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Post by pyradonis on Apr 24, 2021 19:06:24 GMT
Really, is there any problem that increasing the body count high enough can't solve? Sounds like something an Order Of The Stick character would say. |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 24, 2021 23:23:27 GMT
Oh Gods, more Sympathy For The Tony stuff. Unfortunately Tom's conception of the character and his actions don't marry up with the way many readers see it. I'm being as nice as possible. There is making readers knee jerk hate a character at first sight and then showing they should have sympathy, and there is making the character so objectively horrible as the abuser of their own child that that sympathy is not possible, and I have just come to accept Tom doesn't seem to see that's how he wrote Tony's actions. It's an old argument at this stage. GC has never been the same or as good since Tony's return took it to that darker more serious place. I am just hoping that we can soon be past this and the incredibly crap "there's two Annies! Now there isn't! How long did we spend on that without it moving the plot forward at all?" story arc and get back to some storytelling rather than the cod psychoanalysis of Annie and Tony that is constantly the worst part of GC. Beyond the fact that it doesn't take much effort to read the comments here to see that other people are enjoying this storyline and that there isn't a monolith of "readers" that feel differently than Tom, I just think this attitude towards storytelling isn't particularly useful. I feel like there are a subset of pop culture fans that only care about the plot and nothing else, and even if this doesn't describe you you're making that argument. I wouldn't say plot isn't important, but I would say plot is meaningless unless it's supported by good characterization. Moving the plot forward also isn't really necessary for good storytelling. There are brilliant pop culture works that have the bare minimum of plot that invest 99% of their effort on character work, and they're wonderful. I can't really think of an opposite example, of a work that invests all of its effort on plot and none on characters that works well. The plot is the timeline, it is a summary stripped of any emotional depth, mood, tension, or meaning behind the events happening. All of which isn't to suggest that the plot isn't important, but the idea that focusing on characters reacting to emotional or psychological events is spending time needlessly away from the plot is missing the point. |
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Post by silicondream on Apr 25, 2021 2:14:10 GMT
But we've been getting glimpses of Tony's perspective, and as usual things are more complicated than "Tony = villain." I just think that if we're capable of feeling sympathy for Ysengrin or Renard, Tony is not exactly a stretch. Increase your body count to four. That way the two who you don't please can commiserate. Really, is there any problem that increasing the body count high enough can't solve? It’s not working, lately they’re commiserating at meOh, I agree. I think he differentiated F but not C. Does he still feel like he's in a cage, just a roomier one with softer bars? Or is the cage feeling entirely gone? Is the Tony we see in such situations the real Tony, or just a less rigid one? What's the real Tony like? Necker cube, he insists! Now you’re init! I can’t speak for Gemminie, but I think that is Tony’s bare minimum. In all those scenes, talking is somewhere between painful and agonizing for him. He still does it, because stuff needs saying so Bat-Dad’s gotta, but he’s not having a great time inside the OK TONY STOP/GO Corral. I think that’s what comes out because it’s so hard for him. Everything has to be coded for maximum efficiency and minimum ambiguity. When we’re depressed or angry or migraining, each additional word is so draining and each misinterpretation is so painful. Why waste words? It might be helpful here to consider PlaTony’s Allegory of the Cave. He expresses this, and people perceive this. He howls a plea for help down haunted tunnels, and the outside world receives a mildly confusing voice recording. Such is the plight of a Britishman. It would be really cool to get Tony into Zimmyland. I wonder what Zimmy and Gamma would see inside Tony's head? Now in quadruphonix! Seriously, a completely photorealistic Minneapolis. Also there are no Nobodies but whenever you touch something it GOPs and is replaced by an exact duplicate of itself. The Bat-Phoenix inherits all wounds, but now they’re cauterized. Annie'll be okay. |
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Post by drmemory on Apr 25, 2021 2:26:50 GMT
It's already very unlikely. As in, if his problem is caused by "magical" shenanigans, those must be very subtle, perhaps even indirect. Jack style "ether cooties" are straight out. Because both Antimony via blinker stone (most of Chapter 52) and Renard (most of Chapters 51-55, as it's not like he had a lot of other things to do) ether-watched Anthony very closely and as far as we know, neither of them noticed anything unusual enough to be worth a comment, much less worries. Right, and add to that that Surma also looked at him in the Ether in "Get Lost", and apart from the absurd face he made on purpose he looked like a normal human. Yes, I agree, Tony has been seen in the ether and didn't look particularly unusual. But Zimmy and Gamma can sometimes see deeper. I'm specifically poking at this - the "little peek into someone's mind".
Z&G have quite a different view on things. They call it the "unseen world", and Zimmy specifically says that even though Annie can look beyond what most people can see, that there is still a lot that even she can't see. That in no way implies that Zimmy or Gamma can see everything, of course.
