[2452] "Oh, come on, Jim."

[jocobo]

Apr 9, 2021 21:51:41 GMT Gemminie said:

 But what I don't understand is readers determined to hate him, even when the story itself points to redeeming qualities – if you're going to pick and choose which parts of Tony you consider to be in headcanon, ignoring what the story is presenting you with, is it really Tony you're hating?

I'm not headcannoing them away. I'm aware of them. I just struggle to see their relevance to the final verdict.  I find them irrelevant to what makes Tony odious. He's very smart and apparently very good at what he does professionally. He has a sense of humor, even if he rarely shows it to his own daughter. He's clearly a very clever and determined man. He also sympathizes with the plight of the robots enough to help them circumvent the Court's rules such as when he helped Juliet and thus must be capable of some form of empathy he cannot express when in groups. I'm sure there are others I'm failing to mention but my point is, yes I'm aware Tony has positive traits.

But I'm jsut left shrugging my shoulders adn going, "And?".

It just doesn't matter to me. Because none of these redeeming qualities addresses what he's done that was wrong.

For a "flawed, but with hidden depths" character to work, for me, the good has to directly counter-balance the negatives. It's hard to pull off.

When the good parts about them are disconnected to the thing they've done wrong it just feels irreverent.

It sort of falls under "Yes, he abuses his family, but hey, did you know he volunteers in a soup kitchen on the weekends?" Sure that's great but how does that help his abused family? How does that address my issues with his actions?

Because I don't hate Tony for being different or depressed or stand-offish. I don't even hate him for struggling to hold a conversation with Annie.  See, it's not his disposition that makes him hatable. not his personality that makes him ahte.

No.

It's the things he's done that make him hatable.

I hate him for abandoning his daughter. I hate him for that time he almost killed her. I feel like people forget that when he topic of abuse and neglect come up. he literally almost killed her through his neglect.

Nothing he''s shown counteracts such extreme wrong-doing.

Which mind you, he had no original intention, even after almost accidentally murdering her, of returning. Ever. The Court had to blackmail him with Annie's expulsion for him to even show his face.  So he could have gotten redemption point for that if it was his idea, but it wasn't.

For every person who has ever lived, there is context and depth and trauma and causation. Very few people escape life unscathed. Some of us are born with more baggage than others.

But when it comes to addressing harmful actions, when it comes to the hurting of others, especially in the case of a child or someone else similarly vulnerable and completely at the mercy of the offender, I find that context is rarely enough to actually change the final judgment.

There are too many people out there who are neurodivergent ( and I will take this moment to make the caveat that his status has not actually been confirmed in comic yet and I really don't feel comfortable treating Tony as if he is until it's confirmed because it feels like really bad representation if so; the majority of neurodivergent people are good parents and don't abandon their children), who are traumatized, who are hurting, who have baggage who don't hurt others, especially not to the degree Tony has hurt Annie, for me to pity Tony.

So to answer the question, yes. It really is Tony that I am hating. Specifically for the things he's done. I'm not head-cannoning away his positive traits. They just are just non-sequiturs when the crime at hand is child abandonment and abuse.

[maxptc]

Apr 9, 2021 22:17:39 GMT novia said:

So hey Tony h8rs, remember the name of this chapter (which is centering on Tony) is "the mind cage" so get ready for Tony to transform into the perfect dad and the perfect friend to Jimmy Jims after he's released.

Ha, it would be pretty funny if the reason he can't be normal around more then one person and is so....off, is a literal "mind cage" and it can be removed. I'd bet money that would make the reaction to the last chapter seem mild.

[Gemminie]

Apr 9, 2021 23:57:51 GMT maxptc said:

Apr 9, 2021 22:17:39 GMT novia said:

So hey Tony h8rs, remember the name of this chapter (which is centering on Tony) is "the mind cage" so get ready for Tony to transform into the perfect dad and the perfect friend to Jimmy Jims after he's released.

Ha, it would be pretty funny if the reason he can't be normal around more then one person and is so....off, is a literal "mind cage" and it can be removed. I'd bet money that would make the reaction to the last chapter seem mild.

On the other side of things, a wildspec idea I had was something like this: we return to Jones, who has come to see Tony.

Jones: I was unaware until today that you were able to express yourself around one of your daughter's halves. This suggests a potentially dangerous imbalance. You know it will have to be adjusted.

Tony: I understand.

[flowsthead]

Apr 9, 2021 23:33:28 GMT jocobo said:

Apr 9, 2021 21:51:41 GMT Gemminie said:

 But what I don't understand is readers determined to hate him, even when the story itself points to redeeming qualities – if you're going to pick and choose which parts of Tony you consider to be in headcanon, ignoring what the story is presenting you with, is it really Tony you're hating?

I hate him for that time he almost killed her. I feel like people forget that when he topic of abuse and neglect come up. he literally almost killed her through his neglect.

Nothing he''s shown counteracts such extreme wrong-doing.

Which mind you, he had no original intention, even after almost accidentally murdering her, of returning. Ever. The Court had to blackmail him with Annie's expulsion for him to even show his face.  So he could have gotten redemption point for that if it was his idea, but it wasn't.

That seems incredibly unfair. Lied to by magical beings he has no way of understanding into unwittingly harming his daughter cannot be one of his base faults. That could literally happen to any of the regular humans. That's not Tony's personal weakness, that is a base human weakness.

Arguing that Tony almost killed Annie through neglect, is like arguing that everyone at the Court almost killed Annie every time she went into the forest. I don't think that logically tracks.

[jocobo]

Apr 10, 2021 0:54:37 GMT flowsthead said:

Apr 9, 2021 23:33:28 GMT jocobo said:

I hate him for that time he almost killed her. I feel like people forget that when he topic of abuse and neglect come up. he literally almost killed her through his neglect.

