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Post by pyradonis on Mar 30, 2021 7:41:27 GMT
Well, I think someone who stands up for lab mice rights can't be all bad. For perspective, we've only seen Paz's overly protective 'dark side' come out on two occasions.* They just happen to have been recent occasions. The current page may be in reference to that recent (and possibly resolved) behaviour. Now can we discuss how cool it is that a group of English teenagers are playing a Japanese card game?** *OK, maybe three. ** Did you know that ancient Egyptians had d20s? here was also pretty telling. |
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Post by gpvos on Mar 30, 2021 7:48:28 GMT
Also, just throwing this theory out there, but that huge red flag we saw on page 2384 (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2384) which was, "I think with you there, things will be okay!" might very likely be massive foreshadowing on whatever mess this is about to be here in this chapter or be about Paz's behaviour and how it negatively affects Kat/Annie/The Narrative. I'm apparently very dense, but why is that particular sentence such a huge red flag? |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 30, 2021 8:38:32 GMT
They have a perfectly good reason for thinking Tony is an asshat. First impressions stick the strongest. Tony's first impression hasn't stuck with most of the cast, though. His students think he's a good teacher, Kat and Juliette and Arthur think he's a great colleague, and Annie seems genuinely happy living with him. Reynard limits his criticism to the occasional grumble, and even Zimmy and Coyote and Ysengrin expressed some sympathy for the guy. Everyone still knows Tony's got issues, but the only characters who haven't thawed toward him at all are Eglamore and Parley. It'll be interesting to find out what Paz thinks of him directly, if we ever do. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Mar 30, 2021 8:51:03 GMT
As much as people love Donny and Anja (and there is lots of love) it shows that despite being adults and teachers (and thus responsible for care) they've ignored very obvious things about the fucked up Antimony and Carver relationship. Because the kids have noticed. A quick "let's spy on your dad!" session doesn't really cut it.
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Post by aline on Mar 30, 2021 10:58:24 GMT
I don't think Paz is doing this to drive a wedge between Kat and Antimony, because what she told them actually is sympathetic to Antimony. (Tony treats the two Annies uneven.) It is kinda a sensitive subject, but it is also true. Anyway, it is hard to judge this gossiping, because we don't know her motivation for doing so. I agree. This isn't a rumor likely to harm Annie so I don't think she told it with malicious intent. Maybe she too enjoys gossiping, maybe there's a bit of attention seeking. I don't think it's a rare behavior at that age to be indiscreet among friends. Edit: that said, I think this is likely to damage her relationship with Paz if she keeps doing it. |
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Post by aline on Mar 30, 2021 13:30:08 GMT
I'm new to the forum (but longtime reader) so someone may have already said this. maybe Tony treated Annie differently because she was from a different timestream so he didn't feel crushing guilt and anxiety over 'killing' Surma and hurting Annie trying to revive Surma because *he* (as in this timestream tony) didn't do it? Or it could literally just be the makup makes her look more like surma, like he told Dolan Sr. when he 1st returned. (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1559) Welcome here! I don't think it's that directly, because we already saw CourtAnnie try to talk to him with no make up, pretending to be ForestAnnie and he still acted distant. What interests me is why one was wearing make up and not the other. I think Margo has a point with their slightly different personalities. They were the same people but with slightly different experiences. One met Loup. The other spent six months living with her dad and trying to improve their relationship. Maybe CourtAnnie was working a bit too hard at her daughter-father relationship and this made Tony more anxious? Maybe ForestAnnie herself was more relaxed around Tony because of what she had just gone through and it helped him open up? They were both on different sides of an argument the last time they were different people and I think it has to do with that conflict: hanging onto the childhood images of her parents, or moving on. We saw CourtAnnie want the image of her dead mom to stay there longer. Maybe she also hung onto her idea of who Tony is in the same way, and it manifested in this unspoken tension. All only speculation of course. |
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Post by frogspawned on Mar 30, 2021 15:46:52 GMT
This page reads a lot like forum discussion.
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Post by flowsthead on Mar 30, 2021 17:13:31 GMT
I think some people here should look back into the discussions when Paz was "confronting" (threatening) Annie. Yes, Paz is just a teenager, and this specific instance of gossiping isn't inherently bad. But she has not made up for her really toxic behavior before. And the comparisons to Annie also being a teenager are insane. When Annie hurt Mort, she apologized. When Annie was acting like a shit towards Jack, she apologized. When Kat started dating Paz and Annie felt insecure about losing her friend, she didn't take it out on Paz or Kat. When Annie makes mistakes she also takes responsibility for it. I haven't seen Paz do the same.
