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Post by chrisjenl on Nov 16, 2020 12:17:38 GMT
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Post by ohthatone on Nov 16, 2020 13:14:40 GMT
Where is everyone?
Anyway, I'm really glad to see court annie isn't terribly broken up about this (at least, once she gets her makeup-mask on-- which wouldn't be good if she's only projecting cool beans, but I would think forest annie would pick up on that.)
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Post by Gemminie on Nov 16, 2020 13:23:17 GMT
Yes, Tony did try. He tried hard (for him), but that hill was too steep to climb. That last frame has an ominous quality, much like the final frame of the Kat/Paz scene, but what it's ominous of is of course unclear. "A step on the way to knowing him better" could be followed by something happening to him, or just by a cut to another scene elsewhere.
So we've had 6 pages of Kat and Paz, then Zimmy screaming, then 5 pages of Annies/Renard/Tony. I wonder, well, what's next. It's too early to tell whether this chapter will be a series of slices of life punctuated by Zimmy screams. If it is, will it be 6/1/6/1/6/1/etc., or 6/1/5/1/4/1/etc. (accelerating), or was that Zimmy's only appearance this chapter?
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novia
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Post by novia on Nov 16, 2020 13:26:14 GMT
Server was down most of the night. The cloud provider Tom uses to host the site had an outage last night, and there's probably at least one manual component to putting the site back up. Tom was probably sleeping since he lives in NYC now. Long story short, you're one of the first people to see the comic today. Lucky you. I predict a switch to another set of characters after another screaming Zimmy... but who? |
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Post by speedwell on Nov 16, 2020 13:31:55 GMT
It's so hard when you are dependent on someone who wants you to be happy and who does their pitiful best, but honestly can't get their heads around what you actually need from them. It's difficult for me to talk about Tony as a dad because my dad was Tony. His absence was having his mind constantly in his work, and he really was autistic, and he was so discouraging, and I was no Annie. My therapist had to tell me, at the age of 50, "your dad has been dead for over ten years and he was a jerk". I had trouble disconnecting myself with my dad and what he said and did for that long. A person can't completely "break up" with a parent who isn't right for you, however much you might need to, until you are yourself an adult, but Annie is far more adult than I was at her age. If I had had a "sister self" at that time we would probably have spent all our free time worrying and feeding our own distress.  |
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Post by AluK on Nov 16, 2020 13:32:59 GMT
I predict a switch to another set of characters after another screaming Zimmy... but who? Four pages of Robot and Shadow. |
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Post by wies on Nov 16, 2020 13:33:44 GMT
The comic! It goes up again! The last panel is interesting. Not only because it seems to signify another scene transition. (Another zimmy scream incoming? shudder) But because I think this is the first time we saw Annie so whole again after Tony's return. Look at it. She has her make-up up, but is not looking stoic but actually smiling confidently. She is no longer devastated when Anthony behaves distant, but tries to find a way to work with it and even looks for positive signs. It really feels like to me a sort of merging of the natures Court Annie and Forest Annie have come to represent. It is quite the opposite of this page. |
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Post by quinnr on Nov 16, 2020 15:06:43 GMT
It's so hard when you are dependent on someone who wants you to be happy and who does their pitiful best, but honestly can't get their heads around what you actually need from them. It's difficult for me to talk about Tony as a dad because my dad was Tony. His absence was having his mind constantly in his work, and he really was autistic, and he was so discouraging, and I was no Annie. My therapist had to tell me, at the age of 50, "your dad has been dead for over ten years and he was a jerk". I had trouble disconnecting myself with my dad and what he said and did for that long. A person can't completely "break up" with a parent who isn't right for you, however much you might need to, until you are yourself an adult, but Annie is far more adult than I was at her age. If I had had a "sister self" at that time we would probably have spent all our free time worrying and feeding our own distress. Amen to this, it's so tough and I think it's amazing that Gunnerkrigg Court manages to pull out such nuanced themes. I'm getting such whiplash from this chapter, but that really is how emotions work sometimes I suppose! |
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Post by Per on Nov 16, 2020 15:13:58 GMT
Tom could set up duelling donation boxes to determine the next page:
[ ] Zimmy screaming
[ ] Basil breakdancing
[ ] Flying octopus breakdancing
[ ] Zimmy breakdancing
[ ] etc.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 16, 2020 15:19:17 GMT
is it just me or there's way more make up on her face in panel 5? or it's just the way it's drawn
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Post by verrenox on Nov 16, 2020 15:49:38 GMT
Can't wait for wednesday's jump scare.