Nothing he''s shown counteracts such extreme wrong-doing.

Which mind you, he had no original intention, even after almost accidentally murdering her, of returning. Ever. The Court had to blackmail him with Annie's expulsion for him to even show his face.  So he could have gotten redemption point for that if it was his idea, but it wasn't.

That seems incredibly unfair. Lied to by magical beings he has no way of understanding into unwittingly harming his daughter cannot be one of his base faults. That could literally happen to any of the regular humans. That's not Tony's personal weakness, that is a base human weakness.

Arguing that Tony almost killed Annie through neglect, is like arguing that everyone at the Court almost killed Annie every time she went into the forest. I don't think that logically tracks.

If he had been at home with his daughter instead of heading off on a quest to revive the dead, it wouldn't have happened. The cardinal sin here was leaving her alone in the first place to go wallow in his self-destructive grief. So I do in fact still blame Tony. If he'd done his job as a father and stayed home with his also grieving daughter, could all have been avoided.

Which is why I say no, it couldn't have happened to anyone. Because most people wouldn't run off and leave their grieving child alone following the death of a spouse. If Tony were most people, he wouldn't have been talking to magical beings trying to revive the dead in the first place. It's not like they came to him. he sought them out. He thoughtless and reckless and that recklessness endangered Annie.

And that's the thing about neglect, it's often born not of malice but thoughtlessness. And Tony was being thoughtless. Thoughtlessness driven by grief, sure, but thoughtlessness nonetheless. He didn't think about any consequences. Hh didn't think about the trustworthiness of who he spoke to. He didn't think about the connection between Surma dying and Annie being born. He was thoughtless and from that thoughtlessness, was neglectful.

The court, when sending Annie into the Forest, took several precautions and it was done after consideration. They knew what they were getting into. They had Eglamore with his rescue beacon, personal assurances from Coyotte and Jones, with her thousands of years of experience agreeing she would probably be safe, as well the long standing treaty about not hurting each other.

Tony wasn't half as thoughtful when he did what he did.

[warrl]

Apr 9, 2021 21:45:01 GMT flowsthead said:

I do think it's important, though, that we are pretty exact about what he did and does. He has 100% been neglectful, and that is a form of abuse. He is also cold, and reluctant to compliment Annie, which I don't know if I would call abuse on its own, but couple with him being neglectful is definitely a problem. I don't want to minimize any of that. 

But he has never, as far as I know, been emotionally manipulative or undermined Annie at any of the things she is actually capable of. Again, I don't want to discount any of his problems, but when we talk about abusive parents, ignoring the obvious physical, he has never been psychologically abusive in any form other than neglect. And his neglect is similar to sending her to a boarding school while he goes off to rehab. That is obviously not what it is, but it's not in practicality much different.

He called the Court on the phone and asked to talk to Annie - and then completely snubbed her: everything he said to her, even the way he said her name, was part of a message to Mr. Donlan. Not a word actually for her, even while talking to her.

He got back to the Court, was assigned to teach a class, had an involved discussion about Annie's situation and status... this did not happen all in the morning before class; it probably took place over several days if not longer (I hope they didn't wait until the last minute to get a contract with a teacher). But he couldn't be bothered to talk to her or send her a message, even to let her know the relatively ordinary school-related business that her class schedule had been changed. The first she knew of his return was seeing him standing at the front of the classroom she'd been told she was supposed to be in.

And then he snubbed her when passing out textbooks, criticized her makeup in class while ignoring that several other girls were wearing makeup, and finally, after wasting the entire hour of her time, informed her that she was in the wrong place... which also means some other teacher has to help her make up that hour somehow. That was deliberate rudeness to her and to the other teacher.

Subsequently he ripped out a lot of her contact with any social support network she might have found by making her live separately from her classmates, and by demanding that Reynard be turned over to him. So he's taking over that role, right? Nope, he has her living separately from him, too, in what looks like a warehouse basement.

IMHO a lot of that was going out of his way to emotionally hurt her.

(About the time he almost killed her... there I believe he was deceived, and unaware that he was affecting her at all. Until Zimmy clarified things.)

[imaginaryfriend]

Not saying he was ever emotionally available or anything but I think we can infer that Antimony's personality was the way it was at the beginning of the comic because she received positive attention once in a while from Anthony if she acted that way; if she only got negative attention from him when she acted emotional or "fiery" then she'd act up more since bad attention is better than none. Then he apparently made the assumption that she would want to be treated like he would want because she behaved the way he trained her to, or at least I figure that is how he would rationalize the things he did, as if she did openly and regularly ask for his attention he probably would have left her to her own devices anyway. But in spite of all that if he did come with her to the Court he could at least interact with her briefly on the weekends and as time passed (and the Donlans worked their magic) he probably would have gotten a little better.

[pyradonis]

Jimmy Jims is the resident Carver expert.

Apr 9, 2021 22:17:39 GMT novia said:

So hey Tony h8rs, remember the name of this chapter (which is centering on Tony) is "the mind cage" so get ready for Tony to transform into the perfect dad and the perfect friend to Jimmy Jims after he's released.

If this is satirically referring to a previous event in the comic, I don't get it.

blazingstar: This thread is a little more like what I thought of recently when talking about hate for one of the comic's characters.

[novia]

Apr 10, 2021 10:37:08 GMT pyradonis said:

Jimmy Jims is the resident Carver expert.

Apr 9, 2021 22:17:39 GMT novia said:

So hey Tony h8rs, remember the name of this chapter (which is centering on Tony) is "the mind cage" so get ready for Tony to transform into the perfect dad and the perfect friend to Jimmy Jims after he's released.