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Post by warrl on Mar 30, 2021 17:33:51 GMT
Is it just me, or is Paz kind of the worst?? Are we supposed to like her? I have tried for years to warm to her, but I just can't seem to do it. I get the feeling that we’re not supposed to hate her and there’s plenty of reasons to like her, but she personally rubs me wrong. Tom had talked in his retrospective about her like her behavior is pretty normal, but it’s made me pretty uncomfortable in the past. Basically, she sucks, she is cringe-worthy bad, at relationships... which, at that age, is quite normal. He's no better at relationships, and lacks the excuse of youth. |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 30, 2021 18:24:48 GMT
Also, just throwing this theory out there, but that huge red flag we saw on page 2384 (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2384) which was, "I think with you there, things will be okay!" might very likely be massive foreshadowing on whatever mess this is about to be here in this chapter or be about Paz's behaviour and how it negatively affects Kat/Annie/The Narrative. I'm apparently very dense, but why is that particular sentence such a huge red flag? Well, any "I'm sure things will be OK!" has a connotation similar to "I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong!" or "What's the worst thing that could happen?" Basically, Somebody in a Story Is Speculating that the Future Will Be Good. It's Tempting Fate. (Or " There's nobody I'd trust more to keep it safe than you!") |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 30, 2021 18:55:33 GMT
As much as people love Donny and Anja (and there is lots of love) it shows that despite being adults and teachers (and thus responsible for care) they've ignored very obvious things about the fucked up Antimony and Carver relationship. I don't think they've ignored anything--they've simply chosen not to intervene beyond talking to Tony and Annie about it individually. And there's not much else they can do, as government operatives in a totalitarian society. Annie and Tony are both incredibly stubborn, and the Court is not known for its devotion to child welfare. The Donlans can't exactly call CPS and ask for a family therapist. Besides, Tony's presence is shielding Annie from Court retribution, and she has no other guardians beyond a collection of capricious and occasionally homicidal supernatural beings. He got her back on track academically and he's the only adult in her life who's consistently protective of her. Fucked up their relationship may be, but she'd be far worse off without him. |
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Post by aline on Mar 30, 2021 19:37:23 GMT
I think some people here should look back into the discussions when Paz was "confronting" (threatening) Annie. Yes, Paz is just a teenager, and this specific instance of gossiping isn't inherently bad. But she has not made up for her really toxic behavior before. And the comparisons to Annie also being a teenager are insane. When Annie hurt Mort, she apologized. When Annie was acting like a shit towards Jack, she apologized. When Kat started dating Paz and Annie felt insecure about losing her friend, she didn't take it out on Paz or Kat. When Annie makes mistakes she also takes responsibility for it. I haven't seen Paz do the same. On this page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2381 and this page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2383 it was pretty obvious that she wasn't proud of herself at all. She expresses regret to Kat and admits it was wrong of her to do. Kat's reply in the last frame implies Annie has already forgiven Paz. I know there are many here who feel the need to see Paz go to Annie and issue a formal apology, but the fact is, if Annie wanted that to happen, she could easily have made it happen. She decided to smooth the issue over and since she is the injured party, that settles it. Again in today's page we see Paz be all flustered and ashamed. So while her behavior is questionable she does have a moral compass. I suspect there will be more conflict ahead with complicated feelings and kids messing up. But this girl is definitely not some evil eminence grise. this specific instance of gossiping isn't inherently bad I don't think it is malicious, but I do think it is bad. It's a private information about two very private people. Paz is betraying the confidence of her girlfriend. While it's not causing any direct harm to Annie or her reputation, and was probably some impulsive oversharing, in Annie's place I'd be livid. More livid than about the "ganging up" incident (which was almost cute because Paz has like 0 skills when it comes to intimidation, she needs better back up than Becky if she wants to frighten Annie  ) |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 30, 2021 20:09:11 GMT