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Post by ohthatone on Nov 16, 2020 16:04:26 GMT
Tom could set up duelling donation boxes to determine the next page: [ ] Zimmy screaming [ ] Basil breakdancing [ ] Flying octopus breakdancing [ ] Zimmy breakdancing [ ] etc. [] boxbot to NOT breakdance [] boxbot to just break |
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 16, 2020 16:15:07 GMT
slices of life punctuated by Zimmy screams Ah yes. It's a popular manga subgenre. |
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Post by ctso74 on Nov 16, 2020 16:26:49 GMT
Tom could set up duelling donation boxes to determine the next page: [ ] Zimmy screaming [ ] Basil breakdancing [ ] Flying octopus breakdancing [ ] Zimmy breakdancing [ ] etc. [] boxbot to NOT breakdance [] boxbot to just break [ ] Tony breakdancing, with a bewildered kid in the background saying "He's not even wearing shoes?!" |
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 16, 2020 17:50:32 GMT
Hmmm... we're reading a chapter called "Behind it all". Which will be the first chapter of the next book, i.e. prime time to introduce something new, like a second Antimony or the return of her father.
And so far we've had the pattern of taking small steps in previous plotlines interspersed with Zimmy screaming. Interesting.
And Zimmy is the most at ease when it rains, and we just saw that weather data was something important enough for Tony to currently be working on it. Could be nothing, could be subtle foreshadowing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 18:48:25 GMT
I really struggle with this part of the story. I like Tom's writing a lot generally and of course I don't need to agree with Tom and/or the characters in Tom's stories to enjoy his writing, but I guess as an adult with two parents who genuinely tried all my life to be good parents, the sort of pathetic non-effort Tony makes toward Annie and the utterly shitty way he sometimes treats her just strikes me as a staggering level of unrecognized abuse.
Sure, abusive people exist but I also don't really get why other people also take a "I guess this is fine" approach, like Kat and Kat's mom and dad are basically good people who love Annie. Why would they not say "well I'm really sorry an eyeless demon girl blew off your hand and you had a sad life but you are super clearly an unfit father so so the Annies will be living with us until you dig yourself out of your personal endless self-pity pit."
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Post by wies on Nov 16, 2020 20:05:44 GMT
I really struggle with this part of the story. I like Tom's writing a lot generally and of course I don't need to agree with Tom and/or the characters in Tom's stories to enjoy his writing, but I guess as an adult with two parents who genuinely tried all my life to be good parents, the sort of pathetic non-effort Tony makes toward Annie and the utterly shitty way he sometimes treats her just strikes me as a staggering level of unrecognized abuse. Sure, abusive people exist but I also don't really get why other people also take a "I guess this is fine" approach, like Kat and Kat's mom and dad are basically good people who love Annie. Why would they not say "well I'm really sorry an eyeless demon girl blew off your hand and you had a sad life but you are super clearly an unfit father so so the Annies will be living with us until you dig yourself out of your personal endless self-pity pit." Yeah, a storyline in which an kid tries to connect with an abusive parent can be quite uncomfortable. If it helps, I think Tony is not abusive. I think his entrance made for a distorted view of him. It was when he was at his most asshole-ish, directly taking control over Annie's life without giving her a say in what happened. (though that behaviour also likely got spurned on by the Court) It was awful and clearly damaged Annie, but I think he never did something like that again. It was him lashing out because of how underprepared he was for the emotional shock, but then pretty much all he did after that was being hella cold and distant, but not trying to abuse her. Tony is a bad dad, but more of the neglectful kind than the abusive kind imo. The problem with that idea is that Annie does want to stay with Anthony and likely would not have reacted well to that idea. |
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Post by Fishy on Nov 16, 2020 20:30:20 GMT
I was once very very critical of a Tony, but that was when he was first introduced. When he didn’t show any humanity. And now I can’t hold anything against Tony because he HAS shown humanity, he has shown the ability to love, and he has shown the desire to improve. That last part is the most important. Tony is unsatisfied, and wishes to be better. That bettering won’t happen if they’re separated, and I simply can’t accept “He should be a better person already, screw this slow progress” as a something to hold against him because I don’t know what’s going on in his head.
