[2313] and this got me thinking

[arf]

Start with the making of the bird.

[Eily]

(It seems like the timeline of the thread creation was split, but unlike the Annies they were dated, so I took the oldest one, even if by 2 seconds only).

Looks like Kat has been reading the forum theories, but doesn't quite buy them yet.

[imaginaryfriend]

I wonder if one or more Antimonies will become the correct one for this timeline once Kat does send Tocs back into the past to save her.

Kinda thinking the answer is "yes."

[arf]

The suspicion is that the tic tocs are *one* tic toc, sent back in a repeated loop, possibly until Jeanne took a swipe.
(and why *did* Jeanne merely 'pink' Annie's cheek? And has this anything to do with Coyote's Plan?)

[madjack]

Jun 3, 2020 7:11:50 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I wonder if one or more Antimonies will become the correct one for this timeline once Kat does send Tocs back into the past to save her.

Kinda thinking the answer is "yes."

It might depend on how the timeline split works, if it's a 'Back to the Future' style split then sending the tictocs back in one timeline will be enough to save her in both/all, but if Loup caused a whole other alternate universe to occur then there is going to be at least 2 Annies to save in separate ones...

[pyradonis]

Jun 3, 2020 7:11:50 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I wonder if one or more Antimonies will become the correct one for this timeline once Kat does send Tocs back into the past to save her.

Kinda thinking the answer is "yes."

Loup split the timeline long after Annie fell from the bridge, why would Kat sending the Tic-toc back make one Annie the "correct one"? There is only one Annie to save.

[dramastix]

I know we've all been speculating along these lines for days now (years, really), but it still gives me shivers to see the characters in-comic realize what's happening.

Also, I think Daedalus has cookies with interest banked away.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 3, 2020 7:34:21 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 3, 2020 7:11:50 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I wonder if one or more Antimonies will become the correct one for this timeline once Kat does send Tocs back into the past to save her.

Kinda thinking the answer is "yes."

Loup split the timeline long after Annie fell from the bridge, why would Kat sending the Tic-toc back make one Annie the "correct one"? There is only one Annie to save.

Kat sending the Toc(s) back to save Antimony would resolve the paradox. Instead of resolve the paradox, I should say supply the cause for the past effect. It's still a paradox.

Should also add: Right now, it seems reasonable to believe the Antimony who fell still hasn't been saved.

[Kuraimizu]

It's good to see that she isn't going to try to get rid of the Annies, to get "her" Annie back
that hopefully means that we get to keep both of them in the story.
as I like seeing Annie have a sister now. and they work well together.

And with Kat making the Bird, now she needs to make time Travel and maybe the original Robots.
Time to give a Science Lesson

---

with time travel you have only 3 possibilities 1D Time, 2D/3D Time, and 4D Time.
1. no quantum effects, Time-Travel only to the past, arrival in past would cause
a temporal incursion that would result in time afterwards being rewritten.
If you received a message or media from the future, it would mean the future has already been written,
or that the message/media would cause events leading to the creation of the future it depicts,
meaning nobody would have freewill after the message is received
or it would also cause a temporal incursion rewriting the future.

2/3. Quantum effects noticeable, entire multiverse is just an ocean of quantum wave-functions,
where wave-functions interact and overlap, the material world condenses out of space-time
as the wave-functions collapse, either from interactions of different wave-functions,
or by observations from the material world. 2D and 3D Time-Travel doesn't cause time to be rewritten,
a temporal incursion results in the spawning, splitting, feathering and fractalization of timelines.
Paradoxical realities can spawn when the wave-functions caused by time-travel interact with alternate branches of the timeline.
Free agency exists, and actions, and wave-function interactions both create a nearly infinite multiverse.

4. Quantum effects not noticeable, Infinite Quantum verse, multiple parts of the timeline naturally
spawn, split, feather, and fractalize, without the need of newer big bangs or artificially caused time-travel.
Every possible probability exists, along infinite timelines.
Free agency still exists, but for every action, alternate verisons of yourself also choose the other probabilities.
Or you could argue that your actions force the other versions to choose other options.
Or that their actions force you to choose the path you did, because the other timelines were already occupied.
You could be walking down the street, and suddenly walk out of a wormhole 1000 years into the past or future.
Of course another version of you never left the present, he's still walking down the street on the way to work,
never knowing another version of himself will never get to see his family ever again.

given that we can observe Quantum effects in the laboratory, such as the quantum twin slit light and electron physics test,
that proves that we live in a universe with 2 or 3 dimensions of time, and that the universe is not limited
to a single dimension of time, and that the universe does not have more than 3 temporal dimensions.
meaning we live in a universe with a total of 5 or 6 dimensions of space and time, no more, and no less.

