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Post by Viridian on Mar 29, 2021 7:00:37 GMT
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Post by madjack on Mar 29, 2021 7:05:07 GMT
Just needs the page number [2447] edited into the subject field at the start.
Cookies to those who suggested Paz is playing social games against Annie. Or is it against Annie? Hmm.
Winsbury still protective of his friends too.
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Post by wies on Mar 29, 2021 7:05:24 GMT
You only forgot to include the page number in your title, otherwise you did it right. No worries, you can edit the title too.
Also, it seems it is actually Paz who is blabbing it to everyone.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 29, 2021 7:10:30 GMT
Moon viewing is a late-September early-Octoberish Japanese harvest festival, by the way.
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 7:10:51 GMT
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 7:14:47 GMT
On another note, it's fairly predictable what Paz is doing, imo. It's been fairly obvious she does not like Annie- likely because she feels Annie puts Kat in danger... And because of how close Kat and Annie are. Furthermore, we even see Paz outright downplay or lie about her actions against Annie to Kat, even after Annie informs Kat what has happened.
Interestingly enough, based on that seaside conversation, it seems Annie downplayed how Paz approached her... And Paz didn't own up, either. Kat likely doesn't know about the gossip being spread, either.
The bottom line is that Kat cares so much for Annie, that she creates a literal time loop to save *Annie*... And I'm willing to bet big money she would *not* do similar for Paz.
And Paz probably knows this, too.
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Post by antiyonder on Mar 29, 2021 7:19:25 GMT
I know how the classmates feel. Kind of a waste for example that Marvel felt like they had to kill off Ben Reilly to end the Clone Saga.
Anyway, bet Paz is strongly having to avoid saying "I made no attempt to bump them off or anything like that!":-D.
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Post by speedwell on Mar 29, 2021 7:53:47 GMT
Well, playing mah-jongg together is not that remarkable. You just know their private dialogue is something along the lines of, "Well, if we completely avoid each other, people will wonder why, so let's not arouse suspicion in that way" and "You're right as always, Janet, too little intimacy is as bad as too much - it's keeping up appearances really"  |
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Post by speedwell on Mar 29, 2021 7:58:08 GMT
It occurs to me that the "cage" being referred to in the chapter title is the one called the "scold's bridle", a literal iron cage that was placed on the heads of gossips in 16th and 17th century England as punishment for gossipping. Or talking too much. Or talking out of turn. Or speaking "immodestly".
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CGAdam
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Post by CGAdam on Mar 29, 2021 7:59:52 GMT
Well, playing mah-jongg together is not that remarkable. You just know their private dialogue is something along the lines of, "Well, if we completely avoid each other, people will wonder why, so let's not arouse suspicion in that way" and "You're right as always, Janet, too little intimacy is as bad as too much - it's keeping up appearances really" Actually, it's Hanafuda! A Japanese card game I've only ever seen in a movie called Summer Wars. Kinda like Go Fish. Moon viewing is a late-September early-Octoberish Japanese harvest festival, by the way. Moon Viewing is also a potentially winning hand in the card game they're playing. |
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Post by justhalf on Mar 29, 2021 8:22:59 GMT
Welcome to the forum!
As for the title, it's mostly fine! You just need to move the comic number to the front. (ans some people prefer to put the text in quotes if it's a quotation, and no if it's Tom's comments or some narration, but up to you) Something like this:
[2447] "Umm yes, it's what Kat told me"
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Post by machiavelli33 on Mar 29, 2021 10:04:43 GMT
Fun fact:
Nintendo began in the 1880s as a company that made Hanafuda cards.
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Post by maemae on Mar 29, 2021 10:52:20 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it.
