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Post by blahzor on Mar 29, 2021 16:09:17 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. Paz, in my opinion, started off as a very fun character, but recently in the last few arcs all we have seen are her bad sides. All the GC characters have flaws, certainly, but Paz really does seem to show hers most often, and they are the type of flaws that would be red flags in real life. That's just my opinion though! (I'm also on the Paz Dislike Bus haha!) bad side? she went from happy go lucky to having to deal with all the stress and problems of her girlfriend as she seems like the only one she was venting to. and said girlfriend ramping up her godlike powers and manipulating time and creating a new species. and still a teenager |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 29, 2021 16:14:40 GMT
Welcome to the forum! As for the title, it's mostly fine! You just need to move the comic number to the front. (ans some people prefer to put the text in quotes if it's a quotation, and no if it's Tom's comments or some narration, but up to you) Something like this: [2477] "Umm yes, it's what Kat told me" I just wanted to point out that it should be [2447], rather than [2477]. |
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Post by badchemistry on Mar 29, 2021 16:23:15 GMT
Paz, in my opinion, started off as a very fun character, but recently in the last few arcs all we have seen are her bad sides. All the GC characters have flaws, certainly, but Paz really does seem to show hers most often, and they are the type of flaws that would be red flags in real life. That's just my opinion though! (I'm also on the Paz Dislike Bus haha!) bad side? she went from happy go lucky to having to deal with all the stress and problems of her girlfriend as she seems like the only one she was venting to. and said girlfriend ramping up her godlike powers and manipulating time and creating a new species. and still a teenager I mean, sure- That's 100% valid! It would be downright horrid to go through that - But it also doesn't excuse the behaviour. Like another poster said, it really seems like Paz needs someone to sit her down and gently explain that maybbbeee doing all that wasn't the smartest move, these kinda things usually have consequences, and then listen to Paz. Paz started out really interesting as a character, but the narrative really isn't giving us anything but the fact she currently creates conflict, either intentionally or unintentionally. :/ |
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Post by bedinsis on Mar 29, 2021 16:28:01 GMT
Why is Paz flustered on this page? Furthermore, we even see Paz outright downplay or lie about her actions against Annie to Kat, even after Annie informs Kat what has happened. When has Paz lied? |
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Post by kunikunatu on Mar 29, 2021 16:29:17 GMT
If there had been shown a situation where Paz’ loyalty to Kat protects everyone we care about ... the Paz picture would be more sympathetic overall. You mean like when she did? Why is Paz flustered on this page? I am confused about this too. |
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Post by Corvo on Mar 29, 2021 16:34:39 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it Paz is just being kind of gossipy, Winsbury discretely called her out for it, and she got ashamed. Not a big deal.
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Post by blahzor on Mar 29, 2021 16:43:03 GMT
bad side? she went from happy go lucky to having to deal with all the stress and problems of her girlfriend as she seems like the only one she was venting to. and said girlfriend ramping up her godlike powers and manipulating time and creating a new species. and still a teenager I mean, sure- That's 100% valid! It would be downright horrid to go through that - But it also doesn't excuse the behaviour. Like another poster said, it really seems like Paz needs someone to sit her down and gently explain that maybbbeee doing all that wasn't the smartest move, these kinda things usually have consequences, and then listen to Paz. Paz started out really interesting as a character, but the narrative really isn't giving us anything but the fact she currently creates conflict, either intentionally or unintentionally. :/ in this entire world no adult does this to any of the kids. they all do things and learn after the fact as a premise of the comic. Jones doesn't really help in a normal way. Anja only sorta helps but this is all limited to what we're shown. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Mar 29, 2021 16:46:22 GMT