----

Time-travel in 2d or 3d temporal dimensions would never endanger the original timeline.
As any time you try to leave or enter a timeline you would cause the timeline to split.
A prime reality where the time-travel didn't occur and a secondary timeline where the time-travel does occur.
Because of this time-travel would be perfect for historians to study the past, without worrying about altering the future.

As a result there would never be a rule against time-travel, because you can't change the past.
You can only spawn a new timeline as it splits off the prime timeline. And you could use your own
wave-function temporal signature as a map to return to your original timeline. Though you'd actually be returning
to a Tertiary branch Two splits after your original departure. Leaving the Secondary branch where
you time travelled to the past, but never returned to the future. Meaning your family and friends
would never see you again, as you just ceased to exist.

It's at this point things get complicated, because unless you have a way to target a single timeline,
anytime you try to time-travel, a clone of you will appear in every timeline that has the same time and date,
as the one you were hoping to visit. Sure you want to go and visit a date in the history of your timeline,
but lots of parallel timelines have the same time and date. sure you will end up in the past exactly where you want,
But there's also a high probability that you end up in all the adjacent realities as well.
Sure you could end up in our 1970's populated with hippies, but there might be a version of you that suddenly
finds himself in a reality where Hitler's Nazi's won World War 2. Or an alternate reality where the dinosaurs never went extinct,
and humans had to evolve alongside giant reptiles, instead of, or including woolly mammoths.

A time machine isn't like a plane that you can hire a pilot to test for you. They would only send a scientist
or engineer that actually built the time machine, or was taught how to build one.
They would have to understand how it worked well enough to be able to repair it, or rebuild it from scratch, if something went wrong.
Because we're talking about time-travelling, trying to pinpoint a time and location on a planetary rock,
that includes a molten mantle, and at one time was mostly or completely molten on the surface.
That planet is flying around a star, at very fast speeds, that star is also going at very fast speeds around the galaxy.
Not to forget to mention that our star isn't from the milky way, our star was captured from the sagittarius satellite galaxy,
that orbits the milky way at very fast speeds. So at some time in the past our star was in orbit around the sagittarius satellite galaxy,
where the orbit was likely a lot faster than our current orbit around the milkyway.
And the milky is flying through space away from the center of the universe.

If you went even a second backwards in time you'd be lucky if you didn't find yourself in the center of the planet,
or crashing onto the moon, or falling into the sun, depending on the time of year, and your vector of momentum.
Time-travel into the past or future doesn't just mean crossing across time. We're talking about having to track
a planet, star, Galaxy, and Dwarf Galaxy across Light-years, if not Light-Milleniums of distance
depending how far in time you wanted to travel.

---

Hopefully this helps give some ideas, for anyone wanting to talk about time travel
and theorize how time travel, without the help of Loup or Coyote,
might work as Kat tries to do it with machine and Magic.

[migrantworker]

Heh, Kat inisiting that sending the Tictoc back in time is impossible looks rather like a lady that protests too much.

But yeah. There will be severe consequences if she fails to do exactly that. It's a heavy responsibility to be thrust upon a teenager.

[arf]

Jun 3, 2020 8:17:24 GMT migrantworker said:

Heh, Kat inisiting that sending the Tictoc back in time is impossible looks rather like a lady that protests too much.

But yeah. There will be severe consequences if she fails to do exactly that. It's a heavy responsibility to be thrust upon a teenager.

Which would probably explain Paz's attitude. I don't think "chronic hysteris" is in her vocabulary.

[lemarc]

Jun 3, 2020 8:11:02 GMT Kuraimizu said:

That planet is flying around a star, at very fast speeds, that star is also going at very fast speeds around the galaxy.
Not to forget to mention that our star isn't from the milky way, our star was captured from the sagittarius satellite galaxy,
that orbits the milky way at very fast speeds. So at some time in the past our star was in orbit around the sagittarius satellite galaxy,
where the orbit was likely a lot faster than our current orbit around the milkyway.
And the milky is flying through space away from the center of the universe.

If you went even a second backwards in time you'd be lucky if you didn't find yourself in the center of the planet,
or crashing onto the moon, or falling into the sun, depending on the time of year, and your vector of momentum.
Time-travel into the past or future doesn't just mean crossing across time. We're talking about having to track
a planet, star, Galaxy, and Dwarf Galaxy across Light-years, if not Light-Milleniums of distance
depending how far in time you wanted to travel.