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Post by worldsong on Mar 29, 2021 11:39:36 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. She started out decent but it's clear by this point that she just can't handle how close Annie and Kat are and how Annie affects Kat's life. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Mar 29, 2021 11:41:19 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. I get the feeling that we’re not supposed to hate her and there’s plenty of reasons to like her, but she personally rubs me wrong. Tom had talked in his retrospective about her like her behavior is pretty normal, but it’s made me pretty uncomfortable in the past. (I relate hardcore to Annie on the emotions, friendship, and privacy front, though). I’m not actually bothered by Paz in these few pages—it seems like a classic case of private person shares something with the one person they trust, and the other person tells someone else so they don’t have to bear the load alone, but by then, the idea that “this is private and supposed to stay between us” is not passed on. Since person number three isn’t directly connected to the private person or particularly close, they don’t feel like they have to keep things silent, because if it was private, person two wouldn’t have said anything, right? It may be a little bit on Kat as well for not saying “hey, this is just between you and me.” But I also don’t blame Kat, from her perspective she probably assumes that it’s clear that this is between them even though she hasn’t communicated it. Anyways as a private person I’ve taken to telling people explicitly which audiences (if any) are appropriate for them to share my personal information with. Otherwise it’s a game of assumptions, and I’m not too good playing the “guess the unspoken social rule” game. What I’m most fascinated by is strike number two against Mr. Carver! I wonder where this is going. It’s interesting to see people beyond the core duo discussing his behavior and I wonder if we’re closer to a revelation. |
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haspen
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Post by haspen on Mar 29, 2021 11:43:03 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. She started out decent but it's clear by this point that she just can't handle how close Annie and Kat are and how Annie affects Kat's life. *gasp!* Jealousy? Amongst teenaged girls!? Can't be!! |
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Post by worldsong on Mar 29, 2021 11:49:40 GMT
She started out decent but it's clear by this point that she just can't handle how close Annie and Kat are and how Annie affects Kat's life. *gasp!* Jealousy? Amongst teenaged girls!? Can't be!!Oh, it's definitely not abnormal or anything, but that doesn't make her behaviour much better.
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Post by blahzor on Mar 29, 2021 11:59:05 GMT
Better than bottling it up |
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 12:28:17 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. Paz, in my opinion, started off as a very fun character, but recently in the last few arcs all we have seen are her bad sides. All the GC characters have flaws, certainly, but Paz really does seem to show hers most often, and they are the type of flaws that would be red flags in real life. That's just my opinion though! (I'm also on the Paz Dislike Bus haha!) |
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 12:58:31 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. Paz, in my opinion, started off as a very fun character, but recently in the last few arcs all we have seen are her bad sides. All the GC characters have flaws, certainly, but Paz really does seem to show hers most often, and they are the type of flaws that would be red flags in real life. That's just my opinion though! (I'm also on the Paz Dislike Bus haha!) To add onto this; Paz has flaws that show as problematic because she doesn't have; 1. Any self awareness for having them 2. Any regret for actions that don't impact her negatively in some way. For case in point, as far as we know, she never apologized to Annie, and even lied by omission to Kat in the seaside chat chapter. She shows no real regard for how other's feel, and this extends to Kat. You could argue she did all what she did for Kat but if that were truly the case, her actions afterwards would be more remorseful, as it was clear while Kat understood the reasons why, purposefully driving your partner's friends away isn't healthy for your partner. No, Paz's actions are for her own benefit, ultimately. Frankly put, the biggest red flag is the manipulative and self-centered behavior, and we see it yet again alluded to in this chapter. Is that typical teenager-dom? Yes. But even that is hard to argue, because we've seen character change and development from most everyone, mostly for the better. Zimmy is a great example of this, and we even see Janet and Winsbury in this very page, seemingly getting along-ish in public quarters. It's a stark difference from earlier chapters, even if it seems like a small change. With Paz, all we've been provided narrative-wise are her bad choices that ride on the back of what she presents as good intentions. I think that is the crux of the problem there; The narrative only shows her flaws, and they are big enough ones that it paints a very unkind picture. Edit; This page (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2383) is a prime example of what I am trying to convey; "I hope you don't think I was trying to come between you two..." Yet, we the readers know that was exactly what Paz was trying to do in that chapter, verbatim. "Oh Kat! I am so embarrassed! I shouldn't have done it like that!" There is no apology there, any where on that page. In fact, it shows Paz just feels embarrassed for getting caught, and however Annie portrayed the encounter as. Not that the encounter happened, just that Paz could have been nicer about it. |
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Post by Per on Mar 29, 2021 13:09:06 GMT