Maybe it’s just because I’ve had a lot of times where my own brain feels like it’s my worst enemy. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if people hated me because of part of my brain that I too wanted to just stop and be better already. But I don’t have Tony’s brain. I don’t know how he feels. I can’t imagine the hundreds of thousands of thoughts that must run through his head every time he looks as his daughter. How could I judge him for that? I would be a worse person for doing so. I would be completely without empathy, to assume I know better about how he feels or to discard his pain and tell him to suck it up for Annie’s sake. The only thing I can do is have faith that he’s putting 100% of his effort into every attempt, even if those attempts are slow and painful. That’s the only way forward.
Not long ago I thought maybe Courtney counted as two people, or some other etherical nonsense that could be fixed and would instantly fix this relationship. That still might be the case, but I no longer hope it is. It would feel like discarding all of their efforts.
You guys ever play the original Mass Effect? The Mako was an absolute mess to drive. Then in the sequel, the Hammerhead was also an absolute mess to drive, but at least it handled well. Then in the third game... there was just nothing that filled the same role. And that was disappointing. I didn’t want them to stop trying; I wanted them to sit down, take a deep breath, and get a bit closer to getting it right this time.
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gergle
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Post by gergle on Nov 16, 2020 20:35:53 GMT
I really struggle with this part of the story. I like Tom's writing a lot generally and of course I don't need to agree with Tom and/or the characters in Tom's stories to enjoy his writing, but I guess as an adult with two parents who genuinely tried all my life to be good parents, the sort of pathetic non-effort Tony makes toward Annie and the utterly shitty way he sometimes treats her just strikes me as a staggering level of unrecognized abuse. Sure, abusive people exist but I also don't really get why other people also take a "I guess this is fine" approach, like Kat and Kat's mom and dad are basically good people who love Annie. Why would they not say "well I'm really sorry an eyeless demon girl blew off your hand and you had a sad life but you are super clearly an unfit father so so the Annies will be living with us until you dig yourself out of your personal endless self-pity pit." I agree, I'm getting tired and sad (and having flashbacks) watching Annie try to connect with Tony, the easy acceptance by others (and Annie) of Tony's treatment of her, etc. There is no evidence to support Anja's report of events, other than Tony and mind-controlled Surma said so. One thing though, Zimmy only split his lip and knocked a bit of sense into him. He cut his own hand off on the dubious advise of... some random guys in a cave who claimed to be somebodies they clearly were not. |
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gergle
Junior Member
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Post by gergle on Nov 16, 2020 20:38:07 GMT
The problem with that idea is that Annie does want to stay with Anthony and likely would not have reacted well to that idea. Yeah, victims of Stockholm Syndrome have been known to actively fight their rescuers. |
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Post by wies on Nov 16, 2020 20:48:13 GMT
The problem with that idea is that Annie does want to stay with Anthony and likely would not have reacted well to that idea. Yeah, victims of Stockholm Syndrome have been known to actively fight their rescuers. Oh, her need for his approval was absolutely unhealthy. But that doesn't change the fact that such a move would likely be contra-productive. At least she has clearly moved on from needing his approval - she even outright defied him in a moment Tom regrettably didn't show on-screen - this is less a victim of neglect craving approval and more a daughter who having lost her mother and realizing she never really connected with her distant dad and wants to have that. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 21:21:07 GMT
I think Tom's portrayal of Annie is realistic, but this is a story where Annie often solves her problems with literal magic, so it's just a very sad (for me) direction for the story to take to see her largely accept and internalize Tony's just flat out awful parenting as her fault and to take on the burden of thinking that it is in any way her obligation to "reconnect" with him.