I'm travelling forward in time constantly, yet I remain stationary relative to the Earth. I can imagine a time machine mucking with my inertial reference frame, but what does the relative velocity of stars and galaxies have to do with it?

[arcuna]

Jun 3, 2020 9:34:43 GMT lemarc said:

I'm travelling forward in time constantly, yet I remain stationary relative to the Earth. I can imagine a time machine mucking with my inertial reference frame, but what does the relative velocity of stars and galaxies have to do with it?

I think the point is that you're constantly being accelerated by the Earth as it drags you along its hurling path. The stars and galaxy are relevant because the Earth, on average, is following the trajectory of the Sun, which, on average, follows the Milky Way's trajectory, etc. If your hypothetical time travel device displaces you in time but not in space, you won't end up on Earth because the Earth is actually moving quite fast, and it never really stays in the same place in space.

Of course, this comic isn't really about that, so probably Kat's method of time travel will conveniently keep the Tic Tocs on Earth.

[TBeholder]

So this was yet another Coyote's trick.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 3, 2020 9:34:43 GMT lemarc said:

Jun 3, 2020 8:11:02 GMT Kuraimizu said:

That planet is flying around a star, at very fast speeds, that star is also going at very fast speeds around the galaxy.
Not to forget to mention that our star isn't from the milky way, our star was captured from the sagittarius satellite galaxy,
that orbits the milky way at very fast speeds. So at some time in the past our star was in orbit around the sagittarius satellite galaxy,
where the orbit was likely a lot faster than our current orbit around the milkyway.
And the milky is flying through space away from the center of the universe.

If you went even a second backwards in time you'd be lucky if you didn't find yourself in the center of the planet,
or crashing onto the moon, or falling into the sun, depending on the time of year, and your vector of momentum.
Time-travel into the past or future doesn't just mean crossing across time. We're talking about having to track
a planet, star, Galaxy, and Dwarf Galaxy across Light-years, if not Light-Milleniums of distance
depending how far in time you wanted to travel.

I'm travelling forward in time constantly, yet I remain stationary relative to the Earth. I can imagine a time machine mucking with my inertial reference frame, but what does the relative velocity of stars and galaxies have to do with it?

It's less about relative velocity and more targeting the arrival location but also it's about the forces that close or very distant bodies may exert, I believe.

Jun 3, 2020 9:50:28 GMT TBeholder said:

So this was yet another Coyote's trick.

It is sort of odd that Coyote would remark on Antimony's cheek-scar but not mention that she was the subject of a temporal paradox. I guess we're going to have to go back through the comic and reread all Coyote dialogue.

[Alkazar]

I wonder if we get to see the world/timeline in which Annie died when she fell off the bridge. It can't be a nice place. I think the Kat there worked with all the obsession she could muster to undo the disaster. This resulted in the end in the world/timeline we know.

(I'm writing "world/timeline" because I'm not thinking that time travel is the only possible origin for the paradox. The court is a focus of technological and magical might. It could also be that time is there partially a question of space. You could walk into the next room and it would be a few years ago.)

[wies]

Jun 3, 2020 8:11:02 GMT Kuraimizu said:

It's at this point things get complicated, because unless you have a way to target a single timeline,
anytime you try to time-travel, a clone of you will appear in every timeline that has the same time and date,
as the one you were hoping to visit. Sure you want to go and visit a date in the history of your timeline,
but lots of parallel timelines have the same time and date. sure you will end up in the past exactly where you want,
But there's also a high probability that you end up in all the adjacent realities as well.
Sure you could end up in our 1970's populated with hippies, but there might be a version of you that suddenly
finds himself in a reality where Hitler's Nazi's won World War 2. Or an alternate reality where the dinosaurs never went extinct,
and humans had to evolve alongside giant reptiles, instead of, or including woolly mammoths.

That was both a great and interesting explanation of timetravel, but I don't fully follow how clones of me would appear in all timelines that contain the same time and date.

[wies]

As to my own reaction to this comic: it is the same as dramastix's. It feels strange to see the characters realizing something we all have discussed for several pages.

And now this huge mystery is revealed, I wonder what the other consequences than time travel will be? What turns will the story take?

I feel like this is kinda the same situation as the first pages of chapter 66, where we just learned how deep coyote's manipulation of ysengrin went before all hell broke loose.

[arkadi]

Poor Kat: she was all bent on fixing a temporal paradox and now she realizes she needs to cause one if she doesn't want to lose her best friend ^^ 

I'm really excited to see how Tom will deal with this situation: my current guess is that this particular paradox will turn out to be a stable loop, and probably not a big deal; after all, the arbiter guy didn't seem to be very concerned about it.

