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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 9, 2021 7:03:00 GMT
Gotta side with Don. A crappy dad is usually better than no dad at all. Still hoping he improves some more, tho. |
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Post by madjack on Apr 9, 2021 7:03:58 GMT
Eglamore's words in the second half of panel 3 speaking to a lot of people right now.
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 9, 2021 7:06:05 GMT
Looks like we created our threads at the same time! I've deleted mine.
I don't know who that guy with the thick beard is, but he's not completely wrong. I believe in second chances, but Tony's got a lot of proving of himself to do.
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 9, 2021 7:08:25 GMT
Honestly, it's a much more chill take on Tony than Eglamore's ever given. Things have clearly changed for them over the 6 months Forest Annie was away. Or he's holding back in front of Donald.
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Post by wies on Apr 9, 2021 7:08:40 GMT
I love how Tom conveys the age of characters by the creases and wrinkles in their skin.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Apr 9, 2021 7:11:59 GMT
Honestly, it's a much more chill take on Tony than Eglamore's ever given. Things have clearly changed for them over the 6 months Forest Annie was away. Or he's holding back in front of Donald. I think Idra mellows him out a bit, she calls him out when he needs it, like here too. |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 9, 2021 7:27:10 GMT
Honestly, it's a much more chill take on Tony than Eglamore's ever given. Things have clearly changed for them over the 6 months Forest Annie was away. Or he's holding back in front of Donald. I think Idra mellows him out a bit, she calls him out when he needs it, like here too. Ahh yes, Clueless logic. I totally agree, Eglamore getting a steady has definitely contributed. |
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Post by basser on Apr 9, 2021 7:45:39 GMT
Lovely bit of internal character logic there with the lady from an aggressively family-oriented culture almost reflexively defending the right of a parent to get all up in their kid's business.
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Post by speedwell on Apr 9, 2021 8:33:04 GMT
Lovely bit of internal character logic there with the lady from an aggressively family-oriented culture almost reflexively defending the right of a parent to get all up in their kid's business. As an American woman with a scattered extended family, married to a Northern Irish man with very strong and local family, I live this  |
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Post by saardvark on Apr 9, 2021 11:40:53 GMT
all roads lead to Tony... It's beginning to look like Jones was on her way to interview Tony and may have bumped into Annie by coincidence.
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Post by migrantworker on Apr 9, 2021 13:13:48 GMT
Eglamore's words in the second half of panel 3 speaking to a lot of people right now. And I can't help but note that Tony has in fact been providing some structure to Annies' life at a time the Court has been unable to. |
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Post by DonDueed on Apr 9, 2021 14:19:04 GMT
all roads lead to Tony... It's beginning to look like Jones was on her way to interview Tony and may have bumped into Annie by coincidence. Yes, the pattern is clear -- every inquiry into Annie's situation devolves into a discussion of Tony. Jones could not possibly fail to make that connection, no matter how emotionless or non-human she is. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Apr 9, 2021 14:28:40 GMT
Gotta side with Don. A crappy dad is usually better than no dad at all. Still hoping he improves some more, tho. That's like saying spoiled meat is better than no meat at all. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Apr 9, 2021 14:29:25 GMT
Lovely bit of internal character logic there with the lady from an aggressively family-oriented culture almost reflexively defending the right of a parent to get all up in their kid's business. On point, as always. |
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Post by najmniejszy on Apr 9, 2021 14:29:53 GMT
I love Idra and hate Eggers, I hope she finds someone better, like a polycule with Bud and Lindsey (I hope I hemember her name correctly)
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Post by exterminatecake on Apr 9, 2021 14:49:50 GMT
I'm a certified Tony hater for personal reasons. Can't figure out if I'll love or hate this chapter yet, but I'm excited either way.
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Post by novia on Apr 9, 2021 15:24:22 GMT
Ok so, Jones' expressionless face looks a little judgey in panel 3.
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Post by saardvark on Apr 9, 2021 16:40:42 GMT
Gotta side with Don. A crappy dad is usually better than no dad at all. Still hoping he improves some more, tho. That's like saying spoiled meat is better than no meat at all. Though. at least people can change and improve. Spoiled meat can only get worse... (of course, people can do that too!) |
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Post by mturtle7 on Apr 9, 2021 17:00:56 GMT
Weirdly enough, I can't help kinda siding with Idra on this one! I mean, sure, Tony's a terrible father, but...it seems like a rather terrible and short-sighted train of thought to just go "well I guess he should just leave Annie alone forever then!" Annie doesn't need to be abandoned again (and yes, that is basically what Eglamore is wishing for here), she just needs Tony to stop emotionally shutting down every time she enters his field of view. She has a goddamn right to want to reconnect with her dad, and he has just as much of a right to at least try and be a part of his daughter's life. I mean, blood ties aren't exactly the ultimate family connection, but it really rankles me to see Eglamore casually dismissing the idea that it's any kind of connection at all, without even considering that Annie might have different feelings about that.