Actually, it's Hanafuda! A Japanese card game I've only ever seen in a movie called Summer Wars. Kinda like Go Fish. Specifically they seem to be playing Koi-Koi, a neat game using Hanafuda cards, similar to Casino rather than Go Fish. Moon Viewing is also a potentially winning hand in the card game they're playing. Specifically "moon-viewing sake" is a two-card combination using one of the cards shown in Margo's hand (the sake cup), although it's not used in all variations. We can't see if she's actually on track to capture either card. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Mar 29, 2021 13:13:34 GMT
Paz, in my opinion, started off as a very fun character, but recently in the last few arcs all we have seen are her bad sides. All the GC characters have flaws, certainly, but Paz really does seem to show hers most often, and they are the type of flaws that would be red flags in real life. That's just my opinion though! (I'm also on the Paz Dislike Bus haha!) To add onto this; Paz has flaws that show as problematic because she doesn't have; 1. Any self awareness for having them 2. Any regret for actions that don't impact her negatively in some way. For case in point, as far as we know, she never apologized to Annie, and even lied by omission to Kat in the seaside chat chapter. She shows no real regard for how other's feel, and this extends to Kat. You could argue she did all what she did for Kat but if that were truly the case, her actions afterwards would be more remorseful, as it was clear while Kat understood the reasons why, purposefully driving your partner's friends away isn't healthy for your partner. No, Paz's actions are for her own benefit, ultimately. Frankly put, the biggest red flag is the manipulative and self-centered behavior, and we see it yet again alluded to in this chapter. Is that typical teenager-dom? Yes. But even that is hard to argue, because we've seen character change and development from most everyone, mostly for the better. Zimmy is a great example of this, and we even see Janet and Winsbury in this very page, seemingly getting along-ish in public quarters. It's a stark difference from earlier chapters, even if it seems like a small change. With Paz, all we've been provided narrative-wise are her bad choices that ride on the back of what she presents as good intentions. I think that is the crux of the problem there; The narrative only shows her flaws, and they are big enough ones that it paints a very unkind picture. Excellent point! It’s also worth noting that apart from the Traveller comic, we have no glimpses into Paz’ inner life apart from her words to Annie and Kat, which naturally decreases sympathy when, as you said, all we’ve seen recently is the negative side of her behavior. We only view her through the lens of the mains. Since her personality hasn’t been employed in such a way that significantly helps Annie or Kat, imho, we’re less likely to think of it in a complimentary. Kinda like how a lot of people felt about Red when she was bashing Annie, for understandable if flawed reasons. If there had been shown a situation where Paz’ loyalty to Kat protects everyone we care about (like protecting the whereabouts of her lab from insidious court people), or her willingness to share information saving their lives (sending trusted people like Jones or the Donlans in to rescue A and K from a deadly situation), the Paz picture would be more sympathetic overall. Add that to the fact that she’s not really a protagonist (we’re not following her goals, not are we really privy to them unless she tells Kat (or threatens Annie)) so we don’t truly see her motivation. There’s bound to be some frustration with her. |
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 13:28:54 GMT
Also, just throwing this theory out there, but that huge red flag we saw on page 2384 (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2384) which was, "I think with you there, things will be okay!" might very likely be massive foreshadowing on whatever mess this is about to be here in this chapter or be about Paz's behaviour and how it negatively affects Kat/Annie/The Narrative.
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Post by fia on Mar 29, 2021 13:38:54 GMT
I think in this instance Paz hasn't done wrong. Honestly, if you thought your friend's parent was treating your friend poorly, you should tell other people about it. I myself feel like an incredibly private person and I hate things in my personal life being shared without my consent, which others don't often realize, but if I were still a child and people were upset about my parents' behavior or my teachers' behavior or other ways I was being treated wrongly, I would hope people would talk about it. It's sweeping-under-the-rug stuff that means we don't find out about child molesters and sexual assaulters, to be quite frank. Now for Tony in this case it seems like nobody likes him because he seems so very inscrutable that everyone assumes the worst; and with him abandoning his daughter for 3 years, it's an even steeper uphill battle. Maybe that's contributed to his extreme introversion. Now in Paz's case I think she's just talking about her girlfriend and worries around her girlfriend with her friends, and that's imho a 100% healthy thing to do. How I wish I'd talked to my friends more during my first relationships, they could have helped call out red flags much sooner. (If you date someone who polices you about this, it's no bueno). I think the bad taste comes from the fact that her friends don't realize it's a confidence and in this case involves Annie, and that Paz knows now that it's down the chain it doesn't sound so good to be spreading it. Probably her worst mistake was telling Cvet though! Now definitely everybody knows! Makes sense Paz and Cvet are friends, Paz seems to get along with everyone except Annie really. (Think about it: robots, mice, puppies, giant underwater invertebrates, Renard, Cvet, her classmates and Kat, that's like the entire sentient world almost). EDIT to add: you know maybe at some point Paz found out about Annie coaching Mort to scare the bejeezus out of her back in Year One and that's why she's ambivalent about Annie. Yeah, I probably wouldn't forgive Annie, haha, I wouldn't have slept for weeks |
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Post by ctso74 on Mar 29, 2021 13:47:43 GMT
All fingers are currently pointing to Tony. Will Jones go get Eglamore's opinion?