If this is satirically referring to a previous event in the comic, I don't get it.

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2152

I'm speculating that Tony's social issues are a direct result of some implementation of this.

[Gemminie]

Apr 10, 2021 13:57:53 GMT novia said:

Apr 10, 2021 10:37:08 GMT pyradonis said:

Jimmy Jims is the resident Carver expert.

If this is satirically referring to a previous event in the comic, I don't get it.

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2152

I'm speculating that Tony's social issues are a direct result of some implementation of this.

You aren't the only one who's speculated this! If this is the case, then the obvious question is what rule of the Arbiters he broke (I'm assuming that Saslamel isn't the only Arbiter) that would have resulted in this, or, if it wasn't the Arbiters, what other shadowy ethereal agency's rules he broke. He seems to have had these issues since he was a pre-teen or early teen, at the latest – chapter 22 is the farthest back into his life we've seen, and he was already like that then. So he was a rule-breaker early on. Is it possible that the beings who later tricked him into cutting off his hand and unwittingly nearly killing his daughter were acting out of revenge for whatever he did back then? Although you'd think they would have said something about it once their trick was done. But perhaps they did, and Tony just didn't happen to mention that in the story he told Don. So that's where I've gone along that particular speculation route.

[warrl]

I want to add that Tony is a fantastic person... to have as a character in a story you're writing.

[pyradonis]

Apr 10, 2021 13:57:53 GMT novia said:

Apr 10, 2021 10:37:08 GMT pyradonis said:

Jimmy Jims is the resident Carver expert.

If this is satirically referring to a previous event in the comic, I don't get it.

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2152

I'm speculating that Tony's social issues are a direct result of some implementation of this.

Ohh, okay, I didn't make the connection. But the jail spoken of here is a physical jail too, so if it's really this, Tony would have to have gotten a "light" version.

[TBeholder]

Who does, indeed.

Apr 9, 2021 17:34:16 GMT maxptc said:

If Jim had this position only because of how Tony was currently treating Annie then I'd be like "okay, don't agree because he is trying, but fair nuff cause he is bad at it." But Jim just remains completely against anything Tony, no doubt mostly because of the Surma situation, and it's just reads as more and more petty. I get it, he just wants Tony to dissappear and for everyone to be happy once it happens, but it's just unrealistic, and would be bad for Annie on so many levels. What Jim wants isn't what Annie wants or needs, but he has a blind spot in regards to Tony.

More like a sore spot.
But generally, yes. Eglamore doesn't argue about what Tony did or how, just that it's Tony ("you don't know the man"). And while talking to Parley, he expressed suspicions that… don't seem plausible considering other observations.
So his opinion on this or any related matter is simple: "Well, that's Tony — he's sneaky and toxic, you can't expect anything wholesome when this guy is involved".

[silicondream]

Apr 10, 2021 5:48:39 GMT warrl said:

He called the Court on the phone and asked to talk to Annie - and then completely snubbed her:

It wasn't a phone call for Tony, nor did he ask for Annie. He was wandering around in the Caves of Delirium or wherever this is, and the Mysterious Entities sent his message to the first person he thought of. He had no idea it arrived by phone, and no way to reply when she picked up.

And then he snubbed her when passing out textbooks, criticized her makeup in class while ignoring that several other girls were wearing makeup, and finally, after wasting the entire hour of her time, informed her that she was in the wrong place... which also means some other teacher has to help her make up that hour somehow. That was deliberate rudeness to her and to the other teacher.

Most of that was probably mandated by the Court, though. The headmaster's faction, at least, follows boarding/military school tradition: emphasize that one person's misbehavior can make the whole machine break down. If time is wasted and staff are inconvenienced by your punishment, that just makes you doubly guilty.

I think it helps to remember that Annie was already the Court's second most notorious teenage delinquent at this point. (By now, she probably edges out Zimmy for #1.) She'd cheated, trespassed in forbidden zones, stolen and vandalized official equipment, refused to surrender Reynard, threatened Court/Wood relations on multiple occasions, helped Kat set off a robot liberation movement, and kiiiiinda almost set Eggers on fire. Of course much of that behavior was justified from the reader's point of view, but to Court authorities she was chaos incarnate.

Annie was in a very dangerous position. Friendly adults had warned her to change her ways, to no avail. The headmaster had already tried to publicly shame her once, and that rebounded on him badly, with Annie defecting to the Wood and gaining open support from other students and staff. If he was going to save her from exile, Tony had to prove very quickly and dramatically that he could curb both Annie's behavior and her disruptive influence.

Or so I think, anyway.

Subsequently he ripped out a lot of her contact with any social support network she might have found by making her live separately from her classmates, and by demanding that Reynard be turned over to him.

Eh...aside from these being pretty obvious Court expectations, Annie was horribly embarrassed and uncomfortable around her classmates at this point.  I'm not sure round-the-clock contact would have been good for her. Her close friends were still free to visit her, and did.

Of course, Tony had no idea what Renard meant to her, but "Separate them from any murderously-obsessed demonic body thieves" is not a hard call when intervening with a troubled teen.

So he's taking over that role, right? Nope, he has her living separately from him, too, in what looks like a warehouse basement.

Living together would have been impossible at first; they could barely look at each other without both having nervous breakdowns.  As for moving Annie into the White Room in particular, three points:

1. It got her off the Court's surveillance grid. There is no privacy in the Court, except in buildings that Tony personally sweeps for bugs. I would assume this includes the White Room and (by now) Kat's laboratory.
2. Annie seemed to be fine with the room itself. Kat hated it, but I don't recall Annie ever showing dislike for it, or wanting to move out before Loup's attack forced her out.
3. It was clearly good for her. Aside from letting her concentrate on her studies, it gave her the space and privacy to confront and reconcile with her fire-self. She meditated in there, improved her psychic abilities, and walked away stronger and more emotionally balanced.