Furthermore....obviously Tony did some really awful stuff early on, and even now it clearly isn't easy for them to be living together, but that doesn't mean them living together is a bad thing, as opposed to the alternative. I think a lot of Jones' interviewees are thinking to themselves right now, "She was so much happier when he wasn't around! Why can't she just go on living without him like before?" But... was she? Was she really? Was she really happier, overall, than she's been in recent times? That's arguable, but regardless, it's just not Eglamore's place to decide that for her.
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Post by foxurus on Apr 9, 2021 17:04:36 GMT
Eglamore's words in the second half of panel 3 speaking to a lot of people right now. And I can't help but note that Tony has in fact been providing some structure to Annies' life at a time the Court has been unable to. Ah, I was coming here to say that! Jones likely won't talk to Kat, but it is interesting to me that Annie's closest friend would likely be the only person who doesn't mention Mr. Carver when asked how Annie's doing with the rejoining. |
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Post by maxptc on Apr 9, 2021 17:34:16 GMT
If Jim had this position only because of how Tony was currently treating Annie then I'd be like "okay, don't agree because he is trying, but fair nuff cause he is bad at it." But Jim just remains completely against anything Tony, no doubt mostly because of the Surma situation, and it's just reads as more and more petty. I get it, he just wants Tony to dissappear and for everyone to be happy once it happens, but it's just unrealistic, and would be bad for Annie on so many levels. What Jim wants isn't what Annie wants or needs, but he has a blind spot in regards to Tony.
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Post by frogspawned on Apr 9, 2021 17:56:30 GMT
Gotta side with Don. A crappy dad is usually better than no dad at all. Still hoping he improves some more, tho. That's like saying spoiled meat is better than no meat at all. Is it not? |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 9, 2021 18:40:08 GMT
Would it really have been out of character for Don to say "Dammit Jim!"?:-D
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Post by warrl on Apr 9, 2021 19:14:00 GMT
I love how Tom conveys the age of characters by the creases and wrinkles in their skin.  |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 9, 2021 19:27:24 GMT
Gotta side with Don. A crappy dad is usually better than no dad at all. I agree, but depends on the child, really. Not all kids are created equal, and some would do better without a crappy dad, than with one. Saying "Tony is far from perfect" would be putting too lightly, but he has had some positive influence, and was able to establish needed boundaries. However, he was more than little extreme with those boundaries. The relationship between Annie and Tony is a mess, but it's a relationship mixed with grief, blame, and personality disorders. It was bound to be an unpleasant mess. Tom has written it well. Looking forward to Jones talking with Tony. |
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jocobo
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Post by jocobo on Apr 9, 2021 20:15:11 GMT
0 is still more positive than -1 because at least it doesn't actively detract from the equation. Tony, as far as I am concerned is -1. No. He's -2. He's a diseased limb infecting the rest of the body and it's too late for antibiotics. Amputate it quickly, before it spreads even further and infects a vital organ I beg of you.
He's just such a terrible person;I don't get the apologetics people, and the comic itself, seemed determined to make for him.
And no, I don't accept that he feels bad about it as an excuse. Lots of abusers feel bad about it after. Boo Hoo. It doesn't undo the past.
I come from a very very tightly linked family. I can walk to no less than 3 miles in any direction and visit roughly 20 relatives all living in the same area. That's not an exaggeration. People don't move away, they move down the street so the family can stay together. We are insanely close.
I love my family.
But I love them for being GOOD at being my family. For being good people. If I wasn't related to them, I'd still want to be because they are GOOD to have in my life.
The blood connection itself is completely meaningless without the actions to back it up. It's the actual actions and way we've treated each other that makes the bond. That makes us a family. Not meager genetic ties.
Has Tony returning help put some structure back in here life?
Sure.
But she only NEEDED that structure because abandoned her in the first place and left her with a ton of unresolved emotional damage to begin with!
You don't good boy credits for helping build the orphanage after you burned the previous one down is what I'm saying.
Sorry for the rant.
I just really hate Tony. Possibly more than any fictional character I've ever hated.
And I already realize I'm going to be disappointed on any character arc involving Tony because everything about the way the narrative talks about him makes it abundantly clear it it's sympathetic towards him so he's almost certain to get away with everything he's done.
But I needed to get that rant out of my system.