If there had been shown a situation where Paz’ loyalty to Kat protects everyone we care about ... the Paz picture would be more sympathetic overall. You mean like when she did? Why is Paz flustered on this page? I am confused about this too. Ooh, good catch—it’s been a while since I read that. I do think my overall point still stands, though—it’s been years since we’ve seen Paz in Awesomeland and that skews our perception. |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 29, 2021 16:54:53 GMT
So it seems we're still in flashback. Jones has left Parley and Cvet behind – Cvet has told Jones that she heard about Tony's different treatment of the two Annies from Paz, so Jones has gone to track down Paz. The students are in some sort of lounge area; some of them are playing a card game using what CGAdam has identified as hanafuda cards, probably Koi-Koi, as Per suggests. The cards are used as a visual transition. Jones has evidently asked a question, and from context it must have been something like, "What is your opinion of Antimony Carver's apparent recombination into a single individual?" After the general consensus being that it's very strange, Janet's comment that the two Annies acted like sisters leads to Margo's comment that they had distinct personalities and subsequent speculation that this may have been why Tony treated the two Annies differently. Winsbury turns to Paz, who is nearby, and identifies her as the person who told them about this difference in treatment. Paz is very nervous and says that Kat told her about that. What is Paz so nervous about? Has she been deliberately gossiping about Annie to hurt her in some way or to drive a wedge between Annie and Kat, upset about the fact that Annie's constant predicaments have been upsetting Kat and getting in the way of their relationship? (Except, keep in mind that the time-travel situation was resolved some time ago now, and Kat has been seemingly much more collected since then. From the way it feels as if time has been passing, she's had less cause to worry for a while now. And it's unclear how such gossip would drive a wedge between Annie and Kat.) Or is it simply the fact, as phantaskippy points out, that Paz simply gossiped to unburden herself at the time, and now she can't take it back but wishes she could (if for no other reason than that her name's attached to it)? Then, in what seems like a lead-in to the next page, Winsbury lays blame for any problems squarely at Tony's feet. What problems he means specifically are left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps he simply means the way Tony treated the two Annies differently. It seems as if Tony's being tried in the court (or Court) of public opinion, while Paz is being tried in the forum's court of public opinion today. |
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Post by svvyew on Mar 29, 2021 17:00:07 GMT
I'm new to the forum (but longtime reader) so someone may have already said this. maybe Tony treated Annie differently because she was from a different timestream so he didn't feel crushing guilt and anxiety over 'killing' Surma and hurting Annie trying to revive Surma because *he* (as in this timestream tony) didn't do it? Or it could literally just be the makup makes her look more like surma, like he told Dolan Sr. when he 1st returned. (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1559)
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 29, 2021 17:15:02 GMT
I'm new to the forum (but longtime reader) so someone may have already said this. maybe Tony treated Annie differently because she was from a different timestream so he didn't feel crushing guilt and anxiety over 'killing' Surma and hurting Annie trying to revive Surma because *he* (as in this timestream tony) didn't do it? Or it could literally just be the makup makes her look more like surma, like he told Dolan Sr. when he 1st returned. (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1559) Welcome to the forum! And interesting speculations! I haven't seen that first one put quite that way before, though there's been some doubt cast over whether the two Annies were from different timelines – but that has nothing to do with whether Tony thinks/feels that they are. And that second one is quite valid; I feel as if the makeup must play some role in his reaction to Court Annie – though when she tries interacting with him without the makeup in chapter 78, his reaction to her doesn't change, or only changes a slight amount. But I still think it plays a role at some level. Perhaps it's because of the (still unseen on camera) argument that happened when she insisted on wearing it, or because of the way their relationship evolved over time after that happened (also mostly unseen). |
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Post by Corvo on Mar 29, 2021 17:30:19 GMT
My headcanon is Margo keeps bringing to the group games where having a perfect aim can't be used as an advantage, just so she can win against Janet. Of course, they can only hope Janet won't accidentally kill someone when it's her turn to deal. She'd be a cool Gambit though.