Annie has enough of Tony in her to share his need for intermittent isolation. She likes to meet that need by wandering--usually somewhere dark and dangerous--but having what was basically her own studio was a healthy alternative.

[ysenfrown]

Apr 10, 2021 22:25:59 GMT silicondream said:

So he's taking over that role, right? Nope, he has her living separately from him, too, in what looks like a warehouse basement.

Living together would have been impossible at first; they could barely look at each other without both having nervous breakdowns.  As for moving Annie into the White Room in particular, three points:

1. It got her off the Court's surveillance grid. There is no privacy in the Court, except in buildings that Tony personally sweeps for bugs. I would assume this includes the White Room and (by now) Kat's laboratory.
2. Annie seemed to be fine with the room itself. Kat hated it, but I don't recall Annie ever showing dislike for it, or wanting to move out before Loup's attack forced her out.
3. It was clearly good for her. Aside from letting her concentrate on her studies, it gave her the space and privacy to confront and reconcile with her fire-self. She meditated in there, improved her psychic abilities, and walked away stronger and more emotionally balanced.

Annie has enough of Tony in her to share his need for intermittent isolation. She likes to meet that need by wandering--usually somewhere dark and dangerous--but having what was basically her own studio was a healthy alternative.

I agree with 90% of what you say! I'm not like the biggest Tony fan out there (though Get Lost is probably one of my favorite chapters, ironically), but I think that Tom's done a good job of making me at least understand what he's done. I do think that the white room = good for Annie is something I disagree with, just because all of the strength/emotional balance that Annie undergoes largely happens outside of the White Room (see: Ysengrin destroying her blinker stone, the Annies confronting each other, etc). I think the White Room is one of Tony's failings, it's just that Annie made the most out of it/becomes stronger of her own volition & with the support of her friends, none of which had anything to do with Tony. 

That being said, I think that the fact that we're pretty polarized about Tony is a good thing! He's not a good guy, or a bad guy—he's very much complicit in whatever Omega device the Court created and has been a pretty crap father to Annie, but also a decent/good one at times. Let's see if the Mind Cage reveals more about whether it's just a Tony thing or if it's a ~supernatural sort of thing. 

[Gemminie]

Like ysenfrown I'm not a Tony fan, although I will admit that I find him a fascinating character in this story. Never would I suggest that he's a model of proper parenting (except maybe for diligent home schooling. Maybe.) I agree with silicondream on almost everything. But I wanted to point out a few things.

Apr 10, 2021 22:25:59 GMT silicondream said:

It wasn't a phone call for Tony, nor did he ask for Annie. He was wandering around in the Caves of Delirium or wherever this is, and the Mysterious Entities sent his message to the first person he thought of. He had no idea it arrived by phone, and no way to reply when she picked up.

He did, however, create an encrypted message, using the OTP that he shared with Don. That took very deliberate thinking. He had the OTP with him, and he and Don must have been on the same page, or Don would never have been able to decrypt it. And he started the message with Antimony's name. But then he made the message about something completely other. He could have said something to Antimony, even "I'm OK and thinking about you," but instead it's "Antimony, tell Don I need the following equipment sent to me via Microsat 5," etc. After over two years of total silence, completely ignoring his daughter's existence, all he has to say is what he needs.

That sounds pretty damning, BUT. Don understands Tony better than anyone else still living, and he notices that Tony thought of Annie when sending the message. He didn't have to send it in a way that reached Annie, after all. He could have sent it to Don and not involved Annie at all. Don knows that to Tony, that means something. Whatever emotional disability he has makes expressing his feelings into an effort like clawing through concrete using only one's fingernails, to anybody with whom he's "switched off" around. You can see him trying to drill through his wall here. He gives extra information while gripping that armrest for dear life.

Most of that was probably mandated by the Court, though. The headmaster's faction, at least, follows boarding/military school tradition: emphasize that one person's misbehavior can make the whole machine break down. If time is wasted and staff are inconvenienced by your punishment, that just makes you doubly guilty.

I don't know much about military or boarding school tradition, never having gone to either, so I'll just take your word for it there. Do we know that Llanwellyn has a faction? Not that he's unable to be a faction all by himself, being headmaster and all. He's quite infuriated by Annie's insubordination. Annie was completely blindsided by Tony's sudden appearance as the teacher of the first class of Year 10, and I could accept this as evidence that the Court wanted it to happen that way, because they certainly knew about it and could have informed her, James, Anja, or Don, but chose not to. However, I see no evidence that the Court ordered any of the details of Tony's treatment of Annie on that fateful first day of biology class. That, as far as I can see, was all Tony. And, I might add, quite out of character for him. Is this what happens when he loses his iron control of his emotions? He lashes out harshly and damagingly? Is that why he's so emotionally locked down, because otherwise he has no control at all? Is it black/white?

I think it helps to remember that Annie was already the Court's second most notorious teenage delinquent at this point. (By now, she probably edges out Zimmy for #1.) She'd cheated, trespassed in forbidden zones, stolen and vandalized official equipment, refused to surrender Reynard, threatened Court/Wood relations on multiple occasions, helped Kat set off a robot liberation movement, and kiiiiinda almost set Eggers on fire. Of course much of that behavior was justified from the reader's point of view, but to Court authorities she was chaos incarnate.