As much as people love Donny and Anja (and there is lots of love) it shows that despite being adults and teachers (and thus responsible for care) they've ignored very obvious things about the fucked up Antimony and Carver relationship. I don't think they've ignored anything--they've simply chosen not to intervene beyond talking to Tony and Annie about it individually. And there's not much else they can do, as government operatives in a totalitarian society. Annie and Tony are both incredibly stubborn, and the Court is not known for its devotion to child welfare. The Donlans can't exactly call CPS and ask for a family therapist. Besides, Tony's presence is shielding Annie from Court retribution, and she has no other guardians beyond a collection of capricious and occasionally homicidal supernatural beings. He got her back on track academically and he's the only adult in her life who's consistently protective of her. Fucked up their relationship may be, but she'd be far worse off without him. Yes, it can be easy to forget that the people who live in the Court exist in a world quite different from ours. They're free to do what they want up to a point, but if they cross a line the Shadow Men come down on them without recourse, and they've got no say in what the Shadow Men should or shouldn't consider out of bounds. There's no clue who's really in charge, and no indication that anyone ever tries to find out, and that should tell you something right there. Whatever the Court wants (whoever makes those decisions) gets all the resources it needs, and everything else gets ... whatever's most easily available. The Court leadership has no transparency, no oversight, no checks or balances, and no face, and the alternative is to leave and live in the outside world, and it's unclear how exactly one would explain your presence there to whatever governments exist out there when you have no prior records or proof of identity, unless one had the Court's help to establish such things. The Court basically has everyone captive. This could be a pretty dystopian, Kafkaesque story focusing on everyone's personal tragedies but for the fact that it's not the kind of story the author wants to tell. People ignore the f***ed-up Carver family because there are always 1001 other f***ed-up things going on every day. |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 30, 2021 20:12:20 GMT
Again in today's page we see Paz be all flustered and ashamed. So while her behavior is questionable she does have a moral compass. I suspect there will be more conflict ahead with complicated feelings and kids messing up. But this girl is definitely not some evil eminence grise. I just learned the phrase "éminence grise," so today's a good day! |
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Post by flowsthead on Mar 30, 2021 20:29:58 GMT
I think some people here should look back into the discussions when Paz was "confronting" (threatening) Annie. Yes, Paz is just a teenager, and this specific instance of gossiping isn't inherently bad. But she has not made up for her really toxic behavior before. And the comparisons to Annie also being a teenager are insane. When Annie hurt Mort, she apologized. When Annie was acting like a shit towards Jack, she apologized. When Kat started dating Paz and Annie felt insecure about losing her friend, she didn't take it out on Paz or Kat. When Annie makes mistakes she also takes responsibility for it. I haven't seen Paz do the same. On this page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2381 and this page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2383 it was pretty obvious that she wasn't proud of herself at all. She expresses regret to Kat and admits it was wrong of her to do. Kat's reply in the last frame implies Annie has already forgiven Paz. I know there are many here who feel the need to see Paz go to Annie and issue a formal apology, but the fact is, if Annie wanted that to happen, she could easily have made it happen. She decided to smooth the issue over and since she is the injured party, that settles it. Again in today's page we see Paz be all flustered and ashamed. So while her behavior is questionable she does have a moral compass. I suspect there will be more conflict ahead with complicated feelings and kids messing up. But this girl is definitely not some evil eminence grise. this specific instance of gossiping isn't inherently bad I don't think it is malicious, but I do think it is bad. It's a private information about two very private people. Paz is betraying the confidence of her girlfriend. While it's not causing any direct harm to Annie or her reputation, and was probably some impulsive oversharing, in Annie's place I'd be livid. More livid than about the "ganging up" incident (which was almost cute because Paz has like 0 skills when it comes to intimidation, she needs better back up than Becky if she wants to frighten Annie ) Maybe if you're being generous in 2381 that comes off as embarrassed, but 2383 is just a straight up lie. She was absolutely trying to come between them. And for me it's not about how bothered Annie was or whether she needs or accepts Paz's apology. The fact that Paz doesn't apologize is a sign she doesn't take responsibility for her own actions. And even in this scene, Kat does all the talking and explaining for Paz. Paz even throws a dig at Annie during the conversation with her "hmm". This is not a person who has reflected on their actions. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 30, 2021 21:17:46 GMT
As much as people love Donny and Anja (and there is lots of love) it shows that despite being adults and teachers (and thus responsible for care) they've ignored very obvious things about the fucked up Antimony and Carver relationship. I don't think they've ignored anything--they've simply chosen not to intervene beyond talking to Tony and Annie about it individually. And there's not much else they can do, as government operatives in a totalitarian society. Annie and Tony are both incredibly stubborn, and the Court is not known for its devotion to child welfare. The Donlans can't exactly call CPS and ask for a family therapist. Besides, Tony's presence is shielding Annie from Court retribution, and she has no other guardians beyond a collection of capricious and occasionally homicidal supernatural beings. He got her back on track academically and he's the only adult in her life who's consistently