Still, I'm wondering what they would see if Tony were to end up in Zimmyland somehow. Maybe nothing would show, maybe they'd actually see a cage! If there actually was a specific cause, like a traumatic event in his past or the like, perhaps they could see that, or it might be acted out using whoever is around as puppets. Despite his issues, I'm pretty sure Tony has quite a strong will and a powerful mind, so I'm guessing if he were pulled in there, things would shape themselves around whatever it is he has going on.
I'm not expecting this to happen really, just thought it was an interesting idea. Even if he did end up in there somehow, there is no guarantee we'd see anything interesting - Zimmy can't control the effects, and if it's something natural (i.e. autism) there would really be nothing to see. It would only be interesting if his situation had an external cause, which I have no evidence for nor against.
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Post by warrl on Apr 25, 2021 3:16:18 GMT
Really, is there any problem that increasing the body count high enough can't solve? Sounds like something an Order Of The Stick character would say. "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Vaarsuvius |
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Post by wies on Apr 25, 2021 6:41:34 GMT
It is a bit more complicated with me, for I am not only diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum, but I am also deaf as well (albeit with hearing aids) but I can confirm how so much easier it is to talk with just one person than even with two.
You just have to converse with just one another mind. You can focus wholly on them, and be equals (in good circumstances of course) in contributing to the conversation. If you don't like the way the conversation goes, you can easily redirect it to something different.
But with two people new social dimensions open up. I notice how those two seem to converse more easily with each other than me, how much more fluid their talks seem, and sometimes I can't catch up. And it is bothersome to interrupt all the time to ask if, please, they can repeat that again? But also I have to calculate, especially in charged conversations, how the two persons will react to my words. People have also the irritating habit (myself included, heh) to not speak their mind. So I have to interpret the possibly existing underlaying layers as well. To guess where that spike of anger, that sigh, that lowered brow mean and come from.
If it is like that, it is much more difficult with even more people than two. I used to just stop moving and drown in these conversations. Turn my mind away from that chattering and turn it inwards. It is a way to cope, but also particulary isolating. I am only now just learning, after years of isolation, how to open up and to not fear and shun communication.
As for the body being like in a cage. I don't experience it usually as severely like that, but I do sympathize with the metaphor. I remember a few times in my life in a rather rough period where I as child was seized so with anger and rage that they drove me to throwing great tantrums because those were overwhelming emotions born out of unprocessed misery and because I didn't know how to control and express them, they controlled me instead.
The cage is really a resonant metaphor. It is hard to express everything I think about it and how it relates to me because I still need to mull it over. It has also been heartening, altough in a different way, that other people here also sympathized with it.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 25, 2021 7:32:54 GMT
I can't really think of an opposite example, of a work that invests all of its effort on plot and none on characters that works well. It's been a really long time since I read it but Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising pops into mind. There was character development but the cast of characters was huge so if I recall correctly the characters were simplified and development tended to be bare-bones. Sounds like something an Order Of The Stick character would say. "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Vaarsuvius Indeed. I am also reminded that "four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man." -- Klingon proverb Increase your body count to four. That way the two who you don't please can commiserate. Really, is there any problem that increasing the body count high enough can't solve? It’s not working, lately they’re commiserating at meThat sounds troubling. Are you bodying them hard enough? Are you sure they know you're the one making them unhappy? A well-timed "Muahahah" might help clue them in. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 26, 2021 11:54:32 GMT
Right, and add to that that Surma also looked at him in the Ether in "Get Lost", and apart from the absurd face he made on purpose he looked like a normal human. And presumably this wasn't the only time Surma looked at him out-of-body. Considering how much she used to revel in such things. Also, back then Renard was hanging around (before he snapped), and presumably his inherent ether-sight is always on and better. Yes, but that would be an early stage cursory glance, vs. late stage and continuous watching. In case of something insidious this could make a difference. Recently (Chapter 54) Coyote had a good look at "The Broken Man" as well, and presumably could see more. But he's The Coyote, almost nothing can be assumed from his reactions or lack thereof. So there's more evidence, but for me the parts with remote Antimony and Renard in Chapters 51-55 seem the most reliable and lest equivocal. Of course, even that is not guaranteed, considering e.g. how differently Kat and Antimony can see things (with that arrow). But about as good as it gets. |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 26, 2021 12:50:45 GMT
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Vaarsuvius Indeed. I am also reminded that "four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man." -- Klingon proverb "Sacrificing minions - is there any problem it can't solve?" -- Xykon |
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Post by bedinsis on Apr 26, 2021 15:55:18 GMT
Indeed. I am also reminded that "four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man." -- Klingon proverb "Sacrificing minions - is there any problem it can't solve?" -- Xykon Probably "Sir, we're out of minions." - Xykon's righthand goblin (presumably) |
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 27, 2021 3:26:58 GMT
"Sacrificing minions - is there any problem it can't solve?" -- Xykon Probably "Sir, we're out of minions." - Xykon's righthand goblin (presumably) "Who's this 'we,' minion?" - Xykon, presumably |
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