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Post by maxptc on Mar 29, 2021 17:46:24 GMT
Then, in what seems like a lead-in to the next page, Winsbury lays blame for any problems squarely at Tony's feet. What problems he means specifically are left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps he simply means the way Tony treated the two Annies differently. It seems as if Tony's being tried in the court (or Court) of public opinion, while Paz is being tried in the forum's court of public opinion today. I assumed he's talking about all the drama that's being described by Paz. She vented to the group and was mad at Annie, but the group might have thought "yeah, but the real issue is Tony. Kat shouldn't be the one having to deal with Annie problems, and Annie can't be expected to not deal with it, her Dad should be doing better/more" I mean, I'd be more then a little concerned about his parenting if the only info I got was third hand information from someone with at least two degrees of separation and a different agenda/priorities. |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 29, 2021 18:02:06 GMT
Still not a Paz fan. More evidence today on what a gossip she is, and a manipulative, unkind one at that. Why would she be nervous about being called out for having spread gossip about how Annie's father treats her, if Kat really told her about that and didn't tell her to keep it secret? What if Kat didn't tell her, and she found out by snooping? Here we see Paz checking up on what Kat is doing www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2251 rather than talking to her... I have a lot easier time picturing the Annies telling Kat about the father thing than picturing Kat telling Paz. Anyway, that's my guess - we're about to discover that Paz isn't just a gossip but also a spy. It would make sense - she always seems quite up on what is going on, and we know Kat doesn't really like to talk about what's going on with her emotionally, so how else can Paz find this stuff out? Observation.
Which brings us back to my concern about how much stuff Paz knows that she shouldn't know. I only hope her behavior is just for normal selfish teenage reasons, and not to get info for one of the Shadow Men agents.  |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 29, 2021 18:25:24 GMT
Still not a Paz fan. More evidence today on what a gossip she is, and a manipulative, unkind one at that. Why would she be nervous about being called out for having spread gossip about how Annie's father treats her, if Kat really told her about that and didn't tell her to keep it secret? What if Kat didn't tell her, and she found out by snooping? Here we see Paz checking up on what Kat is doing www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2251 rather than talking to her... I have a lot easier time picturing the Annies telling Kat about the father thing than picturing Kat telling Paz. Anyway, that's my guess - we're about to discover that Paz isn't just a gossip but also a spy. It would make sense - she always seems quite up on what is going on, and we know Kat doesn't really like to talk about what's going on with her emotionally, so how else can Paz find this stuff out? Observation.
Which brings us back to my concern about how much stuff Paz knows that she shouldn't know. I only hope her behavior is just for normal selfish teenage reasons, and not to get info for one of the Shadow Men agents. Also not a Paz fan, but I will say she could just be nervous out of regular teenage embarrassment. An authority figure is asking questions because of Pazs gossip, so to me it seems like a "oh God I just needed to talk, what happened now? It was a tiny snowball I rolled down the hill, I already talked to Kat and thought this was fixed. Now instead its the size of a boulder and about to crush someone. Sure hope no one gets mad at me for rolling it" reaction. She could be snooping on her girl a bit, (easy to do with animal help honestly) but Paz has always read, to me at least, as an inexperienced teen trying her best. A master spy for the shadow men probably wouldn't have cconfronted Annie, so openly. |
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Post by blahzor on Mar 29, 2021 18:29:02 GMT
how is it manipulative when Tony literally treated them differently and we only know that b/c we're reading a comic, and she only knows it b/c Kat is telling her this and it's factual.
it goes like this
Annie complains to Kat, other Annie also complain to Kat. Kat who didn't have friends until Annie vents to Paz her girlfriend. Paz has never been lacking friends and talked to her human (and probably the animals as well). She has waaaay more people to talk to than the average person if you count animals. We also know some of the animals in the forest gossip (and telephone game style gossip at that)
also out of every character Cvet's entire personality is gossip
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Post by Polyhymnia on Mar 29, 2021 19:03:51 GMT
Still not a Paz fan. More evidence today on what a gossip she is, and a manipulative, unkind one at that. Why would she be nervous about being called out for having spread gossip about how Annie's father treats her, if Kat really told her about that and didn't tell her to keep it secret? What if Kat didn't tell her, and she found out by snooping? Here we see Paz checking up on what Kat is doing www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2251 rather than talking to her... I have a lot easier time picturing the Annies telling Kat about the father thing than picturing Kat telling Paz. Anyway, that's my guess - we're about to discover that Paz isn't just a gossip but also a spy. It would make sense - she always seems quite up on what is going on, and we know Kat doesn't really like to talk about what's going on with her emotionally, so how else can Paz find this stuff out? Observation.