protective of her. Fucked up their relationship may be, but she'd be far worse off without him. I mean, even if this WASN'T a totalitarian society secreted away in a mythological nook of England, there wouldn't actually be that much that Donny or Anja could do. Like, Tony isn't actually abusing Annie or failing to provide essential care for her, he's just kind of being a garden-variety emotional wreck and terrible father with no social skills or nurturing abilities. None of that is illegal in our society! In our world, situations like this are either resolved by deliberate choices of the people involved (e.g. getting a family therapist, like @silcondream said) or, far more commonly, they're just not really resolved at all. Often , the best you can hope for is that the child just accepts that they're never going to get the love and support they need from the parent(s), and goes in search of it from alternate sources. Annie has a damn good support network of friends and found family already, she can visit Kat and Kat's parents whenever she needs to, and there's...not much more they can provide than that, frankly. It sucks, but that's reality for you. |
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Post by blahzor on Mar 30, 2021 21:28:18 GMT
I think some people here should look back into the discussions when Paz was "confronting" (threatening) Annie. Yes, Paz is just a teenager, and this specific instance of gossiping isn't inherently bad. But she has not made up for her really toxic behavior before. And the comparisons to Annie also being a teenager are insane. When Annie hurt Mort, she apologized. When Annie was acting like a shit towards Jack, she apologized. When Kat started dating Paz and Annie felt insecure about losing her friend, she didn't take it out on Paz or Kat. When Annie makes mistakes she also takes responsibility for it. I haven't seen Paz do the same. even when Paz is in a lot of the pages of a chapter it never focus on her to that level. her side Story is the most we've seen of her outside of the letter chapter |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 30, 2021 21:58:59 GMT
But Kat did keep the arrow safe! No harm came to it! |
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Post by todd on Mar 31, 2021 0:01:52 GMT
Yes, it can be easy to forget that the people who live in the Court exist in a world quite different from ours. They're free to do what they want up to a point, but if they cross a line the Shadow Men come down on them without recourse, and they've got no say in what the Shadow Men should or shouldn't consider out of bounds. There's no clue who's really in charge, and no indication that anyone ever tries to find out, and that should tell you something right there. Whatever the Court wants (whoever makes those decisions) gets all the resources it needs, and everything else gets ... whatever's most easily available. The Court leadership has no transparency, no oversight, no checks or balances, and no face, and the alternative is to leave and live in the outside world, and it's unclear how exactly one would explain your presence there to whatever governments exist out there when you have no prior records or proof of identity, unless one had the Court's help to establish such things. The Court basically has everyone captive. This could be a pretty dystopian, Kafkaesque story focusing on everyone's personal tragedies but for the fact that it's not the kind of story the author wants to tell. People ignore the f***ed-up Carver family because there are always 1001 other f***ed-up things going on every day. I think that is a good point - the Court leadership has been making a mess of things since the early days (maybe even before they murdered Jeanne; I have the suspicion that they botched relations with Gilltie Wood enough to ensure the crisis that led them to murder Jeanne to solve it). A mess of things from a moral perspective (they seem quite efficient at achieving their goals). The best that can be said for them is that they've some extremely difficult neighbors (though if they weren't living next door to Gilltie Wood and carrying out experiments with the ether, they wouldn't have that problem) and that they're so captivated by their goal of studying the ether (and apparently purely out of scientific curiosity) that they're blind to the full consequences of their actions. At least we have the hint in the last chapter that Kat will somehow steer the Court in a better direction. It clearly won't be easy (Kat herself has fallen victim to the Court's mentality at times - not to the point where she'd murder two people and then cover it up by making it look as if the murder victims had never existed - but to the point where she's done unwise things like incorporating the arrow into the "switch Rey's ownership back to Annie"), and it'll clearly take a while - but at least there's hope. |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 31, 2021 1:01:18 GMT
