onto the guilt of him having convinced her into having said child despite knowing how the fire elemental thing works, and his failure to fulfill those promises. Those feelings are not logical or right. But they are also strong, and not dealt with. His emotions still locking down when dealing with Annie when he was still struggling with compartmentalizing those issues? He doesn't know why, but I think it's a safety thing.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 24, 2021 19:05:38 GMT
It would be really cool to get Tony into Zimmyland. I wonder what Zimmy and Gamma would see inside Tony's head? I don't think Tom will give Tony an instant fix or anything, or at least I'd be pretty surprised, but perhaps we'll learn even more about what's going on there. It would at least be nice to know why original Annie and Cannie were exceptions to the "one person seems ok" rule, where Fannie was not. Here's something else to think about. Let's assume that this really is a mental health issue, and not some sort of weird etheric thing. Honestly, that seems likely to me, but you never know in GC.
It's already very unlikely. As in, if his problem is caused by "magical" shenanigans, those must be very subtle, perhaps even indirect. Jack style "ether cooties" are straight out. Because both Antimony via blinker stone (most of Chapter 52) and Renard (most of Chapters 51-55, as it's not like he had a lot of other things to do) ether-watched Anthony very closely and as far as we know, neither of them noticed anything unusual enough to be worth a comment, much less worries. Right, and add to that that Surma also looked at him in the Ether in "Get Lost", and apart from the absurd face he made on purpose he looked like a normal human.
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