Annie was in a very dangerous position. Friendly adults had warned her to change her ways, to no avail. The headmaster had already tried to publicly shame her once, and that rebounded on him badly, with Annie defecting to the Wood and gaining open support from other students and staff. If he was going to save her from exile, Tony had to prove very quickly and dramatically that he could curb both Annie's behavior and her disruptive influence.

I'm not sure the Court knew about the robot liberation movement (I'm still not sure it knows now). And don't forget about how she freely skipped classes and detentions. The Court tried to discipline her and failed. I'm frankly amazed the Court didn't expel her years ago. I think chapter 41 was probably the Court's giving her one last chance, and if it hadn't been for the fact that Coyote made her Forest medium and an honorary Forest resident, any further infraction would've gotten her expelled. But after that they were afraid of angering Coyote, and chapter 54 shows the sort of thing that they were afraid would have happened if they had. Instead, they were going to wait until she graduated and then kick her out. (I'm not sure that would've been that bad, really, but it would've been a big change in the story ... eventually.)

But all we know that the Court mandated was that Annie retake Year 9. That logically implies that she had to move out of the Year 10 dorms, as she was no longer a Year 10 student, and it makes sense that the Year 9 dorms were full, so she had to have other lodgings. But we have no evidence that Tony had any input into those lodgings (or that he didn't).

Eh...aside from these being pretty obvious Court expectations, Annie was horribly embarrassed and uncomfortable around her classmates at this point. I'm not sure round-the-clock contact would have been good for her. Her close friends were still free to visit her, and did.

They did at least once, anyway. There's no point in showing it happening over and over, though, from a webcomic point of view.

Of course, Tony had no idea what Renard meant to her, but "Separate them from any murderously-obsessed demonic body thieves" is not a hard call when intervening with a troubled teen.

His treatment of Renard makes perfect sense to me. What was Tony's experience with Renard? He possessed Daniel Schiff to get to Surma, knowing that meant killing Schiff (Word of Tom says that we'll find out more about him eventually, so I'm thinking he was a relative of someone important in the Court), and then he killed Eglamore's Orjak companion, and the existence of this murderous supernatural stalker was pivotal in Tony and Surma's decision to leave the Court, to protect her (and their child; I'm not clear on whether Surma was pregnant by that time). When he came back and found that Renard was allegedly in Annie's possession, the first thing he probably thought was that Renard had been doing the absolute worst he could think of; after all, Renard was capable of murder. But ... then Tony objectively examined the evidence about Renard's behavior around Annie, and he changed his mind about him. His feelings told him one thing, but the evidence told another story.

Living together would have been impossible at first; they could barely look at each other without both having nervous breakdowns.  As for moving Annie into the White Room in particular, three points:

1. It got her off the Court's surveillance grid. There is no privacy in the Court, except in buildings that Tony personally sweeps for bugs. I would assume this includes the White Room and (by now) Kat's laboratory.
2. Annie seemed to be fine with the room itself. Kat hated it, but I don't recall Annie ever showing dislike for it, or wanting to move out before Loup's attack forced her out.
3. It was clearly good for her. Aside from letting her concentrate on her studies, it gave her the space and privacy to confront and reconcile with her fire-self. She meditated in there, improved her psychic abilities, and walked away stronger and more emotionally balanced.

Annie has enough of Tony in her to share his need for intermittent isolation. She likes to meet that need by wandering--usually somewhere dark and dangerous--but having what was basically her own studio was a healthy alternative.

I'm not seeing any evidence that Tony swept the White Room of Implied Insignificance for bugs, nor that he chose that room for her, although it would seem that at least he didn't veto it. But you're right – I also see no evidence that Annie ever showed a dislike for having a huge room all to herself, and there's even some evidence that she benefited from it.

So, Tony's parenting score is pretty deep in the negative without attributing things to him that he had no control over. Of course, some of those things wouldn't have happened if he hadn't made the choices he did, but blaming him for those things is like blaming the person who didn't lock the doors when some burglar robs their house (negligent, but the burglar is still the criminal). Let's blame Tony for the things he actually did. Like:

• Telling Annie absolutely nothing about Gunnerkrigg Court, the reason why her mother was dying, how he and Surma met, or basically any helpful background information whatsoever (though I might add that Surma is equally to blame for keeping Annie in the dark, as she could have told her about any of these things and didn't)
• Yes, completely abandoning Annie for over two full years, right after her mother's death (and, I might add, having to take her soul into the Ether or something, with no help from any spirit guides, making it extra traumatic), with no contact whatsoever and no way of even contacting him in an emergency
• Consequently providing Annie with no familial support or structure as she entered school at an institution that she knew absolutely nothing about, but that he grew up in and knew very well
• Allowing himself to lose control and discipline her in an extraordinarily humiliating way in front of an entire classroom
• Not looking at the evidence about her contact with Renard or the Forest sooner than he did
• Not telling Annie (to this day, it seems) about his reasons for abandoning her and nearly inadvertently killing her, so her only knowledge of that is what she gleaned from Don getting him drunk and letting Annie eavesdrop supernaturally

Jeez. Once again I've written a wall of text. Sorry about that. You should see some of the posts I've deleted unsent.

[mturtle7]

Ah, Tony. Tony, Tony, Tony. Some people hate him, others...well, at least have mixed feelings towards him that include some vaguely positive emotions besides hate. I'm honestly not sure if anyone actually LIKES him, per se. I, myself, hate him with a firey passion that burns hotter than the Sun's plasmic core, and have ever since the day page 2118 came out. But I can't help but respect people who are able to see him as a somewhat redeemable character! That includes Annie as well as people in the forum, which is why I don't like Eglamore presuming to know what's best for her like he's doing in this page. I just thought, in light of all this recent debate, I should clarify that my stance on Annie's home life isn't based on any sort of favorable inclinations towards Tony as a father or a person.