Which brings us back to my concern about how much stuff Paz knows that she shouldn't know. I only hope her behavior is just for normal selfish teenage reasons, and not to get info for one of the Shadow Men agents. Also not a Paz fan, but I will say she could just be nervous out of regular teenage embarrassment. An authority figure is asking questions because of Pazs gossip, so to me it seems like a "oh God I just needed to talk, what happened now? It was a tiny snowball I rolled down the hill, I already talked to Kat and thought this was fixed. Now instead its the size of a boulder and about to crush someone. Sure hope no one gets mad at me for rolling it" reaction. She could be snooping on her girl a bit, (easy to do with animal help honestly) but Paz has always read, to me at least, as an inexperienced teen trying her best. A master spy for the shadow men probably wouldn't have cconfronted Annie, so openly. Yeah, I’m inclined to think Paz’s gossip is of the garden variety type. Judging by the below incident, I don’t think she really knows how to smoothly interact with her peers and so sometimes the way she chooses to go about checking on a friend or confronting someone are not socially smooth. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=913www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=916We tend to see her have enthusiastic emotional responses that are slightly stronger those we see from her peers (I’m thinking about “Cows!”, her confrontation with Annie, how she comes off as the odd one out in faraway morning, and the roundabout way she tried to protect Kat). Here I see her probably panicking a little because what felt okay before is now looking not-so-okay when an authority figure is questioning her. Plus I agree with Gemminie on Winsbury giving a subtle call-out, kinda like what’s going on in the below page. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=917 |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Mar 29, 2021 19:12:59 GMT
New idea so new post, but I really do like this page because you can see there is a group of people that are aware of what’s going on with Annie who do care, even if they don’t see it as their place to intervene. It makes her feel less isolated to me. Kinda reminds me of the Winsbury card (sorry about your hair, and your dad).
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Post by mitten on Mar 29, 2021 20:45:17 GMT
If it wasn't for Paz' previous actions, I would probably interpret this as just an innocent slip of the tongue that led to the spreading of accidental gossip. As it is, I don't yet trust her intentions. Now, what really intrigues me is the hope that we may finally learn what is behind Tony's difference in treatment of the two Antimonies! My (Tongue in cheek) fear is that it will end like this: *Flasback ends, we zoom in on Jones and Tony together on the porch* Jones: Ah, I understand now. That is the reason why you act as you do. Tony: Yes. I now have matters to attend to. *End chapter icon* |
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Post by taothegreat on Mar 29, 2021 20:53:53 GMT
I do wish we got more of Paz's good side in the comic these days. I feel like every character except for maybe Loup has had a more nuanced portrayal, and I feel uncomfortable that a young girl behaving relatively normally for her age in response to some upsetting circumstances is the villain of this piece. It feels kind of icky to me.
IMO Annie and Kat have both done far worse things in the comic than we've seen Paz do. We've just seen inside their head enough to know their reasons and not hate them for it.
I hope we get a Paz perspective chapter before this arc is through so we don't just have her be the villain for multiple chapters and then get unceremoniously dumped for it. I really enjoyed her as a character in all her early appearances and I don't want to see her relegated forever to "jealous girl".