If I were writing a "happy" 10 years later story, if Annie were asked about her relationship with Tony, I would hope she would not say "after years and years of work I finally got him to open up, yay", I would want her to say "I have no idea where he is or if he's alive or dead, and I don't know that I ever will."
GC is somewhat for children. I'm really hoping Annie is eventually spoken to by an actual smart, empathic adult who gets through to her and gets her to understand that Tony being a broken man is not her problem or her responsibility and she can just let him be broken and distance herself completely from it.
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Post by fia on Nov 16, 2020 22:14:14 GMT
I think an important bit of information we're missing about Tony and Annie is what they did together while Surma was largely bedridden. Annie can't have left the hospital often if they "couldn't bear to be apart," but she did plenty of exploring without her mother, and we must assume someone fed her – we know Tony cooks. I just always remember this page from Microsat 5 –– it's a tiny detail, but Tony taught her martial arts, which she uses very naturally early on in the comics. Generally that takes years of practice. He fixed her leg when it was sprained. It was Annie's mom that wanted her at GC, she says; perhaps her father acquiesced because he knew he wouldn't be a great single parent? EDIT to add: Annie also clearly knows a thing or two about gross surgical procedures – probably also Tony. It's obvious that in spite of all of Annie's pretending to be normal, her father's whereabouts were incredibly important to her, and she was so anxious to hear from him that she skipped at least one summer to wait for him to contact her and isn't very excited to travel with the Donlans the next summer, presumably because what she really wants is to see her dad again. In fact, what initially triggers her fight with Renard that summer is him dissing her dad. We have every reason to believe Surma was telling the truth about Tony loving her – I should think! If anything, at first Annie thought her father left her because he didn't love her or blamed her for Surma's death, but she learned from spying on Tony with Donald and the blinker stone that Tony really blamed himself for Surma's death, not Annie. Being absurdly quiet and introverted might be a deep character flaw, but Tony is supportive of Annie, he listens to her, cares about her safety, and trusts her enough to let her be independent and even self-actualized. Given that he also trained her in martial arts, it's not like he was a completely neglectful father when she was a child. ((My father didn't even help me with my homework, never took me anywhere until high school, and generally just watched me grow up, but didn't actually participate in my growing up. My mom wouldn't even let him bathe me as a baby because she was afraid he'd be inattentive and let me injure myself, by her own account. Granted, he never abandoned me for 3 years at a boarding school, but in spite of his character flaws I know he loves me. For example, he supported my education financially and affirmatively just as much as he did my older brother, and treated us almost exactly the same, never said no when I wanted to learn or do something new, and we're in a society that doesn't do that for girls)). So, I'm inclined to give Tony the benefit of the doubt. He was very neglectful the three years before coming back to GC –– I can't justify it –– but there was one mitigating circumstance, which was his immense loss in losing his wife. We have no evidence that he has anyone else in the world besides Surma, Annie, and Donald; we don't know what his own parents were like. Perhaps the comic will reveal him to be an asshole, but I suspect that instead we'll keep finding out a bit more about what Tony's deep character flaws are due to. |
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novia
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Post by novia on Nov 16, 2020 23:08:46 GMT
And now I can’t hold anything against Tony because he HAS shown humanity, he has shown the ability to love, and he has shown the desire to improve. irl abusers are humans with humanity and this same attitude is what makes so many people excuse their behavior. All the serial killers, domestic abusers, child abusers of the world are humans with humanity and they tell jokes and show the desire to improve and so on. I do not think this is what's going on with Tony, I'm still convinced that there's something supernatural (NOT necessarily etheric) going on with his social limitations. Just a friendly reminder to not excuse the bad behavior of people because they are your friends. |
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Post by Draxiss on Nov 17, 2020 0:24:23 GMT
There's something about this particular page that unsettles me that I can't quite articulate.