Seriously, though: screw that guy, he sucks.

[wies]

Apr 11, 2021 5:19:41 GMT mturtle7 said:

Ah, Tony. Tony, Tony, Tony. Some people hate him, others...well, at least have mixed feelings towards him that include some vaguely positive emotions besides hate. I'm honestly not sure if anyone actually LIKES him, per se. I, myself, hate him with a firey passion that burns hotter than the Sun's plasmic core, and have ever since the day page 2118 came out. But I can't help but respect people who are able to see him as a somewhat redeemable character! That includes Annie as well as people in the forum, which is why I don't like Eglamore presuming to know what's best for her like he's doing in this page. I just thought, in light of all this recent debate, I should clarify that my stance on Annie's home life isn't based on any sort of favorable inclinations towards Tony as a father or a person.

Seriously, though: screw that guy, he sucks.

What about page 2118 specifically made you hate him?

[flowsthead]

Apr 11, 2021 5:19:41 GMT mturtle7 said:

Ah, Tony. Tony, Tony, Tony. Some people hate him, others...well, at least have mixed feelings towards him that include some vaguely positive emotions besides hate. I'm honestly not sure if anyone actually LIKES him, per se. I, myself, hate him with a firey passion that burns hotter than the Sun's plasmic core, and have ever since the day page 2118 came out. But I can't help but respect people who are able to see him as a somewhat redeemable character! That includes Annie as well as people in the forum, which is why I don't like Eglamore presuming to know what's best for her like he's doing in this page. I just thought, in light of all this recent debate, I should clarify that my stance on Annie's home life isn't based on any sort of favorable inclinations towards Tony as a father or a person.

Seriously, though: screw that guy, he sucks.

I think this is a good point. Regardless of how we may disagree on Anthony, I feel like it should be pretty obvious that Eglamore is not a trusted source on this.

[novia]

Apr 10, 2021 14:35:45 GMT Gemminie said:

Apr 10, 2021 13:57:53 GMT novia said:

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2152

I'm speculating that Tony's social issues are a direct result of some implementation of this.

You aren't the only one who's speculated this! If this is the case, then the obvious question is what rule of the Arbiters he broke (I'm assuming that Saslamel isn't the only Arbiter) that would have resulted in this, or, if it wasn't the Arbiters, what other shadowy ethereal agency's rules he broke. He seems to have had these issues since he was a pre-teen or early teen, at the latest – chapter 22 is the farthest back into his life we've seen, and he was already like that then. So he was a rule-breaker early on. Is it possible that the beings who later tricked him into cutting off his hand and unwittingly nearly killing his daughter were acting out of revenge for whatever he did back then? Although you'd think they would have said something about it once their trick was done. But perhaps they did, and Tony just didn't happen to mention that in the story he told Don. So that's where I've gone along that particular speculation route.

I think since Tony has no idea about what happened, it could be that it was a punishment for someone else's actions. Like in Rapunzel when Rapunzel's parents steal from a sorceress for example. But then again, I guess we've already seen memory manipulation with Ys, so it's not impossible that Tony himself did something as a child which led to the current predicament.

[mitten]

Apr 10, 2021 14:35:45 GMT Gemminie said:

Apr 10, 2021 13:57:53 GMT novia said:

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2152

I'm speculating that Tony's social issues are a direct result of some implementation of this.

You aren't the only one who's speculated this! If this is the case, then the obvious question is what rule of the Arbiters he broke (I'm assuming that Saslamel isn't the only Arbiter) that would have resulted in this, or, if it wasn't the Arbiters, what other shadowy ethereal agency's rules he broke. He seems to have had these issues since he was a pre-teen or early teen, at the latest – chapter 22 is the farthest back into his life we've seen, and he was already like that then. So he was a rule-breaker early on. Is it possible that the beings who later tricked him into cutting off his hand and unwittingly nearly killing his daughter were acting out of revenge for whatever he did back then? Although you'd think they would have said something about it once their trick was done. But perhaps they did, and Tony just didn't happen to mention that in the story he told Don. So that's where I've gone along that particular speculation route.

If this is the case though, he seems unaware of it. As is shown here where he seems to have no idea why he is as he is. If he ever could remember being different, I'd have thought he'd mention it to Surma here. 

[todd]

Apr 11, 2021 4:32:58 GMT Gemminie said:

I'm frankly amazed the Court didn't expel her years ago.

I suspect that Reynardine was part of the reason; if the Court sent Annie away, then most likely: a) she'd take Reynardine with her (in which case they wouldn't be able to keep tabs on him) or b) if they made her relinquish her control over him, he'd be free to start body-hopping again and kill more people.

They might have also thought that, for all the trouble Annie was to them, it might be safer to keep her at Court where they could monitor her. (I still suspect that they were lying to Tony about casting her out once she graduated, in order to manipulate him.)

[speedwell]

Apr 9, 2021 21:51:41 GMT Gemminie said:

"Interfering with her life" – in what way is Tony interfering with Annie's life at present? Apparently he gives her homework. The Court is giving all the other students homework too, so how is that particularly interfering? She's living with him in the same house – which she wanted to do. (To play devil's advocate here, it was a way for her to get out of the Horrible Giant White Room of Relative Insignificance.) Is giving her homework not providing her with structure? He doesn't seem to prevent her from going around and doing things, like accidentally walking into Zimmingham while on the way to something else, or going somewhere or other with Kat. So what does James actually mean? That he should go back out on an expedition or something and abandon Annie again? That they should get together and forcibly remove Annie from his home in some sort of intervention/kidnapping thing?