Why you sweating Paz? Teenage Paz is being a little crappy. Her lack of social empathy could simple be from inexperience, which she'll grow out of. Then again, it could be serious flaw. It occurs to me that the "cage" being referred to in the chapter title is the one called the "scold's bridle", a literal iron cage that was placed on the heads of gossips in 16th and 17th century England as punishment for gossipping. Or talking too much. Or talking out of turn. Or speaking "immodestly". That would be hilarious. Dark, but hilarious. |
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 13:49:55 GMT
Makes sense Paz and Cvet are friends, Paz seems to get along with everyone except Annie really. (Think about it: robots, mice, puppies, giant underwater invertebrates, Renard, Cvet, her classmates and Kat, that's like the entire sentient world almost). I agree with you that it might very well be that it just was a slip, but I'm just going to point out that it seems odd that Paz can get along with everyone so easily... except for the person her SO cares about the most. To the point Paz brought other people to corner said person in what appeared to be an alley and order her to stay away from Kat, who is Paz's girlfriend. |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 29, 2021 13:56:33 GMT
Paz behaves very much like an average if slightly gossipy teenage girl, which is why it's tough to like her in the comic but very hard for me to think of her as a bad person, or even be mad at her. Her actions aren't evil or even morally wrong in any significant way, just shortsighted and selfish. Paz isn't even doing anything bad, she is just in her first significant relationship, which is always awkward, and a teenager which is a confusing time. Paz is allowed to vent to friends and feel jealous and act dumb to try and protect Kat/her relationship with Kat, these are all very much part of the relationship learning process. It's up Kat/Paz to set up boundaries and figure out the details, which we've seen a bit of but not a ton. Not that Paz is right for gossiping, but that's typically behavior for this age, and it not normally a significant problem for a romantic partner to share information with there friends, in fact trying to restrict that is sorta denying them agency (think that's the right term). Paz has no reason to realize how bad sharing these secrets could go, since even if she knows it could go badly, she has no way of knowing how badly. Wanting your girlfriend to like you more then her BFF and trying to control that is mean, but not evil. Imo, the relationship between Kat and Paz has some unhealthness, which is an honest view of a 1sr relationship. If the relationship is to become healthy, they need some more talk and boundaries.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 29, 2021 14:18:11 GMT
Paz is a teenager. If anyone thinks this is drama somehow different from literally any other teenager, it's been too long since you were a teenager.
Also, remember that this story is primarily about Annie and Kat. We only see Paz when her actions intersect with the story arcs of the two main characters, so we have a distorted view of her.
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Post by speedwell on Mar 29, 2021 15:11:19 GMT
Paz could greatly benefit from a friendly caring adult sitting her down and explaining why her behaviour is a bit on the assholish side, and listening as she blows up and vents all her frustration, and providing a shoulder to cry on, and looking at the situation with an eye to guiding her to a solution. I do this a lot, having many teenage and fledgling friends. All part of aging; you get drafted into "life tech support" a lot.
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Post by phantaskippy on Mar 29, 2021 15:56:57 GMT
Paz could greatly benefit from a friendly caring adult sitting her down and explaining why her behaviour is a bit on the assholish side, and listening as she blows up and vents all her frustration, and providing a shoulder to cry on, and looking at the situation with an eye to guiding her to a solution. I do this a lot, having many teenage and fledgling friends. All part of aging; you get drafted into "life tech support" a lot. I agree. The nervousness Paz is showing read to me like someone who took an action they thought was right in the moment and she is now realizing that this is going to go badly. The gossip is out of control, and her name is the one attached to it. It's likely to cause conflict between the three of them, and she's responsible for that. |
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