[arcuna]

Jun 3, 2020 11:22:05 GMT arkadi said:

I'm really excited to see how Tom will deal with this situation: my current guess is that this particular paradox will turn out to be a stable loop, and probably not a big deal; after all, the arbiter guy didn't seem to be very concerned about it.

To be fair, it really isn't their department. I can imagine Temporal Affairs getting involved sooner rather than later, though...

[mochakimono]

Excellent timing for the latest Retrospective. I only just watched that video, and it refreshed my memory of when the initial seed of doubt was planted by the Arbiter. Just in time to see that finally come to fruition here.

[netherdan]

Jun 3, 2020 11:50:35 GMT arcuna said:

Jun 3, 2020 11:22:05 GMT arkadi said:

I'm really excited to see how Tom will deal with this situation: my current guess is that this particular paradox will turn out to be a stable loop, and probably not a big deal; after all, the arbiter guy didn't seem to be very concerned about it.

To be fair, it really isn't their department. I can imagine Temporal Affairs getting involved sooner rather than later, though...

Or later rather than sooner, if you're a 3 space 1 time dimensional being

[todd]

Jun 3, 2020 11:22:05 GMT arkadi said:

I'm really excited to see how Tom will deal with this situation: my current guess is that this particular paradox will turn out to be a stable loop, and probably not a big deal; after all, the arbiter guy didn't seem to be very concerned about it.

I'm hoping for the "stable loop" approach; I prefer the kind of time travel where "time travelers don't/can't change history because they were already there" is the rule. (And it'll guard against the temptation to end the story by Annie going back in time to either prevent the union of the fire elemental and human, thus erasing herself from existence, or b) prevent the Court from being founded, thus erasing it from existence.)

[Ahakarin]

Eh, so she builds the Clockitoo... but... why does SHE have to be the one to send it back in time? With the plethora of deific shenanigans going on from various sources, it could just randomly get sucked into some convenient timehole, get copy-pasted to multiple points (or a single point), and there you have your flock of tic-tocks ready to go.

My suggestion, though, since we know the source of the birds, would be to go out and reclaim some of them for research purposes. Did Kat go mad in her elder years and build a zillion of these? Or is it literally the exact same bird? And can we tell how old they are? Meaning, were they all sent back to one point, or did they get scattered throughout the years/centuries and wait for the coming of Anne?

If she can get over her "NO, IMPOSSIBLE!!!" fixation, there's legitimate research to be done here.

That's not to dismiss "okay, how do we Doc Brown this bird?" though, but... maybe focus on the more accessible points to look into first.



Hm... that said, maybe this is what convinces Loup to off himself...

[csj]

Time travel could well be a red herring if due to retroactive robodeity status, the birds were always there from the beginning

[ctso74]

If you say so, Kat, but...
My favorite "time travel" story is still Thrice Upon a Time. Terribly dated, but still and interesting read.
The problem with speculating about GC time travel, is that magic exists. You could do a lot of "hand waving" and logic jumping with the Ether.

[soriethiale]

Well, I guess that explains why Kat burst into tears earlier :/

I've only been around since Ch45, so not as long as most of you, but I agree with dramastix... chilling that this is finally showing up in-comic.

[Polyhymnia]

Gunnerkrigg Court: elevating the inciting incident to a whole new level.

[Gemini Jim]

I'm starting to think that the "Two Annie" problem is completely separate from the "Time Traveling Tic Toc" problem.



In other words, the Annie problem doesn't involve time travel; Loup created two Annies because he needed two Annies for his plan, which involves returning that wretched water. With two Annies, he can blackmail them into doing what he wants. The two Annies were created exactly when he needed them to be created.



The time travel problem is basically a stable time loop with some bootstrapping going on. Kat's right, she is going to have to send the Tic Toc back; and the Tic Toc will save Annie's life. But it won't create two Annies.


Usually in time travel stories, if you have two copies of a person, one of the two is "from the future" and should know stuff that the other one doesn't. We haven't seen any of that yet.

[arkadi]

Jun 3, 2020 11:50:35 GMT arcuna said:

Jun 3, 2020 11:22:05 GMT arkadi said:

I'm really excited to see how Tom will deal with this situation: my current guess is that this particular paradox will turn out to be a stable loop, and probably not a big deal; after all, the arbiter guy didn't seem to be very concerned about it.

To be fair, it really isn't their department. I can imagine Temporal Affairs getting involved sooner rather than later, though...

Temporal affairs don't get involved "sooner", nor "later": they get involved precisely when they mean to