We don't know everything James knows. There may indeed be ways Tony is manipulating things in ways we can't see. We know already that Tony is not ineffectual and powerless within the Court. He has always been deep into Court intrigue, Court intelligence, Court science. The more I think about it, the more I think Tony is a bit like the mad scientist archetype; someone whose powers of analysis and invention allow him to shape reality into a form that puts up a wall between himself and what is truly human, important, and good.

James may simply have wallowed in not-particularly-healthy fantasies about Tony being a bad partner, mistreating or neglecting Surma, while he hoped that maybe Surma would leave Tony and get back together with him. He may even have fantasized about being the one who saved Surma from the suffering he imagined her going through. Some of that self-storytelling might have been still in his mind when he was imagining Tony being a bad father. People have a way of creating almost-memories with their emotions, and the more he convinced himself that Tony was a one-sided villain, the harder it would become to think of him as anything but. 

tl;dr I think James has just basically closed himself to thinking anything good could come out of Tony and is engaging in a kind of paranoid fantasy; this not exactly helped by the fact that Tony actually does seem to have his fingers in assorted mysterious pies.

[Gemminie]

Apr 11, 2021 13:29:17 GMT speedwell said:

James may simply have wallowed in not-particularly-healthy fantasies about Tony being a bad partner, mistreating or neglecting Surma, while he hoped that maybe Surma would leave Tony and get back together with him.

Yes, he may well have done that, especially considering that Tony and Surma left the Court and didn't contact anyone at all thereafter (although Tony must have stayed in contact with the Court's research branch because of his Omega Device work, but James wouldn't necessarily have been told about that). We've been told that it was Surma's wish, because she didn't want her friends to watch her health deteriorate, but at the time James certainly didn't know that. For 12 years he heard nothing, and then Annie showed up, signifying that Surma was dead, and Tony disappeared. So there was no real information to dispel those fantasies James must have had.

People have a way of creating almost-memories with their emotions, and the more he convinced himself that Tony was a one-sided villain, the harder it would become to think of him as anything but.

Yes, memories are all reconstructed each time you remember them, and thinking about something over and over (especially for 12 years, with no contrary information) can definitely cause that thing to seem like a memory.

tl;dr I think James has just basically closed himself to thinking anything good could come out of Tony and is engaging in a kind of paranoid fantasy; this not exactly helped by the fact that Tony actually does seem to have his fingers in assorted mysterious pies.

Even now we can't be sure exactly how much power/influence Tony has with the Court; it seems he's kept them from knowing about Kat's android work, but has he really? Maybe he has, or maybe not. And his work on the Omega Device: is the project divided up into teams so that each one doesn't know what the rest are doing? Apparently they're not supposed to talk about it with each other (at least, outside of secured spaces), but how much influence does he have over the project as a whole? We know so little. James seems to think Tony's deeply involved, but what does that even mean, and how much of what he thinks he knows is correct?

[warrl]

Apr 11, 2021 5:19:41 GMT mturtle7 said:

which is why I don't like Eglamore presuming to know what's best for her like he's doing in this page.

The offense is not in thinking he knows what's best for her; it's in trying to overrule her judgment and choices on what's best for her in areas where he has no authority over her (and, for that matter, Tony's judgment and choices in areas of Tony's legitimate authority, at least until Tony is formally accused of being an unfit parent).

[Runningflame]

One thing I find interesting about this debate is the disagreement about how much to take Annie's wishes into account. Some say, "Yes, he's been a lousy father, but Annie wants to be with him, so she should be." Others say, "It doesn't matter that she thinks she wants that, it's objectively bad for her and he needs to be out of her life." (I'm paraphrasing and not thinking of anyone in particular here, so my formulations may not match exactly how you would put it.) Eglamore, clearly, falls into the second camp. I'm not 100% sold on either argument: on the one hand, I don't think severing Annie's connection with Tony against her will would be good for her (I am hopeful that we've seen and will continue to see some progress, even if it's painfully slow); on the other hand, people sometimes want things that are not good for them, and it can become necessary to rip off that band-aid. The chapter 52 retrospective actually touches on both sides: Tom points out that the situation isn't great and Annie's not dealing with it quite as well as she says she is, but he also points out how a lot of other characters assume that Annie needs to be rescued without giving Annie any say in the matter.

[maxptc]

Apr 11, 2021 5:19:41 GMT mturtle7 said:

Ah, Tony. Tony, Tony, Tony. Some people hate him, others...well, at least have mixed feelings towards him that include some vaguely positive emotions besides hate. I'm honestly not sure if anyone actually LIKES him, per se. I, myself, hate him with a firey passion that burns hotter than the Sun's plasmic core, and have ever since the day page 2118 came out. But I can't help but respect people who are able to see him as a somewhat redeemable character! That includes Annie as well as people in the forum, which is why I don't like Eglamore presuming to know what's best for her like he's doing in this page. I just thought, in light of all this recent debate, I should clarify that my stance on Annie's home life isn't based on any sort of favorable inclinations towards Tony as a father or a person.

Seriously, though: screw that guy, he sucks.

I'm not really a fan of Tony, I just think he is another of the flawed human characters that gets a lot flack for everything they do and ever did, in a world where a lot of other flawed non human characters get away with a lot without it being a constant issue. Like Rey, for as cool as he is and as bad as he feels about it, he did try to straight up murder Annie. And then he followed it up by being a jerk about his situation for ages. Ys also had a few....moments, and caused by Coyote or not that's pretty messed up, and that's not even bring up the mad god himself, who caused this whole situation because he wanted to get better at playing dead.