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 29, 2021 21:33:07 GMT
Actually, it's Hanafuda! A Japanese card game I've only ever seen in a movie called Summer Wars. Kinda like Go Fish. Specifically they seem to be playing Koi-Koi, a neat game using Hanafuda cards, similar to Casino rather than Go Fish. Moon Viewing is also a potentially winning hand in the card game they're playing. Specifically "moon-viewing sake" is a two-card combination using one of the cards shown in Margo's hand (the sake cup), although it's not used in all variations. We can't see if she's actually on track to capture either card. Thank you two for this, because I had no idea what Moon Viewing was or what game they were supposed to be playing. Is Hanafuda a popular game in the UK? |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 29, 2021 21:39:03 GMT
I think in this instance Paz hasn't done wrong. Honestly, if you thought your friend's parent was treating your friend poorly, you should tell other people about it. I myself feel like an incredibly private person and I hate things in my personal life being shared without my consent, which others don't often realize, but if I were still a child and people were upset about my parents' behavior or my teachers' behavior or other ways I was being treated wrongly, I would hope people would talk about it. It's sweeping-under-the-rug stuff that means we don't find out about child molesters and sexual assaulters, to be quite frank. Now for Tony in this case it seems like nobody likes him because he seems so very inscrutable that everyone assumes the worst; and with him abandoning his daughter for 3 years, it's an even steeper uphill battle. Maybe that's contributed to his extreme introversion. Now in Paz's case I think she's just talking about her girlfriend and worries around her girlfriend with her friends, and that's imho a 100% healthy thing to do. How I wish I'd talked to my friends more during my first relationships, they could have helped call out red flags much sooner. (If you date someone who polices you about this, it's no bueno). I think the bad taste comes from the fact that her friends don't realize it's a confidence and in this case involves Annie, and that Paz knows now that it's down the chain it doesn't sound so good to be spreading it. Probably her worst mistake was telling Cvet though! Now definitely everybody knows! Makes sense Paz and Cvet are friends, Paz seems to get along with everyone except Annie really. (Think about it: robots, mice, puppies, giant underwater invertebrates, Renard, Cvet, her classmates and Kat, that's like the entire sentient world almost). EDIT to add: you know maybe at some point Paz found out about Annie coaching Mort to scare the bejeezus out of her back in Year One and that's why she's ambivalent about Annie. Yeah, I probably wouldn't forgive Annie, haha, I wouldn't have slept for weeks I completely agree with all of your points, except for people assuming the worst about Tony because he's inscrutable; no, it's because he treated her like THIS, in front of her entire class, on very his first day back to the court, for the first time they've met in 3 years. They have a perfectly good reason for thinking Tony is an asshat. First impressions stick the strongest. |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 29, 2021 23:03:02 GMT
I think in this instance Paz hasn't done wrong. Honestly, if you thought your friend's parent was treating your friend poorly, you should tell other people about it. I myself feel like an incredibly private person and I hate things in my personal life being shared without my consent, which others don't often realize, but if I were still a child and people were upset about my parents' behavior or my teachers' behavior or other ways I was being treated wrongly, I would hope people would talk about it. It's sweeping-under-the-rug stuff that means we don't find out about child molesters and sexual assaulters, to be quite frank. Now for Tony in this case it seems like nobody likes him because he seems so very inscrutable that everyone assumes the worst; and with him abandoning his daughter for 3 years, it's an even steeper uphill battle. Maybe that's contributed to his extreme introversion. Now in Paz's case I think she's just talking about her girlfriend and worries around her girlfriend with her friends, and that's imho a 100% healthy thing to do. How I wish I'd talked to my friends more during my first relationships, they could have helped call out red flags much sooner. (If you date someone who polices you about this, it's no bueno). I think the bad taste comes from the fact that her friends don't realize it's a confidence and in this case involves Annie, and that Paz knows now that it's down the chain it doesn't sound so good to be spreading it. Probably her worst mistake was telling Cvet though! Now definitely everybody knows! Makes sense Paz and Cvet are friends, Paz seems to get along with everyone except Annie really. (Think about it: robots, mice, puppies, giant underwater invertebrates, Renard, Cvet, her classmates and Kat, that's like the entire sentient world almost). EDIT to add: you know maybe at some point Paz found out about Annie coaching Mort to scare the bejeezus out of her back in Year One and that's why she's ambivalent about Annie. Yeah, I probably wouldn't forgive Annie, haha, I wouldn't have slept for weeks I completely agree with all of your points, except for people assuming the worst about Tony because he's inscrutable; no, it's because he treated her like THIS, in front of her entire class, on very his first day back to the court, for the first time they've met in 3 years. They have a perfectly good reason for thinking Tony is an asshat. First impressions stick the strongest. Most definitely. Also this. They don't need to listen to any gossip about that particular incident; they were right there. I'd say people who have a bad impression of how Tony treats Annie would include: - Kat