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Post by maxptc on Apr 9, 2021 20:48:21 GMT
I love my family. But I love them for being GOOD at being my family. For being good people. If I wasn't related to them, I'd still want to be because they are GOOD to have in my life. The blood connection itself is completely meaningless without the actions to back it up. I mean I think the reason him being her blood dad isn't as big a deal for you as it is Annie is because she doesn't have a huge family of good people all around her and you do. If she had 50 aunts and uncles around who loved and supported her she'd be all "yeah, imma pass on you in my life Tony but thanks for trying" to Tony, but that's all the family she's got, and that matters. Having cool adults and friends involved isn't the same as family. When you don't got a lot of family around, or when the family you do have isn't as cool as your family is, it's kinda different. Annie has both of those situations. I guess what I'm saying is the reason your able to hate Tony so much is because if he was in your life as a dad or uncle or whatever you'd be able to cut him out and still have a family that is a support system. I'm guessing, so forgive me if I offend, but it sounds you haven't had the experience of loving and needing to lean on someone despite them having deep issues, typically mental health issues, which isn't necessarily Tony's deal(I think it is), but it is definitely close to that. |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 9, 2021 21:45:01 GMT
0 is still more positive than -1 because at least it doesn't actively detract from the equation. Tony, as far as I am concerned is -1. No. He's -2. He's a diseased limb infecting the rest of the body and it's too late for antibiotics. Amputate it quickly, before it spreads even further and infects a vital organ I beg of you. He's just such a terrible person;I don't get the apologetics people, and the comic itself, seemed determined to make for him. And no, I don't accept that he feels bad about it as an excuse. Lots of abusers feel bad about it after. Boo Hoo. It doesn't undo the past. But she only NEEDED that structure because abandoned her in the first place and left her with a ton of unresolved emotional damage to begin with! And I already realize I'm going to be disappointed on any character arc involving Tony because everything about the way the narrative talks about him makes it abundantly clear it it's sympathetic towards him so he's almost certain to get away with everything he's done. I get this position, and I mostly agree with your points. I don't think good actions going forward undo past actions. I don't think him feeling bad is an adequate excuse. A lot of her emotional damage stems from how he initially treated her. I think the narrative is neutral towards him, which I can see how you see it as sympathetic, and I wish there were other adults other than Eglamore that talked about his failures. I do think it's important, though, that we are pretty exact about what he did and does. He has 100% been neglectful, and that is a form of abuse. He is also cold, and reluctant to compliment Annie, which I don't know if I would call abuse on its own, but couple with him being neglectful is definitely a problem. I don't want to minimize any of that. But he has never, as far as I know, been emotionally manipulative or undermined Annie at any of the things she is actually capable of. Again, I don't want to discount any of his problems, but when we talk about abusive parents, ignoring the obvious physical, he has never been psychologically abusive in any form other than neglect. And his neglect is similar to sending her to a boarding school while he goes off to rehab. That is obviously not what it is, but it's not in practicality much different. I am not saying this to defend him, because I still think he has done possibly permanent emotional damage to his daughter. But I do think we should be more specific in how we talk about him. And while I think nothing will excuse or make up for how he treated his daughter, that doesn't mean it's wrong to be sympathetic for his despair at the death of his wife. |
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 9, 2021 21:51:41 GMT
My take on today's page: Jimmy Jims has just gotten done reminding us all about how complicated his feelings about Annie are. But he immediately changes the subject to his laser-focused Tony hate. Interesting that he says, "... I'd start with Carver. I mean, Tony." It's an afterthought that Annie's also a Carver. Kind of different from this. Possibly an overcorrection. Don reminds him that they all know about his personal bias against Tony. And he knows they know. He also knows that he's letting his personal feelings color his evaluation, and that everybody can tell. "Interfering with her life" – in what way is Tony interfering with Annie's life at present? Apparently he gives her homework. The Court is giving all the other students homework too, so how is that particularly interfering? She's living with him in the same house – which she wanted to do. (To play devil's advocate here, it was a way for her to get out of the Horrible Giant White Room of Relative Insignificance.) Is giving her homework not providing her with structure? He doesn't seem to prevent her from going around and doing things, like accidentally walking into Zimmingham while on the way to something else, or going somewhere or other with Kat. So what does James actually mean? That he should go back out on an expedition or something and abandon Annie again? That they should get together and forcibly remove Annie from his home in some sort of intervention/kidnapping thing? Idra, as others have already pointed out, is from a culture where everyone is immersed in family, and she clearly doesn't know the whole story, but she knows Tony's her dad, if not her only living family that anybody knows of. What would really throw a wrench in the works would be if other family showed up, like Tony's parents or siblings, or Surma's dad's family, presenting Annie with options. It's always been highly mysterious that not only do Tony's parents seem not to exist, but Surma's dad is never spoken of either. And of course, Idra doesn't know Tony. But ... does James? Do we? Does anyone? I'm not a Tony fan in the sense of thinking he's a great guy, but I do find him a fascinating character. I think he could be a great guy, but something prevents him, and I want to know what. He's made some very bad choices, sure, but he seems to have been driven to them by some pretty extreme outside forces. His emotional makeup is completely different – he seems neuro-atypical to an unrealistic degree. It makes me, you know, theorize. It's what I do. But what I don't understand is readers determined to hate him, even when the story itself points to redeeming qualities – if you're going to pick and choose which parts of Tony you consider to be in headcanon, ignoring what the story is presenting you with, is it really Tony you're hating? |
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Post by novia on Apr 9, 2021 22:17:39 GMT
So hey Tony h8rs, remember the name of this chapter (which is centering on Tony) is "the mind cage" so get ready for Tony to transform into the perfect dad and the perfect friend to Jimmy Jims after he's released.
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