Meanwhile, Tony and Paz are like evil agents of Dr Doom or something because they suck at socializing. I mean that's an oversimplification obviously, it just seems like they get an odd amount attention and hate compared to where I would scale them in a good to shades of grey to bad person chart.

[flowsthead]

Apr 11, 2021 19:25:19 GMT maxptc said:

I'm not really a fan of Tony, I just think he is another of the flawed human characters that gets a lot flack for everything they do and ever did, in a world where a lot of other flawed non human characters get away with a lot without it being a constant issue. Like Rey, for as cool as he is and as bad as he feels about it, he did try to straight up murder Annie. And then he followed it up by being a jerk about his situation for ages. Ys also had a few....moments, and caused by Coyote or not that's pretty messed up, and that's not even bring up the mad god himself, who caused this whole situation because he wanted to get better at playing dead.

Meanwhile, Tony and Paz are like evil agents of Dr Doom or something because they suck at socializing. I mean that's an oversimplification obviously, it just seems like they get an odd amount attention and hate compared to where I would scale them in a good to shades of grey to bad person chart.

This is a good point, though I tend to think of the actions of the characters less in terms of their "objective" morality and more in terms of their intentionality. Murder is not a big deal to the creatures of the forest as they live by a survival of the fittest dynamic, almost. Ysengrin and Renard almost killing Annie is not that strange from their perspective, even if both of them now feel bad about it. It's what makes the murder of Jeanne by Diego and the archer so heinous, that they know the terribleness of their actions.

With Tony and Paz, it's obvious that their transgressions are not on the murder level, but we can talk about how it reflects on them in a different way. Tony is an authority figure in Annie's life, and most modern human societies take the parental role as one of heightened responsibility. That's what makes Tony's situation so bad for many readers. Paz works on the principle jealousy/possessiveness, which is generally considered an "ugly" or ""distasteful" characteristic. Objectively, Paz's actions are going to cause the least emotional damage of any of the character, but they are also the most likely ones that a majority of the readers will have dealt with, and they may make many of us uncomfortable.

To use an analogy (although one that is probably self defeating), if anyone has read Tower of God, the most hated character in the manga is one that in many ways has done the least damage, but is the one that has the most hateful personality. A less precise analogy would be someone like Dolores Umbridge.

I'm not saying that the Tony and Paz hate is deserved or undeserved, just that it makes perfect sense to me.

[maxptc]

Apr 11, 2021 21:37:03 GMT flowsthead said:

Apr 11, 2021 19:25:19 GMT maxptc said:

I'm not really a fan of Tony, I just think he is another of the flawed human characters that gets a lot flack for everything they do and ever did, in a world where a lot of other flawed non human characters get away with a lot without it being a constant issue. Like Rey, for as cool as he is and as bad as he feels about it, he did try to straight up murder Annie. And then he followed it up by being a jerk about his situation for ages. Ys also had a few....moments, and caused by Coyote or not that's pretty messed up, and that's not even bring up the mad god himself, who caused this whole situation because he wanted to get better at playing dead.

Meanwhile, Tony and Paz are like evil agents of Dr Doom or something because they suck at socializing. I mean that's an oversimplification obviously, it just seems like they get an odd amount attention and hate compared to where I would scale them in a good to shades of grey to bad person chart.

This is a good point, though I tend to think of the actions of the characters less in terms of their "objective" morality and more in terms of their intentionality. Murder is not a big deal to the creatures of the forest as they live by a survival of the fittest dynamic, almost. Ysengrin and Renard almost killing Annie is not that strange from their perspective, even if both of them now feel bad about it. It's what makes the murder of Jeanne by Diego and the archer so heinous, that they know the terribleness of their actions.

With Tony and Paz, it's obvious that their transgressions are not on the murder level, but we can talk about how it reflects on them in a different way. Tony is an authority figure in Annie's life, and most modern human societies take the parental role as one of heightened responsibility. That's what makes Tony's situation so bad for many readers. Paz works on the principle jealousy/possessiveness, which is generally considered an "ugly" or ""distasteful" characteristic. Objectively, Paz's actions are going to cause the least emotional damage of any of the character, but they are also the most likely ones that a majority of the readers will have dealt with, and they may make many of us uncomfortable.

To use an analogy (although one that is probably self defeating), if anyone has read Tower of God, the most hated character in the manga is one that in many ways has done the least damage, but is the one that has the most hateful personality. A less precise analogy would be someone like Dolores Umbridge.

I'm not saying that the Tony and Paz hate is deserved or undeserved, just that it makes perfect sense to me.

I get what your saying but if it's intention that matters Tony isn't even bad. From Tony's perspective, he was working to keep his family alive, then when Sumra died he was working to bring his family back together while keeping Annie safe, then when he got back he was working to keep Annie on the right track.

Rey intended to kill Annie because he wanted to escape, and killing might not be a big thing to some Forrest creatures, but it's implied by Coyote that this isn't the case with Rey.
Intention only matters so much, how we judge characters is largely, like you said, kinda just who seems the most "relatable" bad.

[pyradonis]

Apr 11, 2021 21:37:03 GMT flowsthead said:

Murder is not a big deal to the creatures of the forest as they live by a survival of the fittest dynamic, almost. Ysengrin and Renard almost killing Annie is not that strange from their perspective, even if both of them now feel bad about it. It's what makes the murder of Jeanne by Diego and the archer so heinous, that they know the terribleness of their actions.

I am not sure I agree with the applicability of your assessment. Renard clearly feels uncomfortable with the possibility of Daniel dying, and what little we see of their interaction looks like they were friends or at least on friendly terms. IMHO not comparable to one animal killing another (humans included) for food or to defend itself. Renard knew what he was doing was wrong.