It is certainly odd that Tony treated the Annies so differently, but I'm not sure what anyone could do about it. Not good form to interfere with the internals of a family unless actual abuse is going on! Tony has actually grown on me a bit. It's been shown that he's got issues interacting with people and can be extremely tone deaf in his actions. But you know, he isn't actually malicious, and I suspect he isn't even a bad guy really. I bet nothing Jones has heard about his behavior will rise to the level where she feels she even needs to say anything to him, beyond MAYBE asking what's up with that. I'm really a lot more worried about Paz at this point. I don't know if she's a bad person, I just know that she's immature even for her age and jealous beyond reason. She never actually apologizes for anything - she just looks embarrassed and evades when confronted and doesn't even explain what really happened or why she did it. The embarrassed look in this page makes me suspect that still we haven't seen the full story of her behavior. Which would be fine if she wasn't both in the inner circle, with access to all of the information, and untrustworthy. Even without snooping she almost certainly knows about shadow and robot and the other robots getting their new bodies and Juliette and Arthur doing things not in keeping with their jobs. She probably also knows about the arrow and where the computer is and Coyote knows what else! Oh, and she definitely knows about Kat being on the path to RoboGodHood, because she SAW IT (on the boat). I wonder who she's told about that? Is it really bad that she told people about how Tony treated his daughters? In the grand scheme of things, no, probably not. I'm more worried about what else she's telling people that she shouldn't be and how exactly she's learning things. Animal spies?  Oh, different topic - I think the Jones scenes are going backwards in time. Like we saw her try to talk to Annie and stop and make eye contact with Tony, before that she talked to Cvet and Parley, and before that she talked to the card players. Probably doesn't matter, no order dependencies yet... But we may see another flashback or two, culminating with us learning what started her on this path. Which is fine with me, Jones is cool. |
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Post by alevice on Mar 31, 2021 4:00:09 GMT
I lost track of this thread, but to sum my current thought, I think Paz is a good person and good at handling a relationship during the honeymoon phase (she was always good at reassuring and support Kat), I just think she is unintentionally terrible handling a relationship crisis - she seems that she is trying to fix it, but the way she is handling it is the worst way it could have been handled and will definitely impact her relationships (and hurt several people) until she learns that she must find a different approach to solve the problem.
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Post by philman on Mar 31, 2021 6:37:43 GMT
Ugh, I didn't check in with this thread on Monday as I knew it was going to turn into yet another "let's all hate on Paz" thread again and I just couldn't handle it that day. Not much better checking it today really.
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Post by gpvos on Mar 31, 2021 7:51:21 GMT
I'm apparently very dense, but why is that particular sentence such a huge red flag? Well, any "I'm sure things will be OK!" has a connotation similar to "I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong!" or "What's the worst thing that could happen?" Basically, Somebody in a Story Is Speculating that the Future Will Be Good. It's Tempting Fate. Okay, it's a huge Chekhov's Gun, that was quite clear to me. I thought badchemistry implied that it reflected badly about Paz's character, since that is also a meaning of "red flag" and was the thing under discussion. |
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 1, 2021 0:56:31 GMT
Apropos of nothing: I sometimes use a text-to-speech plugin to listen to the forum comments while I'm cooking. I burst out laughing when it rendered the above phrase as "eff-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-Ed-up." (The text-to-speech works pretty well--except for some reason it always reads Zimmy as "Zimma"... make of that what you will.) |
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Post by badchemistry on Apr 1, 2021 7:29:10 GMT
I'm apparently very dense, but why is that particular sentence such a huge red flag? Well, any "I'm sure things will be OK!" has a connotation similar to "I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong!" or "What's the worst thing that could happen?" Basically, Somebody in a Story Is Speculating that the Future Will Be Good. It's Tempting Fate. (Or " There's nobody I'd trust more to keep it safe than you!") Yes, exactly it! And it just so happens Kat is saying this specifically about Paz. Not a general, "I've got a good feeling!" or "I think things will be better from now on!" but specifically about Paz(https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2384), who the very next time shows up in the comic... Is immediately placed as a gossip and possibly worse! Again, I think it's foreshadowing to bigger problems that may be explored later. But that's just me speculating |
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Post by fia on Apr 1, 2021 14:12:49 GMT
This page reads a lot like forum discussion. do you think this means Tom's put us in the comic? |
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Post by speedwell on Apr 1, 2021 15:02:54 GMT
This page reads a lot like forum discussion. do you think this means Tom's put us in the comic? I'd pay money to see that  |
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 2, 2021 2:34:17 GMT
do you think this means Tom's put us in the comic? I'd pay money to see that This isn't the first time characters have echoed the fans' thoughts... |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 2, 2021 11:21:55 GMT
And even more obvious here. |
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Post by frogspawned on Apr 2, 2021 15:19:54 GMT
And even more obvious here. Don't forget here, where some strange guy I don't recognise says a lot that could have been ripped straight off the board. |
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