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Post by taothegreat on Nov 17, 2020 0:38:40 GMT
As a child of two parents who came from abusive households, I would say that Tony's behaviour feels more like the actions of my parents, who were deeply traumatized adults who had built bad habits as a coping mechanism and have spent much of their lives trying to overcome them, rather than my parents' parents, who were also deeply traumatized but made no efforts to correct themselves.
Sometimes my parents' actions would definitely qualify as abuse, especially when they were younger. However, year by year they got better at managing their trauma and our relationships grew warmer. In particular, my father and I struggled to connect for years, and in the end what brought us together was working together when I was an older teen and adult. Sometimes it takes a lot of time, and a lot of trying. It's a shame that kids have to carry such a burden in those kind of relationships. It's not fair. But I don't regret for a second spending my time pushing my parents to be better. It was good for all of us. Sometimes I got angry about having so much responsibility for fixing things that weren't my fault, but mostly I was just overjoyed by every little breakthrough, much like Annie is here. And it was worth it because of where we ended up. We now have a very happy, healthy, open relationship. That's not the story for everyone, but it was mine.
It doesn't excuse anything but sometimes parents are processing grief and trauma and that causes them to fail to be the parents they should be for a while - maybe even a long time. But if they care, and they're trying, and the child feels safe, it's better for the child to stay with them and work on setting those boundaries together. We don't always get the parents we need, and you don't even have to be abused for your parents to fail to meet your emotional needs, but things can get better with communication and effort.
It's hard to watch but it's clear to me that Tony is trying, even if his progress is agonizingly slow. The most important thing is that he will keep her safe and fed, and Annie wants to be with him. I think it's good that she is.
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Post by AluK on Nov 17, 2020 10:42:48 GMT
Then three pages of Jimmy Jims and Idra.
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 17, 2020 11:56:36 GMT
I really struggle with this part of the story. I like Tom's writing a lot generally and of course I don't need to agree with Tom and/or the characters in Tom's stories to enjoy his writing, but I guess as an adult with two parents who genuinely tried all my life to be good parents, the sort of pathetic non-effort Tony makes toward Annie and the utterly shitty way he sometimes treats her just strikes me as a staggering level of unrecognized abuse. Sure, abusive people exist but I also don't really get why other people also take a "I guess this is fine" approach, like Kat and Kat's mom and dad are basically good people who love Annie. Why would they not say "well I'm really sorry an eyeless demon girl blew off your hand and you had a sad life but you are super clearly an unfit father so so the Annies will be living with us until you dig yourself out of your personal endless self-pity pit." Well, at least there is someone who calls it out in-story (Renard did, and Kat did as well, until she began working together with Tony and somehow forgot all the reasons she had for hating him before). As I do not tire to repeat, all the other unhealthy relationships in this comic are simply accepted. Regarding Kat's parents, as kind as they are they seem to have a total "let's-just do-them-what-they-want-what's-the-worst-that-could-happen" approach towards kids outside of class, and it seems this type of parenting is supported by the Court. Remember they seemingly also had no problem leaving their 15(?)-year-old daughter behind in a destroyed war zone when she said she wanted to. Of course I also realize that this is partly driven by the meta reason that this is a comic about Annie and Kat, not about Anja and Donald, so we can't just have the latter two solve all the problems. |
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 17, 2020 11:57:40 GMT
Hmmm... we're reading a chapter called "Behind it all". Which will be the first chapter of the next book, i.e. prime time to introduce something new, like a second Antimony or the return of her father. Being tired, I read that as you predicting that in this chapter a second Antimony's father would return... |
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Post by wies on Nov 17, 2020 12:13:04 GMT
Hmmm... we're reading a chapter called "Behind it all". Which will be the first chapter of the next book, i.e. prime time to introduce something new, like a second Antimony or the return of her father. Being tired, I read that as you predicting that in this chapter a second Antimony's father would return... Turns out Antimony was not the only one Loup shifted. |
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