- Paz
- Janet
- Winsbury
- Margo
- John
- Becky
- Brown-Haired Girl Who Often Appears Near Becky
And because of this, you can add Smitty and Parley to the "bad impression" list. They might not have seen his treatment of her directly, but they saw the horrible room he made her live in (from chapters 52-67!), they saw that Renard had been taken away, they saw her without her customary makeup, and they saw what she'd done to her hair in response (which I'm sure made them wonder what was going on unseen, though they probably thought of emotional turmoil before metaphysical, and Parley first assumed he'd directly told her to cut it). |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 30, 2021 0:21:35 GMT
I just want to say... I like the colors on this page. |
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Post by taothegreat on Mar 30, 2021 1:03:52 GMT
I just want to say... I like the colors on this page. I feel the same! I've really enjoyed the art and colours of this chapter so far. Even though we haven't gotten far into it I'm feeling very drawn in just by the visual style. I'm also quite enjoying seeing all these characters we haven't seen in a while. |
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Post by Angry Individual on Mar 30, 2021 1:19:11 GMT
I like to imagine Jones going back to Cvet by the end of this chapter and relaying all this information she's learning specifically to just entice more chaos into the world of Gunnerkrigg Court's gossip scene.
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Post by arf on Mar 30, 2021 1:21:42 GMT
Well, I think someone who stands up for lab mice rights can't be all bad. For perspective, we've only seen Paz's overly protective 'dark side' come out on two occasions.* They just happen to have been recent occasions. The current page may be in reference to that recent (and possibly resolved) behaviour. Now can we discuss how cool it is that a group of English teenagers are playing a Japanese card game?** *OK, maybe three. ** Did you know that ancient Egyptians had d20s? |
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Post by wies on Mar 30, 2021 5:09:35 GMT
I don't think Paz is doing this to drive a wedge between Kat and Antimony, because what she told them actually is sympathetic to Antimony. (Tony treats the two Annies uneven.)
It is kinda a sensitive subject, but it is also true.
Anyway, it is hard to judge this gossiping, because we don't know her motivation for doing so.
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Post by silicondream on Mar 30, 2021 6:11:03 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. She started out decent but it's clear by this point that she just can't handle how close Annie and Kat are and how Annie affects Kat's life. I would say Paz has trouble with anybody getting close to Kat--anybody human, at least. Annie's her closest friend and Tony's her closest work colleague, and Paz is fairly hostile toward both of them. (Her continuing to badmouth Tony is pretty notable, given how consistently his relationship with most other cast members has improved.) Reynard's the exception; Paz is excessively affectionate with him and seems to glomp him every time they meet. But he's a captive animal, and she's used to having power over them. It still feels to me like she's trying to maintain control over his relationship with Kat. Of course, some insecurity is understandable given that: 1) her girlfriend is a larval machine goddess with a cult of fanatical robot worshippers 2) she's the Aquaman of the cast, and 3) her day job is being the veterinary equivalent of a concentration camp guard. Not dissing animal research, I've worked in a lab myself, but I couldn't talk to the critters. That has to be incredibly stressful. |
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Post by speedwell on Mar 30, 2021 6:46:15 GMT
Let's look at Paz through the lens of Myers-Briggs personality types for a second. I'm an INTJ. That stands for "introvertive/intuitive/thinking/judging" and in a nutshell means someone who is introspective, analytical, and a bit detached and severe. Paz is, I recognise, an ISFP, "introvertive/sensing/feeling/perceiving", nearly my opposite. She leads with her heart rather than her brain. Her mode is "if it feels good, it is good". She is the most caring, sensitive, retiring, and loyal individual possible and also the most manipulative and aggressive when under stress. Paz is under stress and thus manifesting the worst parts of her personality. See for yourself: www.16personalities.com/isfp-personalityLet's hand it to Tom for delineating a character so sensitively that we can literally personality-type her and draw good conclusions from the exercise. |
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